Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[FNGw/08SERK]

Looking at the subject of this thread, I noticed that it is ironic to "beware of aftermarket" performance mods because the main reason for this rebuild is that the multi billion dollar corporation with hundreds of engineers and their official dealers and factory certified mechanics put out and can't support a bad product.

We have to be able to trust someone.  IMHO, Howie's frustration is that he puts so much trust up front and then something goes wrong and then he feels betrayed.  Like I said, he was betrayed by the moco and the dealer and others first.  Like when you cheat on your spouse, its hard to build that trust back up, or so I've heard.  I'm glad to see info from both sides here.

I am very like Howie in some respects, only after being betryed by the moco, I have decided that the SERK and I will be getting a divorce when I find a new mistress to ride. (!).  A year ago we discussed this.  I do not have Howie's passion, dollars,  or other bikes to ride.  I'll move on before I spend any money to fix this thing.  Just my 2 cents and I hope to hell Cybil is 110% of what Howie wants, and I'm glad that New Yorkers are not too big on carrying guns.  Goin postal!
 

Not all "New Yorkers" reside in the concrete jungle.....

[grc]

Looking at the subject of this thread, I noticed that it is ironic to "beware of aftermarket" performance mods because the main reason for this rebuild is that the multi billion dollar corporation with hundreds of engineers and their official dealers and factory certified mechanics put out and can't support a bad product.

We have to be able to trust someone.  IMHO, Howie's frustration is that he puts so much trust up front and then something goes wrong and then he feels betrayed.  Like I said, he was betrayed by the moco and the dealer and others first.  Like when you cheat on your spouse, its hard to build that trust back up, or so I've heard.  I'm glad to see info from both sides here.

I am very like Howie in some respects, only after being betryed by the moco, I have decided that the SERK and I will be getting a divorce when I find a new mistress to ride. (!).  A year ago we discussed this.  I do not have Howie's passion, dollars,  or other bikes to ride.  I'll move on before I spend any money to fix this thing.  Just my 2 cents and I hope to hell Cybil is 110% of what Howie wants, and I'm glad that New Yorkers are not too big on carrying guns.  Goin postal!
 

Well said.  I could actually take this whole experience much further and relate it to other goods and services I've purchased over the past several years.  IMHO, when the economy is booming and folks are making money hand over fist, quality and customer service tend to slip.  Sure, people can make mistakes.  But it is the responsibility of management to implement systems and controls to minimize those mistakes.  It shouldn't be the customer's responsibility to catch the mistakes of the manufacturers and various middle men.

Something is wrong when you start to dread buying new bikes, electronic gadgets, homes, furnaces (just did that, another PITA), mods for your bike, etc. because you know the experience will not be the smooth one you want and deserve.  I've personally had nothing but issues with almost every product or service I've purchased lately, from a simple iPod to a new furnace to a POS Harley to an angioplasty that didn't stay fixed.  I've reached the point where I don't even want to think about buying anything.  Maybe with the current economic downturn (recession) we will see a return to core values of top quality and customer service in an attempt to stay in business.  Strange how history keeps repeating.

Jerry

[Twolanerider]

Wish I had a new clutch already.  Wish it was spring.  Wish Cybil was all buttoned up. 

[SBB]

Wish I had a new clutch already.  Wish it was spring.  Wish Cybil was all buttoned up. 

you don't need a clutch
just a VPC and a spring

 

[Hoist!]

Now I get my turn! It's interesting reading Pam's Fairy Tales. Sure, point the finger at me! My bad, I spend 5 grand with this vendor, and don't find until their work was finally checked, that it had been wrong all along. Thanks Jerry for at least seeing thru all this BS to get to the real bottom line here.

Lies? I've only stated facts. I was even trying to be nice and give any credit that was due besides pointing out the defficiencies! So I really do care what they say at all. If they want to wriote 100 posts blaming me and defending themselves, I don't GAS. What you folks should really be looking for from this vendor, is a thorough explanation of how such a simple job by a 31 YO engine designer can go so wrong on their part, to get me this upset in the first place. Oh yeah, my fault I guess.

