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[grc]

Hogfn,

I still recommend that anyone making changes during the warranty period keep the stock parts.  If you have a failure, just remove the PC, put the stock exhaust and air cleaner back on, and then take the bike in for repair.  What they can't see, they can't use as an excuse.  The problem with the SERT, however, is that I don't know of any way to undo that short of swapping out the entire ECM.  Even if you could reload the stock map, the ECM still retains the info that the SERT was installed.

This was a lot easier back when the warranty was only one year.  I just rode my bikes stock (pretty much) for the first year, then did as I pleased.  It's too hard to leave these things stock for two years, since many of them run like chit stock.

Jerry

[porthole]

So, it is 24 hours since the dealer told me it is not covered, haven't calmed down much, just a little.
I have a call into the factory rep for our area, he actually has a phone number that sends you directly to his voice mail, better then calling the moco's stupid "press 1 for English line of bull........... This is the same rep that covered my tourpak lid for a paint issue, so I have some hope.

On my way to the dealer for a discussion, since I told him I wanted the bike fixed either way I am going to inspect the parts myself, take a few pictures of the piston etc. I will also request to see his tool for checking valve spring height and tension, hey how can you say it is my fault if you didn't check the valve springs?

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but aren't all the SE parts like the SERT sold "for racing only"; meaning there's no warranty once it's installed?  

No, SE parts are listed with stupid little icons, traffic light for 50 state legal, or a stop hand "US EPA legal but not in California" etc.

The SERT is not listed in the catalog I have, so I can't see what icon applies. But, the disclaimer on page 6 of the manual only states that it "... may reduce or void the Limited Warranty Coverage". The key word there is "may" and "shall".

Just out of curiosity did this dealer do the install of SERT, and did the map download? If it was I would hope they would take care of you, and do the right thing. Good luck.

DireDood, no, I bought it and did it myself, were not talking rocket science here, load a program into a laptop, plug a module on the the bike and do a download. The map is the same as a stage i download. The 2 main differences (3 if you count cost) is that 1, you can modify the map, which I did, I LOWERED THE REV LIMIT, and 2, you can leave the laptop hooked and go for a ride and see a graph of every thing going on with the engine the the ECM controls or looks at.

_Beagle

I was a little facetious here with my comments about the heat. The actual valve bending problem was 2 days later, leaving my driveway going to work at 6am, so it was not fully warmed up or abused since I tend to ride away as quietly as possible. I shifted from 1st to 2nd at about 2-2200 rpm and a few seconds later the engine died.

One nice thing about that law, when you win you can also collect all attorneys fees and any related costs.
Jerry

And vice versa, if you lose the manufacturer can recoup costs from you.

It looks like the dealer should have some responsibility for installing parts if he is fully aware that he is putting the bike in violation of HD's warranty conditions.  

Probably a valid point, but I have not let the dealer do anything outside of warranty, even with that, when I had my tourpak lid replaced under warranty I did the work.

I did 18 years a class A line tech for Chrysler, one thing I learned is that I would not let most technicians (and I use that term loosely) touch my vehicles for anything outside of warranty issues.

I have my reservations about how my engine will be put back together. I was always kind of meticulous doing my work, everything torqued to spes, all clearances done properly etc, I even use to go through the troubl to do 3 angle valve grinds, but I could work next to a guy who didn't do anything by the book and still get away with it

Now you have me running scared.  7 months ago, after much deliberation and consulting with different riders from this site (folks I've never met but trust implicitly), I changed out my pipes to Freedom, added PC w/custom map, stage 1 a/c, and had it dynoed at a local recommended race shop.  

If you have read enough .... do your work, download the stage map and run the PC over it, that way if you have a problem you can pop the PC out and still have the "it OK it a Harley part" Stage 1 download, the bike will run OK and the shop will not know the difference.

I thought about this option, but there was no one in my area that could dyno either the SERT or the PC, and I liked the options the SERT gave you, which is why I went with it.

continued.............

[porthole]

To tell the truth, I thought about running my bike against Matt Smith on Fathers Day and spanking him but I decided not to show him up since my daughter was with me.

Pro Stock Motorcycle
Final Round  

ENGLISHTOWN, N.J. - SUMMIT FastNews - Results of final, round 4 eliminations in Pro Stock Motorcycle at the NHRA POWERade Drag Racing Series, 37th annual K&N Filters SuperNationals presented by Strauss Auto:
 W/L  Driver                                     R-Time    E-Time  Speed
 
 (W) Matt Smith (Torco/Skull Gear Buell)         0.107      7.111 185.38
 (L) Karen Stoffer (GEICO Motorcycle Suzuki)     0.030      7.234 186.12

4:43 p.m. - Weather conditions: air temperature 90 degrees, relative humidity 47 percent, barometer 29.53 inches,adjusted altitude 2,801 feet, track temperature 127 degrees.
Smith was asleep at the light and Stoffer got off the starting line 0.077 seconds ahead of him. Stoffer held the lead almost to mid track but then Smith got by her. He pulled ahead to take the win. Matt Smith's incremental margins (negative if behind): 60ft(-0.072), 330 ft(-0.031), 660ft(0.001), 1,000ft(0.025). MOV: 0.0466 seconds (approximately 13 feet).

but there are other ways to gain insight into how you operate the bike.  Such things as tire replacement, belt use, maintenance logs, are just a start.

