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Author Topic: Harley union...  (Read 1691 times)

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muddypaws

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Harley union...
« on: March 28, 2019, 07:44:32 AM »

Harley-Davidson employees stage protests days before their union contract expires
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2019, 07:46:46 AM »

Harley-Davidson employees stage protests days before their union contract expires
Protest or informational picketing? Got a link to the source?

Our Union keeps having us do informational picketing when it gets close to contract time and talks seem to be going nowhere.
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muddypaws

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2019, 08:06:16 AM »

Lowest sales in 8 years. My guess is the negotiations will not go well...
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2019, 08:27:51 AM »

Most likely not.  HD may offer to charge their employees a fee to park in the employee parking lot as a negotiation tactic.
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2019, 08:41:39 AM »

Lowest sales in 8 years. My guess is the negotiations will not go well...

Considering the fact that the workers got screwed on the last contract even though Harley was still making decent profits at the time, I would guess they will really get screwed this time.  Such is the current state of labor in this country.  When times are good, management and stockholders get most of the rewards.  When times are tough, upper management still manages to get rewarded and the workforce takes it in the ear.  The lesson to be learned is to make sure you're a member of upper management, not labor and lower management. 

Jerry
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2019, 08:45:29 AM »

Protest or informational picketing? Got a link to the source?

Our Union keeps having us do informational picketing when it gets close to contract time and talks seem to be going nowhere.

Sounds like CWA... :nixweiss:
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2019, 10:43:51 AM »

Sounds like CWA... :nixweiss:
Exactly.

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2019, 11:50:53 AM »

Based on company performance, labor doesn't have a strong negotiating stance.  They'll be lucky to keep the workers they have now on the payroll.  I'm not sure how labor could expect more compensation - they'll be lucky if they can keep what they have.
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hogsty

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2019, 03:17:05 PM »

I never saw anybody picketing in Thailand. 

No wonder they are moving manufacturing overseas.

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2019, 09:00:06 PM »

Considering the fact that the workers got screwed on the last contract even though Harley was still making decent profits at the time, I would guess they will really get screwed this time.  Such is the current state of labor in this country.  When times are good, management and stockholders get most of the rewards.  When times are tough, upper management still manages to get rewarded and the workforce takes it in the ear.  The lesson to be learned is to make sure you're a member of upper management, not labor and lower management. 

Jerry

Right now, labor market is doing very well, better than it has in 14 years or more.  The amount of Manufacturing is going way up also, many plants are expanding and hiring.  Wages are going up in Manufacturing also.  I know every car parts manufacturer and both VW and Nissan are hiring in my area.

That said, Harley is doing the opposite as the rest of manufacturing.  Harley sales are way down.  Production is way down.  They will be lucky to keep their jobs.  The blame is not only Harley Managements, but also the board of directors, and investors.  They did not plan for the rapid decline in sales due to Boomers dying and also deciding the cost of the product has gone up way to high.

HD needs less employees, and less production space, and reduced output.
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smkymtnboy

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2019, 10:54:24 PM »

Right now, labor market is doing very well, better than it has in 14 years or more.  The amount of Manufacturing is going way up also, many plants are expanding and hiring.  Wages are going up in Manufacturing also.  I know every car parts manufacturer and both VW and Nissan are hiring in my area.

That said, Harley is doing the opposite as the rest of manufacturing.  Harley sales are way down.  Production is way down.  They will be lucky to keep their jobs.  The blame is not only Harley Managements, but also the board of directors, and investors.  They did not plan for the rapid decline in sales due to Boomers dying and also deciding the cost of the product has gone up way to high.

