Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[grc]

After living in 2 different states, and being around HD's and the people who own them for the last 40 years, I know a lot of riders, several who have had motor problems (mostly 110") in the last 5 years. Those with ESP's and modifications done to the engine such as cams and lifters had no problem getting coverage for bore/piston issues, valve guide/valve seal failure etc. If it was so prevalent here and on the other boards, and word of mouth many including myself would have passed on the ESP's. The local dealer where I currently reside is well aware of the aftermarket fixes that make these bikes more reliable and less of headache for them, and appreciate the added money spent after the purchase, and have no problem honoring the ESP.

I don't think you get the point sir.  It isn't the dealers that have the final say, it is CNA.  In other words, CNA determines whether or not the repair will be paid for by CNA.  Yes, a dealership may know that your engine has been modified and doesn't comply with the requirements of the ESP, but still go ahead and make a repair and submit a claim.  If CNA doesn't question it, or insist on inspecting the bike prior to the repair, then the customer gets his $50 repair and the dealer gets paid by CNA.  And that is what has been happening for many years, up until recently.  But CNA, and Harley in the case of the factory warranty, have the right to require the dealer to get prior approval if they desire to do so.  Certain high cost repairs might be put on the prior approval required list for all dealers, for instance.  Or if a particular dealership has a higher than average number of claims or higher than average cost of repairs, CNA can and does put that dealership or repair shop on "prior approval required" status.  In other words, the shop has to get permission first, and allow CNA the opportunity to inspect the bike if they want to do so.  The factory warranty is usually handled the same way.  Not every claim has to be handled this way, because it wouldn't be feasible to have that many reps running around inspecting bikes and approving repairs.  It is a selective process, usually based on statistical criteria.

In other words, some people with modified engines still slide by and get warranty or ESP repairs covered.  But that isn't because they are entitled to those free repairs, it's because they basically got lucky.  There are many examples of people who in fact have been denied coverage, and that number has grown a great deal in recent years.  Just because you don't know any of those people personally doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Jerry

[Ridgerunr]

I get your point about the dealer not having the final word, but how the claim is filed has a lot to do with it. Yea there are a few dealers who are hard assed and don't want to service after the sale but they are the minority. I certainly never alluded to
 " people with modified engines are entitled to those free repairs",
but if a dealer is trying to replace a 117" motor they did then yea a red flag goes up. But if a guy had the dealer install bolt in cams and a pipe and the valve guides are loose the cam/pipe did not contribute to the failure, and if the dealer submits accordingly then there shouldn't be a problem. I'm betting 90% of owners change pipes. If CNA won't honor coverage for my front end because I did a pipe change I'll do my best to steer folks away from them. With the way rumors spread around HOG chapters, LOL, social media etc. etc. CNA should be hurting big time by next year.

[ultrafxr]

Actually all ESP repairs have to be pre-approved by the ESP administrator - CNA for Harley's ESP. So the ESP company knows what is going on before the repair is started. I know my dealer won't proceed without approval on the chance that the claim might be denied. Just good business practice 101.  So in case of major repair or if the dealer is flagged the ESP may insist on an eyes on inspection prior to approval.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HDGearHead]

I Just had my bike in to my dealer to repair a transmission leak at right side bearing plate where the exhaust bracket is attached.

When I picked it up, the Service Writer and Tech pulled me aside to tell me that ESP sent an adjuster there the day before for claims on two other bikes.  The adjuster made them connect the Digital Tech to both and specifically had them check to see if the ECM had been flagged as being Race Tuned by the SEPST.

They were stunned by this and had never been challenged by ESP to do this before.  They said ESP would generally only send someone when they were submitting a claim for both tires or for when they were trying to submit multiple (4-5) different claims at once on a single bike. 

FYI - As you know, the SEPST flags the ECM as being Race Tuned once its been used to flash the ECM (TTS does not do this). 

Once flagged as being  Race Tuned, the flag cannot be reset.  Restoring a TTS MTE file that was backed up before it was flashed by the SEPST will not reset it the flag.  The dealer tech also told me that they're are unable to reset the Race Tuned flag through the Digital Tech. 

One more reason to stay away from the SEPST.

[Ridgerunr]

A completely stock motor tuned with SESPT likely would be more reliable in the long run. Was the claim denied?

[HDGearHead]

A completely stock motor tuned with SESPT likely would be more reliable in the long run. Was the claim denied?

