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Author Topic: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel  (Read 18630 times)

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kbryant

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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2014, 08:18:03 PM »

304 is still a low grade Stainless Steel and by no means a quality grade Stainless Steel. That is just why a magnet sticks to it! It is considered a low cost, low grade Stainless Steel. Look around near any industrial application and you will find most all use 303 or 321! 304 is not allowed in many applications due to its low grade. Yes, they are harder to work with but if your going for quality that is what you use. As for 409 it is just slightly below 304, your in the bottom grade range with either of them. IMHO when your trying to advertise high grade you should be using 303 or 321 to use those words. This has nothing to do with who uses the material as it's the same for anyone.

Quality coating on brand "XXX" or brand "YYY' is a good thing, let's not confuse coating with base material. My point is and has been, a properly coated HD pipe is pretty much the same. The problem comes from improperly coated pipes and people cutting corners to save a buck. On my personal bike I spend more on coating than I did the pipe and it is worth every penny I spent getting it done!

Steve - I don't know what your agenda is here, but you obviously have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to exhaust manufacturing.   A magnet does not stick to 304 series because of the nickel content.  304 series is considered in the exhaust business, to be the most favored in mass production quality exhaust systems.  409 is consider the lowest, cheapest grade and is not even remotely compared to 304 in our industry.  Pricing is not even remotely close to 304/A-269.  A magnet sticks to 409 series because it has no nickel as noted.  It will also corrode fairly quickly. 

We are not talking about "industrial applications".  But since you brought up other grades -  in "our industry" 316 is primarily utilized in marine applications.  321 is primarily utilized in applications such as Turbo or Rotary engines.  Neither are utilized in mass production applications such as motorcycle exhaust systems.  304 is our industry standard for quality exhaust products.  Do the research.  Nobody in our industry utilizes 303 or 321 from a mass production standpoint.
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Firewalker

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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2014, 08:41:27 PM »

And now let us not forget about intergranular cracking of SS caused by the introduction of leads, sulfurs, or halogens. Yes, as Born2Live, I have been doing this work for over 40 years and still enjoy it. I would have to agree with Steve though, if you can get the fusion right for your ceramic to bond properly, focus on the quality of the ceramic.
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Steve Cole

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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2014, 09:46:59 PM »

Steve - I don't know what your agenda is here, but you obviously have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to exhaust manufacturing.   A magnet does not stick to 304 series because of the nickel content.  304 series is considered in the exhaust business, to be the most favored in mass production quality exhaust systems.  409 is consider the lowest, cheapest grade and is not even remotely compared to 304 in our industry.  Pricing is not even remotely close to 304/A-269.  A magnet sticks to 409 series because it has no nickel as noted.  It will also corrode fairly quickly. 

We are not talking about "industrial applications".  But since you brought up other grades -  in "our industry" 316 is primarily utilized in marine applications.  321 is primarily utilized in applications such as Turbo or Rotary engines.  Neither are utilized in mass production applications such as motorcycle exhaust systems.  304 is our industry standard for quality exhaust products.  Do the research.  Nobody in our industry utilizes 303 or 321 from a mass production standpoint.

I been involved in exhaust manufacturing for the past 30 years so I know a thing or two about it. If you want to do it cheap, call it Stainless and go fast in manufacturing you use 304 or 409. It's got nothing at all to do with being good quality, it has everything to be with being cheaper! The marine industry does not use it for good reason and that is because it does not hold up! "Most favored in mass production quality exhaust systems" = cheaper and faster, that's the bottom line, so quit trying to make it out to something it's NOT. More Hype!

My agenda as you call it is simple. To inform people of the BS advertising you are involved in spreading. Just because you do not use the higher grades does not mean there is an issue with it, and as a matter of fact there have been plenty of exhaust systems made from 303 316, 321 that have held-up for 20+ years and YES it cost more. 304 is still a cheap grade stainless steel when compared to other stainless steel's and your the one that is trying to mislead people into believing the changing from a properly coated mild steel to a coated stainless steel of 304 is going to run cooler and I am calling BS on it! I have measured it before , have you? Also the Stainless steel exhaust that has been on display at trade shows in FuelMoto's booth DOES allow a magnetic to stick to it, so I guess that's more misleading.

