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[Twolanerider]

Was only recently pointed toward this forum and am already incredibly pleased I was.  Had thought I'd collected most of the info in print on the SEEGs and the little available from HD's website and other published notices.  Then I found all of you.  Reading here has been like a fuel injected Nerdvana  But I digress.....

Have coming a red 05 SEEG.  It's still a couple of months away (more or less).   Close enough, in any case, to begin doing some basic preparations for.  One thing I've tried to answer and have read conflicting information on is exactly what is there "out of the box."  I'm not speaking so much to the doo-dads, trinkets, and other (often) external accessories but to the powerplant itself or other primary systems.  For lack of a better way to put it just how "Screamin' Eagle" is the SE 103 engine when the bike is uncrated?  Does it, for example, already have the SE high flow breather/Stage I kit?  Have read both "yes" and "no" on this and other things.  

The details are just a bit murky in the public media and from some of HD's own literature so I'm really wondering precisely what is there to begin with.  It's not efficient to plan or purchase for "what's next" when I can't find out for sure what's there at the beginning.  And, since I find I'm commonly a wee bit impatient, it seemed prudent to ask those that have already been there and done that.

Another question on the same general topic would be, given what is there "out of the box" what have proved to be the most common effective steps to further wake up the engine.  I'm honestly not interested in cracking the engine back open.  So internal mods are beyond my interest (unless one is talking something relatively simple like a cam swap or something of that ilk).  But, basically, I'm wondering how different are these 103's in their needs relative from stock that are the 88s.  Are the stock exhaust and intake systems still handicaps, and if so how much?  Are there any differences in the factory setup of the 103s here that would recommend for or against things that have proved effective on the 88s?  That kind of thing is what I'm really concerned about at this point.

I understand that setup is based on need or riding style and we're all different.  So here's "me."  I don't do a lot of "short hops" across town.  Of course I ride in town and will run errands or do anything else on the bike that I might do in other forms of transportation.  But I set my bike up for travel.  I enjoy the longer trips.  Whether it be as much as can be squeezed in to a weekend or cruising vacations, that's what the bike is for.  My 2000 RKC got home last month from a five week trip that covered just under 17,000 miles and it's got about 85,000 on it all tolled; if that kind of info helps someone suggest options for these bikes.  I ask because I simply have no experience with the stroker setup and would like to hear from those that do.

Thanks Gents,
Don

[JCZ]

Don, in it's stock position the 103" will out perform the average 95" out there.  There are some 95" bikes that will produce greater numbers, thow.  The air cleaner is a "Screamin Eagle" air cleaner that flows a little more air that the stock HD air cleaner however, it's not the Screamin Eagle High Flow Air Cleaner (crossed flags item) that is generally referred to.

If you're not wanting to open the motor up but want a little more out of your bike and want to keep the reliability, you might just consider the Screamin Eagle High Flow Air Cleaner, aftermarket performance exhaust of your choice and the HD Race Tuner and a good dyno tune.  You should be quite pleased with the performance and you get to keep the reliability of the motor.

[110tHunDer]

Don, first of all, welcome to the site and congrats on your future purchase!  [smiley=beerchug.gif]
 
Next, I totally agree with everything JC said.  These bikes respond very well to the regular Stage I Screamin' Eagle air cleaner/filter and non-stock pipes.  While the touring mufflers that come on the bike are purported to give increased performance over the regular stock Electra Glide mufflers, they are no match for either the one-piece or two-piece SE performance mufflers.  You'll get much better performance switching to either one of those or another after-market brand.  Likewise, the air cleaner setup that comes on the SEEGs does have a couple more air inlets cut into it in than the stock Electra Glide airbox, but once again, the SE Stage I air cleaner will do wonders.  
 
Somewhere on here (I tried to find it, but couldn't [smiley=nixweiss.gif]) is a dyno thread with several posts of dyno sheets.  If you can find it, you should be able to get an idea from that what kind of mods make what power.  Mine, for example, has the Stage I air cleaner, SE one-piece pipes, and the standard 103 Stage I download (no custom mapping) from the SE Race Tuner and it's producing just under 91 rear wheel horsepower and just over 98 ft.-lbs. of torque.  Not bad for an otherwise stock motor.  (Keep in mind H-D's claim of "over 100 ft./lbs. of torque" on the stock bike is at the crank.)  I'm sure I could get a few more hp and torque with a custom map and if I ever run onto someone I'd trust enough to give it a whirl, I might.  But for now, it runs better than the 88" in my '02 EG ever dreamed of running and I haven't done a thing to sacrifice long-term reliability, like I feel some of the guys getting those numbers out of their 95" builds have.

