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Author Topic: Things amateurs don't like....  (Read 6961 times)

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Ironhorse

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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2008, 11:15:33 AM »

I share what I was taught at police motor school, and it is what I pass on in class.
This is all based on the results of extensive LAPD motor accident investigations.

Take a typical riding scenario riding along at 50mph on a "Two Wheeled In Line Articulated Vehicle", fancy words for motorcycle. You have "two wheels", they travel straight when they are "in line", and there is "articulation, or movement" at the handlebars. We the rider, or "the load", sit behind the bars, somewhere just in front of the rear wheel.

As the bike moves along at 50mph:
The front and rear wheel are in alignment.
Both wheels are rolling forward at the same speed

Now for whatever reason, a deer runs out, someone turns across your path of travel, whatever reason, you have to BRAKE. As you apply BOTH brakes, the front end dives down and becomes heavier as weight transfers forward, and the rear end becomes lighter and comes up. As a result, the rear has a higher propensity to lock up, because it is becoming lighter and has less tire contact and less traction. If you have ever locked up a rear wheel, chances are you may have felt is slide to the side. It can slide either to the left or the right, but for the sake of this explanation let's say it slides to the right.

So now the bike is moving along and......
The front wheel is rolling along at 50mph and pointed straight
The rear wheel is NOT rolling at all (0mph), and is pointed off to the side as the rear end slides around.

Picture in your head ONE motorcycle and each wheel is pointed in a different direction. The front is straight and rolling forward, and the rear, which has slid to the right and is OUT OF alignment with the front wheel is NOT rolling at all. We the load are sitting in front of the rear wheel, so our body is out of alignment with the front end too.

Now their studies have shown that when you release the rear brake, that rear tire suddenly gains immediate traction and starts rolling, and goes from 0mph - 50mph in half a heart beat. And it travels in the direction it is pointing in,...... out of alignment with the front wheel and off to the side. This action can violently snap the whole rear end of the bike to the right using the steering stem as a hinge, and throw the rider off the bike to the right and over the bars (High Side). Sometimes what happens to inexperienced riders, is that when they hear that rear tire screeeeching, and they feel the rear end sliding around, they do on their bike what they do in their car, which is release the FOOT BRAKE PEDAL (remember in a car ALL we have is ONE brake pedal) which causes the above described high side. That is why on a non-ABS equipped bike they advocate keeping the rear brake locked. The other mistake some riders make is that they relase the brake before the bike stops. They lock it up and go 50-40-30-20-10mph and then release and are STILL thrown. Now I know there are instances where the locked rear end can come back around in line with the front end and riders have managed to release the rear brake at that one moment when the bike is back in alignment. And yes, while that CAN happen, I would not count on it happening at that moment.

So what can we do while the rear end is locked up and is sliding around? USE THE FRONT BRAKE, because it is the ONLY braking system we have left. Apply a good progressive squeeze until the bike stops. Hold onto the front end, keep your head and eyes up, and use that front brake to stop. If you lock up the front end, release, regain control of the front, and reapply with a firm progressive squeeze. Keep that rear locked up. And remember as long as you have control of the front end, you can still steer the bike even with the rear locked. It may not be as much control but it may be enough to get you out of harms way.

Having said all that, there are situations where you can release the rear brake, and that is low traction surfaces. Dirt bike riders often intentionally lock up the rear to "bring it around", then "gun it" to complete the slide. But that is in soft forgiving dirt while riding a lighter motorcycle. On clean, hard, high traction pavement with a heavy Harley, keep it locked up. On the street you may be able to get away with it on a wet road, but not on dry. On dry hard surfaces, when released, that rear wheel will bite into the road and that immediate traction may launch you.

Now I'm sure there are thousands of scenarios of "what coulds" out there, but this is what I was taught, this is what I practice, and this is what I pass on to others.

Mark
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porthole

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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2008, 11:18:38 AM »

Hogasm, have you ever gone over the Bay Bridge in VA?  Never did it on an MC, but I was towing a u-haul few years back in my truck and I had a death grip on the wheel...not a fan of high bridges. 

I cannot even imagine doing that on a MC.

Far more dangerous then cross winds on the Bay Bridge are inattentive drivers - it can get real bad

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/10/AR2007051001667.html

This is just one of many serious accidents on the bridge.

