Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Yellow09SERG]

Have seen the 585 recommended several time by some of the builders here set at 10.5. Where is the torque curve at and what could be expected out of this cam at 10.5, and where would the 50mm TB move this cam compared to the 58mm TB? Any dyno sheets that could be posted?

[CVO2FIXUP]

 Did the 585 with 10:5 comp got 110hp and 120 fpt.  Lost a very tiny bit of torque below 3 grand but I am currently running a Rinehart true dual pipe with the 4 inch cans. Will probably change to a V&H Stainless Pro Pipe to get that bottom back. Above 3 grand, the bike is like a stock car. Just rips. Nice quest cam as well. After my build all the cam train noise is gone. Love my bike now.

   I am not to happy with the tune however, could not get the tuner I wanted. The owner of the shoppe took over and rushed my bike through. The actual guy was pissed. So I will have to go back this summer. Will get a few more points for sure.

[Yellow09SERG]

What TB are you running on that build?

[prodrag1320]

we use a lot of the 585`s.just finished a 107",our 1.900 STREET port headwork,10.5-1,stock T. body.made 110/124.ill post a dyno sheet when I get in the shop tuesday

[Yellow09SERG]

Kirby, have you done a 110 build with this cam? I like the curve that CVO2 dyno sheet shows and if I could move it 200 to the left with a 55mm TB I would be really happy.

[prodrag1320]

yes done a couple.ill see if I can find a dyno sheet or 2 when I get in the shop.set at 10.4 to 10.6-1,the 585 is a GREAT 110 cam set

[Yellow09SERG]

Thank you Kirby. I am guessing the CCP would end 195-200?

[CVO2FIXUP]

What TB are you running on that build?

   Stock TB for now. Doing it step by step. Pipe and TB next year, then a full billet clutch. ( stock seems to be holding out well for now )

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

We have not used the .585 in a 110", but in other builds/sizes we used them in they push off about the same as a Wood 8, but they won't "strike" quite as aggressively, and is usually never felt.
Scott

[Doc 1]

Did the 585 with 10:5 comp got 110hp and 120 fpt.  Lost a very tiny bit of torque below 3 grand but I am currently running a Rinehart true dual pipe with the 4 inch cans. Will probably change to a V&H Stainless Pro Pipe to get that bottom back. Above 3 grand, the bike is like a stock car. Just rips. Nice quest cam as well. After my build all the cam train noise is gone. Love my bike now.

   I am not to happy with the tune however, could not get the tuner I wanted. The owner of the shoppe took over and rushed my bike through. The actual guy was pissed. So I will have to go back this summer. Will get a few more points for sure.

The 585 suffers terribly below 3000 rpm no matter what pipe you use. Numbers aren't everything when the area where the bike lives is worse that stock cams. If you're a twister the 585 is fine, if you're a cruiser you probably won't like it. Personally I don't care for the 585....there is more bang for the buck in some other brands.
Doc

[Yellow09SERG]

Thanks Doc and Scott. I already have the 10.5 SE pistons with the 260 cam and that set up sucks. What I was looking for was reasonable price improvement. The 585 closing at 45 looked to be a big improvement from where I am and would still keep the compression where it would still run on pump gas or that was the hope anyhow....

[HD Street Performance]

I think the SE259E set a few tenths higher compression is a perfect choice for the 110 assuming you are trying to have better low speed manors and just as much charge on top.

