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[RedDevil]

Red...when I worked in the trades (commercial/industrial HVAC/Energy Management...for over 18 years), I could see the pride in workmanship fading away during that time period.  Everybody makes mistakes, and it's unrealistic to expect perfection all the time, in every application.  But working for a large institution as I have for the past 30 years, I'll have to say that the "I don't give a chit" attitude is much more prevalent today than it was when I started.  I can't tell you how many contractors I've had to go behind and fix their screw-ups...it's easier to just fix it than to fight with them to come back and do it right.  I think Unions CAN be good for their workers, but they can also help perpetuate complacency, poor work ethics, and poor quality control.  Both management AND the Union should hold workers accountable for poor work habits.

One would think that the workers who have the privilege of building HD's best, most expensive product would be the most skilled, best attitude, and be the most prideful in the product they are putting out the door since those workers are completely responsible for every component going on our bikes.  But how much do you want to bet me that the main determining factor in getting one of those jobs is seniority?  Just because someone's been working somewhere for 20 years doesn't mean doodley squat.  Yes, it should be ONE factor in bidding on a particular job, but not the MAIN factor.  In this particular case, even if the engine was built somewhere else and simply installed, at some point in time...when putting the special cover on, throttle cables...some damn time, somebody had the opportunity to see that gasket, did so, and just didn't give a chit because there are no consequences.

I made a joke about it because it's either that or get pissed off...since no harm was really done in this case, might as well just laugh about it.  The other issues people are having with paint, etc are NOT a laughing matter at all.

Terry,
You put it much more eloquently than I did and explained it alot better.  There has got to be a way to bring "American Pride" back to what it was.  It's a shame that something that's made in China, has better quality control than something that says "Made in U.S.A".  That doesn't necessarily hold true for the small U.S. businesses, but it definitely is in the large industrial complex.   You look at the amount of recalls for American vehicles vice the European and Japanese, and the lack of pride in their work is evident.  And you're right, we all complain about the quality, but yet we all go back and buy from them again...as long as the bottom line is not affected, they will continue doing what they do.  I think it's sad that we've accepted the fact that Harley's are going to have problems.  I never thought that when I had my metric bike.  But will I ever own a metric bike again?  No, I'm Black and Orange inside and out.  I'll always be HD.
Cheers ,
Red

[RedDevil]

It all comes down to the promises that these corporations make to their shareholders. Returns to the shareholder and financial ratings are their number 1 priority, not the quality of their product! It's important to get product out on time. Their attitude is to get it out the door, on time! If it's cheaper to fix it under w....ty, then it will knowingly go out broken. Maybe the end user won't pick up the problem. Otherwise we'll fix it. Priority is placed on production numbers, not quality. It's not always the workers! Management is quite aware of the quality issues, but their bonuses might be based on quantity, not quality! Many factors go into how a product goes out the door. But a quality, defect-free product is unfortunately not the driving force behind the products we see! It's the new, corporate way these days. Get used to it with everything that's made by large corporations. It's gonna get worse! Hoist!

Howie,
I agree that that attitude is prevelant in the American industrial complex.  But it's definitely not in the Japanese.  Toyota is the number one, revenue-wise (GM still holds the numbers), auto manufacturer in the world, but look at their quality/recall rate compared to GM, Ford, or Chrysler.  Honda is the worlds largest manufacturer of motorcycles, and people don't expect to get a bike with pre-loaded, poor quality control problems built in.  And look where a majority of these products are now manufactured, right here in the good old USA, with US non-unionized labor.  It boils down to rewarding your people for doing a good job, and holding them accountable for doing a poor or unacceptable job.  Half-a$$ed, regardless of the numbers, should never be an acceptable practice.  That reflects directly on the company and it's people.  (But yet, I wouldn't drive anything but a Harley... )
Cheers ,
Red

[Chief]

If you're a HOG stockholder, please raise your hand.

We are the people putting the pressure on management to get it out the door quick and turn a good profit so my earnings go up and I can make money.

I don't want to hear you say you're cutting back production to address recent quality problems. If you say that, I'm going to dump this stock quick and look to pick it up again when it bottoms out.

I want you to make money for me by doing whatever you have to do to make monster profits and keep the stock price climbing.

Oh, but wait a minute. I also you to take the time to ensure the product that is going out the door is perfect, and don't bitch and lie to me when I want you to fix the inevitable screw-up. I want you to spend some of your record profits to take care of me and my problem.

I'm sorry, we can't have it both ways. Hoist is dead on. Corporations are here for one reason only, and that is to make money. The product is only the tool they use to make the money.

I'm sorry if this pi$$es some people off, but this is just the way it is. WE are the only ones who can change this. The only way we can have ANY effect is to stop buying the product, which hurts profits, pi$$es off stockholders, and gets management's attention. If we don't do that, we're just greasing the wheel with our $30k+ each.

But for me. I knew this going in and willingly forked over the $ and took what they gave me. It's a game, and now it's my move.

Chief

[Hoist!]