Neither one of the two bikes they checked had been tuned with the SE Pro Super Tuner (SEPST) so the race tuned flag hadn't been set in the ECM.  Because of this, we don't know what the outcome would have been if it had been set.   While the ESP adjuster approved the claims, I assume he was looking for a reason to deny them (the dealer didn’t disclose what the two bikes were in for and I didn't ask).

It’s within the ESP adjuster’s right to deny the claim if the Digital Tech showed that the ECM was Race Tuned (or if they found any other tuner on the bike such as the Power Vision/Commander, ThunderMax, ECM locked by TTS, etc).  I don't think the Race Tuned flag is set by the SE Street Tuner (SEST) though as those are 50 state legal.

In my case, to repair my trans leak, the tech had to completely disassemble the trans to replace the gasket and repair threads with a timeserts.  In the process of disassembly, he found a problem with the clutch hub and input shaft.  As a result, they both were replaced along with all of the trans bearings.  ESP approved all of the work over the phone which totaled close to $1400.

It’s exactly like Jerry (GRC) and ultrafxr stated in their posts. ESP is a service contract (a type of insurance) and not an extension of the manufactures warranty.  The Federal laws governing warranties do not apply to service contracts.  The ESP administrator (CNA) is within their rights to terminate your service contract if you don’t comply with the terms of it.

What I don’t know is if they will if they refund a prorated amount upon cancellation/termination of the contract if you previously had repairs paid out under the contract (I’d have to dig it out and read it).  I know that some other Vehicle Service Contracts do not provide a refund in these cases (i.e.  Say a contract cost $1500 and had already paid out $2000 in repairs.  No refund for you upon cancellation/termination).

Trying to have your bike repaired covered under ESP after having made modifications to it that violate the terms of the service contract is like a game of chance.   Some people are lucky some of the time, but nobody is lucky all of the time.   We each have our own comfort level and tolerance for risk.

If you have a good reputable dealer and a good relationship with them, they ‘MAY’ be able to help with a problem before requesting an approval from ESP. 

The dealer has a ‘feel’ for what is getting approved over the phone and what seems to be triggering an adjuster to be sent out.  However, they will not lie or try to perpetrate a fraud on your behalf in order to get a claim approved.  Even if your repairs were to be approved over the phone, ESP could still send an adjuster for the bike on the lift next to yours that may suddenly decide to incpect yours while hes there since there is a claim being made on it.  The dealer is not going to put their business on the line for you.

Because of this, I always have an honest (full disclosure) discussion with both the service writer and tech that will be working my bike about what I need done and any concerns that they or I have before the bike is even written up for service.   I can prepare for and handle bad news; I don’t like surprises…. 

[baddyna96]

I wonder if the V&H FP3 triggers the flag? During its installation, it saves the stock tune into "slot 0", so it may be reflashed, if desired.

[HDGearHead]

The Race Tuned flag is set by the SE Pro Super Tuner (SEPST).  I doubt any other flash tuners set this (but don't take my word for it). 

I know that the TTS doesn't.  However, the TTS locks the ECM so that your tune cannot be inadvertently wiped out by a dealer re-flash of the ECM via the Digital Tech.  With a TTS, you can restore the MTE backup which will unlock the ECM and restore it to stock. 

[Ridgerunr]

If the folks at CNA don't understand a proper tune (let's assume stock motor, pipes etc.) will let the motor run cooler reducing the  possibility of pistons, valves, guides, etc. failing sooner, then I'm glad I didn't purchase the ESP on my Roadglide a few weeks ago. I did purchase the ESP on the CVO King I got in May, so maybe I wasted some $$$. Being the factory warranty is still in effect maybe I'll see if I can backout.  I know the service guys pretty well, ask if CNA is changing it's methods of claim acceptance. Good discussion here. 

[HDGearHead]

If the folks at CNA don't understand a proper tune (let's assume stock motor, pipes etc.) will let the motor run cooler reducing the  possibility of pistons, valves, guides, etc. failing sooner, then I'm glad I didn't purchase the ESP on my Roadglide a few weeks ago. I did purchase the ESP on the CVO King I got in May, so maybe I wasted some $$$. Being the factory warranty is still in effect maybe I'll see if I can backout.  I know the service guys pretty well, ask if CNA is changing it's methods of claim acceptance. Good discussion here.

Proper Tune.......  What constitutes a proper tune and who’s the arbiter of that?