[Yellow09SERG]

Thanks Don. Head work has got moved back some. Baker had a Black Friday special on the DD7 so motor money is now down to not much and for some reason wife thinks I owe her too being she ordered it.... Go figure

[FlaHeatWave]

yes done a couple.ill see if I can find a dyno sheet or 2 when I get in the shop.set at 10.4 to 10.6-1,the 585 is a GREAT 110 cam set

'Have the same question about the throttle bodies as yellow09 SERG in a 113.
Also interested in the 585 easy start, no more than 10.5-1 (a little less if I could get by with it) subscribed

[Yellow09SERG]

FlaHeat we seem to have crossed paths again... I hope to install tranny next week if the temp will come up enough to get to the shop with the bike

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

'Have the same question about the throttle bodies as yellow09 SERG in a 113.
Also interested in the 585 easy start, no more than 10.5-1 (a little less if I could get by with it) subscribed

Less compression will only intensify what Doc has made mention of.
If anything, push it up to 10.6-10.7............it'll still have less ccp that an OEM 110" with a 255 cam.
Scott

[FlaHeatWave]

Less compression will only intensify what Doc has made mention of.
If anything, push it up to 10.6-10.7............it'll still have less ccp that an OEM 110" with a 255 cam.
Scott

Thanks Scott,
With the c/r I was concerned about fuel quality, elevation, and detonation. Florida is great but I like to travel out West often on the '09 SERG. 

[Yellow09SERG]

If the 585 is going to leave the bottom end soft below 3000 rpm then where does a person go if they have the 10.5 pistons already? With the 585 closing at 45 I figured the CCP would be decent. How short can I get on a cam and be able to find gas when riding 2 up? Anything has got to be better than this 260SE. I think I currently cross 100ftlbs at like 3200......

[HD Street Performance]

The Tman 625 is a bull right off idle, SE259 is a very different cam than the 585 yet still pulls good power with a broad torque band. Tman 590, The Wild Things 24 others. There is a plethora of good cams and nuances separate them. The pipe choice is paramount to achieving what you want.
The S&S 585 IME has always been a pleaser in the older light bikes for guys that ride hard. In a bigger motor is calms right down

[FlaHeatWave]

If the 585 is going to leave the bottom end soft below 3000 rpm then where does a person go if they have the 10.5 pistons already? With the 585 closing at 45 I figured the CCP would be decent. How short can I get on a cam and be able to find gas when riding 2 up? Anything has got to be better than this 260SE. I think I currently cross 100ftlbs at like 3200......

I had the SE Stage III Pro Kit in the '09 and travelled from FLA (93 octane, sea level) to the West Coast (90 octane 11+k ft.) 2up and loaded and really liked the 259s / 10.5-1 at 110", very little detonation (the tune was nowhere near optimized)
Since ESP will not cover the bike unless it is returned to bone stock (no pipes, tuner, nothing) I am going with a built bottom end and want to go gear drive cams to eliminate the potential tensioner issues/maintenance.

Long story short; I really like the 259s, and want gear drive cams with the same (similar) characteristics.

IMO the 260s are not well suited to the '09SERG. 

[Yellow09SERG]

I'm not sure what the 260 are good for.....not heavy enough for a boat anchor and to heavy to throw out of sight.
From where I am now anything that I could get to cross 100 by 2500 would feel like a hot rod.
FlaHeat do you have any idea where you were on CCP?
Thank you Don for the suggestions

[FlaHeatWave]

I'm not sure what the 260 are good for.....not heavy enough for a boat anchor and to heavy to throw out of sight.
From where I am now anything that I could get to cross 100 by 2500 would feel like a hot rod.
FlaHeat do you have any idea where you were on CCP?
Thank you Don for the suggestions

I don't have a clue on the CCP, had SE 10.5 pistons, 259s stock 110 heads and stock head gasket...

[GRam]

I'm not sure what the 260 are good for.....not heavy enough for a boat anchor and to heavy to throw out of sight.
From where I am now anything that I could get to cross 100 by 2500 would feel like a hot rod.
FlaHeat do you have any idea where you were on CCP?
Thank you Don for the suggestions

Have the 259e, 10.5 SE pistons and the SE MVA heads. Breaking 100 at 2800 rpm, V&H power duals header and HO slips..
Pulls real nice now, but always looking for more, may go the woods 408-6 route with roller rockers..

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

first sheet is the stage III kit from HD with stock t/b 259 cam we swapped our 577 in place. Second sheet is the same kit but with the 58 SE t/b.