It cost more to use the good Stainless Steel, manufacturing takes longer and more care must be taking when designing how it fits together and the processes it takes for proper welding. That doesn't mean it not better, it just means it cost more and it's a case where you pay for the quality or you don't get it.

Look, people need to understand that ALL materials have there better and worse points and a balance is struck between cost and quality. But to try and BS people with it's better because it runs cooler is advertising hype at it's worst. If you wrote that then you need to remove it or back it up with cold hard facts from an independent test facility using the parts your talking about, not industry average statements or it's the standard in our industry. All those statements are good for is the garbage can and showing your more interested in advertising hype than the truth.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 09:56:28 PM by Steve Cole »
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tweeter13

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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2014, 10:16:33 PM »

While debating this subject.  Why not also throw in titanium as a high end material.   Or is is this something that ceramic coating just won't work adhere to.   

Todd
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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2014, 10:19:06 PM »

What does a magnet have to do with the quality if the SS?

And doesn't the non magnetic grades (3xx) become somewhat magnetic after being worked?
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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2014, 09:39:00 AM »

What does a magnet have to do with the quality if the SS?

And doesn't the non magnetic grades (3xx) become somewhat magnetic after being worked?

Yeap, if cold worked.  Which is why the "if a magnet sticks to it" thing so often used for-or-against in sales is a bit of a chimera.

The link below goes to a relatively short page that might be looked at if, for some reason, someone is not already bored out of their f(*%)ng mind by this thread and, for reasons that boggle the mind, actually want to read something from outside:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=536
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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2014, 10:14:07 AM »

I agree with nothing this thread has turned into. If a vendor on this site has as much value in their products, "sell" your product for its value, fabrication and usefulness to this industry.

You are not gaining points by being the second comment to a thread, that asked a question about your competitor. That just "Aint right".

Put more emphasis in developing your product instead of cutting down your competitors product.
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kbryant

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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2014, 10:41:07 AM »

I agree with nothing this thread has turned into. If a vendor on this site has as much value in their products, "sell" your product for its value, fabrication and usefulness to this industry.

You are not gaining points by being the second comment to a thread, that asked a question about your competitor. That just "Aint right".

Put more emphasis in developing your product instead of cutting down your competitors product.

Well said and agreed.  My original intention was to supply facts to the OP and nothing else.  Obviously it degraded into a non-sensible argument/debate.  It would simply not be professional or of any further value to this thread to continue.  With that, I will let the product speak for itself and respectfully bow out.
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Twolanerider

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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2014, 10:43:51 AM »

I agree with nothing this thread has turned into. If a vendor on this site has as much value in their products, "sell" your product for its value, fabrication and usefulness to this industry.

You are not gaining points by being the second comment to a thread, that asked a question about your competitor. That just "Aint right".

Put more emphasis in developing your product instead of cutting down your competitors product.

This isn't a new issue.   Waxes and wanes with some.   But friendly biker humanity seems to always eventually give way again to sales insecurities.  Some of us rue the day years ago the vendors were allowed such a toehold here.   Overall it's been a gain.   But not without attendant annoyances.  The behaviors of them all strongly guide (even moreso than product perceptions) from whom I'll buy though.
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kiro

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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2014, 10:49:23 AM »

Quote
The behaviors of them all strongly guide (even moreso than product perceptions) whom I'll buy from though.

I've had nothing but positive dealings with vendors on this site, but that's a great point Twolanerider - kind of indicative of what one may expect from a particular vendor...
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Steve Cole

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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2014, 11:24:01 AM »

I agree with nothing this thread has turned into. If a vendor on this site has as much value in their products, "sell" your product for its value, fabrication and usefulness to this industry.

You are not gaining points by being the second comment to a thread, that asked a question about your competitor. That just "Aint right".

Put more emphasis in developing your product instead of cutting down your competitors product.

