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[sadunbar]

This is the kind of crap that is really sad, People that do not know the specifics should not make comments about something they do not know! The dealer can do all there testing just fine with a TTS installed, what they cannot do is reprogram the ECM. Everything else works, so if the compression releases are disabled you have to reprogram the ECM to enable them so my guess is this is why the dealer was having trouble. We do not diminish a damn thing, what we do is stop the dealer from trying to reprogram the ECM. If you want them to reprogram the unit you simply return the unit to stock prior to taking it in to the dealer.  Everything you need comes with the product to do just that.

Steve...  Normally I can follow along when you educate those uneducated in the operations of your product.  But this time, the logic in your explanation escapes me...  

So let me talk outloud for a brief moment...  

It would seem the dealer tech noticed unexpected things within the customers ECM, notably the compression releases disabled.  The dealer attempted to enable the compression releases - and was unable to do so.  The dealer tech somewhat logically assumed the ECM was defective and replaced it.  The dealer tech then did the next logical thing - which was to send the 'defective' ECM to the factory for analysis.  

The reason the dealer could not enable the compression releases was presumably the presence of the TTS software.  Thus the presence of the TTS software hindered the ability of the dealer tech to service the customer's ECM.  The end effect of this sequence of events has caused the customers ultimate issue of having lost his ECM containing the TTS software.

Twolane suggested in his post that perhaps the TTS software in the customers ECM may have 'altered in some way the ability of a shop to read or service the ECM'.  Speaking as someone uneducated in the specifics of your product, this appears to be an accurate statement.

So I am a bit unclear as to your response to the issue - you chose to focus on the word testing and ignore the word service in your response.  

Of course, the end result is the customer did nothing wrong and the service tech did nothing wrong - and your TTS product did nothing wrong - but the customer is now hosed...  The only person capable of rectifying the situation appears to be you.  And, of course, you have no obligation to do so.  

And...since you chose to take a swipe at Brian and the EMS product ['The EMS unit does not allow you to do any programming nor does it allow you to do any diagnostics and as people are finding out it doesn't always work out of the box'] let me respond by saying my personal experience is that Brian would rectify the situation.

I have to agree with the comments of so many others...I don't understand the tenor of your communications with customers/potential customers.  I have to agree with the prevailing consensus of..... Play nice and be one of the guys and you won't be (so easily) baited.

[digga25]

Miken, I had the TTS on my 09 serg, and It was a 100% better than stock, but could not get rid of a few problems, off idle stumble, engine light on, no cruise, limited power with engine light on. I must admit I have 0 experience with tuning procedures or dyno machines. Although I  feel this product was a good fit for some, I had problems with it due to my inexperience.I purchased the Rev Perf EMS and it was a plug and play product. You dont have to do any vtune runs and connect the computer to the bike and blend and blend. The rev perf does all the work.If you change something,pipes,a/c,cams, the tuner just reprograms itself. Then JUST RIDE.

[HOGMIKE]

Miken, I had the TTS on my 09 serg, and It was a 100% better than stock, but could not get rid of a few problems, off idle stumble, engine light on, no cruise, limited power with engine light on. I must admit I have 0 experience with tuning procedures or dyno machines. Although I  feel this product was a good fit for some, I had problems with it due to my inexperience.I purchased the Rev Perf EMS and it was a plug and play product. You dont have to do any vtune runs and connect the computer to the bike and blend and blend. The rev perf does all the work.If you change something,pipes,a/c,cams, the tuner just reprograms itself. Then JUST RIDE.

You found a product that works for YOU!
That's what's nice about having choices.
There are some who never open anything on their bikes except the gas cap (and, believe me, some have problems with THAT!!!) Then there are others that like to rebuild their motors just for fun! And a whole lot of owners that fall in the middle somewhere.
I have to agree with the thoughts of "can't we all just get along"? (quote from a "famous" source)! LOL
My personal experience with Steve C. was fine, we got to an area that was over my head, and I had to say: "time out"...I'm lost! No problem, he answered my questions and cleared up some of my misunderstandings.
Personalities are always going to challenge some people!
JMHO

[Steve Cole]

There is a bit more to it if all you do is look around at Twolanerider posts. Each and every time TTS is brought up he jumps in and repeatedly says things he knows nothing about the TTS unit and proceeds to bring up the EMS unit along with his little shots at our unit. So after enough of these I've said something about it and I'm sorry if that rubs some of you the wrong way but enough is enough. Brain (Rev) makes a fine unit but it is not without issues and all anyone has to do is open there eyes and read the internet to find it. Does that make it bad unit, NO as it works for some right out of the box, but others it does not. You do not see me jumping into the threads about the EMS and bringing that up and pushing TTS units.

You are, unfortunately, well and truly hosed.  Though I would have a very pointed conversation with the dealership about ever replacing parts, especially significant parts, on my bike without letting me know about it first. 