Sheet above lists ported heads. It had a nasty amount of slag in the short turn area. We did remove it and had to blen it. SO fact is it got ported.. to say that they where a fully set of ported heads would be incorrect.  Roll of the dice on stock CVO heads  

Another 10.5 kit from dealer with our cam and tune stock t/b



So in the end you can run a smaller cam with that compression and t/b I would think you power numbers will be high teens tq over 120

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Several cams, that have been around for some time will do the same/same...........

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

was showing change with t/b and cam only not stating one way or the other on what one to buy.

[CVO2FIXUP]

 What pipe is on those bikes. Just list them off if you remember. Thanx.

[Badger Mike]

I had the 585 in my stock 110, but in the gear drive set up.  Can't find the Dyno sheet ( have since put in a S&S 124), but I was very pleased with the performance through the band.  I think a lot comes down to how you ride and how much you are looking to get out of your bike.

[Yellow09SERG]

Thanks Mike. I just made a tranny change and though it didn't completely solve the problem I think I can survive till I came add cubes to my 110

[Badger Mike]

Which tranny did you go with?

[HD Street Performance]

Dyno sheets do not reflect how these bikes feel stop light to stop light and traveling on the interstate at lower speeds 2-3k RPM. The 585 below 3K is not "on cam". Overlap interferes with clean running despite a good pipe and tune. In reflection (remember I mentioned nuances and this is how they actually feel not the dyno sheet WOT from 2K up in a high gear) the Wild Things cams act like stock as does the SE259 or TR590 and when the compression is proper provide a more enjoyable ride. Both and others can all hit a number.

[FlaHeatWave]

Thanks Mike. I just made a tranny change and though it didn't completely solve the problem I think I can survive till I came add cubes to my 110

With the lower / close ratio gearing of the DD7, I would think that a cam with a little more to the right would be good to go.

From my experience with the 259s in the Stage III, a midrange cam like the 585s might be just the ticket. 'Hope the 625s going in the 113 aren't too far to the left for me, I just fell in love with the (dyno) curves of Jim's (Metal Dragon) 113...

Those 260s just aren't suited to a loaded touring bike... 

[HD Street Performance]

The 260s aren't suited for anything even if they were give to the user for free IMHO
There are some decent SE grinds that work when appropriate for the combination of parts and the users needs, those are the SE204, 259E, 263E, 266E, maybe more but that is all I have direct experience with. The TR625 is a very strong grind as are most of his are and once again they have to be matched to the parts and riders needs.
There are some that I would consider obsolete and also ran.. 251, 211, 203, 258, 257. Too many others out there, both SE and aftermarket, have just passed these up

[Yellow09SERG]

Which tranny did you go with?

Just installed a DD7 and first response to it is I love it

[Yellow09SERG]

I have to agree with you both on the SE260! As I said earlier they are worth less. To heavy to throw out of sight and to light for an anchor. But with the tranny change it works well enough. Bike has 42,000 on it and we all start to wonder about the 110 at that point in life span. I'll will probably just live with it this summer as there is no major rides planned, just the normal weekend blast through the hills of AR. Really waiting on the outcome and thoughts of FlaHeat's 113 build and what he thinks and what he would change. Bad as I hate to say it, it's still winter here and I could very well already be planning next winters projects.....lol

[Badger Mike]

I went with the DD7 as well.   

[timo482]

not to jack the thread, but jacking the thread....

to those actually using a dd7.. i need lower first and second gear desperately, usually run in 5th, use 6th once in awhile. run a 07 ultra with a TLE.. 1650 gcvwr

trikes come with 30 70 gearing - its pretty easy to go 30 - 68 on a 07 bike and use a stock belt but its a pile of work to do plus its not exactly free.

is the first on the dd7 deep enough to get near to what a 30-68 would be?

next time i do any work i plan on doing the gearing, have to take the primary completely off to do it and then have to mess with a tuner to fix the speedometer..  i have not had trouble needing reverse except two or three times and then just get off and push.

just trying to get real world thoughts.. finances are such that either one precludes the other...

to

[Yellow09SERG]

timo can't really give you an answer on the actual gear ratios but I am betting someone can. I also have a thread in the drivetrain section on the DD7 so ask the question the also. What I will tell you is that the DD7 was a one of these days I'll get one till right before Thanksgiving. A buddy of mine rides a 09 SERG that has had the DD7 installed and pulls a trailer on a regular basis. Long story short rode his bike one afternoon and OMG that lower first gear was great. Now I know the trike is a little different animal but can't help to believe the DD7 wouldn't be a great improvement.