Howie,
I agree that that attitude is prevelant in the American industrial complex.  But it's definitely not in the Japanese.  Toyota is the number one, revenue-wise (GM still holds the numbers), auto manufacturer in the world, but look at their quality/recall rate compared to GM, Ford, or Chrysler.  Honda is the worlds largest manufacturer of motorcycles, and people don't expect to get a bike with pre-loaded, poor quality control problems built in.  And look where a majority of these products are now manufactured, right here in the good old USA, with US non-unionized labor.  It boils down to rewarding your people for doing a good job, and holding them accountable for doing a poor or unacceptable job.  Half-a$$ed, regardless of the numbers, should never be an acceptable practice.  That reflects directly on the company and it's people.  (But yet, I wouldn't drive anything but a Harley... )
Cheers ,
Red

And that's a shame Red! Incentives for quality and volume must be clear goals to the responsible management parties. Obviously the Japanese system places more emphasis on quality than American Corporations do. I see it firsthand in my industry. Unfortunately all the competitors are also American Corps. too. There's little incentive on DOA failures vs. production numbers. They fix it in the field instead of on the line!

Chief is 100% correct. Poor quality will only change if it affects the share holder, not the end user! That's the Corporate American way! We make our choices. That's one reason this site exists. We all know well in advance, what to do to get our bikes the way we should have received in the first place, for the price we pay. We know upfront that they won't be right! But we also know, there's only one HD, and we accept that and do what we have to. We love our HD's but sometimes you gotta say, FTF!

Hoist!

[RedDevil]

If you're a HOG stockholder, please raise your hand.

We are the people putting the pressure on management to get it out the door quick and turn a good profit so my earnings go up and I can make money.

I don't want to hear you say you're cutting back production to address recent quality problems. If you say that, I'm going to dump this stock quick and look to pick it up again when it bottoms out.

I want you to make money for me by doing whatever you have to do to make monster profits and keep the stock price climbing.

Oh, but wait a minute. I also you to take the time to ensure the product that is going out the door is perfect, and don't bitch and lie to me when I want you to fix the inevitable screw-up. I want you to spend some of your record profits to take care of me and my problem.

I'm sorry, we can't have it both ways. Hoist is dead on. Corporations are here for one reason only, and that is to make money. The product is only the tool they use to make the money.

I'm sorry if this pi$$es some people off, but this is just the way it is. WE are the only ones who can change this. The only way we can have ANY effect is to stop buying the product, which hurts profits, pi$$es off stockholders, and gets management's attention. If we don't do that, we're just greasing the wheel with our $30k+ each.

But for me. I knew this going in and willingly forked over the $ and took what they gave me. It's a game, and now it's my move.

Chief

Chief,
You're absolutely right, but there are many corporations that are publicly traded, that still manage to put out quality products. I'm not saying Harley isn't a quality product, but there are other public traded companies out there that we buy their product and don't expect it to have problems or issues from day one.   I don't know maybe I'm too picky or expect too much ... I've been fortunate, so far with my Jester, the only problem I have with it is an excessive whine in 5th gear, and my dealer has told me to bring it down the next good-weather day I can so they hear it and hopefully address it.  So maybe it's all the old "squeeky wheel gets the grease" thing.  Maybe, in the overall picture, these problems are minor or sporadic, and we only think there are a lot because we only read about the ones that have the problems.  I don't know. 
Cheers ,
Red

[skippy]

You need to send pic of that to MOCO

[rubaga]

I buy HD by heart rather then by mind. I buy it for the dream, brand etc. not technology or even quality of assembly. I buy it because of colors and because of chrome. I buy CVO because I need to upgrade some performance related things buy not the way it would look - all the chrome I am happy with. I buy it because a lot of things can be added to it.

What do I understand. Beemer (LT) or Honda (GW) is probably more comfortable and more technologically advanced. But this is brain not psychology. These bikes are good and fast and I do not want that. I want to be slow to see things around. I want to be forced off the autobahn or highway into the side road. I can not do that with the bike which will not go less then 140.

Do I mind if my HD falls apart. I do but not really if it is not dangerous for me or too costly to fix.

The only thing I hope is that it would not be dangerous.

Uff. Sorry for a long one.

[Chief]

Chief,
You're absolutely right, but there are many corporations that are publicly traded, that still manage to put out quality products. I'm not saying Harley isn't a quality product, but there are other public traded companies out there that we buy their product and don't expect it to have problems or issues from day one.   I don't know maybe I'm too picky or expect too much ... I've been fortunate, so far with my Jester, the only problem I have with it is an excessive whine in 5th gear, and my dealer has told me to bring it down the next good-weather day I can so they hear it and hopefully address it.  So maybe it's all the old "squeeky wheel gets the grease" thing.  Maybe, in the overall picture, these problems are minor or sporadic, and we only think there are a lot because we only read about the ones that have the problems.  I don't know. 
Cheers ,
Red

Please believe me, I don't think its the way it should be, but the reality of the situation is that HD is making money hand over fist, and we keep throwing fistfulls of the stuff at them every year. Until demand drops off, I just don't see them adopting a Quality Is Job 1 type of program like Ford did, because people buy their bikes based on emotion, not reason.