They could.  But....

Don't remember all the details but Cole wrote that with the advent of his MT8 files their use altered the ECM in a way that changed and diminished how the dealerships could access the ECM.

These post bring responses like this all because of his misleading statements!

That's exactly right, a big disadvantage in that the dealer cannot service. Couple that with the TTS policy of forcing you to re-buy their product when the dealer changed my ECM has me re-thinking my options on the 2nd time around.

Then to come cover his butt he post this

Steve, first off I did specifically say I wasn't familiar with the details and didn't have firm recollection of what you'd said earlier.  Which is why I also suggested, twice, that questions should be specifically put to you.

The latter suggestion, however, did have the slightest bit of facete added because, well; you're just so damned predictable.  There are times it has seemed one might suggest the sky is blue and your response would be to say it wasn't TTS's fault.  Play nice and be one of the guys and you won't be (so easily) baited.

Honestly, whether you believe it or not or give a chit or not (and I don't personally care either way), I say the following with the utmost sincerity.  You often do hurt your own cause with the tenor of your responses to the smallest of things or the slightest disagreements or equivocations.  Nice guys (looking for customers) really do finish farther ahead.  And since I do respect the capabilities of your product I actually don't like to see its possible users potentially alienated by your sometimes pissy attitude.

First off he DID NOT specifically say he wasn’t familiar with details, that was only stated after the crap he started. The rest of his BS is just to try and make himself feel better and try to look better about what he has started here!  Its clear what he is doing if you just read what he says……” and I don't personally care either way”!

This isn’t the first time he has done this either, but this is the first time I’ve said something about it as its getting old now. Wouldn’t it be nice if you do not know anything about it to stay out of posting made up BS?  That would solve a lot of it right there and if I seem pissy about it I think all of you would be too with people like this spreading rumors about something they admittedly know nothing about. I am human and I do make mistakes but we try our best here to do all we can for all customers.

The dealer can do all normal services with our product installed, and had the instructions been followed can do everything possible the bike can have done. That is quit a bit different than what is being said!

The only thing that the dealer cannot do with the TTS code in place is reflash the ECM and that can be easily solve by following the procedure spelled out with the product. I only brought the EMS up AFTER Twolanerider pushed it into this conversation as he does each and every time. So I feel the comparison as to what would happen in the same case is valid. If the EMS really tuned itself as some of you are trying to say why is it that they have to be sent back on some bikes right from day one when the bikes will not tune out? The truth is NO unit can tune itself right for all combinations and they need to be tuned/calibrated around the parts that are being used. If Rev has a close calibration on hand, life is good but the same can be said most all reprogramming units. The end goal is the same for all............. a good running bike.

In this case the dealer did things that should not have been done, or at least should have asked the customer about. As such that is where the responsibility lies. Is that our fault NO, but we are being made out as the bad ones here! There are company policies in place here that we follow like most all company's do, without the old ECM that the unit is locked too, the code to unlock it is gone. I have not talked to the customer so I do not know what options he was told he has at this point in time. We do not force anyone to do anything.

[mjb765]

I am not going to get into a TTS vs EMS debate, but I do have 1 idea or maybe just an opinion. The customer that bought the TTS originally is now left out in the cold--regardless of whose fault it is. The dealer should have told him what they were doing so he could say--"no, don't do that, I have a tuner installed". But that is now water under the bridge. Bottom line is the guy is now out of a tuner--and we all know that ain't cheap. Would it be that big of a deal to give him a new dongle if he can prove the dealer replaced his ECM by showing the receipt from the warranty work? Or at least offer him a deep discount on a new one? Not just 10 or 20%--there is more profit than that built into that thing. That would be the ultimate in standing behind the product and any misunderstanding or "attitude" as some have called it would go away and you would be left with--"they did the right thing" which goes a long way in the real world. Just my $.02

[Robmay]

TwoWrongs don't make a right....just sayin.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I wonder if this happens when you have a MT7 file in the ECM?

Nope.

[Twolanerider]

I had the TTS Mastertune installed on bike and all worked well until.... I took my bike into the dealer for some service work. The HD digital technician could not communicate with my ECM so dealer assumed my ECM was defective and replaced. Now I cannot use the TTS to re-tune my bike as it was married to the old ECM. TTS tells me that I need to send them my new ECM, my old ECM, and my TTS dongle so that they can resolve. First of all I cannot retrieve the old ECM, as dealer returned it to HD. Any work around or suggestions, or do I have to repurchase a new TTS? Seems like a real PITA!

And to circle the wagons back to the beginning after Steve's predictable diatribe; Miken, sorry you're out the expense due to the dealership's mistake.  They should have done something to compensate.  Have any ideas yet how you'll proceed to get the bike dialed back in?

[beechflyr]

Wouldn't the nonstock code be seen when the dealer plugged into
the ECM? Wouldn't that alert the serviceman if he knew what he was
looking at? Probably undertrained as most help these days seems to be.
Frankly if my dealer messed up like this they would make the situation
right by procuring a new dongle for me.

