Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5  All

Author Topic: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel  (Read 18631 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

easttnrhino

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 141
Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« on: December 09, 2014, 08:40:18 PM »

I see fuelmoto offers a stainless steel head pipe and say with the cermaic coating it the coolest pipe Made does not transfer as much heat as steel pipe ceramic coated, anybody verify.
Logged

Steve Cole

  • Manufacturer TTS
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1430
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2014, 09:34:35 PM »

Hate to say it but that statement is pure BS. The ability to stop heat transfer is not the pipe materiel when using coatings, that is what the coating is all about. So the coating stops the heat transfer and unless they do not use the same quality coating on both pipes you can see my point. Also if they use a cheaper coating/ less quality coating on the steel pipe I would not buy one from them. Since pipes are suppose to be coated inside and out the materiel within the two layers of coating will have little to nothing to do with it.
Logged
The Best you know, is the Best you've had........ not necessarily the Best.

kbryant

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
  • www.CVOHARLEY.com
    • FL
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2014, 10:31:37 AM »

Actually the base material and wall thickness do have an added effect on the outcome in terms of temperature.  The ceramic coating process does not “stop” heat transfer; it simply reduces it.  The overall reduction in radiant heat is different on stainless versus mild steel when ceramic coating is applied, based on what the heat radiant was without the ceramic coating.  Stainless steel naturally retains heat more than mild steel.  Ceramic coating over stainless would give the benefit of spreading the heat load out and allowing better dissipation and reduction.  When combined with internal/external ceramic coatings, you’re changing the effective outcome.  Engine state-of-tune (stock or modified) also naturally plays a part in overall radiant heat emitted and effectiveness as such. Heat dissipation and the appearance of any discoloration would be the benefits over stainless steel alone.   Definitely one of the best combinations utilizing stainless steel and ceramic coating.

The internal/external ceramic coating is the same from a primary function standpoint between the two (stainless and/or steel).  The mil thickness would be very close to the same as well, although the surface roughness is greater with the steel satin finish.   Polishing operations may compress the mill thickness very slightly. Polished will give better performance in terms of corrosion (salt spray resistance, etc.), but both perform about the same in terms of temperature reduction as compared to the base bare metal makeup.    Cosmetically, the unpolished finish is a result of simply not doing the further media operations required of “polishing” the surfaces.  There are performance benefits to polishing the surface, but then we start splitting hairs on that subject matter if we get away from the “polished finish just looks better” preference.

The mild steel offering is a high quality, lower cost alternative.  Being mild steel, it requires some kind of coating to prevent corrosion.  Sure, it could have been simply painted.  But the goal was never to make a “cheap” pipe as compared to the stainless steel offering.   It was to offer a lower price point option, while also addressing heat barrier options since mild steel tubing will have a lower life span from heat-cycling fatigue without a barrier applied.  If you only coat the outside (as many companies do) radiant heat will be lowered slightly, but you will further shorten the lifespan of mild steel from the “inside out”.  So the inside “surface” must have that issue addressed on a quality product.  Yes, it’s more expensive to also coat the inside, but by our standards, that is not an option; it is mandatory.   Obviously the mild steel tubing/head pipe is significantly easier to work with; all the way from cutting to bending/forming, sanding, welding, one set of bungs, etc.  And of course material costs are lower.  No big mystery there.  Once again, passing those cost savings along to the customer who desires a more competitive price point (from the stainless/ceramic combo option). 

So the bottom line is – lots of benefits from ceramic coatings being applied to whatever the base material is; cosmetic, performance, lower temps, corrosion protection, etc.  The primary benefit is significantly lower radiant heat.  And on a big air-cooled v-twin engine with head pipe tubes in close proximity to your lower extremities, that’s always going to be a good thing.
Logged

porthole

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10767
  • Welcome to the Machine

    • CVO1: 2005.3217-45 FLHTCSE2
    • Porthole II
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2014, 10:43:29 AM »

So the bottom line is – lots of benefits from ceramic coatings being applied to whatever the base material is; cosmetic, performance, lower temps, corrosion protection, etc.  The primary benefit is significantly lower radiant heat.  And on a big air-cooled v-twin engine with head pipe tubes in close proximity to your lower extremities, that’s always going to be a good thing.

Has anyone ever done a test with say D&D Fat Cats. Brand new heat test and then another brand new pipe ceramic coated inside followed by a 3rd test with ceramic coating inside and out?
I certainly haven't, but, I did have a new set of D& D pipes coated inside and out and the only benefit I got was a nice finish. In the end I removed the exhaust because my wife couldn't stand the heat anymore off the rear pipe.

