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Author Topic: TTS & ECM Change Help?  (Read 18288 times)

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CVOStreetglide

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2011, 10:00:25 PM »

Harley's charges would actually be to the dealership.  And those aren't so much a "bill" as a hand that reaches out and takes what it wants via accounting.  The dealership may attempt to bill the customer.  But since the work done causing the ECM to go away was unrequested or unconfirmed to begin with there is a lot of room for discussion there.


Yea but "The Motor Company" can always void his warranty as it pertains to the ECM and any perceived damage that was done.  The only savior will be Magnuson--Moss Warranty act IF any thing is done.

Regards

Jerry
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Razorback

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2011, 09:20:47 AM »

Wow, that was a lot of reading, first off I would assume that the tts has some pop up box warning you to either save the stock map or explain that the new mt8 files will change the operating system. Even with these warning things can go wrong when one party (dealer) is working with a second party's (tts) system. I suggest to stick with one or the other. Either the shop that can sell and service the tts stuff or go with the tuner the dealer offers to sell and service.
However, I don't see where the dealer did anything wrong here, after all, they are a Harley-Davidson dealer and not a tts dealer. They are trained (hopefully) to work with what they know and sell and shouldn't have to learn every little detail about every aftermarket device out there, not that changing the operating system is a small thing, it is a relatively huge deal and has been made out here by the tts company to be almost irrelevant when it is not. It has been stated here by the owner to have been done this way to keep others out. So I take this that access could still be had by dealers while retaining all the great mt8 features.
As for the way this was handled, it outright sucks, no other way to put it, the tts guy could have given the guy (which is already a customer) a new dongle in which he likely has very little money into the hard parts and keep or at least attempt to build a good customer relationship. Instead he points the finger at everyone else and then one of his vendors has to step up to the plate at his own expense, while once again the tts owner profits. Arrogance at it's finest.
Steve George, I would find a new unit to send out with my product if I were you if this is the kind of customer service the current untis provide.
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Twolanerider

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2011, 12:32:19 PM »


Yea but "The Motor Company" can always void his warranty as it pertains to the ECM and any perceived damage that was done.  The only savior will be Magnuson--Moss Warranty act IF any thing is done.

Regards

Jerry

That's not new news though.  We all understand going in that if we change something it's on us.
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miken488

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2011, 09:22:10 PM »

Ok, went back to the dealership to address a continuing brake issue and advised them that I had the TTS installed. Their report back was that they could not check the software for the ABS updates due to the Mastertune installation. Are they correct in that the ECM cannot be accessed for ABS updates with the TTS installed? Seems kind of crazy to me?
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Steve Cole

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2011, 09:57:21 PM »

They cannot reprogram the ECM with a TTS calibration installed. If they have an issue with that all you need to do is use the Save/Restore feature built in the software and put the original calibration back in for them. This is spelled out in the manuals and in the software. Then the bike is back to just how it was prior to the TTS being installed. Once finished just put the TTS calibration back in.

What's funny about this one is the ABS calibration is not in the ECM to start with. So only god knows what they are looking for.
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faceracer

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2011, 09:36:33 AM »

Ok, went back to the dealership to address a continuing brake issue and advised them that I had the TTS installed. Their report back was that they could not check the software for the ABS updates due to the Mastertune installation. Are they correct in that the ECM cannot be accessed for ABS updates with the TTS installed? Seems kind of crazy to me?

My local dealer just told me the ABS is a separate computer and having the TTS tune would be of no consequence when having my ABS software updated.
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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2011, 01:06:37 PM »

Ok, went back to the dealership to address a continuing brake issue and advised them that I had the TTS installed. Their report back was that they could not check the software for the ABS updates due to the Mastertune installation. Are they correct in that the ECM cannot be accessed for ABS updates with the TTS installed? Seems kind of crazy to me?

Since the ABS ECU (module) is separate from the ECM, it appears your dealership is likely jerking your chain.  Perhaps they are among those who like to screw with folks who don't drink the Kool-Aid and buy nothing but H-D branded stuff at their dealership?

Anyhow, rather than tell the dealership you have a TTS map installed, it would probably be best to just put the original map back in for any trip to the dealership for service.  If they did have to flash the ECM, they couldn't do so until you put everything back to stock anyway.  And even if they don't have to flash the ECM, why give them information to use against you?  One of the big advantages of the TTS over the SEPST is this ability to restore the ECM to it's original state so "Big Brother" can't play games with you.