I put this thread together after I received my stuff back, to alert ya'll to what I found during this process. The only one sticking their heads in the sand is CR. Trying to cover their asses and salvage their reputation. It's obvious by blaming me, that they still don't really care about what the only thing they should care about, the parts they supplied to me. Which were supposed to be configured correctly. And were wrong not once, but twice. It took 3 shipments total. The first batch was even installed this way by the dealer. The dealer complained when they had to check stuff, as they expected bolt on, which we were told we're getting.

That BS about me rushing to get cylinders is BS. It went that way because Pam herself told me that their pistons were made to their spec, and don't have to be fitted. Bolt on! BS!!! So they went in as shipped. But that turned out to be BS, as evident by the condition of the new pistons and cylinders after only 800 miles!

Yeah, I thought after spending $32K on the bike that I should try to get it fixed under w.....ty. With a dealer that suggested this approach. My bad! The dealer sucked at assembling it. My fault! But then I paid CR for any rework or replacement parts they suggested. So I don't GAS who screwed up the first build. It's back on them for the parts for the second build. And I never said Alex got fired. As a matter of fact he's the new Service Mgr there. Gotta love vendors making excuses and then trying to cover their asses after getting exposed. But I threw this out there for ya'll. For those who are still considering doing business there. And notice none of any other screwups were addressed here either. All time spent on blaming me and cover their asses! poor vendor! They also knew I was going gear drive as soon as the decision was made to do the bottom end. That's what Vern wants. I don't care if they hoped I'd stay with the chain drive. Not their call! 3 months to grind cams! BS! They never ordered the cores to get them done on time. By the time they did, Andrews had delays.

So if ya'll think it's appropriate for the vendor to rally the troops against the unhappy customer and blame him for everything, believe what you must. I have nothing at stake here. Sour grapes cause I'm mad, BS! Wouldn't waste my time. This is for you guys and you can believe what you want. But since they have my buddy Chip to rally the troops for them, you have an even more difficult time understanding what happened.

Bottom line is simple, whether I'm a PIA or not. I paid GOOD money for a perfect job, and received nothing but delays, excuses, and poor workmanship, until I finally got usable parts last week. Then I spoke up. My bad! I spoke up! Now big bad vendor's upset! Not my problem. I stand by my statements here, as they are factual. And I have no vested interest in talking about it here except to inform ya'll. But I will not post any further on this. Like I said, it's up to ya'll to decide what happened. But I'm more interested to know why they screwed up so many times, and why I can't get the specs from them. How shallow is it to blame the customer! If I was that bad, as Don said, they should have given me my money and told me to go away. After 3 months, she didn't like me pushing them. Tough crap. I wanted my chit back already. If they spent the attenrtion they spent on spinning this story, on my job, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. And they sure liked me talking it up when my bike appeared to be OK, and for the short time I was actually happy with them.

I know what really happened. You guys can believe what you must. I'm the one out here with this. And like I said, with nothing else to gain. So ya'll decide. Is Hoist full of crap, or is the Vendor? Because one of us obviously is!!!

Hoist!

[iski]

Very well put Howie.  Eloquently put.

I have been in business for over 30 years with several companies.  Never claim to have 100% satisfied customers - just not possible.  Most of 'em by far ok with our service - you bet.

You are not happy with CR's work and their excuses have made you even less pleased.  I can relate to that.  Bottom line - one unhappy customer can cost a company dozens of potential customers - or more.

Again, thanks for posting this & from your viewpoint, it's a buyer beware situation.  Best go where there is less to beware......makes life less complicated.

[The Mysterious Q!]

So Howie what your really saying is that I shouldn't get any motor work done by CR. Is that it? I need some clarification.  Later,Q

[Unbalanced]

Iski,

I disagree having watched this from the sidelines for quite some time now and feel obligated to comment since I am the one that recommend CR to Howie.