HD needs less employees, and less production space, and reduced output.
nailed it!
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muddypaws

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2019, 01:44:46 PM »

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2019, 03:11:30 PM »

Good googally goobs, they rejected a guaranteed 14% increase over the next 5 years, $2,250 signing bonus, no increase in healthcare costs/coverage and retirement incentives for eligible to retire?  Even with the downturn in motorcycle sales, they got this contract offer.  My, my, my...sounds like a great contract to me but what do I know... :nixweiss:

Looks like the machinist and aerospace union were the smart ones...they accepted it. 
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iski

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2019, 03:15:37 PM »

"Harley is scheduled to announce the results of its first quarter of 2019 on April 23. Earlier, the company said it expected to ship between 217,000 and 222,000 bikes this year, the lowest in eight years as the motorcycle industry remains stuck in low gear."

HD may rethink it's offer after the 1st Quarter numbers come out.  Downward.
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2019, 03:18:59 PM »

I have never understood why union workers always want to strike when it’s obvious to anyone who walks into a dealership can see that sales aren’t doing well. The moco is already offering $33 an hour for screwing nuts and bolts together. I could teach a chimpanzee to do that for a stalk of bananas and the quality of work wouldn’t be any worse. Those workers are lucky to have a job as it is and the permanent layoffs are just around the corner.

STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES! at least winter is over and they can get their exercise walking the picket in shorts and Harley t-shirts....
« Last Edit: April 02, 2019, 03:21:58 PM by King Glide »
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2019, 06:50:19 PM »

Good googally goobs, they rejected a guaranteed 14% increase over the next 5 years, $2,250 signing bonus, no increase in healthcare costs/coverage and retirement incentives for eligible to retire?  Even with the downturn in motorcycle sales, they got this contract offer.  My, my, my...sounds like a great contract to me but what do I know... :nixweiss:

Looks like the machinist and aerospace union were the smart ones...they accepted it.

Workers need to sign the contract FAST.......

Sales suck, cost are going up for HD....
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2019, 08:57:28 PM »

Well $33 an hour with a family and today's high cost of living might not go very far. Perhaps it's the old story, ask for the stars and accept the moon. Could be just another tactic.
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2019, 09:09:35 PM »

Good googally goobs, they rejected a guaranteed 14% increase over the next 5 years, $2,250 signing bonus, no increase in healthcare costs/coverage and retirement incentives for eligible to retire?  Even with the downturn in motorcycle sales, they got this contract offer.  My, my, my...sounds like a great contract to me but what do I know... :nixweiss:

Looks like the machinist and aerospace union were the smart ones...they accepted it. 

Without looking through it, is there any language for job security? If there's layoffs, who's the first to go? The temp workers or the Union workers?  Big money is good until the cuts come and you're on the outside looking in. Make $33 an hour for a month or two and then you're gone.


Job security is a big sticking point in our contract that expired a year ago. Negotiations are pretty much at a stand still as AT&Greed will not even talk about job security.
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2019, 09:14:13 PM »

Not really smart. They rejected a new contract.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/2019/04/02/steelworkers-reject-five-year-contract-offer-harley-davidson-inc/3339565002/

Wow.  That was rather dumb on their part.  That is a very good wage for York PA.  Average Salary in York PA is 46,500.

Well $33 an hour with a family and today's high cost of living might not go very far. Perhaps it's the old story, ask for the stars and accept the moon. Could be just another tactic.

Actually in York PA is is well above average.   33 an hours is 68K a year with no over time.  Heck a skilled maintenance guy in York averages 45K a year.  So a line person with no skills is not going to take 33 an hour.  Dumb.  When they get laid off they will be lucky to get 17 and hour in York PA.

People in Middle America make way less then those on the coast, but our cost of living is way less.
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2019, 09:17:20 PM »

Wow...As a union worker in a different industry. ....I am shocked how out of touch this Union is with  what's happening in the market place especially for this product. 

