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[KVSteve]

That's right. Your numbers are waaay low!!

Does anyone know if Harley publishes crank or rear wheel numbers for their stock motor performance?

I guess being new to the bike and HD it feels strong to me but I really have nothing to compare.
Riding with the 110 guy I could easily out muscle him so figured it must be decent:(
It's disturbing the dealer mechanic thought it was impressive. He did say to me "don't go by the dyno, go by how it feels" which I thought odd.

How does a stock 110 or 103 compare on dyno base runs with the published HD plots... Wonder if they are typically low as well?

Not sure how to approach them, I can take the published stock 117 dyno plot to them and demand they make it similar but are they obligated to do so? Will HD work with them to approach the published spec?

TTS tuner is out (at least for now) as the whole idea was keep the warranty.
I would pay a Indy shop to tune it but without a TTS it's pretty much a waste.

[KVSteve]

I just pulled 100hp and 111tq out of a stock 110 with Vance and Hines power duals and OS 450's. There is a huge dip in your torque curve between 2000 and 2500 RPM. It will be night and day with a good tune.

What was your base numbers before tune?
Did you use a TTS?

[fastfreddy]

this can all play out to your advantage, find a indy that can tune with the TTS and can help you under stand the process on how to reinstall your dealer tune, then you will have the best of both worlds...a proper tune and factory warranty. congrats on the new ride   

[HD Street Performance]

Or if using the Power Vision the two cam be easily toggled.

[TJAH]

You have a good start.

Unfortunately the results are junk at the moment and something is not right.
Most likely it is the tune, which is embarrassingly bad.
I'd do a compression test and if the result is fine, I'd look for an alternative tune.

A flash tuner gets the best out of the build.
I'd like to ask the tuners here, if they would do a PC-V tune on the bike until the
warranty is not an issue anymore ? Since the PC-V is a Piggy Pack tuner, it would
just hook to the existing ECM and not interfere with the dealer flash, if that is the
owner's wish ?

I know this is not the best way to tune the bike, but most anything must be better than
the hack from this dealer. I can't believe they were complimenting the outcome ?

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

PC V is just as bad it doe not speak the same language so your timing ( extremely important ) is not speed density but alpha N , so that fubar from the start..  Dealer built it let them handle it .. That is not even close to what it should make and they know it, The real deal is that thought the customer  would accept it  the final part remains to be seen ..

[KVSteve]

PC V is just as bad it doe not speak the same language so your timing ( extremely important ) is not speed density but alpha N , so that fubar from the start..  Dealer built it let them handle it .. That is not even close to what it should make and they know it, The real deal is that thought the customer  would accept it  the final part remains to be seen ..

Yea steve, I feel like they played it up so they didn't have to dig deeper than the mediocre outcome. The comment "don't go by the dyno" sounded odd to me for sure.
I will call them Monday and see what can be done. All I can do is expect that the get it to be more like Harley's plot shows.

[CowboyBagger]

It's pretty obvious your dealer, like most, does not have the trained techs to tune your bike.  I would not count on them ever getting it right.

Bikes I've had:

CVO Breakout
   Stock 110
   D&D Lowcat 2 into 1
   TTS Mastertune:  97/114

CVO Streetglide
   Tman 555 cam
   Drago's 2 into 1
   TTS Mastertune:  108/118

CVO Streetglide
   Tman 600 cam
   Tman Ported Heads
   SE 10.5 Pistons
   58 mm Throttle Body
   Darkhorse Bottom End
   Drago's 2 into 1
   TTs Mastertune:  119/124

Your 117 with the right cam and exhaust should be above mine.

Maybe a trip to Ft. Worth is in order.  Steve would get it right and you'd be a happy camper.

Sometimes a guy has to stop, simplify life and take out the trash.  That normally also saves money, I've learned.

Cowboy

[Para Bellum]

KV,

There are several red flags in the dyno printout.  The first is that they only did 3 runs (Run File 003); that tells me they are just using some of MoCo's canned downloads, and not even tweaking them to get optimum results.  A real tuner would probably have 10 to 20 runs to get the best results, and it would show, say, Run File 018 for example.  The 2nd problem is the dyno graph doesn't show the AFR (Air Fuel Ratio), so you don't know if it's so lean it's burning valves, so wastefully rich it's laying down a solid layer of carbon in the combustion chamber, or varying wildly from one to the other.

It's not just that the numbers are low--very low, in fact--but also the graph shows the 3rd (and presumably last) run, Run file 003, is lower numbers than the 2nd run (002), although the shape of 002 is better.  Usually the last run of tuning is the finished product, and is the map you end up with.  So I have to wonder if they switched back to the download used for run #2, or left in the 3rd run download.  The bottom line is that, either way, since they weren't dazzling you with brilliance, they went for baffling you with BS ("Go by the feel, not by the numbers").