1.  the complaints are not all justified and some are.   There are claims here that just aren't true in some cases.   The cylinders were not galled they did have ghost marks in them from the rings seating on the cylinders.   I saw this with my own eyes.    The gasket cinch being on the parts is Alex and Vern's issues not CR's.   They didnt do the build and it is not their responsibility to clean the products when they didnt cause it.  

Wasnt it the Service Manager that got fired for helping Howie and Alex got promoted?
Wasn't it Vern who couldn't dyno tune Howies bike worth a dam which is why he had to go to Joes in NY?   Yet Alex was the greatest thing since sliced bread and now he sucks and is the SM at that dealership and Vern is the new king.  Yet in other posts Howie doesn't say to use Vern he recommends Hillside and another company to do the builds to SirMikey113.   Strange ??  

Shouldn't Vern as a motor guy know how to deal with coated pistons?    None of the main stream motor guys I know would have had to call people to find out they already know.

Howie why dont you tell them how Vern didnt know to clearance and remove the burs from S&S's crank to get the wrist pin through?    Why dont you tell them how Vern would have like the surfaces cleaned better, but admitted the gaskets would seal fine, just his preference.   Why dont you tell them that you could have run your old pistons except that Alex scored the wrong ones and messed with the front instead of the rear piston which is why Pam suggested new one.

The pistons that CR's uses are straight pistons that they sent vs. should have sent the pistons that handle the wider rod that S&S uses that could have been fixed though by removing .0015 on each side for the clearance.   That was a drop by CP and by CR since CR ordered them to spec to the S&S, but didnt verify that is what they got.  yep CR's bad.

The fin not being fixed, when in reality they fixed a larger fin that was broke and didnt look further for the smaller one that was broken, yet fixed after the fact in a 2nd shipment.

The claims the cores werent ordered or delivered timely... Blame Andrews for this that isnt CR's fault that Andrews didnt deliver.   Howie could have run his cam he has now until that one came in if need be if getting the bike together was such a big issue.  

The Bore Size issue.   If Vern knew what he was doing he would have known what to do or could have called Snake at CP and would have been told how to handle it just like CR told them.    Howie even slammed John Sachs for a measurement request, which was uncalled for.   John is a great guy and knows his stuff, so much for helping an arm chair mechanic I guess might have been nice to add in to the mix as well they were coated Pistons.

Does anyone have CP Piston's piston to cylinder clearance specs. I'm looking for their forged piston "loose" fit and "tight" fit cold clearances. Should be something like 0.002" tight, and 0.035 loose, or whatever their recommendation is. Vern is fitting my pistons himself since we're not getting them setup right from the vendor. Wes has his pistons made per his spec by CP. But Vern wants to fit them himself and we need CP's specs. TIA if you can get this for me.

After Howies claims of blowing up the motor vs. just blowing a head gasket CR requested the cylinders to be sure there wasn't a lining moving issue which then delayed both Scott and Howie in an effort to be diligent and avoid further issues.

Yep CR missed details which above the admitted to, and should have caught, but they fixed them all and moved on and even went above and beyond with all the trouble and balanced pistons as an attempt to make it right for the issues.

Yep they were delayed on Scott's due to mis information on Howies Blown Engine claims because Pam held his cylinders until she could verify that it wasn't a liner issue, cores that werent in and shipping mistake sending Scott the wrong oil pump.   There were issues on other cylinders not 110, but in doing the right thing they didn't want Scott to do his build to find out the hard way.   They felt safe was better than sorry.    

So yes as a company they blew it on some details, but unlike Zippers they got on the phone, they offered help they made it right.   They did conference calls and spoke the the mechanics and there that is a huge difference here between a company that doesn't care and one that stands behind their stuff.   Everyone makes mistakes, its what you do to correct them that shows the character in the company.

Flame on nothing else good can come of commenting further.