This attitude will help cut off the very hand that feeds them
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2019, 08:47:45 AM »


So far all anyone commenting really knows is what Harley has chosen to say, and of course they are only telling the part that makes them look good.  I'd rather see the details, and I'm guessing those details are what caused the no vote.  The last contract took away much, not just in terms of wages but in terms of benefits and basic rules.  A big issue developed from the temporary part time workers (TPT's) Harley stuffed into that contract.  For those unfamiliar with the TPT craze, this started out many years ago as a way to cover absenteeism and vacations, giving the company a lower cost option than direct hiring of extra workers.  They are paid less, get no benefits to speak of, etc.  However, just like some of the companies in the auto industry Harley borrowed the idea from, they abused the system and kept using TPT's while laying off regular workers.  I'll bet that is one of the union's big issues.

As for the comments about trained monkeys, I always love to hear from uninformed folks with an anti-union axe to grind but no direct experience on the jobs being discussed.  Working on a modern assembly line is no cake walk, and in an age where certain politicians want burger flippers to make at least $15 per hour for a truly low skill job, I would expect semi-skilled and skilled workers to demand significantly more.  As a retired manager in the auto industry, I have first hand experience with modern assembly plants.  When we hired, we had people pre-screened by an outside concern, then we brought in groups of 20 at a time for a three week off-line training and work hardening program.  Once the group was put on the actual assembly line, many quit after the first day or two, and only 2 of the 20 on average managed to stick through the 90 day probationary period.  Not exactly a piece of cake job any monkey could do.

Jerry
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muddypaws

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2019, 10:06:52 AM »

I worked for the union at Eastern Airlines and I watched as the union destroyed the company and drove it into the ground. The union encouraged the workers to not do much in a way to control the company and keep more workers then the company really needed. I have no use for a union.
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2019, 01:12:45 PM »

I worked for the union at Eastern Airlines and I watched as the union destroyed the company and drove it into the ground. The union encouraged the workers to not do much in a way to control the company and keep more workers then the company really needed. I have no use for a union.

Eastern was destroyed by their union.  Darn shame, used to be a good airline.  That event alone changed a lot of people's opinions on unions in general.  The Air Traffic controllers strike did as well. 

Our economy is doing well, so is the stock market.  HD is not, on either count, and that is where they will negotiate from, sooner or later.
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2019, 07:42:35 PM »

most people only look at what the company is offering, if you think that's a good offer(not knowing the full language of the contract) you have to wonder what they're taking away. maybe they're proposing longer hours and fewer workers, maybe they want to be able to outsource more work, take away vacations, etc. I always get a chuckle when I hear how unions ruin companies, especially knowing that history shows that this country was strongest during the height of trade unionism. I'll be the first to admit unions aren't perfect(because the members are people), but generally speaking it's poor management that ruins companies not unions. Yearly CEO and executive pay packages can usually pay the average worker for a couple of years but you never about anyone going upstairs and asking them to get by with less, they're just as lucky as the man on the shop floor to have a job, probably luckier! because they can mess up and still get a bonus!


sorry I got off on a tangent, lol what i was trying to say is, there's more to contract negotiations than meets the eye. and that most shops organize because they feel unfairly treated by the company.
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2019, 10:21:45 AM »

Union strong! The only thing left in this country that keeps middle class alive. I experience people commenting on how stupid the union worker is from stupid uninformed people who have NO clue what is going on. Take a look at the super fat salaries executive folks are getting to destroy companies, including Harley! Go union!even if Harley fades away from stupid management.
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2019, 10:30:02 AM »

Union strong! The only thing left in this country that keeps middle class alive. I experience people commenting on how stupid the union worker is from stupid uninformed people who have NO clue what is going on. Take a look at the super fat salaries executive folks are getting to destroy companies, including Harley! Go union!even if Harley fades away from stupid management.
Yep!
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2019, 12:55:29 AM »

I always get a chuckle when I hear how unions ruin companies, especially knowing that history shows that this country was strongest during the height of trade unionism.


sorry I got off on a tangent, lol what i was trying to say is, there's more to contract negotiations than meets the eye. and that most shops organize because they feel unfairly treated by the company.
Just wondering when the height of trade unionism was?
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2019, 01:36:09 AM »

Just wondering when the height of trade unionism was?

