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[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Bubba, actually most of us here have a clue.  Many of us either are or have been in business for ourselves.  Not just working in another's shop.  So we're familiar with everything Roger mentions and thoroughly understand the risks inherent when it's all on your dime (as opposed to simply your paycheck).

All that being said, there is still a history based on a very real foundation when it comes to the Harley shops.  There were many who marked up; a lot.  Were their consumers willing to pay it?  Sure.  Was it "wrong?"  Depends on the particular definition in question at the moment.

Please do not assume, however, that as a shop employee you're in a better position to "have a clue" as to all the exigent considerations of running a business and being responsible for all of its employees and their families than those many of us that have actually been there and done that.

Two I would purpose you practice what you preach..don't ASSuME ...I got in the car business in 1975 and worked on the showroom for 5 years I owned my own car business for 10 years ...I worked as a general manager and general sales manager for 10 years ...I retired in 2001 but got board and decided to go back to work ...thus I mived to Kentucky to take this job with two fine owners ... so with you not knowing my background I would just say to you sir I have been in the position .... however most of what you said I would agree on ..... again this is not a perfect world ... but it beats digging ditches.

Bubba

[Twolanerider]

Two I would purpose you practice what you preach..don't ASSuME ...

Bubba, the assumption came from the condecension in your tone.  That's a tone usually borne of the assumptions of one that sees what's going on around him and assumes that's all there is to see.  If you spoke to me or with me rather than at me or down to me I'd be far more interested in what you've got to say and would be far more likely to assume your intent was truly to inform rather than merely posture.

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

I think the real point here (or at least the one that resonates with me) is that the MOCO has had a 15 year run where their customers were willing to put up with mediocore to poor performance of their product. The real question is not whether there are good dealerships or bad dealerships - there are both (reminds me of the animal house line about "the question is not whether we took advantage of our female guests - We did!!").  The real question for me is will the next generation of riders be so forgiving and allow for an inferior product?  Will the mystic and intangibles of riding a harley offset the mechanical headaches we deal with for the next generation. That is the question that MOCO must face i suspect.  
Free

Free that my friend is a very good post ... yep there are good ones and bad ones but its funny that most all you hear about is the bad ....as for the "next generation" ....seems like they always have been forgiving ..the 50's 60's even the AMF 70's and 80's we kept riding .... but I will be the FIRST to admit we do have some speed bumps to over come ...one that really bothers me is the high heat that is coming off the new engines .... Harley HAS to do something about that ...I know they are running the engine leaner but the heat really bothers my customers and I sure do not blame them ...there are other issues I know but I feel confident that HD will address them and try to do whats right.

Bubba

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Bubba, the assumption came from the condecension in your tone.  That's a tone usually borne of the assumptions of one that sees what's going on around him and assumes that's all there is to see.  If you spoke to me or with me rather than at me or down to me I'd be far more interested in what you've got to say and would be far more likely to assume your intent was truly to inform rather than merely posture.

Two I am not going to get in a pissing battle with you..I have NOTHING to gain ..as for talking "down" to you I do not even KNOW you so why would you say that...none of my post were directed at you BUT YOU on the other hand make THIS statement " Many of us either are or have been in business for ourselves.  Not just working in another's shop. " ...give me a break...its sounds by YOUR tone YOUR the one talking down to ME..you are entitled to your opinions ...I am curious though ..how can you pick up on my "tone" when you cant hear my voice ...ASSuMEing again ? By the way just for your future reference

tone [ tōn ]


noun  (plural tones)
 
Definition:
 
1. distinctive kind of sound: a sound with a distinctive quality
The first bell has a clearer tone.

 
2. way of speaking: the way somebody says something as an indicator of what that person is feeling or thinking
a defiant tone in her voice
 


Bubba

[RedDevil]

RD with all due respect weather it is 18% or 80% its guys like you that continue to pay the price ...you fuel the fire ..for whatever reason we keep building them and you keep buying them ..generally when that continues to happen its because the customer feels he is getting the value for the money he is spending ...you talk about mark up ....we have more profit margin on CVOs then any other bike BUT you continue to buy them ..WHY? As for having a hard time feeling sorry for the dealer I am sure the guy who cut your lawn today or washed your car doesnt feel sorry for you when he sees that CVO sitting in your drive way ... My point is that the dealer nor the MoCo holds a shotgun on you to buy their product ...you make that decesion on your own ...remember when you point a finger at the dealer or MoCo you have 3 pointing right back at you ... I know we have some quality control problems right now but not as much as when AMF owned the company ..and a lot of the problems are due to EPA ....now I understand thats no concellation but the truth is the truth ...the great thing about it is you can either wait to buy one when you feel the bugs are worked out ..or you can ride what you have ..or switch brands ..its YOUR money ... when I say YOU RD I do not mean YOU directly ..its a general term ...with all due respect.