[Hoist!]

So Howie what your really saying is that I shouldn't get any motor work done by CR. Is that it? I need some clarification.  Later,Q

Never said that either Q. All I'm saying is that the only way to insure a vendor's work is proper is to have it carefully checked to spec after you receive it. Don't go by what a vendor says, because the work won't necessarily conform. Some vendors do what they say. Some play games. Some fail. Some make "mistakes". The design seems sound and my bike ran good, while it held up. But if I knew then what I know today, it wouldn't be worth all the grief I went thru to do it again. There's other suppliers out there that are less painful!

Hoist!

[The Mysterious Q!]

We all have horror stories from work done by word of mouth references. It seems that this was an isolated incident and it shouldn't be the only thing to base a decision on for a company in business for 31 years ( to me that means something). By no means am I condoning what happened or praising CR but it is what it is. There is always the risk of effing something up in your business and its unfortunate it was you Howie, so with knowing it happened we all will use due dilligence when quantifying our decision to approach motor upgrades for the search of the elusive HP. I am by no reason picking a side or getting comped by anyone but I know as a business owner that you will screw up and hopefully you stand by your product and rectify the situation. Oh and Howie like I told you a while back about posting every little detail and making judgements that the folk around here as great as they are have memories like elephants and nothing gets by, and they will use it against you in time like these.Just trying to look out for a Bro. Be good and caveat emptor(sp.)  Later,Q

[Hoist!]

Iski,

I disagree having watched this from the sidelines for quite some time now and feel obligated to comment since I am the one that recommend CR to Howie.

1.  the complaints are not all justified and some are.   There are claims here that just aren't true in some cases.   The cylinders were not galled they did have ghost marks in them from the rings seating on the cylinders.   I saw this with my own eyes.    The gasket cinch being on the parts is Alex and Vern's issues not CR's.   They didnt do the build and it is not their responsibility to clean the products when they didnt cause it.  

Wasnt it the Service Manager that got fired for helping Howie and Alex got promoted?
Wasn't it Vern who couldn't dyno tune Howies bike worth a dam which is why he had to go to Joes in NY?   Yet Alex was the greatest thing since sliced bread and now he sucks and is the SM at that dealership and Vern is the new king.  Yet in other posts Howie doesn't say to use Vern he recommends Hillside and another company to do the builds to SirMikey113.   Strange ??  

Shouldn't Vern as a motor guy know how to deal with coated pistons?    None of the main stream motor guys I know would have had to call people to find out they already know.

Howie why dont you tell them how Vern didnt know to clearance and remove the burs from S&S's crank to get the wrist pin through?    Why dont you tell them how Vern would have like the surfaces cleaned better, but admitted the gaskets would seal fine, just his preference.   Why dont you tell them that you could have run your old pistons except that Alex scored the wrong ones and messed with the front instead of the rear piston which is why Pam suggested new one.

The pistons that CR's uses are straight pistons that they sent vs. should have sent the pistons that handle the wider rod that S&S uses that could have been fixed though by removing .0015 on each side for the clearance.   That was a drop by CP and by CR since CR ordered them to spec to the S&S, but didnt verify that is what they got.  yep CR's bad.

The fin not being fixed, when in reality they fixed a larger fin that was broke and didnt look further for the smaller one that was broken, yet fixed after the fact in a 2nd shipment.

The claims the cores werent ordered or delivered timely... Blame Andrews for this that isnt CR's fault that Andrews didnt deliver.   Howie could have run his cam he has now until that one came in if need be if getting the bike together was such a big issue.  

The Bore Size issue.   If Vern knew what he was doing he would have known what to do or could have called Snake at CP and would have been told how to handle it just like CR told them.    Howie even slammed John Sachs for a measurement request, which was uncalled for.   John is a great guy and knows his stuff, so much for helping an arm chair mechanic I guess might have been nice to add in to the mix as well they were coated Pistons.