As noted by Cowboy Bagger, GMR, TJAH, and others, this is an embarrassingly bad and disgusting download (can't really call it a tune, because...they didn't).  As for your question

Does anyone know if Harley publishes crank or rear wheel numbers for their stock motor performance?

, HD's numbers are at the crank, but even the roughly 10% loss in the drivetrain doesn't produce p-poor results like this.

Here's the thing:  The guys on this forum aren't trying to make you feel bad; it's that a lot of guys here have in-depth knowledge and experience, are willing to share, and don't like seeing dealers use their so-called knowledge to take advantage of riders.  The truth is that 90+% of dealers don't know jack about good tuning, so they use the MoCo's canned downloads so they can fall back on the "it's the approved tune for this kit."

When you go talk to this dealer, you are going to find out if they are one that actually tries to satisfy the customer and do the best possible, or if they are another of the mediocre pump-and-dump dealers that relies on "that's normal" or "they all do that" to hide their ignorance and/or their DILLIGAF attitude.  You won't know until you take this issue to them and see what they do.  My hope is that they'll try to make it right for you.

OK.  Off my  now.

[FLSTFI Dave]

KVSteve

As you have been told those are not good numbers for a 117.  My 2105 with a Fullsac DX head pipe, and Fullsac 2.25 muffler cores and a TTS tuner properly tuned has better numbers and a much better torque curve.  It's 114.6 Torque and 97.5 HP.  There is no dip down low where you ride.  Most spend their time between 2400 and 3100 RPM so a dip there is not good.  This bike is a 110, all stock except the changes above.

A 110 with the 259E will make significantly more power.  See my signature for my build on the 13 CVOKing.  Pretty much everything in your 117 kit except its still 110 inches, and has head work.  122 HP and 121 Torque, SAE 5 smoothing.  100 torque by 2500 rpm, 110 torque by 2.75 rpm.

You bike with the bigger cubic inch should have more torque than I do on my 110.

[North Star]

Dont think you responded- which dealer is this?

[KVSteve]

Dont think you responded- which dealer is this?

Missed that...
Motosport Plus, Kingston On.

[KVSteve]

There are several red flags in the dyno printout.  The first is that they only did 3 runs (Run File 003); that tells me they are just using some of MoCo's canned downloads,
OK.  Off my  now.

Ya that's exactly what they did, canned D/L.
Not sure what else they could do without a tuner (which they insisted would void warranty).

... the 3rd (and presumably last) run, Run file 003, is lower numbers than the 2nd run (002), although the shape of 002 is better.  Usually the last run of tuning is the finished product, and is the map you end up with.  So I have to wonder if they switched back to the download used for run #2, or left in the 3rd run download.  The bottom line is that, either way, since they weren't dazzling you with brilliance, they went for baffling you with BS ("Go by the feel, not by the numbers").

That' is odd, didn't notice till you pointed it out.
no idea how they pick the canned D/L, if HD helps or if they just go to a database and it's trial and error (mostly error obviously).
I'd expect they should have been able to get pretty close to the factory numbers for this kit in this plot (attached) if they had the same d/l.
Of course this would be with SE header/slip ons so with the cat converter.

Btw, I noticed on closer inspection of that HD polt is does say corrected for rear wheel TQ & HP on the sidebars.

Here's the thing:  The guys on this forum aren't trying to make you feel bad; it's that a lot of guys here have in-depth knowledge and experience, are willing to share, and don't like seeing dealers use their so-called knowledge to take advantage of riders.  The truth is that 90+% of dealers don't know jack about good tuning, so they use the MoCo's canned downloads so they can fall back on the "it's the approved tune for this kit."

I'm expecting this is true here. But why have a Dyno and nobody that can tune other than a stock D/L?

I know the easy way to fix this is buy the TTS and take it to a tuner, I'm sure even a half decent tuner will be able to blow thier canned result away.

[KVSteve]

Speaking of Dynos....

Found a local guy that has a "Mustang Dyno" which he says is load cell based as opposed to Dynojet Inertia design.
Not sure the difference but he says his machine usually dyno a bit less on his than other places due to differences in the machines?

Also, he asked me what the numbers were "uncorrected", what does that mean?
He's saying that "corrected" numbers can be tweaked to seem better than the real numbers.

Thanks

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

A DJ can not be tweaked with a setting this is a old deal where SF and others made a DJ correction factor.. Local shops have mustang super flow and they show stupid high numbers.. I get those same bikes on the drum and the numbers on my DJ are right in line with the " other brand stating they read low" numbers ..  Example SF showing the DJ correction factor 105 hp and 118 tq when in fact his normal numbers where 94/107  on my drum it made 93/108 so thats more than close.  The numbers game is old .. In fact I heard that a few where saying that Win 8 read higher than win 7 and thats the reason that we had better numbers ,  that is until the same kit we built and tuned here was run in another state built by another shop and tuned on win 7 .. within 1/1

I would tell you to get it tuned correctly stick with a DJ to be able to compare the numbers more accurately. and just ride it .