Harley has no "REAL" competition. They are the real thing, and while the imports may actually be better bikes, there are still enough diehards out there to keep the wheels churning. The Harley crowd is getting older, and the next 10 years should get real interesting. Harley may find itself having to compete like they never have had to before.

I haven't had any major problem with either of my Dressers. My new one is awesome, much better than the last. But I have found my fair share of loose fasteners and other little stuff. I expected it, and took care of it.

I'm a happy customer.

As far as that 5th gear whine, kind of reminds of revese in the Civic I used to drive, but not as loud. Mine also has a neat / funky sound at a stop, almost like a dry primary, or something like that. I think its kind of cool sounding.

It's all good to me.

Chief

[SEULTRA]

Terry,
You put it much more eloquently than I did and explained it alot better.   There has got to be a way to bring "American Pride" back to what it was.  It's a shame that something that's made in China, has better quality control than something that says "Made in U.S.A".  That doesn't necessarily hold true for the small U.S. businesses, but it definitely is in the large industrial complex.   You look at the amount of recalls for American vehicles vice the European and Japanese, and the lack of pride in their work is evident.  And you're right, we all complain about the quality, but yet we all go back and buy from them again...as long as the bottom line is not affected, they will continue doing what they do.  I think it's sad that we've accepted the fact that Harley's are going to have problems.  I never thought that when I had my metric bike.  But will I ever own a metric bike again?  No, I'm Black and Orange inside and out.  I'll always be HD.
Cheers ,
Red

Red,
I said the same thing until I forked over $35K of my hard earned cash for a CVO only to have to FIGHT for over 6 months to get the MOCO to make the paint right (they ALMOST did). Kinda bursted that "Black & Orange" bubble I was living in. I hope you never have to go through what the 2006 milk dud owners have had to endure. If you do, chances are you'll look at things a bit differently.

[Twolanerider]

I buy HD by heart rather then by mind. I buy it for the dream, brand etc. not technology or even quality of assembly. I buy it because of colors and because of chrome. I buy CVO because I need to upgrade some performance related things buy not the way it would look - all the chrome I am happy with. I buy it because a lot of things can be added to it.

What do I understand. Beemer (LT) or Honda (GW) is probably more comfortable and more technologically advanced. But this is brain not psychology. These bikes are good and fast and I do not want that. I want to be slow to see things around. I want to be forced off the autobahn or highway into the side road. I can not do that with the bike which will not go less then 140.

Do I mind if my HD falls apart. I do but not really if it is not dangerous for me or too costly to fix.

The only thing I hope is that it would not be dangerous.

Uff. Sorry for a long one.

Damn, just when we think we might generate the will or wisdom to look somewhere other than HD's hubris there comes the perfectly reasoned explanation of why we do what we do; and will most likely continue to do so.  Spasiba.  Nicely said.

[rubaga]

Reading what I just came up again I sort of see a certain humor in the fact that I am not american.... 

[Twolanerider]

Reading what I just came up again I sort of see a certain humor in the fact that I am not american.... 

Had much the same thought.  Never know whether it's same answers for different reasons or whether kindred spirits are more universal than we might give ourselves credit for sometimes.

[Lean Dave]

GOD BLESS THIS SITE AND ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO CAN REALLY TELL THEIR STORIES ON WHAT REALLY GOES ON WITH OUR HD BIKES. 

BIG DAVE

[Rooster]

  This is such a sad story, and Rooster I am so sorry it had to happen to you.  What can possibly be coming out of the factory if this is missed - first by the one who did it wrong, and all the Quality Controls steps that follow.  But to do it wrong in the first place and go on to the next project knowing full well that this is not going to perform the right way. I am so glad you did not wait 1000 miles to discover it. You know, when I got my bike I was so excited I actaully waited a little over 1200 miles before it got it's first service.  It seems that everyone has to take their new bikes and go over them with a fine tooth comb.  Sorry again to hear this. 

Thank You MrsWeCVO, you are very kind

[Rooster]

Terry,
You put it much more eloquently than I did and explained it alot better.  There has got to be a way to bring "American Pride" back to what it was.  It's a shame that something that's made in China, has better quality control than something that says "Made in U.S.A".  That doesn't necessarily hold true for the small U.S. businesses, but it definitely is in the large industrial complex.   You look at the amount of recalls for American vehicles vice the European and Japanese, and the lack of pride in their work is evident.  And you're right, we all complain about the quality, but yet we all go back and buy from them again...as long as the bottom line is not affected, they will continue doing what they do.  I think it's sad that we've accepted the fact that Harley's are going to have problems.  I never thought that when I had my metric bike.  But will I ever own a metric bike again?  No, I'm Black and Orange inside and out.  I'll always be HD.
Cheers ,
Red

Red, I hear you loud and clear. I also rode metric for many years. But there is something about Harley that keeps me coming back. I just wish they would be as loyal to us as we are to them. It is hard to believe that these people building Harley's finest motorcycles don't share the same feeling as the people that are willing to spend the extra $$'s to own one of these so called special machines.