The factory tech dude actually had the tech go look at my rear tire, but at 11,000 miles he had nothing to "go on", my rear tire still has plenty of tread, no globs of rubber from doing smiley face donuts etc.,  and I think I might get another 5k out of it.
My belt has only been adjusted once, and that was by the dealer to loosen it a bit because of noise.
Maintenance logs ARE NOT REQUIRED for warranty coverage, but the dealer can easily see that I have bought 4 oil filters so far (1000, 2500, 5000, 8000 and it will be done again when the bike comes back).

Hogfn,
The problem with the SERT, however, is that I don't know of any way to undo that short of swapping out the entire ECM.  Even if you could reload the stock map, the ECM still retains the info that the SERT was installed.
Jerry

AH yep, that is a problem. I installed the SERT a year ago, I checked my map and it is dated 06/24/05.
I re-named it when I lowered the rev limit. So that is 1 year and over 8000 miles with out a problem.

[Screamin_Beagle]

Port,
   Keep us in the loop....I'd be interested to see what the rep has to say. Post those pictures when you get them.

_Beagle

[Midnight Rider]

I think it's crap the way they are handling this, and from what you describe, there's no way anything you did caused your problem.

However, does anyone here think that we are seeing the very first case of the MOCO's new "policy" about mods for '07 forward?.  When things change like this, there is so much room for misinterpretation of stated changes in policy/procedure, particularly when the MOCO makes statements about pulling dealer licenses for doing mods, etc...people start overreacting and go into the CYA mode of operation, including the techs on the phone.  I think this is going to be the way things are from this point forward, particularly on the '07 models.

I this bent valve case, there is no doubt that you will end up coming out on top, from what you describe, but it may take an attorney to get there, and that sucks big ones...I really hope they just do the right thing, since it's not an '07 bike, fix it, and everybody walks away as happy as one can be in this situation.

I think people who do mods to the '07's better really think hard about it...the MOCO/EPA has got both the consumer, and now the dealers, by the short hairs....

[harley56]

Harley certainly knows many non-street legal mods make it on to their bikes rolling down the highways.  A race tuner will void your warranty and even states in their catalog, "This race-use only software package..."  However; they usually only enforce this provision if they feel the failure has been caused by a non-street legal part, or improper installation of parts.  You should have a chance with the local rep if he can get milwaukee to believe you did nothing wrong.  It's in his best interest to have a happy customer.  Don't take it personally when they inquire about your rear tire, many customer's try to pull the wool over the dealer's and factory on a daily basis.  

As I'm sure you know the dealer has no reason to not want to get this authorized.  Parts are re-imbursed at retail, labor is covered at retail and flat rate is usually not that different from what a dealer charges for time.
Unfortunately, Harley and it's dealers are  not going to get better on this - in California all dealers I am aware of will no longer install anything but street legal, carb compliant components on all '07's.  Best of luck.

[porthole]

OK, I am even more pissed now. Not only did the rep not call me back (he called the shop wondering if I had talked to them) but after I looked at the engine I had to point out to the tech that the valve guide is cracked. [smiley=furious3.gif]

Another delay while we have to wait for that part to be ordered.

Anyway, I took a bunch of pictures and they can be seen here:

http://www.porthole2.com/porthole/photos_Rides_SEEG_bent_valve.htm

There are some obvious heat issues with the rear cylinder too. I checked the plugs frequently and they look good enough, but the back of the head has come coked up oil in the valley.

So I suggested he call back tech support, let them know that there is a bad valve guide and that probably caused the valve to stick.
BTW, there was no obvious indication that the valve hit the piston.

[Hogfn]

I'm not an expert, but for only #11,000 miles, that looks like excessive carbon buildup.  Am I right or is that normal?  Was most of your miles touring or city and what kind of gas did you run primarily.  If I'm way out in left field, let me know---I'd rather be in "left field" than where I'm presently sitting.....UGH!!!

Tom

[porthole]

I'm not an expert, but for only #11,000 miles, that looks like excessive carbon buildup.  Am I right or is that normal?  Was most of your miles touring or city and what kind of gas did you run primarily.  If I'm way out in left field, let me know---I'd rather be in "left field" than where I'm presently sitting.....UGH!!!

