Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Hoist!]

Sadunbar,

Your O.C lines look different than mine where they connect. What year/model bike do you have?  I don't think I could mill that much material off like yours. Here another picture of mine with a better view of the O.C fittings.

CO, I think you have to do something there. That bung looks like it could have easily been relocated by RH. I would send that picture to RH and let them see that. They'll see that the bung can be moved a little bit and everything should fit. They should make the pipe to work with a HD OC. That's not exclusive to CVO. I think that's more the problem than the longer O2 sensor. If they're as cooperative as people say, they should do something when they see that. No offense to you at all, but that doesn't look good like that. I hope I'm missing something, but that's what I see from your pics. Sorry man. Hoist

[jdk20723]

"Be interesting to hear what Zippers says..."

Refer to my 2 previous posts.  The longer wide-band sensors are required for our system.  The fact that BUB chose to locate the bungs where they did, or that there is a wide tolerance of that location, is nothing we can control.  Ironically, the WB sensors fit into the stock H-D pipe without this issuse.
The way I see it, there are 3 choices.

1. Modify/Clearance the parts as necessary (is welding in a 2nd bung in a better location an option?)
2. Request another headpipe form BUB that may or may not be any different (will be hard to tell by just looking at it)
3. Return the ThunderMax system and use some other tuning devise to get your bike to run like it should

The choice is up to you.  Zipper's will support option 3 if that is your choice without question.  Sorry I can't do more than that, but I don't know what else we could do.  Thanks, JK

[Chief]

I sure hope this all gets cleared up before I want to get the TD's for my bike.

From where I stand, it's not Zippers' fault. Zippers is using the industry standard Bosch wide band oxygen sensor. It's not like they are going to develop their own sensor when one is available.  If you use any other auto tuning unit, like the Daytona Twin-Tec, you will have the same problem because everyone used the same Bosch sensor.

The problem is not the location of the bung in the Rinehart pipe, it is the angle at which the bung is mounted to the pipe. The stock header pipe has the bung angled so it will come nowhere close to the OC adapter. Rinehart should at least try to mimic the stock mounting configuration.

If I were in the position of having this issue, I'd be cutting the stock angled bung out of my stock head pipe, cutting out Rinehart's bung and would be looking for a goof TIG welder to put the stock bung in Rinehart's pipe.

Bub is the one who has screwed up here. They've done a crappy job with the bungs. It is night and day different than the stock pipe which they are selling their pipes to replace. Their "Replacement" pipe should be a better "Replacement", not just a similar facsimile.

Sorry for the rant, my sinuses are KILLING me!!!

Chief

[grc]

......................................From where I stand, it's not Zippers' fault. Zippers is using the industry standard Bosch wide band oxygen sensor. It's not like they are going to develop their own sensor when one is available.  If you use any other auto tuning unit, like the Daytona Twin-Tec, you will have the same problem because everyone used the same Bosch sensor.

The problem is not the location of the bung in the Rinehart pipe, it is the angle at which the bung is mounted to the pipe. The stock header pipe has the bung angled so it will come nowhere close to the OC adapter. Rinehart should at least try to mimic the stock mounting configuration.

.............................................
[highlight]Bub is the one who has screwed up here. They've done a crappy job with the bungs[/highlight]. It is night and day different than the stock pipe which they are selling their pipes to replace. Their "Replacement" pipe should be a better "Replacement", not just a similar facsimile.

Sorry for the rant, my sinuses are KILLING me!!!

Chief

Chief,

That's a big  [smiley=thumbsup.gif].  It looks like they rushed the pipes to market without doing the proper engineering work first.  You would think a proper approach would be to look for the application with the least amount of clearance (CVO) and design your pipes to fit that.  Then they would easily fit a stocker.  And what about those folks who buy the oil cooler kit for their TC96's?  They will have the same issue.  Methinks BUB needs to go back to the drawing board and get it right.