After Howies claims of blowing up the motor vs. just blowing a head gasket CR requested the cylinders to be sure there wasn't a lining moving issue which then delayed both Scott and Howie in an effort to be diligent and avoid further issues.

Yep CR missed details which above the admitted to, and should have caught, but they fixed them all and moved on and even went above and beyond with all the trouble and balanced pistons as an attempt to make it right for the issues.

Yep they were delayed on Scott's due to mis information on Howies Blown Engine claims because Pam held his cylinders until she could verify that it wasn't a liner issue, cores that werent in and shipping mistake sending Scott the wrong oil pump.   There were issues on other cylinders not 110, but in doing the right thing they didn't want Scott to do his build to find out the hard way.   They felt safe was better than sorry.    

So yes as a company they blew it on some details, but unlike Zippers they got on the phone, they offered help they made it right.   They did conference calls and spoke the the mechanics and there that is a huge difference here between a company that doesn't care and one that stands behind their stuff.   Everyone makes mistakes, its what you do to correct them that shows the character in the company.

Flame on nothing else good can come of commenting further.

Well, well, well. Look who crawled out of the woodwork here. You seem to know more about what happened than me. Like I said, I stand by my statements. You're in bed with them, and must justify you recommending them to me in the first place now. I won't waste my time addressing your uninformed accusations, which are only an attempt to help CR not loose face. I paid my money, had plenty of grief, I am not happy with them in the end. All facts. They had no problem taking that money either. Fact. All facts, and I'm not wasting my time fighting with anyone about it anymore. Not my problem anymore! Believe them. Believe Chip. Believe Harry. I really don't GAS. They even called Vern's shop asking why he's feeding the fire, which he is not. This is all on me. But they're scrambling to save face. Whatever. I could care less about it. Only my motor. Which is what I thought they cared about in the first place. Apparently not!

Hoist!

[AMP]

I called Vern's/Buddy's shop to tell him it would be a mistake to clearance the cylinders the way that Vern said he was going to. It was a heads up for another shop owner. THAT is what I called about. I do care that the motor turns out well. That is ALL I care about at this point.

You are not happy. THAT's a fact. Is there anything I could have done differently to change that? Short of flying my whole crew to New York and repairing your motor for free, No I couldn't. The 2 mistakes we made, we took care of. Neither would have been detrimental to your build. Vern couldn't fit the pistons on the rod without clearancing...they were clearanced. The fin being broken, wouldn't have caused any motor issues....it was repaired. The wait on the cams was unavoidable. Nothing I could have done about that. We ordered them. We constantly have them on order. There is only one place to get the cores and we all get them from there. As a matter of fact I even spoke to Mike(Andrews) about it at the Cincinnatti show. Wes was the one in contact with them from the beginning. They had to send the cores out to have them hardened. That was the big delay. Nothing I could've done would have changed that. Believe me, it would have stopped about 400 phone calls...I did everything I could to get those cores in.

I didn't blame you for anything. I stated the fact that it was my idea to get the cylinders back due to something you called here in a panic over. I don't regret doing that. I would rather be safe than sorry in any case. It was not your idea. As a matter of fact, I have an e-mail stating the Vern was going to use the pistons again but you wanted us to check them because of Alex' fine machine work on the wrong piston, which actually wouldn't have hurt anything, but we were trying to make you comfortable. Again, better safe than sorry. I also have e-mails from you stating how happy you are with your motor and how it made more horsepower than Wes told you it would. And that is with improperly clearanced pistons? I think not.
So Axtell was wrong on the clearances, John Sachs was wrong on the clearances, Cycle-Rama was wrong on the clearances and Vern has got the hot ticket...got it.

Really I am through with this thread. The reality is, you can believe what you want. But Howie, you know the truth and I know the truth and no matter what you say/post, you can't change that.

The one true fact that came out of this thread is that everyone should use due dilligence as far as getting any drastic change done.