Bubba

Bubba,
I have no problems buying a Harley at a fair price and I have no problems with dealers that sell their bikes at a fair price (at or right around MSRP).  I didn't buy my CVO as an investment.  Never even considered that. I bought it because I wanted it.  If our dealerships around me had been price-gouging, like some out on the left coast and down in Florida, I never would have bought it, no matter how bad I wanted it.  You're right, I have the right to choose to buy it or not, and I do, and I guess you (by you I mean the dealerships, not you personally Bubba), have the right to charge whatever you think you can get for a motorcycle whether it's fair or not.  (By the way, I've heard from many people that KHD is a very fair and good dealership.  )  I was trying to buy a Dodge pickup at one dealership and he wouldn't budge off of his price, so while I was at the dealership walking around I decided to call a couple of other Dodge dealerships and found one that would offer me the same truck, starting on the phone for $2K less than the "final" offer of this guy.  I went back and told him that and he pounded his fist on the desk and said, "how can you go there, you're taking food off of my family's table?"  I told him I guess this other dealer's family eats less than his and walked out.  By the way, I did buy the truck from the other dealership and paid even less for it when I started haggling in person.  I really don't know what my point is anymore.... Just venting now. 
Cheers ,
 

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Bubba,
I have no problems buying a Harley at a fair price and I have no problems with dealers that sell their bikes at a fair price (at or right around MSRP).  I didn't buy my CVO as an investment.  Never even considered that. I bought it because I wanted it.   If our dealerships around me had been price-gouging, like some out on the left coast and down in Florida, I never would have bought it, no matter how bad I wanted it.  You're right, I have the right to choose to buy it or not, and I do, and I guess you (by you I mean the dealerships, not you personally Bubba), have the right to charge whatever you think you can get for a motorcycle whether it's fair or not.  (By the way, I've heard from many people that KHD is a very fair and good dealership.  )  I was trying to buy a Dodge pickup at one dealership and he wouldn't budge off of his price, so while I was at the dealership walking around I decided to call a couple of other Dodge dealerships and found one that would offer me the same truck, starting on the phone for $2K less than the "final" offer of this guy.  I went back and told him that and he pounded his fist on the desk and said, "how can you go there, you're taking food off of my family's table?"  I told him I guess this other dealer's family eats less than his and walked out.  By the way, I did buy the truck from the other dealership and paid even less for it when I started haggling in person.  I really don't know what my point is anymore.... Just venting now. 
Cheers ,
 

RD its to bad everyone INCLUDING ME does not have YOUR attitude ...you know it REALLY burns my butt to have to pay $3.00 a gallon for gas or $1.49 for a one liter bottle of diet coke (no sugar which is the most expensive ingredient in coke) when I know they produce that bottle for less then a dime ...BUT I buy it anyway cause I do not like Pepsi

Bubba

[RJ749]

The real question for me is will the next generation of riders be so forgiving and allow for an inferior product?   Will the mystic and intangibles of riding a harley offset the mechanical headaches we deal with for the next generation. That is the question that MOCO must face i suspect. 

Free

Andy, I am sure I will be speaking to the choir here, but the answer to the question you posed is; Absolutely Not.

The next gen riders are less forgiving and more demanding on product performance and quality.  There is no wa the MoCo can continue relying only on the mystic and loyalty of their customers to continually produce the growth and profitability they have enjoyed.  Likewise, it is doubtful that they can even maintain it if they only rely on mystic and loyalty.

[grc]

................................................  And why are they reducing production if there are really that many dealerships like yours who want the extra product?  ....................................................

Jerry

Roger,

That question was tongue-in-cheek; I know exactly why there are dealers claiming shortages while others still have full warehouses of carryover models.  The bike business isn't much different than the car business, except it's easier to hide the excess bikes in warehouses.  The point I was trying to make is that perhaps there is a slight problem with Harley's distribution system, which was designed to deal with a market in a perpetual state of shortages.  I get the distinct impression that most of the dealers have continued to order every bike their allocation allows, even though they have no customers for them, because to not do so would cause them to lose allocation in the future.  It takes a lot of years in a "turn to earn" system to build your allocation, and no one wants to throw those gains away.  Eventually, if the market stays flat or worse, that excess inventory is going to either be dumped on the market at fire sale prices or it will be offered up to the little guys as dealer transfers.  I seriously doubt Harley wants to see the situation that has existed with other brands in the past, where you could find three model years of brand new never registered bikes on the same showroom floor.  Something like that really makes charging over MSRP a tough sell!

Jerry

[deucedog]

Roger,

That question was tongue-in-cheek; I know exactly why there are dealers claiming shortages while others still have full warehouses of carryover models.  The bike business isn't much different than the car business, except it's easier to hide the excess bikes in warehouses.  The point I was trying to make is that perhaps there is a slight problem with Harley's distribution system, which was designed to deal with a market in a perpetual state of shortages.  I get the distinct impression that most of the dealers have continued to order every bike their allocation allows, even though they have no customers for them, because to not do so would cause them to lose allocation in the future.  It takes a lot of years in a "turn to earn" system to build your allocation, and no one wants to throw those gains away.  Eventually, if the market stays flat or worse, that excess inventory is going to either be dumped on the market at fire sale prices or it will be offered up to the little guys as dealer transfers.  I seriously doubt Harley wants to see the situation that has existed with other brands in the past, where you could find three model years of brand new never registered bikes on the same showroom floor.  Something like that really makes charging over MSRP a tough sell!