David

[Badger Mike]

The DD7 will make a difference in the lower 2 gears.  I'll know more after my Dyno this month, but just in riding, I could tell a big difference.

[Yellow09SERG]

Even with this mismatched cam I am running there is a huge difference in the bottom end

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

We have run the 585 into the high 10.8 range for comp and it still has a soft feel down low. Larger CI that will be reduced by 117 CI its gone and that cam will rip off the lower rpm range.

[Para Bellum]

trikes come with 30 70 gearing - its pretty easy to go 30 - 68 on a 07 bike and use a stock belt but its a pile of work to do plus its not exactly free.

Timo,

What is the gearing on your '07?  30/66, or what?  I have the DD7, which I've used in a SEUC3 and an FLTRUSE, and have towed a Bushtec Turbo +2 (fairly large, heavy trailer at max load) with and without the gear change and the tranny change.

Before I put the dd7 in the SEUC, I replaced the front 32T pulley with a Tri-Glide 30T, which changed the ratio from (66/32 =) 2.0625 to (66/30 =) 2.2.  That made 1st gear (and the 5 others) 6.7% lower [(2.2 - 2.0625)/2.0625 = .0666 = 6.666% = 6.7% rounded off].  That helped markedly, but...

In comparison, the dd7 1st gear is 12% lower than our stock 1st gear, nearly twice the change of 32-66 to 30-66.  But wait! There are more benefits than that, since its top gear is still 1:1 like the Cruise-Drive.  With the "tooth loss," that meant more RPM in any gear, at any speed, than stock--enough to be noticeable when running 70 to 80 mph.  Also, since the dd7 is closer ratio between gears, there isn't as much RPM change when shifting.  I really like the effect it has on the bike; makes it much easier to get off the line, much better for slow maneuvering, and you don't get caught in the middle as much, where one gear is too low but the next one is too high.

The only dd7 drawback so far is that cruise control works only in 7th.  Apparently there is a fix for this with TTS (which I have) and Daytona tuners, but we haven't zeroed in on exactly how to do it.

Hope this helps.  Sorry for the 

Bryce

[FlaHeatWave]

Timo,

What is the gearing on your '07?  30/66, or what?  I have the DD7, which I've used in a SEUC3 and an FLTRUSE, and have towed a Bushtec Turbo +2 (fairly large, heavy trailer at max load) with and without the gear change and the tranny change.

Before I put the dd7 in the SEUC, I replaced the front 32T pulley with a Tri-Glide 30T, which changed the ratio from (66/32 =) 2.0625 to (66/30 =) 2.2.  That made 1st gear (and the 5 others) 6.7% lower [(2.2 - 2.0625)/2.0625 = .0666 = 6.666% = 6.7% rounded off].  That helped markedly, but...

In comparison, the dd7 1st gear is 12% lower than our stock 1st gear, nearly twice the change of 32-66 to 30-66.  But wait! There are more benefits than that, since its top gear is still 1:1 like the Cruise-Drive.  With the "tooth loss," that meant more RPM in any gear, at any speed, than stock--enough to be noticeable when running 70 to 80 mph.  Also, since the dd7 is closer ratio between gears, there isn't as much RPM change when shifting.  I really like the effect it has on the bike; makes it much easier to get off the line, much better for slow maneuvering, and you don't get caught in the middle as much, where one gear is too low but the next one is too high.