1954
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2019, 11:00:49 AM »

1954


Yeap.  It was 2:00 PM on a Tuesday.  Little windy that day.  Overall membership been going down ever since.
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2019, 12:04:36 PM »


Yeap.  It was 2:00 PM on a Tuesday.  Little windy that day.  Overall membership been going down ever since.

Corruption and the organized crime components had not peaked yet, that was a little later in the 1950s.  On a Friday about 4:30 until a Monday morning about 9, multiple pairs of cement boots were given out & Jimmy Hoffa didn't get his until 1975, so it was a lingering peak.
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2019, 12:47:34 PM »

Considering the fact that the workers got screwed on the last contract even though Harley was still making decent profits at the time, I would guess they will really get screwed this time.  Such is the current state of labor in this country.  When times are good, management and stockholders get most of the rewards.  When times are tough, upper management still manages to get rewarded and the workforce takes it in the ear.  The lesson to be learned is to make sure you're a member of upper management, not labor and lower management. 

Jerry
What i find interesting is that BMW is able to pay the highest wages in the world to build there premium ( or large ) models right in Germany using mostly parts from there own country or Europe.

If they can do this and remain profitable why can't Harley do the same? In my opinion Harley's issues are not related to labor cost, nor do they need to source so many of there parts and motorclothes line out to China or other 3rd world countries.

Harley buyers are not looking for cheap. They want quality and products that stand for something. They want management that stands for Harley's tradition's and American workers.

Just my opinion

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2019, 02:32:19 PM »

Corruption and the organized crime components had not peaked yet, that was a little later in the 1950s.  On a Friday about 4:30 until a Monday morning about 9, multiple pairs of cement boots were given out & Jimmy Hoffa didn't get his until 1975, so it was a lingering peak.

Also Bobby Kennedy enjoyed his time in the Union sun  Then, later, not on a Friday (or a Tuesday) there was Sirhan Sirhan.  He (Kennedy) did not enjoy that; though Hoffa might have been tickled.  Because Hoffa, unlike Kennedy (either one), wasn't dead (yet).  Also, Sirhan was a bad shot.  Eight rounds and hit his target three times.  Though five others in the crowd were injured also.  So maybe not such a bad shot after all.  Bet the rest were all glad he was only using a .22.

Just had an entirely new (to me) thought.  Sirhan Sirhan has been in prison now for 50 years.  Originally given the death penalty in 1969 then in (I think this is right) 1972 commuted to life in prison.  50 years is a long time.  Even if you're locked up in San Diego that's a long long time.
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scottt

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2019, 04:23:33 PM »

Right now, labor market is doing very well, better than it has in 14 years or more.  The amount of Manufacturing is going way up also, many plants are expanding and hiring.  Wages are going up in Manufacturing also.  I know every car parts manufacturer and both VW and Nissan are hiring in my area.

That said, Harley is doing the opposite as the rest of manufacturing.  Harley sales are way down.  Production is way down.  They will be lucky to keep their jobs.  The blame is not only Harley Managements, but also the board of directors, and investors.  They did not plan for the rapid decline in sales due to Boomers dying and also deciding the cost of the product has gone up way to high.

HD needs less employees, and less production space, and reduced output.
While much of what you say is correct, most of Harley's issues can be traced back to management.

You gotta build what the market wants to buy. Harley has depended on Nostalgia to keep sales rolling, depended on buyers that only bought HD regardless, figuring there customers were willing to spend big bucks trying to fix shortfalls.

If you look past Harley in the motorcycle industry you will find bright spots. Honda is doing well with the new Goldwing. BMW has grown sales for 8 years straight. They are shooting for 200,000 sales by 2020. They are focused on new product, not simply upgrading one component at a time. Developing complete new bikes.

Harleys touring line is out of date, no longer competitive. More and more buyers today want performance, handling, comfort right off the showroom floor. A $45,000 CVO Glide should perform, Handle and deliver everything and more than a $27,000 Goldwing, BMW or other brand does and do it with style.