[miken488]

Steve:  What would be your solution in my case where the dealer does not have the old ECM, it has been returned to Harley for warranty coverage. I find it hard to understand that there is not some sort of a work around or charge that could be paid to add a second license or pay for the additonal dongle?

[Boatman]

I am not going to get into a TTS vs EMS debate, but I do have 1 idea or maybe just an opinion. The customer that bought the TTS originally is now left out in the cold--regardless of whose fault it is. The dealer should have told him what they were doing so he could say--"no, don't do that, I have a tuner installed". But that is now water under the bridge. Bottom line is the guy is now out of a tuner--and we all know that ain't cheap. Would it be that big of a deal to give him a new dongle if he can prove the dealer replaced his ECM by showing the receipt from the warranty work? Or at least offer him a deep discount on a new one? Not just 10 or 20%--there is more profit than that built into that thing. That would be the ultimate in standing behind the product and any misunderstanding or "attitude" as some have called it would go away and you would be left with--"they did the right thing" which goes a long way in the real world. Just my $.02

X2
Help Miken488 out.

[sadunbar]

There is a bit more to it if all you do is look around at Twolanerider posts. Each and every time TTS is brought up he jumps in and repeatedly says things he knows nothing about the TTS unit and proceeds to bring up the EMS unit along with his little shots at our unit. So after enough of these I've said something about it and I'm sorry if that rubs some of you the wrong way but enough is enough. Brain (Rev) makes a fine unit but it is not without issues and all anyone has to do is open there eyes and read the internet to find it. Does that make it bad unit, NO as it works for some right out of the box, but others it does not. You do not see me jumping into the threads about the EMS and bringing that up and pushing TTS units.

So Steve, let's see if I am following your logic...

Twolane - a customer of the EMS product -  has made several supportive, endorsing statements of the EMS product...

And in your mind, the supportive statements made by Twolane of the EMS product is justification for you [in your mind]  - as a competitive manufacture - to make negative, misleading comments towards Brian's EMS product.

Fascinating thought process...   

[Keats]

I am in a situation where it looks like i have buy a third tuner for my bike.
After spending over $2000 for a SERT  and a  SEPST and coresponding dyno time, these are only as good as the tuner

Steve is not making me feel warm and fuzzy about customer service and doing what might be construed as fair.

So i guess that the EMS or the Zippers unit will have to do.

[grc]

One point that was made does touch on a feeling that I've had for some time now.  There are people on this site who constantly plug the EMS product even in threads that aren't asking for recommendations for alternate tuning products.  I've even commented once before about so-called glowing "reviews" of the product by people who have never posted before or since.  I have no personal stake in any of these companies or their devices, but when someone asks a question about a particular issue with a PC or SERT or TTS, I'd like to see folks actually answer the question if they can and not always turn the thread into a sales pitch for a competing product.  To each his own; my point here is that there is no one perfect solution for everyone, and a guy with a question about a TTS he already paid for doesn't necessarily want to hear a sales pitch about a different product for another pile of cash.

Regardless, this thread has gotten way off base from what it started out as, and it needs to be redirected back to the real question at hand.  What, if anything, can be done to help miken488 get his new ECM tuned with the device he already paid handsomely for and had screwed up through no fault of his own.  Blaming the dealership is the easy way out, but if the tech did not know that an aftermarket product had been used on the ECM then it's a little hard to put the blame on him. And considering the fact that most owners aren't experts on the details of the products they buy, I don't see where the customer had the responsibility to know that the dealership might need to do something to the ECM and that TTS made their product in such a way that it can keep the dealership from reflashing the ECM.  So at this point the dealer most likely doesn't feel responsible for the aftermarket product, and the owner isn't an expert so he obviously doesn't feel responsible.  The folks who made the decision, for whatever reason, to design their software so that the dealer couldn't reflash the ECM, which made the tech incorrectly assume it was defective, somehow think they also have no responsibility and are willing to suffer all sorts of negative publicity rather than make an exception to a "policy".  So be it.  Once more we learn that the buyer must always beware, and the guy with the least control of the situation is the guy who gets stuck with the bill.  Big surprise.  Also a big surprise, a company gets an opportunity to be a hero and get good press, and they blow it over some inflexible "policy".  Only this time it isn't just a customer talking to his buddies at the local bar, it's spread all over the internet.  Duh!

Miken488, I think you need to talk directly to Mr. Cole on the phone and let this thread die.  Further shots at TTS by us folks will not do your cause any good.  I think you also need to have a face to face with the manager/dealer about their part in this.  Maybe between the three of you a compromise that shares the responsibility and cost could be worked out.


Jerry

[lonewolf55]

You can get it upgraded to a two bike dongle. Just don't know why that would be TTS's responsability.