Jerry

[RedDevil]

Chief,

That's a big  [smiley=thumbsup.gif].  [highlight]It looks like they rushed the pipes to market without doing the proper engineering work first. [/highlight] You would think a proper approach would be to look for the application with the least amount of clearance (CVO) and design your pipes to fit that.  Then they would easily fit a stocker.  And what about those folks who buy the oil cooler kit for their TC96's?  They will have the same issue.  Methinks BUB needs to go back to the drawing board and get it right.

Jerry

Hell of a way to do R&D don't you think?  It sounds to me that all they did was check with the stock O2 sensors and went with that (but forgot to check about brake lever clearance).  And if the "industry standard" for wideband sensors is the Bosch sensors, why wouldn't they have tested those prior to putting a product out?   I think a previous poster hit it on the head.  The MoCo kept the 07's a really good secret until the dealer meeting in July, so they had to scramble to come up with something quick that would work with the sensors.  Hopefully, there will be enough complaints that they'll try and get it right.  I have to agree with adding oil coolers...every Harley I've had, that was one of the first options I installed.   But in a sense you can't blame them, they are in the business to make money, and the first to the market gets the prize.  Hopefully, they'll listen, and if what I'm hearing about Bub, they will solve the issue.

Red  

[Twolanerider]

1. Modify/Clearance the parts as necessary (is welding in a 2nd bung in a better location an option?)

John's option 1 may "seem" like a real chore if you don't have a welder around or aren't familiar with shops in your area.  And if you took the pipe to a dealership and asked them about they'd probably just look at you funny.

However.....

This is actually a pretty easy solution that would also likely be your best solution if you wanted to mess with it.  Pick up a bung at an auto parts store.  Shouldn't be hard to come up with.  Before removal mark on the pipe what would be an ideal location.  Then remove the pipe and just take it down to any old muffler shop.

Anyone inside will be able to cut off the old one, weld up the hole and weld on the new one.  Perhaps the only tool they might not have and that you'd need to bring with is a hole saw to make the hole.  It's likely, however, they've done this very thing many times before in header flanges for automotive stuff.  So you likely won't even need that.

For them it's 20 minutes work they'll probably charge you a sawbuck for.  At that point you will have taken control of the problem, got it exactly where you needed it, not had to wait for shipping back and forth (again and again) and will know in fact it's done the way you want it.

Often times it's easier and so much faster just to fix something (if you can--and even if the parts are new) than it is to go back and forth and back and forth.

[Hoist!]

Send that picture to RH and see what their response is first. Then do what you have to do if they won't help you. And if they don't help you, make sure you post that loud and clear!!! They don't have to do much to make this right! Hoist!  8-)

[110tHunDer]

Chief,

That's a big  [smiley=thumbsup.gif].  It looks like they rushed the pipes to market without doing the proper engineering work first.  You would think a proper approach would be to look for the application with the least amount of clearance (CVO) and design your pipes to fit that.  Then they would easily fit a stocker.  And what about those folks who buy the oil cooler kit for their TC96's?  They will have the same issue.  Methinks BUB needs to go back to the drawing board and get it right.

Jerry

I agree, Jerry.  It's just plain dumb not to design the pipe to fit the CVO brake pedal when you know that doing so won't change a darn thing for how it'll work on a regular production bike.  Same with the position of the O² sensor.  How hard would it have been to mimic the stock orientation? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

I have Rineharts and love 'em, but stuff like what they've done on this latest version really makes you wonder. [smiley=thinking2.gif]

[copout221]

Ok, I fired off three e-mails to Zippers, Rinehart, and EasternPerformance reference this problem. I included the pictures and asked for assistance from them. I requested a new right side pipe from EP and RH from a new kit to see if that remedies this problem. If RH gives me some excuses or turns their back on me I will definitely post it. I know EP is a decent vendor who will most likely take the system back. The only problem with returning the RH system is I don't have the box anymore and I ran the bike for 30 minutes to tune the Thundermax. We will see what happens tomorrow.  [smiley=confused5.gif]

[sadunbar]

"Be interesting to hear what Zippers says..."

Refer to my 2 previous posts.  The longer wide-band sensors are required for our system.  The fact that BUB chose to locate the bungs where they did, or that there is a wide tolerance of that location, is nothing we can control.  Ironically, the WB sensors fit into the stock H-D pipe without this issuse.
The way I see it, there are 3 choices.