This is not the fault of the workers, it's management!

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2019, 08:54:59 PM »

While much of what you say is correct, most of Harley's issues can be traced back to management.

You gotta build what the market wants to buy. Harley has depended on Nostalgia to keep sales rolling, depended on buyers that only bought HD regardless, figuring there customers were willing to spend big bucks trying to fix shortfalls.

If you look past Harley in the motorcycle industry you will find bright spots. Honda is doing well with the new Goldwing. BMW has grown sales for 8 years straight. They are shooting for 200,000 sales by 2020. They are focused on new product, not simply upgrading one component at a time. Developing complete new bikes.

Harleys touring line is out of date, no longer competitive. More and more buyers today want performance, handling, comfort right off the showroom floor. A $45,000 CVO Glide should perform, Handle and deliver everything and more than a $27,000 Goldwing, BMW or other brand does and do it with style.

This is not the fault of the workers, it's management!

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Actually its the fault of Management and the worker.  More management than the worker, but the worker is in part responsible for the crappy quality.  When the worker installs a visibly defective part, or fails to tighten nuts, bolt or screws.  Or when they fail to see that the power locks do not lock the bags.  All those details fall on the worker, both on the line and in quality control.

Now for the product it is management not changing with the times and delivering what people want.  It is management cutting corners on what goes on the bike, and choosing the cheaper suppliers. 

It is also management for not figuring out what 20 and 30 something want.

However again Both Honda and BMW sales growth are in smaller bikes.  Overall Americans are spending less on motorcycles, and are buying less of them.  Also They are becoming farther and farther out of reach of people in their late 20's or early 30's.   That is who Harley needs to attract. 

Harley should have come out with something like the Pan America 6 to 8 years ago before BMW conquered that market.
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RivRaptor

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2019, 10:38:40 PM »

   I'm no fan of Unions mainly because I've seen so many abuses but my concern is who does management think is gonna buy 30K, 40K, 50K & 60K bikes!  There is only 2 wheels & 2 cylinders!.

   I almost fell for a Mako paint job cause I was about to put some money in my 17 CVO SG so I figured what the hell maybe it would make sense, my bike is low miles & perfect shape (should get good trade in) just have some maintenance & registration due soon, warranty is up and want a little more power. So 2 years newer and 5.5K more on sticker plus fees.  It's 10K difference because my last bike was OTD 38K this one is 48K OTD.

  Now let's look at what I don't get: no wet head and radiators (I like), no lowers, no chrome everywhere including the controls, rotors & wheels   What  I do get: powder coat everywhere (which I don't necessarily mind but forks are gonna chip) its a hell of lot cheaper to produce too, 1/4 inch bigger pistons & oil cooler without a fan, a big wheel, a new warranty and a fairing that needs a new wind screen to hear the stereo. I see a bike that is cheaper to produce but costs more!  Well after I got their offer on my trade in that was the last nail in the coffin.  Maybe they will deal more after MoCo announces the new bikes later this summer but by than I will have done all the work and since I like my bike to begin with I won't be interested.  I guess as others have said on this site that the gotta have factor was not there.  But if the price was there I would have been a buyer I wanted to try a RG & I liked the paint, but paint ain't worth that much money.  Sorry if I ranted.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 10:41:59 PM by RivRaptor »
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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2019, 01:14:38 AM »

Also Bobby Kennedy enjoyed his time in the Union sun  Then, later, not on a Friday (or a Tuesday) there was Sirhan Sirhan.  He (Kennedy) did not enjoy that; though Hoffa might have been tickled.  Because Hoffa, unlike Kennedy (either one), wasn't dead (yet).  Also, Sirhan was a bad shot.  Eight rounds and hit his target three times.  Though five others in the crowd were injured also.  So maybe not such a bad shot after all.  Bet the rest were all glad he was only using a .22.