Jerry
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Twolanerider

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #82 on: August 29, 2011, 01:34:56 PM »

One of the big advantages of the TTS over the SEPST is this ability to restore the ECM to it's original state so "Big Brother" can't play games with you.


Jerry

That flexibility is a benefit Jerry.  But the potential necessity to satisfy Mother Harley is a handicap.  One of the locals here is a TTS user.  He's had no problems with the device itself.  He hired dyno time to get the bike dialed in and it runs well.

The guy does anything other than oil changes at the local dealer.  So once when he had a rideability problem he took the bike in for service.  Engine wasn't running well at all.  It had run well on his relatively significant engine build for about 15k miles.  So obviously something was failing to work correctly.

Trouble was the local shop wouldn't, couldn't, or didn't know how to diagnose his bike with the TTS onboard.  He could and did swap it back to "stock."  But with the stock settings re-established to pacify his servicer the bike ran like crap.  Different crap than his original complaint.  But crap nonetheless.  Enough so that in this particular version of the puppy chasing its tail nothing was ever really accomplished.

Admittedly we know, or should know, going in that when we make changes to base systems (especially engine management systems) that "it's on us" from there on out.  But the suggestion that is prevalent that TTS has a patina of seamlessness just isn't absolutely the case. 

Where any "fault" might lie for that lack of seamlessness is all too often a matter for pretentious self-justification.  But for the poor schmuck who's just a rider and pays his hard earned cash just to make it go fault location doesn't matter.  Whomever's fault it might be the overall system can cause a pain in the ass at just the time you only want easy service and to get back on the road.

This particular guy ended up paying almost $400 to the local shop to accomplish nothing.  He had a failing crank sensor.  We made a best guess at it based solely on behavior and happened to get lucky with the first shot.  Having to satisfy Harley was an expensive and unrequited pain.
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HOGMIKE

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #83 on: August 29, 2011, 06:51:14 PM »

Seems to me that the customer should have informed the dealer what he has done to the bike so they have all the info. If they had known about the TTS calibration all this would not have happened. I think the dealer went all out to fix the issue and as far as replacing parts under warranty and not asking the customer for permission that is a lot of bull. Dealers and techs don't have time to play "mother may I" games. Get the bike on the lift, get it fixed, and out the door and on to the next job. I bet the next time he takes the bike in for work he still won't have a H-D calibration in the ECM and this is going to happen again. As customers don't you want the tech working on your bike to make sure it haas all the latest updates on the ECM and radio software? I check all this on any bike I do a service on and I am not going to call the customer and ask his permission to upgrade the radio software as an example. For one thing he probably won't be available to talk until he gets off work, then he will want to spend a half hour asking questions about the reflash on the radio and god knows what else.

In summary I think dealer did what he should have done and the customer screwed up by not passing along the info that he was using a tuning device or not putting the H-D calibration back in. H-D now knows he had modded his ECM as the Techlink gathers all the info on a bike and every day uploads to H-D corporate tech services. Big Brother IS watching you.

If a dealer/tech does not have the time to call me with a question about my $40K bike, I think I'll go elsewhere.
Of course, that's just ME, others may be ok with that sort of procedure.

 8)
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HOGMIKE

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2011, 07:53:14 PM »

My ABS was updated with TTS onboard ... no snafu's
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Steve Cole

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #85 on: August 29, 2011, 11:29:58 PM »

Look guys we do not want any of you to have a problem with our product installed. The simple truth is you can have it with anything installed in the ECM. We never put the ability in the software to return to original programming there to hide your modifications on the bike. The dealer can do all normal service work with the TTS installed, BUT, reprogram the ECM. All the trouble codes still work and read the same and they can still diagnose problems with it in place. They just cannot reprogram it. We were faced with a problem when we gave you the ability to do Cam tuning and EGR tuning. There needed to be away to provide you with the tools to do the testing to make the adjustments and make it all work together. In order to do all this we have to rewrite the code to handle it. Now we could have allowed for everything to be the same but the downside was that if the ECM got reprogrammed by any other tool you would have a dead ECM. This is because most tools do not reprogram the entire ECM only one part of it. So we chose to lock it and stop it from happening, thinking this was the better way to handle it.