1. Modify/Clearance the parts as necessary (is welding in a 2nd bung in a better location an option?)
2. Request another headpipe form BUB that may or may not be any different (will be hard to tell by just looking at it)
3. Return the ThunderMax system and use some other tuning devise to get your bike to run like it should

The choice is up to you.  Zipper's will support option 3 if that is your choice without question.  Sorry I can't do more than that, but I don't know what else we could do.  Thanks, JK

When I said "be interesting to hear what Zipper's says", I didn't mean to imply any Zippers responsibility.  I meant it would be interesting to hear Zippers opinion of whether installation as it currently is pictured was going to be reliable.  In other words, do you think the 02 sensor would survive as installed.  I personally would want additional clearance.  I am not pointing responsibility towards anyone...just trying to help solve the problem and relay my experience with the same issue.
 
Scott

[sadunbar]

Sadunbar,

Your O.C lines look different than mine where they connect. What year/model bike do you have?  I don't think I could mill that much material off like yours. Here another picture of mine with a better view of the O.C fittings.

You are correct.  Your O.C. fittings and your O.C. adapter are different then mine.  I had much more material on the adapter and completely different fittings.  My bike is an 07 SEUC delivered in mid December...  Attached is a picture of the bike...

Scott

[Chief]

Chief,

That's a big  [smiley=thumbsup.gif].  It looks like they rushed the pipes to market without doing the proper engineering work first.  You would think a proper approach would be to look for the application with the least amount of clearance (CVO) and design your pipes to fit that.  Then they would easily fit a stocker.  And what about those folks who buy the oil cooler kit for their TC96's?  They will have the same issue.  Methinks BUB needs to go back to the drawing board and get it right.

Jerry

Jerry,

I totally agree with that. I know when I would sit down to make a pipe to replace the stock pipe, I'd have a stock pipe in front of me first, and second, copy it and be done with it. That would give the highest probability of not having problems. And if the pipes weren't available when they first designed these pipes, I'd make sure I got one ASAP to make the -1 revision when possible.

What's the difference in the stock pipe and the BUBs pipe? The bung! The Moco used a beveled bung so the O2 sensor would sit horizontal to the ground. The BUBs bung is the standard flat-faced bung that puts the sensor perpendicular to the pipe, pointing right for the OC adapter, if it exists.

The only thing I can come up with as a reason for doing it how they did it, is that the beveled bung probably costs more. I don't know if that's true at all, but it's the only answer I can come up with to the question of "Why the heck didn't they just copy the stock pipe?

I think I'll be calling BUBs tomorrow to inquire. From what I've heard, they're a great company that really stands behind their product. Hands down, if it weren't for these fitment issues, I'd alerady have a set on, or at least on order.

Chief

[Fired00d]

Seems there is more to this story. From Sadunbar last post seems there is some differences in the same year/model bike from the MoCo in the parts around the pipe. If the MoCo is changing design that quickly how can an aftermarket company keep up w/changes, supply, and demand for customers. It will be interesting to see how many other changes are being made. [smiley=confused5.gif]

All these changes may be part/all of the reason that pipes fitting one bike, and not the other. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Chief]

Seems there is more to this story. From Sadunbar last post seems there is some differences in the same year/model bike from the MoCo in the parts around the pipe. If the MoCo is changing design that quickly [highlight]how can an aftermarket company keep up w/changes[/highlight], supply, and demand for customers. It will be interesting to see how many other changes are being made. [smiley=confused5.gif]

All these changes may be part/all of the reason that pipes fitting one bike, and not the other. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

d00d,

I don't think they have to. If they copied the stock bung configuration, i.e. use the beveled bung, there is no conflict with the OC adapter, because the sensor comes nowhere near it, so no change would be necessary. Hang on, picture coming.

Chief

OK, this first one shows the stock narrow-band sensor sitcking horizontally from the pipe. The beveled bung is very visible.

[Chief]

This shot shows the short narrow band sensor sticking horizontal. Lots of clearance, regardless of sensor length.