Jerry

My comment was a reply to Jerry's above:

I agree and I think we're already there.  Everytime I am at our local dealer and a bunch of guys see a new bike at over MSRP nearly everyone views it as obnoxious.  It's almost as if its passe' and uncool now.  Personally, I find it offensive.  But, as Bubba has so eloquently pointed out, no one puts a shot gun to us to buy it.  And we don't.  We simply go elsewhere where they do charge MSRP and reward the reasonable dealers with our business and loyalty.

[RJ749]

Jerry, I gotcha.

That three model year scenario was evident in Nelson BC when Canuck and I borrowed the truck.  They had KTM's there back to 05.

[RedDevil]

RD its to bad everyone INCLUDING ME does not have YOUR attitude ...you know it REALLY burns my butt to have to pay $3.00 a gallon for gas or $1.49 for a one liter bottle of diet coke (no sugar which is the most expensive ingredient in coke) when I know they produce that bottle for less then a dime ...BUT I buy it anyway cause I do not like Pepsi

Bubba

Bubba,
I hear ya.  I hate paying $3.00 a gallon for premium here in VA, but if I don't, I don't ride the CVO.    I guess you do what you have to do.  There's a lot of things that would, if I had it my way, be different.  But when we're controlled by corporate America, what can you do.  You can't complain to Congress because big business is lining their pockets nicely, so they will listen and act only so much as to not pi$$ their sugar-daddies off. 
Cheers ,
 

[novazeus]

My crystal ball tells me that the next three years will be economically hard for all of us.
It will be especially hard for non-essential manufacturers like Harley-Davidson. They will come back stronger than ever because many lower tier motorcycle manufacturers will close their doors.
Harley is cutting back on production and I think they need to do that to be responsible to their shareholders.
I predict some dealerships will change hands in the next three years and there will be bargains on product for those who will part with cash or sign a note.

So if you like your local dealer you should hope he made some healthy profits in the last few years and he was saving it for a rainy day because the next few years he'll be giving those profits back to stay afloat.

[Free]

yup - sounds right to me.

Harley really is getting some help from the weak dollar and should continue to do so for the forseable future. More and more motorcycles sold overseas.

Free

[RJ749]

My crystal ball tells me that the next three years will be economically hard for all of us.
It will be especially hard for non-essential manufacturers like Harley-Davidson. They will come back stronger than ever because many lower tier motorcycle manufacturers will close their doors.
Harley is cutting back on production and I think they need to do that to be responsible to their shareholders.
I predict some dealerships will change hands in the next three years and there will be bargains on product for those who will part with cash or sign a note.

So if you like your local dealer you should hope he made some healthy profits in the last few years and he was saving it for a rainy day because the next few years he'll be giving those profits back to stay afloat.

You don't need to wait three years, I can tell you of four in the last three months.

[LRebel]

Well, been reading through this thread and I guess the best way to describe it would be "spirited".
Anyway, thought I would put in my 2 cents (if anyone is interested).

I have been in business for 20 years >> almost afraid to say what kind of business for fear of attacks, but I am in the insurance business.
Because I am in business, I very well understand the expenses involved with running a business: taxes, utilities, payroll, etc...  BTW, one big difference with my business >> the price I charge is fixed - insurance company has to get their price approved with the state insurance dept.  Thus, my profit is fixed on the service I sell >> but this has nothing to do with this thread.

Anyway, I don't care what MSRP is or how much a dealer may charge above MSRP or for freight and set-up.  I have customers that are very loyal and some have been doing business with me for 20 years.  I have always done my best (and demand the same of my employees - or they are out the door) to be honest with my customers and give them the best value -- unfortunately, I have yet to find this kind of service and honesty in the car/motorcycle business.
There are two HD dealers within ten miles of my office.  I have never purchased a bike from either >> not that I have not tried, I am just a frugal shopper.  I am not an impulse buyer, so I take my time (maybe a few months) and check my options and buy from the dealer that will give me the best deal.  And, I will never trade-in a bike or car - IMO, you are just asking to get off on the wrong foot with a dealer of any kind when you trade any vehicle in.  I will sell it myself and beat the dealer out of that $$.
With regard to service work:  I have yet to find a dealer (car or bike) that does the work to my satisfaction.  Therefore, if I can do it myself, I do it and then I know it was done right.
Warranty work:  This is different; they have you over a barrel >> warranty pays for work &/or parts, so you have to deal with a dealer.  If a dealer screws me on warranty work or does a crappy job, then there are more dealers around and they all get paid whether it comes out of my pocket or form the mfg.  I will find a dealer that will treat me right and will do quality work.
Product Quality:  This is a problem --  We all have fallen in love with HD.  I can't think of any other brand in the market that people blindly follow like we do HD.  We either buy HD and deal with it or we buy japan, germany, italy, china,.....  With that said, I have to wonder about the MoCo's ethics...if you know there is a problem with your product, fix it and then charge accordingly.  IMO, HD really needs to take care of the "Goose that lays the golden eggs".

Anyway, that's my 2 cents
Rebel