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[hrdtail78]

To be fair. I didn't know you wanted a direct answer. More of a " anybody want to do testing and post data?"  This way you kept out opinion. 

Maybe I'm just drunk on the bug juice.

[mayor]

I thought I confirmed I was down for a yes some time ago.   Based on the data I have seen from lambda cals, I think one could use the mV readings at wide open to dial the ve's into a safe afr range.  I suspect that afr cals will behave similar, but have not tested the idea yet.....yet.

[sam280z]

"What we are looking for is whether a guy could record several WOT runs on a closed course...of course, come back and look at the O2 sensor outputs and determine if the AFR is safe or too rich or lean.

Can this be done? Yes? No?"

In my experience, I'd say the answer is yes and no. You could definitely tell if the mix is rich OR lean, but not if it is TOO rich or lean. You'll get enough info to say (without certainty) whether or not you are likely hurting the motor. But I doubt seriously you could get enough precision to effectively do much about it. It will be like the tuning I used to do on L-jetronic systems - read the leds on my homemade NB gauge and adjust the spring tension and air bypass on the AFM - a lot of hit and miss.  I mean, what AFR are you shooting for in the first place? How will you know when you get there. What is safe for a particular motor? Under which conditions? We haven't even discussed ignition timing.

I think there is a fundamental flaw in thinking that you can tune to a particular indicated AFR on its own and get a desired result from a motor. Even with all of the high-tech tuning aids there are available now, I still rely on det-cans and plug reading.

The good news for DIYers and pro tuners alike is that a motor will still run pretty well on even a "poor" tune. There is always room for improvement and new things to learn.

"If no...data to show it not opinions or other specs or anything but actual testing and measurement."

If I were going to use a system/methodology like this, I'd want to see actual testing and measurement that shows that it actually does work. I wouldn't believe that it does just because no one has shown that it doesn't.

My car is a bit totaled from a rear-end collision right now. I have another that I have to put together. When I do, I'll install a NB along side my WB and do some logging. I can also adjust the fuel flow by a set %age for some static conditions  and compare the associated change in AFRs to measure the error in the AFR readings for both sensors. Might be a few months though. Maybe this thread will still be going  

Sam

[hrdtail78]

We are talking a 45 degree wobble engine.  13.5 TO 12.5.  From what I have seen delivers the same on my dyno.  If I can make a good line at 12.8.  I can up some timing and make a better sheet, but.... I'll take a bit out before getting it back to the customer.  If I was only talking a race track. Sure, let the Delphi take some out.  I assume ona race track.  Everything is monitored, and actions will take place.

We are talking hitting a target that will make good power (safe) that a DIY can do at home.  Not race application.  Like I have posted.  I have used this strategy on my home built 128 w/ 48 mik carb.  Soon after I bought a dyno.  I found I didn't need jet changes, but timing was a whole new world.  Now I saw how fuel can wash detonation.  So to say.  I believe that my 48 mik can never be a straight line.  Either is my Delphi on a TC 09.  Go figure.  The bottom line is.  My "who ever created, cnc ported my heads" are only dealing with what they got.  The combustion chamber, stroke vs. bore, tractor engine isn't as sensitive to AF targeted as some believe.  I can do 10 pulls in 5 minutes.  Every one shows a different HP and TQ line, AF line, spark event, PW......   Any way.  HD riders for the most part ride 1800-4500?  Harley says we spend 20% idling?  (2014 HD slide show) 

Can a DIY map his VE's better with NB than blending?  ( On a Harley Delphi ECM)  Isn't that the question?  Besides, we are not tuning yet.  We are mapping VE's. 

[hrdtail78]

https://app.box.com/s/n6feydhnc00rvioqn1q9

Here is about 120 seconds of data.  CAN bike.

Andy,

That's 2760 frames of data in 124 seconds.

[joe_lyons50023]

"Question" can this be done with narrowband sensors to get a "good" enough wot afr?
"Answer" yes you "could" as long as the O2 sensors are in good condition and this was to be tested further to get repeatable results.
"BUT" I would not recommend this because of the possible errors that could come about. 
But I am just a mere mortal who can't leave well enough alone on my own bike. Lol

How bout this.  Setting closed loop to be able to do 14 afr then set wot area of map at 14 and then run wot a multitude of times and then set the wot area of the map back to whatever u want without resetting the trims?  I may try this too just for giggles.

I found it pretty quick.  Implement this into a software program to figure this stuff out and call it vtune 3, 4 or 5 with timing control.   Let's get Steve to mix diesel stuff with harley.  Direct injection stuff is the latest thing nowadays let's get it going.

[whittlebeast]

Here is one of my customers getting a little sample data on a shakedown run checking out a new tune. 



I vote using NB tuning is only good at catching way too lean on motors that very seldom go to these parts of the power curve and the owner only cares that it runs OK up there.

Lots of your customer base may fall often in this group.

Andy

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I vote YES, as I, too have done this enough to think it is semi reliable.

Looks like I can pull it within about a little over a half of an AFR, which on our engines...  is good enough.

[FLTRI]

Here is one of my customers getting a little sample data on a shakedown run checking out a new tune. 



Andy

What race track or sanctioning body allows drivers to simply hop in a race car in street clothes?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

He was an instructor at a PDX (like an intro to getting on the track)  He jumped into the car to do a little warm up.  He was about 3 sec off his normal lap times just playing it safe.

Andy

[FLTRI]

 

What race track or sanctioning body allows drivers to simply hop in a race car in street clothes?
Bob

Try again to answer the question.

...and what does this have to do with comparing O2 voltage to actual measured AFR?

Bob

[whittlebeast]

Everything to do with expectations of customers.  Mine are rather demanding.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Everything to do with expectations of customers.  Mine are rather demanding.

Andy

Nice answer to a question not asked the doubl-dodge to the question asked...twice! In true Wittle form.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Where in a DIY tune do customers come into it?

[FLTRI]

OK. It seems we have a conscience of opinions that there is a direct and reliable connection of voltage to AFR for NBO2.
Will it be spot on? No, but neither is anything else. Will it be good enough for the intended purpose? Yes.

Since I've been banned from the other site due to asking how tall one of the moderators was I no longer can post over there.
Maybe Mayor and/or Joe or Jason or John can report the findings on the other site?

Thanks,
Bob