[Twolanerider]

JCZ and 103; Thanks for the pointers so far.  That kind of experienced based guidance is precisely what I was hoping for (and will gladly read all that yet comes).  I've read several posts around the forum here wherein people are mentioning the "Race Tuner."  Is that the Screamin Eagle EFI...... thing I've seen on the wall at the dealership?

If so does anyone have comparison based experience using it and a Power Commander?  My old Road King has the serial version of a  Power Commander (PCII) and with it I was able to make a surprising amount of difference after adding only the Stage I kit, Samson dual pipes, White Bros E. Series mufflers and a trip to the local dyno guy.  I'm actually quite fortunate in that the "local dyno guy" about two miles from my home is a really good guy named John Golden (Rolling Thunder Dyno).  You've likely seen him at rally sites somewhere around the country.

I realize the Power Commander series has been around a few years now and I did a fair amount of homework "last time."  But there are several new tools for the same work since the last time I really went through a similar exercise so it is homework time again.  Obviously the choice will depend a lot on which tuning tool John recommends or is most comfortable with as he'll end up dialing things in after I've farted with it until I'm blue in the face and then let him wring the final few hp and tq numbers out of it.  But I'm certainly interested in the differences in both use, controllability, and type of installation required on the various tools of this type currently making up the market.

In looking at both the factory published dyno sheets and the several I've run in to so far around the site here one thing has troubled me a little.  One sees a lot of good torque numbers but they're too often too high up the RPM climb to really do you much good out on the highway.  Is that a common antribute of the strokers?  From the limited research done so far it looks as if one of the Wood cams is perhaps the best simple solution here but, again, that 's not based on any particular experience.  And we all know that "academic fact" and the real world simply don't accomplish the same level of burn out when you twist the throttle.

Thanks again and (please !) continue the advice to the new guy,

Don

[110tHunDer]

Don, last question first: Here's my dyno sheet comparing my SEEG with the mods mentioned above to my TC88 '02 EG Classic which had the exact same mods.  You'll notice the torque peak on the SEEG (green) is about 750 rpm higher than the TC88 (stock cams in both) and I could feel that in the way the bike ran (likes to rev!) the moment after I passed the break-in period and got to hammer it for the first time.  But does this mean the SEEG doesn't like to run out on the highway?  NO!, NO!, and NO!  And the reason is it's making more torque throughout the entire range (as show on the dyno curves) than the 88" bike did, so it feels so much stronger at all times.

As far as the Race Tuner, I doubt that at this time you'll find as many guys who are as comfortable with them as the Power Commander, just because they haven't been around as long, but you will find more adjustability with the Race Tuner vs. the Power Commander.  Plus, I understand the Power Commander has to be spliced into the bike's wiring harness unlike the Race Tuner that you hook up, burn your changes into the ECM, and disconnect which makes for a cleaner, more reliable setup.

Here is a site where you can download the User's Manual for the H-D Race Tuner.  Maybe the information in there can help you make up your minde which way to go: http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/HDtechtips/racetuner.pdf

[Twolanerider]

103,
Thanks very much for the comparison dyno sheet to look at.  My 2000 Road King's modifications are similar to what you've done (Samson pipes, White Bro's mufflers, Stage I and air cleaner and the Power Commander with it's last setup by the dyno guy) and our numbers are comparable.  When the dyno guy got done with it it turned out at 70.2 max hp and 81.4 max tq on an 89 degree day with about 75% humidity (Missouri weather!).  But what's really nice is that it's torque band stays between 75 and 80 from about 2750 all the way to 4250 RPM, right where you cruise and wherefrom you pass that big smelly truck in front of you.

When I was commenting on the torque curve of the 103 seeming to be at it's strongest at RPM outside the cruising range and being a little disappointed in that fact I should have gone on to explain that I was very much looking forward to the fact that at the 103's worst it's still going to be a lot stronger than anything I've had.  So it's not really so much a complaint as it is a desire to have everything perfect, right where I want it, with a 22 year old cheerleader on the back seat.  I think it's the nature of these damn things that they make us want a little more from them than we ever have at the moment.  Perhaps that's why the P&A branch is so profitable......