[iski]

Iski,

I disagree having watched this from the sidelines for quite some time now and feel obligated to comment since I am the one that recommend CR to Howie.


Flame on nothing else good can come of commenting further.

If the customer is not pleased with the service, they (Howie in this instance) have the right to state their case, Unbalanced.  If that is considered "flaming" then the torch engagement rules changed.  Weird assumption that there is no need for ANY further comment.  That is strange in and of itself, which makes me wonder hmmmmm.

Anyway, this illustrates why I choose whatever work I choose to do as carefully as I can.  Figure most do.  Need fewer hassles, not more.

[Hoist!]

I called Vern's/Buddy's shop to tell him it would be a mistake to clearance the cylinders the way that Vern said he was going to. It was a heads up for another shop owner. THAT is what I called about. I do care that the motor turns out well. That is ALL I care about at this point.

You are not happy. THAT's a fact. Is there anything I could have done differently to change that? Short of flying my whole crew to New York and repairing your motor for free, No I couldn't. The 2 mistakes we made, we took care of. Neither would have been detrimental to your build. Vern couldn't fit the pistons on the rod without clearancing...they were clearanced. The fin being broken, wouldn't have caused any motor issues....it was repaired. The wait on the cams was unavoidable. Nothing I could have done about that. We ordered them. We constantly have them on order. There is only one place to get the cores and we all get them from there. As a matter of fact I even spoke to Mike(Andrews) about it at the Cincinnatti show. Wes was the one in contact with them from the beginning. They had to send the cores out to have them hardened. That was the big delay. Nothing I could've done would have changed that. Believe me, it would have stopped about 400 phone calls...I did everything I could to get those cores in.

I didn't blame you for anything. I stated the fact that it was my idea to get the cylinders back due to something you called here in a panic over. I don't regret doing that. I would rather be safe than sorry in any case. It was not your idea. As a matter of fact, I have an e-mail stating the Vern was going to use the pistons again but you wanted us to check them because of Alex' fine machine work on the wrong piston, which actually wouldn't have hurt anything, but we were trying to make you comfortable. Again, better safe than sorry. I also have e-mails from you stating how happy you are with your motor and how it made more horsepower than Wes told you it would. And that is with improperly clearanced pistons? I think not.
So Axtell was wrong on the clearances, John Sachs was wrong on the clearances, Cycle-Rama was wrong on the clearances and Vern has got the hot ticket...got it.

Really I am through with this thread. The reality is, you can believe what you want. But Howie, you know the truth and I know the truth and no matter what you say/post, you can't change that.

The one true fact that came out of this thread is that everyone should use due dilligence as far as getting any drastic change done.

Well, you can have the last word here. I'm moving on with my engine, and this thread was started specifically for what you finally said in the last sentence. Buyer Beware!

I'm the asshole. I'm the PIA, I talk too much. The whole mess is my fault, and you did 2 little things wrong. There. You happy now?

This whole thing is ridiculous. That you even came here to blame me as your excuse for only one reason...to salvage your reputation, is to be expected. But blaming a customer, who only paid you for something that was painful to finally get done correctly, is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Getting my work done right, after the third time, and in a timely fashion, would have done much more for your reputation than fighting with me here. You know I recommended a lot of people to you. Now they might have second thoughts about using you. Maybe some loss of business? Wow, wrong time to wake up. The time would have been before you sent my parts back wrong, twice.

Keep the spinning wheel going. Maybe some are naive enough to believe you, that the customer caused things to be delivered wrong. Lame! And you're only human and make mistakes. That flies once, but twice until, you're caught at it? Gimme a break! I know what's what. I can sleep at night.

Too little, too late! Lick your wounds and get over it. I'm moving on and doing what I have to. I've learned to get everything from the guy doing the job from now on, and not rely on people who can point fingers because they're not the ones building it!

Hoist!

[Unbalanced]

Iski,

Weird assumption that there is no need for ANY further comment.

Sorry I felt I had nothing left to comment on until your post, I had said my peace.