BTW, the quality and visual look between two sets of pipes done 5 years apart has changed. It appears the quality of the coatings just isn't what it used to be.
Logged
:fireman: Duane  :fireman:


MV 2013

1982 LowRider * 1974 XLCH * 1972 Adnoh
You can't control the weather, only how you deal with it

dooinit2u

  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2709
    • LA

    • CVO1: 2015 SESG UltraViolet Blue / Hot Lava ***SOLD***
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2014, 11:20:01 AM »

I see fuelmoto offers a stainless steel head pipe and say with the cermaic coating it the coolest pipe Made does not transfer as much heat as steel pipe ceramic coated, anybody verify.

I have them on two bikes, and IMO, living in South Louisiana, they made a temp change from stock. The Stainless Steel on my original headpipe from 09 is still looking good and still in one piece, unlike a few other brands that have rotted on other members bikes.

Very good products and good people to deal with, So why change. The FM Jackpot mufflers sound and perform good also.

Logged

Steve Cole

  • Manufacturer TTS
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1430
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2014, 12:20:36 PM »

Actually the base material and wall thickness do have an added effect on the outcome in terms of temperature. 

While I agree that the base material CAN have and effect, in this case they donot, so I stand by my statement the original statement is pure BS. Not only have we measure it both ways, the base materials being used are not all that great to start with. It is pure marketing hype when it comes to this case. If you were to making real changes to base material and wall thickness it might be different but that is not what is being sold. The proper ID coating has more of an effect on heat radiated than changing the base material in this case.


but then we start splitting hairs on that subject matter
Logged
The Best you know, is the Best you've had........ not necessarily the Best.

Twolanerider

  • 25K CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 50549
  • EBCM #1.5 Emeritus DSP # ? Critter Gawker #?
    • MO


    • CVO1: 2000 Triple Red Screamin' Eagle Road Glide
    • CVO2: 2002 Candy Brandywine Screamin' Eagle Road King
    • CVO3: 1999 Arresting Red FXR2
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2014, 12:33:38 PM »

but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.....
Logged

grc

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14216
  • AKA Grouchy Old Fart
    • IN


    • CVO1: 2005 SEEG2
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2014, 01:40:59 PM »

Funny thing about this subject is that while stainless has a lower heat transfer rate and lower emissivity than mild carbon steel, or aluminum, or many other materials used in heat exchangers, you still find high end heat exchangers that use stainless steel tubing.  My point is that just looking at the charts that list values for heat transfer and emissivity won't give you the total picture.

IF we just look at those charts for mild steel and stainless, we could speculate that the stainless tube (pipe) would indeed transfer less heat from the interior surface to the outer surface than the mild steel version.  But not all stainless is created equal, and adding internal and external coatings to the pipe will also affect heat transfer and emissivity and possibly offset some of those differences in the base metals.  In other words, the only way to know for sure would be to actually test under controlled conditions the different pipes being discussed.  Until someone does that and publishes verifiable data, anyone can claim whatever they want in their advertising.  As I've noted many times around here, many companies in the Harley aftermarket like to play fast and loose with the facts in their advertising.  I wouldn't blindly accept any claims without verifiable proof, no matter what you may think of the overall company.

JMHO - Jerry
Logged
Jerry - 2005 Cherry SEEG  -  Member # 1155

H-D and me  -  a classic love / hate relationship.  Current score:  love 40, hate 50, bewildered 10.

Born2Live

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 212
    • MI


    • CVO1: FLHXSE 2015 CVO Street Glide
    • CVO2: VRSCF 2013 V Rod Muscle
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2014, 04:30:37 PM »

While I agree that the base material CAN have and effect, in this case they donot, so I stand by my statement the original statement is pure BS. Not only have we measure it both ways, the base materials being used are not all that great to start with. It is pure marketing hype when it comes to this case. If you were to making real changes to base material and wall thickness it might be different but that is not what is being sold. The proper ID coating has more of an effect on heat radiated than changing the base material in this case.


but then we start splitting hairs on that subject matter

So the ceramic coating on the Fullsac pipes is also marketing hype?
Logged
Fuelmoto 2-1-2 Jackpot Headers
Fuelmoto FLH E Series Mufflers - 14 discs

Steve Cole

  • Manufacturer TTS
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1430
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2014, 05:23:59 PM »

So the ceramic coating on the Fullsac pipes is also marketing hype?