The only dd7 drawback so far is that cruise control works only in 7th.  Apparently there is a fix for this with TTS (which I have) and Daytona tuners, but we haven't zeroed in on exactly how to do it.

Hope this helps.  Sorry for the 

Bryce

Also, since the dd7 is closer ratio between gears, there isn't as much RPM change when shifting.  I really like the effect it has on the bike; makes it much easier to get off the line, much better for slow maneuvering, and you don't get caught in the middle as much, where one gear is too low but the next one is too high.

I really noticed this when I was in the mountains out west last year with the CruiseDrive.

[Steve Cole]

DoubleCoppers

You will need to change the primary Ratio in your Mastertune if its a J1850 bike. The stock setting will be 1.353 and you need to change it to ~1.430 for the DD7 to work. The people that have done this tell us that the cruise now works in 5 - 7th and some say it also works in 4th.

[Yellow09SERG]

Forget the thread jack....lol. I think I am the op on this one and we are learning and getting smarter.... Isn't that what we are here for?
David

[timo482]

i appreciate it... thanks

the subject is TQ & HP... a HUGE factor in how we "perceive" tq and hp is gearing. 07 and 08 bikes are way way too tall geared. top that off with running a TLE on the bike and my empty wt is more than most guys loaded wt - and I'm near 400 and my wife is @)) so it just SUCKS getting it moving, however i only use 6th running with no passenger with no headwind, its useful then, but just barely useful i don't run 6 very often, possibly 5% of the time.

is it hard on the trans to run it hundreds and hundreds of miles in 5th.. i keep thinking its a bad idea to have to run in 5th???

just adding cubes - or cams - or whatnot and it will still be horrible at stop signs, especially uphill, and those mods are a pile of cash and need a tuner - no gain for me..

what is the fly in the ointment all around is that to make any of these mods work properly i need to get tts to manage the cruise control, or manage the final drive so the spedo is not radically off. if i do a dd7 and cruise won't work in 6th and since i currently often run long periods in 5th gear at high speed due to the gearing being way too tall no cruise is a hassle. - i could see ending up doing a dd7 and a 31 - 68 gearing.. thats spending as much cash as possible at one time on gears..... <grin>  gets distatestfull like chasing a rainbow..

the motivation to go 30 68 is that its pretty close to current tri glide ratio and they are pretty close to the same wt... and tts does not have to be done on the same day or even the same year and it will run right other than the speedo being way way off.

the other thing about changing pulleys is the belts - stock belts seem to be superior to aftermarket belts.. going down on one and up on the other *should* result in a belt that fits. and there is a 68 ids pulley in the catalog that will fit a 07. [well its not obvious, but it IS there]

a dd7 will provide almost the same ratio in first that a tri glide has in first [if my math is not completely faulty] and use a stock belt and leave the speedo working properly. the belt and pully route is 800 in parts - plus tts to fix the speedo is 1300. a dd7 is 2300 - so it has to be a "better" solution to be worth the extra cash.

no good answers here - all that said the next item on the list is lifters, enough miles that i really should do lifters - ill borrow a boroscope and look down through the bores and see if there are any reasons to take the cover off - with a  hd sidecar its a HUGE job to take the side cover off. if nothing is found in the cam case needing money its a really cheap job to change the lifter, take the tank off, a couple covers and out come the pushrods.. swap and put it back together. if anything is found bad in the cam case - well that gets done and the gearing will get put off till next winter.

the world changed, the bike is paid for - I'm going to keep it a while - gearing is really the ONLY irritant to date.

to

[Para Bellum]

DoubleCoppers

You will need to change the primary Ratio in your Mastertune if its a J1850 bike. The stock setting will be 1.353 and you need to change it to ~1.430 for the DD7 to work. The people that have done this tell us that the cruise now works in 5 - 7th and some say it also works in 4th.

Steve,

Good info, and many thanks for that.  It is J1850, and I'd be happy with 5 - 7 cruise.