Tom

Carbon build up does seem high to me too.
Miles are probably 60-40, 60 highway.
Hight test all the time, about 50% WaWa and the remainder whatever is available.

[porthole]

Something else I thought of here. It may been just my imagination, but I recall thinking that the engine was making some odd noise in rear, almost like it was coming from the rear rocker box. Now I'm wondering if I actually heard the beginning of the guide going bad before bending the valve.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[arcticdude]

The heat coking could be from the valve not completely closing if the guide cracked before it stuck enough to bend the valve.  From the looks of that crack, it looks more like it occurred when the valve hit the piston.  So now the question is what caused the vale to stick/float in the first place.  Looking at the intake port, it doesn't look like the valve was seating.  Look at the carbon spikes that you see in the first picture of the head.  They shouldn't be there.  What's the front head ports look like?  The next point to make would be if the moco is going to deny warranty, then do you feel comfortable letting them do the repair work?  That would give you the ability to pursue the warranty issues further, but it may put you in the same boat 10k miles down the road.  Good luck with it.

[RJ749]

The [highlight]heat coking [/highlight]could be from the valve not completely closing if the guide cracked before it stuck enough to bend the valve.  So now the question is what caused the valve to stick/float in the first place.  Looking at the intake port, it doesn't look like the valve was seating.  Look at the [highlight]carbon spikes [/highlight]that you see in the first picture of the head.  

I just spent the weekend with some engineers from Weissach, Porsche's design and engineering facility, the same one that co-designed the V Rod.

During the conversations we were having they have now broken the world's gas supply into A,B and C categories.  This is to follow where they have coking and carbon issues as well as underperforming cars.  As you may expect, South America, Mexico etc are in the C for dirtiest, poorest quality fuel.  

What I found interesting and you may not suspect is that the US is now one third C, a fair amount of B and very little A.  Mostly due to ethanol and locally mandated mixtures of it.  10% ethanol causes the rating, Florida was sited as C and I imagine heat contributes to the effects as well since the hotter climates with emissions issues add ethanol.

We may all have to consider what additives we want to run in our bikes.  In the early days of fuel being mixed I recall all kinds of coking and carbon problems in many cars.  The cheaper the gas the fewer the "good" additives that reduce this and the engineers believe as we get away from the issues of those early days the gas companies that started adding things like "Techron" to eliminate this issue are certainly cutting back on it to stretch profit.

They are looking at additives which may assist in engine performance that the consumer will need to add to fuel.

So the issue may be one we all need to keep an eye on, what came first the guide failure or the carbon that caused it?

[Hogfn]

Rjob,
Good point.  And since he used mostly WaWa gas which has 10% ethanol, we may see a link here.  Guess I've made my last stop at WaWa (except for the coffee).  Need to find someone who is still selling fuel without the ethanol which is going to become much more difficult with the MTBE not being added now.

[RJ749]

Rjob,
Good point.  And since he used mostly WaWa gas which has 10% ethanol, we may see a link here.  Guess I've made my last stop at WaWa (except for the coffee).  Need to find someone who is still selling fuel without the ethanol which is going to become much more difficult with the MTBE not being added now.

It will be a problem we live with, when in Colorado we got great mileage and someone there said they have no ethanol, talk about mileage and horsepower.  ARCO in Washington state mixes 10% I am told and the rest are less.

Proven fact is that the performance and mileage loss is about equivalent to the percentage of ethanol added.  So pay more in the long run for less performance.  I think I'll start running an additive like Techron, just for the security of preventing those build ups.

Here's just one site that is from Chevron with info on additives for personal use.

http://www.chevronlubricants.com/worldwide/northamerica/na_personalvehicles/na_chevron_personalvehicleapps/na_chev_fueladd/default.asp

[BLM777]

I just spent the weekend with some engineers from Weissach, Porsche's design and engineering facility, the same one that co-designed the V Rod.

During the conversations we were having they have now broken the world's gas supply into A,B and C categories.  This is to follow where they have coking and carbon issues as well as underperforming cars.  [highlight]As you may expect, South America, Mexico etc are in the C for dirtiest, poorest quality fuel[/highlight].  

What I found interesting and you may not suspect is that the US is now one third C, a fair amount of B and very little A.  Mostly due to ethanol and locally mandated mixtures of it.  10% ethanol causes the rating, [highlight]Florida was sited as C[/highlight] and I imagine heat contributes to the effects as well since the hotter climates with emissions issues add ethanol.

Great report and most interesting.  Shouldn't surprise anyone that FL ranks with Mexico and South America since it's the Capitol of the third world.  Oh well, need to look at the positive side as the C beats the usual F's in all other catagories...