Not sure how you could possible get that from my post. What IS marketing hype is that a poor quality Stainless Steel pipe coated, will lower the heat any over a Mild Steel coated pipe!
Logged
The Best you know, is the Best you've had........ not necessarily the Best.

kbryant

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8
  • www.CVOHARLEY.com
    • FL
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2014, 06:37:23 PM »

Since the OP was inquiring specifically about Fuel Moto exhaust - For reference, the stainless steel utilized in all Fuel Moto head pipes is 304 series, ASTM A-269, which is an expensive (as compared to mild steel) fully annealed material.  It is recognized as one of the most desirable for motorcycle exhaust for it's ease of bending properties being that it's fully annealed.  It is superior to A-554 which will work harden when manufacturing with it.  The lower quality 409 series that many motorcycle and automotive manufactures utilize simply based on price (it's essentially the cheapest stainless steel) does not have the corrosion resistance and contains no nickel.
Logged

Born2Live

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 212
    • MI


    • CVO1: FLHXSE 2015 CVO Street Glide
    • CVO2: VRSCF 2013 V Rod Muscle
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2014, 06:56:38 PM »


Not sure how you could possible get that from my post. What IS marketing hype is that a poor quality Stainless Steel pipe coated, will lower the heat any over a Mild Steel coated pipe!

Does ceramic coating on the pike offer any added value whether it's a fuel Moto pipe or a fullback pipe?
Logged
Fuelmoto 2-1-2 Jackpot Headers
Fuelmoto FLH E Series Mufflers - 14 discs

Steve Cole

  • Manufacturer TTS
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1430
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2014, 07:30:16 PM »

Since the OP was inquiring specifically about Fuel Moto exhaust - For reference, the stainless steel utilized in all Fuel Moto head pipes is 304 series, ASTM A-269, which is an expensive (as compared to mild steel) fully annealed material.  It is recognized as one of the most desirable for motorcycle exhaust for it's ease of bending properties being that it's fully annealed.  It is superior to A-554 which will work harden when manufacturing with it.  The lower quality 409 series that many motorcycle and automotive manufactures utilize simply based on price (it's essentially the cheapest stainless steel) does not have the corrosion resistance and contains no nickel.

304 is still a low grade Stainless Steel and by no means a quality grade Stainless Steel. That is just why a magnet sticks to it! It is considered a low cost, low grade Stainless Steel. Look around near any industrial application and you will find most all use 303 or 321! 304 is not allowed in many applications due to its low grade. Yes, they are harder to work with but if your going for quality that is what you use. As for 409 it is just slightly below 304, your in the bottom grade range with either of them. IMHO when your trying to advertise high grade you should be using 303 or 321 to use those words. This has nothing to do with who uses the material as it's the same for anyone.

Quality coating on brand "XXX" or brand "YYY' is a good thing, let's not confuse coating with base material. My point is and has been, a properly coated HD pipe is pretty much the same. The problem comes from improperly coated pipes and people cutting corners to save a buck. On my personal bike I spend more on coating than I did the pipe and it is worth every penny I spent getting it done!
Logged
The Best you know, is the Best you've had........ not necessarily the Best.

Born2Live

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 212
    • MI


    • CVO1: FLHXSE 2015 CVO Street Glide
    • CVO2: VRSCF 2013 V Rod Muscle
Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2014, 08:03:31 PM »

Ok now stainless steel is something I can speak intelligently about.  Most industrial processes do utilize 304SS.  304ss is actually better for heat related areas such as exhaust systems up to about 1800 dg.  321SS does has higher resistance to heat and corrosion regarding liquid acid applications or high alkaline applications.    However for high temperature applications, 321 expansion properties under Heat are twice that of 304 and over time 321ss will fracture due to stress points from expansion not being designed into the system.   How do I know this?  My 25 years of constructing power plants, refineries and other various industries around the country. 




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Logged
Fuelmoto 2-1-2 Jackpot Headers
Fuelmoto FLH E Series Mufflers - 14 discs

Ridgerunr

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 921
  • www.CVOHARLEY.com
    • TN

Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2014, 08:09:11 PM »

"On my personal bike I spend more on coating than I did the pipe and it is worth every penny I spent getting it done!"

Sums it up. Top Fuel drag racers used to go through several sets of headers a season. when Jet Hot and others came out teams get a whole season or more out of the coated headers.
Logged
2004 Roadglide 113" (sold)
2014 CVO RoadKing
2015 RGS
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5  All
 

Page created in 0.193 seconds with 20 queries.