I do not sell or manufacture an exhaust for a HD but I have been involved in the development of exhaust systems for over 30 years. So , yes I have a very good back round in the field and understand the materials, design and manufacturing parts of it very well. It is advertising like this that has giving the industry, in general a black eye and some very upset customers. I am sorry if you think I am a competitor as I am not. What I have tried to do is point out that the original claim made is pure BS.
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Born2Live

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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2014, 02:03:18 PM »

I agree with nothing this thread has turned into. If a vendor on this site has as much value in their products, "sell" your product for its value, fabrication and usefulness to this industry.

You are not gaining points by being the second comment to a thread, that asked a question about your competitor. That just "Aint right".

Put more emphasis in developing your product instead of cutting down your competitors product.

Agreed. I am guilty of getting sucked into a discussion that didn't add any value and I apologize for that.  But I don't think I am the only one that notices the trend you can see with whenever Fuelmoto products are brought up.  Mr. Cole is always the first one in line to discredit anything regarding Fuelmoto or DynoJet. 
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Steve Cole

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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2014, 02:45:10 PM »

Agreed. I am guilty of getting sucked into a discussion that didn't add any value and I apologize for that.  But I don't think I am the only one that notices the trend you can see with whenever Fuelmoto products are brought up.  Mr. Cole is always the first one in line to discredit anything regarding Fuelmoto or DynoJet.

Sorry that you feel that way but your statement is untrue. I use DynoJet dyno's pretty much daily and have for about 15 years and as a matter of fact we own 3 of them! They make and sell some nice products. As for FuelMoto I would not own anything they made due to the false advertising they make. It's not like I just decided to not like there products either, we have tested them on several occasions and have the cold hard facts to back-up how I feel. If I felt it would really do any good I can post customer pictures of the FuelMoto Stainless Steel pipe they sell with the coating coming off and it rusting where the coating has come off. These are not my pictures yet from a customer that has around 2500 miles on the pipe and exhaust and it was properly tuned from the day the pipes went on. He removed the exhaust to install a cam and found the issues. Then I could also post another customers pictures about FuelMoto steel pipe, tuned by FuelMoto with the coating falling off.
 
So if I have just saved one other person from believing the advertising hype asked about by the original poster, I'm OK with it.
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Twolanerider

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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2014, 10:59:34 AM »

I still wish that vendors coming on board the site had been accompanied by a rule barring counter battery fire.  They could participate conversationally as part of the community just like everyone else.  But the back and forth between them to sell, steal a sale, dismiss or dispute each other or generally try to elevate or define their interests and intents at the expense of another wouldn't be allowed in the mix.

It's not as bad as it used to be but there was a long stretch (too long) where if someone even mentioned the word head (even if just saying they had to take a crap) that two to four vendors were all over the thread saying how their radial gas flow diputation volumetric efficiency designs were more harrowing and better than the other guys angled flow pattern valve guide seal versus someone else's special gain from wobble flow effected high gas rate flow motion to help keep pipe temps cool.  Or one vendor would mention a job and another would immediately jump in the middle of the thread with something he did (or maybe didn't, but it sounded good) that seemed just a little bit better.

Cole here has been discussed before.  He's even discussed himself that, at times, he's had the unfortunate habit of being too willing to jump in, chide or even ridicule (vendors or members) to protect his brand.  And he got a hell of a lot better about it for quite some time.  But, as with us all, there are no doubt some who push his proverbial buttons more than others.  Perhaps Fuel Moto is just that for him.

I'll still go back to an old standard though.  Steve may be brilliant at what he does.  I've used his product (friend's purchases on their own bikes) first hand and can testify to its ability if one is willing to put in the time to get familiar with it.  But I also have to measure the support and reactions I might expect as a customer in need when considering a vendor who finds it (psychologically, economically, product brandingly) necessary to defend himself perhaps too regularly in online arenas versus another who is confident enough to stay above the fray and let his goods or his work simply speak for themselves. 

Our community is large enough and talented enough (even by laymen's standards) to sort through what works well and what does not; and report accordingly from the bleacher seats.  If we need support so be it; support.  But too overt sales, self-defense in the form of adversarial sales discussions or self-defense between vendors, or, worse, diminishing or demeaning regular site members because the vendor doesn't like what they report are all things I personally wish had never found their way here.
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Re: Exhaust SS vs Mild steel
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2014, 12:08:28 PM »

Well said Don! 

JW
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