Now let's look at it from another angle. You take your bike in for service with a modified engine and a modified calibration from anything other than Mastertune to make it all work right together and your out on the road. The Tech plugs in and notices it's not the new update calibration from HD. Since he can program the new update and get paid by HD for it, in it goes and they do not stop to ask you. So now your out the custom program that was in your bike from your local tuner with no way to put it back in. This is real and it happens today, doesn't matter if it's an EMS from Rev, SESPT, DL, SERT or any other programming device, except Mastertune which would not have allowed it to happen. There is a risk either way, but we believe that the method we chose is the safest all around.

The ability to go back to original is there for you to recover the ECM in case something happens during programming or if you remove your custom parts. If the bike needs the custom program to run right then you need to own up to it and leave it in place. As I said there is a risk no matter what you do and we have tried to keep it as small of a risk as possible.
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Twolanerider

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #86 on: August 30, 2011, 01:35:56 AM »

Look guys we do not want any of you to have a problem with our product installed. The simple truth is you can have it with anything installed in the ECM. We never put the ability in the software to return to original programming there to hide your modifications on the bike. The dealer can do all normal service work with the TTS installed, BUT, reprogram the ECM. All the trouble codes still work and read the same and they can still diagnose problems with it in place. They just cannot reprogram it. We were faced with a problem when we gave you the ability to do Cam tuning and EGR tuning. There needed to be away to provide you with the tools to do the testing to make the adjustments and make it all work together. In order to do all this we have to rewrite the code to handle it. Now we could have allowed for everything to be the same but the downside was that if the ECM got reprogrammed by any other tool you would have a dead ECM. This is because most tools do not reprogram the entire ECM only one part of it. So we chose to lock it and stop it from happening, thinking this was the better way to handle it.

Now let's look at it from another angle. You take your bike in for service with a modified engine and a modified calibration from anything other than Mastertune to make it all work right together and your out on the road. The Tech plugs in and notices it's not the new update calibration from HD. Since he can program the new update and get paid by HD for it, in it goes and they do not stop to ask you. So now your out the custom program that was in your bike from your local tuner with no way to put it back in. This is real and it happens today, doesn't matter if it's an EMS from Rev, SESPT, DL, SERT or any other programming device, except Mastertune which would not have allowed it to happen. There is a risk either way, but we believe that the method we chose is the safest all around.

The ability to go back to original is there for you to recover the ECM in case something happens during programming or if you remove your custom parts. If the bike needs the custom program to run right then you need to own up to it and leave it in place. As I said there is a risk no matter what you do and we have tried to keep it as small of a risk as possible.

Cole, no one is saying it's unnecessary, unwarranted or even illogical.  Merely that the system can present a hazard that is a step more than a nuisance.  Especially for an owner not fully invested in knowing all he might about the product.  That is sometimes compounded, of course, by the reaction of some dealerships whether their reaction is warranted or not.

It's been said, more than once, that we as owners accept the risk when we change things; knowingly or not.  That your product, and others, can open up those risks in different ways is part of the product and part of our ownership.

We, generally, know that.  We understand it and accept it.  That we may bitch about the totality of the experience sometimes is simply human nature.  It is not, however, something you need to repeatedly run to the ramparts to defend yourself against.  You do yourself and your product a disservice when you do.  Just because someone says "the sky is blue" it's not necessary to respond saying "it's not TTS's fault." 

We're big boys and girls.  We make product decisions knowingly.  If someone wants to be helpful along the way when there's a hiccough that's great.  If not, we're still ok.  "Helpful" is not the feeling you've often left the crowd with though.  Sometimes you pull it off.  Other times the perception is of insecurities run amok.

Your remarks immediately above here are generally of the more helpful and explanatory.  And it's appreciated.  I for one find you a lot more palatable (and by extension your product much more savory) when you're talking with us rather than at us.
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hdbrad03

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2011, 02:23:40 AM »

My ABS was updated with TTS onboard ... no snafu's

That's a good point but where does the ABS control lie? In the ECU or is there a separate CPU for the ABS system? So when our bikes were flashed for an ABS upgrade does it override the current TTS program??


 :bananarock: :bananarock:

    Brad
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Steve Cole

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2011, 11:51:49 AM »

ABS is its own deal and does not affect the ECM program which is where the engine tune is.

As for how I post I will try to do better in the future.
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HOGMIKE

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Re: TTS & ECM Change Help?
« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2011, 02:02:44 PM »

ABS is its own deal and does not affect the ECM program which is where the engine tune is.

As for how I post I will try to do better in the future.

 :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
On the other hand.................
"Illegitimi non carborundum"!!

 8)
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