Y'know, perhaps I should not have joined the forum here after all.  The wait for the bike was going to seem far less interminable if I hadn't started talking about it so damned much !

The Power Commander is different than you described at least in it's installation.  I've installed mine and done the install for four other friends (who were uncomfortable doing it themselves but thought a six-pack was cheaper labor than they could get at the dealership).  All were direct plug in affairs without the splicing you described.  I've seen a unit sold by Techlusion and Revtech (same unit, just sold under a different name from each) that is as you describe.  Though the latest model of the unit from Techlusion is also now being advertised as a plug in unit right out of the box.

I'm curious about something you described of the Race Tuner and will definitely look at that link you provided (thanks again for that).  No hardware stays on the bike?  So it just plugs on to a diagnostic port, maps to taste, and then comes out?  I do like the idea of not having to add hardware.  My Power Commander has never given me a moment's problem but that doesn't mean that I've still not given a second thought to the idea that it's just one more piece of electronics plugged in the middle of the system that might crap out someday.  I'm a big fan of keeping things as simple as I can.

Anyway, thanks again.  I just got home from a nice little dinner ride this evening but have been told I have chores that must be tended to.

Don

[110tHunDer]

. . . I'm curious about something you described of the Race Tuner and will definitely look at that link you provided (thanks again for that).

[mfgreen]

Hi Don,

I found an old thread that may contain some of the info you are looking for as well as some that is beyond what you are planning........but it all seems to flow together.

You wrote:

"So internal mods are beyond my interest (unless one is talking something relatively simple like a cam swap or something of that ilk).  So internal mods are beyond my interest (unless one is talking something relatively simple like a cam swap or something of that ilk).  So internal mods are beyond my interest (unless one is talking something relatively simple like a cam swap or something of that ilk).  So internal mods are beyond my interest (unless one is talking something relatively simple like a cam swap or something of that ilk).  So internal mods are beyond my interest (unless one is talking something relatively simple like a cam swap or something of that ilk)."
http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=g1;action=display;num=1029202735
http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=cvo_gen;action=display;num=1057535524
http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=CVO_TC;action=display;num=1057535659
http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=cvo_gen;action=display;num=1057535524
http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=CVO_TC;action=display;num=1057535610

Hope it helps,
Mike

[JCZ]

JCZ and 103; Thanks for the pointers so far.

[Twolanerider]

Thanks JCZ.  In fat that issue of American Rider is currently resting next to the camode and will likely begin to be read later this evening.  Hadn't looked at enough yet to even realize it was going to be an issue on point.  Thanks for the heads up.

Don

[Tony - www.1700cc.co.uk]

Thanks JCZ.

[Tony - www.1700cc.co.uk]

Just playing the devil's advocate but ...........

I was thinking that adding a HD flash to get approximate tuning with the power commander so that the local dyno man can use the PCIII for perfection. This would add a sort of one way resilience lest the PCIII packs in. I mean with it sitting in line you could theoretically unplug for a roadside repair ............... in case your mobile phone broke down and you couldn't call the AA!

OK, I know that I am unqualified as I am still on 02 Ultra!

[Twolanerider]

I know what you mean about the wait. My yellow doesn't arrive until Feb/March 05.

Feb/March ?  Ouch.  But they're doing the yellow ones last.  I got (hopefully) great news today if it remains accurate.  Dealer was saying my red one would be here late Ocbober-ish (so early November likely by the time a shipper got a load).  Dealer called this morning to tell me that it "will" arrive late September.  Just got a whole extra month of the best riding time of the year hereabouts !!  I'm a happy camper  [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

[Twolanerider]

Just playing the devil's advocate but ...........

I was thinking that adding a HD flash to get approximate tuning with the power commander so that the local dyno man can use the PCIII for perfection.

I'd had the same thought and even discussed it with the local dyno guy (I'm fortunate that there's a great dyno guy right here in town).  He wouldn't commit either way, but was obviously less than impressed with the idea.  So I never did.....  Still "seems" like a good idea though!

Don

[JCZ]

Twolane.......bringing back memories............. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]