If an owner installs a V&H Fuel Pak and picks their own Fuel Pak map. Is that considered proper tune for their bike?

How about if they buy a PV, TTS or SEPST and flash a canned base map or tune it themselves using Vtune or Smart Tune; is that a proper tune for their bike?

What about the owner installing a Thundermax or Daytona Twin Tec, making their own selection of a base map and settings and then riding it around auto tuning the AFR while adjusting the timing to stop the ping or increase power; is that a proper tune?

What if they take their PV, TTS, SEPST, ThunderMax, etc to a shop with a dyno and have it tuned.  Are they getting a proper tune then?  Personally I think there are more shops pumping out bad tunes than there are good ones by a large margin.

How about if the owner actually had a proper tune (or unaware second owner) and then decided to change the Exhaust, Air Cleaner or other parts without getting it re-tuned because it seems to still run good yet?

What about the aftermarket performance parts that are being installed as well.   There are thousands of parts that can be installed in millions of combinations.  Are all of these well engineered, quality components that work well together to make the bike more reliable and run better?

What the ESP administrator (CNA) understands is risk management.  A factory stock bike statistically has a lower risk of requiring repairs than a bike that has been modified.  If it was the other way around, they wouldn’t provide coverage for factory stock bikes and instead sell service contracts for bikes that were modified.  They are in the business of making money.  If you want an assurance that they will not deny a claim or terminate your contract, then leave the bike stock and abide by the terms of the contract.

While I may believe that the modifications I’ve made to my bike have improved its reliability and performance, that doesn’t make it so (Who the heck am I to say so).  When I choose to modify my bike, I am choosing to have the responsibility, risk, costs and consequences associated to that decision assigned to me.  I’m not going to get angry or upset with the ESP administrator, MoCo or the dealer for my choice if they then choose not to pay for repairs that may later result from that choice.

You can discuss with your dealer.  Even if they tell you that it’s not a concern, that they know how to work with ESP, and that they generally never have any problems; I’m certain that they will not pay your repair bill for you in the event that ESP denies your claim or terminates your contract.

[Dr.D]

It's hard to argue,effectively, with Jerry.

I think it the ESP company could deny 90% of all claims if they really got to work and checked out the bikes they were repairing. The only reason they don't is they feel they are making plenty of money as it is. They know full well the HD typical owner is changing the bikes but as long as they have profit they are happy. Think about how low the rates would be if they only fixed the bikes they had to as mandated by the policy?

[FlaHeatWave]

What I don’t know is if they will if they refund a prorated amount upon cancellation/termination of the contract if you previously had repairs paid out under the contract (I’d have to dig it out and read it).  I know that some other Vehicle Service Contracts do not provide a refund in these cases (i.e.  Say a contract cost $1500 and had already paid out $2000 in repairs.  No refund for you upon cancellation/termination).

'Had 2 tires, a Crank, and some other stuff replaced on the '09 SERG by ESP, when they didn't want to swallow a motor in Nov. '13 (front intake lifter) because of the SE Stage III, I cancelled and got over $1,700. back from a $2,200. (5year plan).

When ESP cancels / is cancelled, for a rebate, the selling Dealer has to kick almost 50% (of the rebate or selling price ~ not sure which) back to ESP.

[Ridgerunr]

I'm thinking of cancelling mine. I did change the pipes and had it tuned, so now it's a race bike I guess. 
In 40 years of riding Harley's I know a lot of riders. Maybe 1 has left their bike completely stock. I'm still trying to figure out how the tune affects the transmission if it decides to go south.  I know I'll be steering my friends/associates away from ESP/CNA.

[timo482]

remember - what the dealer covers - vs what esp covers have no relation. if the dealer covers a repair, but esp does not you never knew it was voided.

as time goes on the dealers in general are less likely to cover costs out of there own pocket. hd and cna have for many years now taken a hard line - many dealers set aside to cover uncovered costs to keep there customers happy. if your dealer does that good for you. 

to give advise to anyone that there dealer will treat them the same as yours so "do what you want" is disingenuous. to tell others to "use my dealer" because they actually cover there word - thats useful.

[Dr.D]

So back to the cam issue. Do the ESP companies consider the 255 a health cam and all the others to be unhealthy? I think not . It is more about writing a policy that makes money for a known entity. Changing anything on the bike makes it an unknown and therefore not quantifiable from a statistics perspective. I don't blame them a bit for writing the things they way they do. How would you like to cover with your money a bike that can be altered in any fashion?