Been over it many times, quite a few on bikes. Only bad experience I had though was one night while the tunnels were closed for cleaning (looked like a giant car wash machine turned inside out) we got to sit though a tremendous thunderstorm - oh my.
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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2008, 11:20:53 AM »

Here's something else yesterday that baffled me.  There were a group of guys - about 15 - that I ran into at Thundercreek Harley in Chattanooga that had rode up from Atlanta.  Mostly mid-20's to mid-30's on a variety of bikes - Crossbones, Fatboy, VTX 1800 (nice looking bike, btw), Hayabusa, EG Standard, Shadow, etc.  Just a bunch of friends riding with no particular loyalty to one brand or type of bike.  Oddly enough the only one all decked out in riding gear from head to toe was the one on the Hayabusa.  As they were leaving Thundercreek, all headed out moderate speed.  All of a sudden everyone stopped, made u-turns, came back, and was all waiting on one rider.  Seems the guy on the Hayabusa dropped it as he was pulling out at the bottom of the driveway.  It does have a kind of a bump like a speed bump and then a dip with a little bit of sand but no one else had any problems.  The only thing I saw different was that everyone else came to a complete stop and then pulled out.  He seemed to kind of come to a rolling stop and then gassed it.  Thundercreek ALWAYS has tons of people there so there were a lot of people outside at the picnic tables.  Everyone standing outside was staring as if they were as confused as I was.  
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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2008, 11:22:53 AM »

Excellent post Mark!!! :2vrolijk_21:

I still gotta get out and see you! We can never get enough training and practice. I try to practice every time I ride. But sometimes you're practicing bad habits you've picked up over the years, and need to be retaught the right way! I'm not too proud to say I'm always learning, even though I've been riding for years! ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2008, 11:33:56 AM »

Far more dangerous then cross winds on the Bay Bridge are inattentive drivers - it can get real bad

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/10/AR2007051001667.html

This is just one of many serious accidents on the bridge.

Been over it many times, quite a few on bikes. Only bad experience I had though was one night while the tunnels were closed for cleaning (looked like a giant car wash machine turned inside out) we got to sit though a tremendous thunderstorm - oh my.

I was thinking of the north Bay Bridge, not the tunnel bay bridge...  The Tunnel bridge has its own beauty, especially when foggy - been on there and could not see much past the end of the hood!  My family is from the Easter Shore, so I have done the tunnel since I was a kid and it was two lanes. 

The Bay Bridge Maryland side, is so freakin high, scares the crap outta me!
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TheVgirl

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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2008, 11:39:47 AM »

Excellent post, Ironhorse!  I think they should have classes with some beat up mid-weight bikes to practice on!  The guy I bought the banana from taught his wife and daughter how to ride including skidding to stops.  Maybe I need to buy some version of an 800 to learn how to ride in gravel, grass, mud, and practice more advanced turns.  

Yesterday someone asked if I wanted to go to the next Nitro drags.  I laughed.  The Nitro drags are motorcycle dirt dragracing.  The road to get to the track is gravel, filled with ruts, mud, and bunch of drunk rednecks in cars!  Sounds like an accident just waiting to happen.  The whole concept always baffled me anyway.  Why would anyone take their Roadking down a chunky dirt strip spitting dirt up all over their bike just for the heck of it?  (www.nitrodirtdrags.com).

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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2008, 11:41:26 AM »

The Bay Bridge Maryland side, is so freakin high, scares the crap outta me!

ME TOO!!!
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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2008, 11:50:34 AM »

Excellent post, Ironhorse!  I think they should have classes with some beat up mid-weight bikes to practice on!  The guy I bought the banana from taught his wife and daughter how to ride including skidding to stops.  Maybe I need to buy some version of an 800 to learn how to ride in gravel, grass, mud, and practice more advanced turns.  

Yesterday someone asked if I wanted to go to the next Nitro drags.  I laughed.  The Nitro drags are motorcycle dirt dragracing.  The road to get to the track is gravel, filled with ruts, mud, and bunch of drunk rednecks in cars!  Sounds like an accident just waiting to happen.  The whole concept always baffled me anyway.  Why would anyone take their Roadking down a chunky dirt strip spitting dirt up all over their bike just for the heck of it?  (www.nitrodirtdrags.com).



