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[whittlebeast]

NB's are great at 14.7 AFR.  Regarding high back pressure, I tend to have a longish test pipe and then have the wideband close to the collector and or down stream of the turbo.  In the race cars that I tend to mess with, by the rules they must have the exhaust exit behind the passenger compartment.  Most have huge mufflers of some sort.

Andy

[roger28310]

NB's are great at 14.7 AFR.  Regarding high back pressure, I tend to have a longish test pipe and then have the wideband close to the collector and or down stream of the turbo.  In the race cars that I tend to mess with, by the rules they must have the exhaust exit behind the passenger compartment.  Most have huge mufflers of some sort.

Andy

Hi Andy, out of all the posters here you seem to be really switched on and without any brand loyalty. Would like your input if you don't mind. I have been collecting parts for awhile now to build a pretty nice engine and will probably pull the motor this fall, so I have some time to decide on a tuning system.

With the limitations of the narrow bands and the in accuracies of the wide-bands, which type of system would you prefer:

A - Using the oem Delphi unit and a flash tuner of some sort, like Powervision, with the oem narrow band sensors.

or

B - Using and Alpha-N system, like Thundermax, with it's auto-tune module and wide band sensors.

[whittlebeast]

Roger

I may have the most over analyzed street Sporty EFI in the history of Harley.  I owned a real SERT, a TTS, a Power Vision using narrow bands and a PV with Autotune module.  The TTS and PV were married to my bike.  The SERT has never been married.

If I had to do it again, I would definitely go PV with the wideband setup.  Personally, I have not messed with the latest PV upgrades as I ran out of interest in messing with a Harley.  Everything I have heard about it is that it works just fine.  I have learned to never blindly trust any autotune as 100% reliable.  Almost every tuner I use anymore have some sort of autotune capability and I use it every time.  I almost always wind up hand tuning some part of the tune.  Most of the time doing street motors, I do the entire tune on the street.

Always remember four basic things. 

1) Nobody cares more about your motorcycle more that you.
2) The dealer only cares about draining your wallet.
3) More then likely, you simply can not afford to pay someone to do it right.
4) A dyno only gets the motor close enough to get it on the track where the real tuning starts.

Hope this helps and have fun tuning

Andy

[roger28310]

Andy, I think your post answers the OP and my questions quite clearly. PowerVision with the wide bands it is then. Thank you.

[mayor]

The impossible took TTS at least 3 weeks of testing and coding to end up with the post #188 results...but those results reliably repeat on FLH, Dyna, and Sportster.

I believe that you are introducing evidence that isn't in the public forum, either that or I missed some posts some how. 

[Hilly13]

Well Mayor all we can do is wait till they tip the fox out of the bag in the middle of the room 

[whittlebeast]

Well Mayor all we can do is wait till they tip the fox out of the bag in the middle of the room  

... and go face to face with the pink elephant.

Ever notice how many people around say things in a way that people will never be able to use to the statement help them tune their bike?

Andy

[hrdtail78]

Yeah, I notice that.

[FLTRI]

I believe that you are introducing evidence that isn't in the public forum, either that or I missed some posts some how. 

Post #188 is evidence in a public forum... pink elephant and all.
We've had a couple members post voltage vs AFR right here that shows correlation?
Maybe post #188 isn't believable? Just smoke and mirrors?
We'll have to wait and see what come to fruition,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Bob

Did you ever find time to get a long generic 02 data log of one of these bikes?

[mayor]

Post #188 is evidence in a public forum... pink elephant and all.
We've had a couple members post voltage vs AFR right here that shows correlation?
Maybe post #188 isn't believable? Just smoke and mirrors?
We'll have to wait and see what come to fruition

where's the correlating sensor data that goes with the chart? No disrespect intended to anyone, but what was posted is not complete enough information.  I can post a similar chart and make the same statement....but without supporting data, it will be questioned.

[whittlebeast]

Just for the record, when I am doing the WOT stuff on the motor I am tuning right now, I run it from idle to max RPM about 50 times per test session and do the statical analysis of those 50 pulls.  Way fun stuff to test.

You would be amazed at the variation in this stuff.  Any one pull may not be even close to the average of 50 pulls.  Add to that 5-6 different gears.  I never trust one pull to be gospel.

Andy

[mayor]

Here is a dyno result and AFR from tuning using only the Narrow Band factory sensors.

I have some questions regarding this post:

1. what year and model is the bike (what level calibration)?

2. was a sensor value targeted, or was this the result of sampled data and a software calculation to get to a calibration that posted that afr reading?

3. if a sensor voltage value was targeted, what was the target voltage value? how many calibration changes did it take to get the afr to fall with in that targeted value?

4. if the calibration was derived from using a function of the Vtune software, how many vtune calibration attempts did it take to get the afr to fall with in that target?

5. if the calibration was derived from using a function of the Vtune software, was the software using the o2 sensor voltage to dial in the ve’s during the new calibration creation?

6. was the tested calibration that was tested derived from street tuning or dyno tuning?

[Steve Cole]

Bike was a 2011 RG 103. Not sure which calibration Lvl for that exact chart as we have done many but it would have been Lvl 009 or Lvl 044. Base calibration was developed and fully tuned by hand so we knew where the result should end up. Then the finished calibration was CHANGE by taking the VE tables and adding or subtracting 15 % so you end up with the calibration being off by 30% ranges. Then timing and EGR was alter as well. Vtune3 was then used with it on a dyno to capture the data and build new calibrations. Three Vtune runs to get the results you see in the post WITH NO Input from any outside sensors of any type. Once the three Vtune runs were completed the DJ sensor added and dyno runs were made.

Currently running with various camshafts and exhaust to make sure the new product gives the same results across a wide range of changes and so far things are looking very very good.

[roger28310]

I have to interject something here as I have watched this same discussion on at least two different forums, and I can't help but notice that both threads were started by FLTRI and that he asked questions that he seemingly already knew the what he thought to be the answers. Almost as if FLTRI was trying to drum up discussion for the purpose of getting people interested in a new TTS product. Am I the only one that thinks that FLTRI already knew about the new features that Mr. Cole is referring to when he started these threads?