Bryce

Forget the thread jack....lol. I think I am the op on this one and we are learning and getting smarter.... Isn't that what we are here for?
David

 

[Yellow09SERG]

i appreciate it... thanks

the subject is TQ & HP... a HUGE factor in how we "perceive" tq and hp is gearing. 07 and 08 bikes are way way too tall geared. top that off with running a TLE on the bike and my empty wt is more than most guys loaded wt - and I'm near 400 and my wife is @)) so it just SUCKS getting it moving, however i only use 6th running with no passenger with no headwind, its useful then, but just barely useful i don't run 6 very often, possibly 5% of the time.

is it hard on the trans to run it hundreds and hundreds of miles in 5th.. i keep thinking its a bad idea to have to run in 5th???

just adding cubes - or cams - or whatnot and it will still be horrible at stop signs, especially uphill, and those mods are a pile of cash and need a tuner - no gain for me..

what is the fly in the ointment all around is that to make any of these mods work properly i need to get tts to manage the cruise control, or manage the final drive so the spedo is not radically off. if i do a dd7 and cruise won't work in 6th and since i currently often run long periods in 5th gear at high speed due to the gearing being way too tall no cruise is a hassle. - i could see ending up doing a dd7 and a 31 - 68 gearing.. thats spending as much cash as possible at one time on gears..... <grin>  gets distatestfull like chasing a rainbow..

the motivation to go 30 68 is that its pretty close to current tri glide ratio and they are pretty close to the same wt... and tts does not have to be done on the same day or even the same year and it will run right other than the speedo being way way off.

the other thing about changing pulleys is the belts - stock belts seem to be superior to aftermarket belts.. going down on one and up on the other *should* result in a belt that fits. and there is a 68 ids pulley in the catalog that will fit a 07. [well its not obvious, but it IS there]

a dd7 will provide almost the same ratio in first that a tri glide has in first [if my math is not completely faulty] and use a stock belt and leave the speedo working properly. the belt and pully route is 800 in parts - plus tts to fix the speedo is 1300. a dd7 is 2300 - so it has to be a "better" solution to be worth the extra cash.

no good answers here - all that said the next item on the list is lifters, enough miles that i really should do lifters - ill borrow a boroscope and look down through the bores and see if there are any reasons to take the cover off - with a  hd sidecar its a HUGE job to take the side cover off. if nothing is found in the cam case needing money its a really cheap job to change the lifter, take the tank off, a couple covers and out come the pushrods.. swap and put it back together. if anything is found bad in the cam case - well that gets done and the gearing will get put off till next winter.

the world changed, the bike is paid for - I'm going to keep it a while - gearing is really the ONLY irritant to date.

to

timo you might jump over on the DD7 thread in the drivetrain section too. There is a lot of discussion there also about the cruise

[FlaHeatWave]

It's interesting how the operating range of the power plant, the gearing, even the tires, all come into play on our vehicles, and what we want out of them.

The MoCo's adjustment to recent emissions regs. reminds me of the early '70s autos...

[Yellow09SERG]

Yes it takes a balance of all for us to be happy, and then if you ask my wife she will tell you all about how HD has stopped making the best seat ever! But that's a whole different story

[Snowyone]

I did the 124S&S with the ported 110 heads and at the same time did the DD7.  I think for money spent and if starting over would do the DD7 first and think about the motor later.  I like it that well.  I don't really notice having to shift through another gear and with the motor don't really need to shift much but the ratios are so nicely spaced and first gear is such a blessing for parking lot maneuvers and close quarter work.  Now the cam I went with a Woods 408-6 which could be a good choice.  Some moan about a little valvetrain noise but my roller rockers make more noise than the cam using woods lifters.  Maybe I was lucky but I've no complaint and the cam is a torque monster that comes on in the low 2000 range.  No dyno work yet, just using the Power Vision, so all remarks are by butt dyno and mountain pass.

[ltank]

I have a S&S V111 with a 585 cam I find it has great power. Have over 45k miles in just over 2 years with. No problems. Has good power at all RPM. On a 580 pound FXR4