Them races are a blast V! You gotta see the outlaw ones with no front wheels! :o ;) :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2008, 11:59:46 AM »

Really?  When I saw their demo in Atlanta a few years ago, I thought Dr. Donna told me it was only a video series!!!  That would be fantastic!!  Ironhorse, got any leads??

V, they teach their course in Port Richey, FL.

https://www.ridelikeapro.com/html/signupform.asp

Have used their videos for years & have considered taking their class also.


On the gravel/rain grooves stuff - best not tense up - bike can handle that and worse.  Better rider control on bad road surfaces comes with practice & experience. Slowing down (carefully)  is usually a good idea.

Mike
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Ironhorse

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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2008, 12:19:46 PM »

Excellent post, Ironhorse!  I think they should have classes with some beat up mid-weight bikes to practice on!  The guy I bought the banana from taught his wife and daughter how to ride including skidding to stops.  Maybe I need to buy some version of an 800 to learn how to ride in gravel, grass, mud, and practice more advanced turns.  

Yesterday someone asked if I wanted to go to the next Nitro drags.  I laughed.  The Nitro drags are motorcycle dirt dragracing.  The road to get to the track is gravel, filled with ruts, mud, and bunch of drunk rednecks in cars!  Sounds like an accident just waiting to happen.  The whole concept always baffled me anyway.  Why would anyone take their Roadking down a chunky dirt strip spitting dirt up all over their bike just for the heck of it?  (www.nitrodirtdrags.com).




They do.

My Ride Like A Pro West Coast program has a small fleet of used Kawasaki Police Bikes that riders can take the course on. Nothing fancy, just a stripped down KZ1000. I got them at the suggestion of quite a few CVO owners. Seems like they were more inclined to learn the techniques when they didn't have to worry about dropping their own bike. Some folks want to take the course on their own bike, and I can appreciate it. But I have found that for a lot of riders it's easier to learn really lean a bike over and risk dropping it when it's not yours.

And since I'm close to the aiport, I developed my own "fly-n-ride" program. Riders come in before class, I pick them up, they take the course on a KZP, and I drop them back at the airport for a return flight. It saves them from having to get a hotel, rent a car and all that. I get a lot of riders from Northern California, Arizona, Colorado, Washington, Oregon, all the states that are within a couple hours flight time from Los Angeles.

Mark
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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2008, 12:39:19 PM »

Mark, excellent post and explanation of a high side fall which can get you killed in a heartbeat. like you, this is what I was taught, practice and explain to my students. In emergency situations there simply is not sufficient time (or brainpower under the influence of adrenaline) to determine which method should be used. So train yourself on one method, practice it and it just might save you life one day.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 12:48:00 PM by ultrafxr »
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hogasm

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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2008, 05:46:30 PM »

Hogasm, have you ever gone over the Bay Bridge in VA?  Never did it on an MC, but I was towing a u-haul few years back in my truck and I had a death grip on the wheel...not a fan of high bridges. 

I cannot even imagine doing that on a MC.

Tow the Donzi across it twice every year to fish tournaments.

Enough room for the boat and maybe a bicycle coming the other way

Look over the side.....long way down

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hogasm

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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2008, 05:55:05 PM »

Excellent post Mark!!! :2vrolijk_21:

I still gotta get out and see you! We can never get enough training and practice. I try to practice every time I ride. But sometimes you're practicing bad habits you've picked up over the years, and need to be retaught the right way! I'm not too proud to say I'm always learning, even though I've been riding for years! ;)

Hoist! 8)

When Kathy went to school for her learners I went to just see what bad habits I had gathered over the years.

I had many of them.

Learned alot from the instructor and she learned from a pro and not from me...so she did not get my bad habits :2vrolijk_21:
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porthole

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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2008, 06:02:19 PM »

Learned alot from the instructor and she learned from a pro and not from me...so she did not get my bad habits :2vrolijk_21:


Thats why I won't teach the kids to ride - they are on there own, and it worked out good.
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Re: Things amateurs don't like....
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2008, 08:03:58 PM »

Tow the Donzi across it twice every year to fish tournaments.

Enough room for the boat and maybe a bicycle coming the other way

Look over the side.....long way down


Over the years I have done and been in some crazy a$$ places...stuff that has you wondering if your life insurance was paid up.

I would take a patrol in Iraq over that freakin bridge.

Sean :carrot:
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