Just had an entirely new (to me) thought.  Sirhan Sirhan has been in prison now for 50 years.  Originally given the death penalty in 1969 then in (I think this is right) 1972 commuted to life in prison.  50 years is a long time.  Even if you're locked up in San Diego that's a long long time.

Another era the 1960s, when an AG would go after corruption in a group that tended to vote for that AGs political party.  RFK had the audacity (and/or integrity) to do just that to bust union corruption.  When Big Labor (Teamsters, etc.) buys influence in their political party, they expect it to stay bought. RFK stepped on some toes & those toes were pissed off.  RFK was swimming upstream, not like his brother Ted though. Have wondered what would have happened had RFK not been shot. Will never know. 50 years in jail is a long time, even for a Manchurian candidate.

As far as what drives HD union negotiations, from a Wall Street standpoint:
Harley-Davidson (NYSE:HOG) last announced its earnings results on Tuesday, January 29th. The company reported $0.17 earnings per share (EPS) for the quarter, missing consensus estimates of $0.33 by ($0.16). William Blair reissued a “market perform” rating on shares of Harley-Davidson in a research report on Tuesday, January 29th. ValuEngine downgraded Harley-Davidson from a “hold” rating to a “sell” rating in a research report on Wednesday, January 2nd. Finally, Robert W. Baird lowered their price target on Harley-Davidson from $50.00 to $45.00 and set a “neutral” rating on the stock in a research note on Thursday, December 13th. Three analysts have rated the stock with a sell rating, eight have assigned a hold rating and five have given a buy rating to the stock. Harley-Davidson has an average rating of “Hold” and a consensus target price of $43.38.

Current stock price is $40.31.

In other words, in investment banker professional speak descriptive terminology:  Harley sucks as an investment, because their sales & earnings suck.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 01:18:57 AM by iski »
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scottt

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Re: Harley union...
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2019, 12:46:33 PM »

   I'm no fan of Unions mainly because I've seen so many abuses but my concern is who does management think is gonna buy 30K, 40K, 50K & 60K bikes!  There is only 2 wheels & 2 cylinders!.

   I almost fell for a Mako paint job cause I was about to put some money in my 17 CVO SG so I figured what the hell maybe it would make sense, my bike is low miles & perfect shape (should get good trade in) just have some maintenance & registration due soon, warranty is up and want a little more power. So 2 years newer and 5.5K more on sticker plus fees.  It's 10K difference because my last bike was OTD 38K this one is 48K OTD.

  Now let's look at what I don't get: no wet head and radiators (I like), no lowers, no chrome everywhere including the controls, rotors & wheels   What  I do get: powder coat everywhere (which I don't necessarily mind but forks are gonna chip) its a hell of lot cheaper to produce too, 1/4 inch bigger pistons & oil cooler without a fan, a big wheel, a new warranty and a fairing that needs a new wind screen to hear the stereo. I see a bike that is cheaper to produce but costs more!  Well after I got their offer on my trade in that was the last nail in the coffin.  Maybe they will deal more after MoCo announces the new bikes later this summer but by than I will have done all the work and since I like my bike to begin with I won't be interested.  I guess as others have said on this site that the gotta have factor was not there.  But if the price was there I would have been a buyer I wanted to try a RG & I liked the paint, but paint ain't worth that much money.  Sorry if I ranted.
Agree with everything you said. The only thing i think you missed is how Harley has become less and less competitive in the touring sector. Harleys top selling line of bikes. The top two reasons to buy a Harley touring ride are style and brand loyalty. Followed by sound and feel of the bikes.

They do not compete in performance, handling, value, features nor comfort. Harley must compete on all levels. They cannot depend on being the bike 1% clubs ride (image) as i believe they have done. Harley owes much of there sucess to the clubs that ride there bikes, that's not enough moving forward. Especially considering the abundance of bargain priced used bikes that check the box for style, brand loyalty, sound and feel, doing so at less than half the price of new.

Your only going to create high demand by offering a far superior motorcycle to previous offerings, competitive  with other makes. Todays touring line is not that bike. America can do better.

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