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[Twolanerider]

Our 05 with upgraded plate/pump and 575's lasted under 10g before bad lifter last year in Maggie Valley

I've put that plate in four bikes.  Obviously not enough to be considered a data set.  So it's just anecdotal.  One of those four did suffer a failing lifer at 14k.  It was a Feuling HP+ lifter which is a brand I'd always had good luck with.  The other three bikes, however, all have 15k or much less since their work was done.

[HD Street Performance]

"Relative to pressure relief oil being ported to the low pressure feed circuit, this occurs in all year Twin Cam’s. The contention is that this results in excessive aeration, resulting in tappet roller failures.
My pushback is that this phenomenon will be present in all Twin Cam’s. When exploring differences between early and late Twin Cam’s, or late model 96, 103 and 110, nothing substantial changes there, yet the failure rate between the 96 or 103 and the 110 appears significant, and the failure rate between stock and some big engines is quite dramatic. I wouldn’t put this hypothesis at the top of my list of possible solutions because it is one of the few things that remain reasonably constant throughout the different configurations."

It is my belief they all have sucked air by the relief piston from the inception. Mike the clearance. Just remember hot the casting expands nearly twice (~1.7 times) what the piston does. Some are worse than others. Make the path from the tank more restrictive (transmission interface oil feed) and the problem worsens.

Aerate the oil, add more valve spring spring pressure, add valve train weight, add a higher lift rate cam, and add more stress. Something has to go. In this case the item that gets hammered is the lifter. The brand is not as relevant as the contributing factors. One may just last a little longer than another but none of them are curing this issue.

Guys have had all sorts of half baked theories about what may be wrong with the cam plate including the late models not having the OP face oring, machining the case for added orings on the metal to metal fits. I will buy added clearance between the crank and cam plate bushing adds to oil bleed but I would not expect that to lower pressure significantly. Same with the bleed of the tensioner pistons, yes that bleeds oil but not a source of air.
My ideas may be just as half baked but personally if I wasn't too darn busy I would machine the relief piston for an oring and figure a way to return the reroute the bypass oil for a test.

[sadunbar]

I've put that plate in four bikes.  Obviously not enough to be considered a data set.  So it's just anecdotal.  One of those four did suffer a failing lifer at 14k.  It was a Feuling HP+ lifter which is a brand I'd always had good luck with.  The other three bikes, however, all have 15k or much less since their work was done.

Our 05 with upgraded plate/pump and 575's lasted under 10g before bad lifter last year in Maggie Valley

Any lifter failures on any of these bikes prior to the installation of the Cam Plate/Hydraulic Tensioner upgrade?

[Twolanerider]

Any lifter failures on any of these bikes prior to the installation of the Cam Plate/Hydraulic Tensioner upgrade?

No.  The bike that did have a failure was an 04 with about 40k miles when the work was done.  Still had stock lifters, bearings and tensioners at that time.  Then a year later a lifter almost ate the engine.

[CVO2FIXUP]

 Shopping list any one?

[SBB]

Shopping list any one?

The below is on my shopping list.
No problem lifting the front tire!

 

SBB

[dlg]

Nice Bike!!

I have been following this "thread" and adding some information, so now I will fill in what has transpired up to now in my case.  

I own two 2011 SG CVO, his and hers (same color).  On my wife bike at 9800 miles the engine imploded and they could not find why without spending more warranty money so MOCO just replaced the engine.  At about the same time my engine started to make some lifter noise after a hot start, one or more lifters were bleeding down and had to pump up.  I complained a bunch of times and was told the normal, they all sound like that.  I know I had to replace the lifters but against my better judgment I did not.

At 29995 and two weeks before the end of my warranty my engine imploded.  A lifter disintegrated, bearings went everywhere and the engine was rebuilt from the crank up.  In addition to the rebuild the service manage wanted to try an after market part in the engine so it would operate better, I paid for the part and they installed it as part of the rebuild.

From the moment I picked it up it did not sound right.  I took it in three times and had them listen, and was told they all sound like that.  I said I have an identical one at home and they did not all sound like that.

The final time I took it in they said yes something is wrong.  They took it apart and the after market part disintegrated and went everywhere.  The dealer did right and rebuilt it again and I just picked it up and it sounds great and runs great, all HD parts now.

Now to the heart of the story, my wife's bike has 20k miles on the "new" engine, I am so "tuned" to hearing lifters, hers are getting louder, it is not bad but I can now tell the difference from both engines.

Talking to the service manager about just replacing lifters every year and he said it was overkill, and I said so is an engine rebuild.  But it turns out HD makes an SE lifter part number 18573-13, it is 2x the standard lifter price.  So I bought two sets and will take one set with me on the trip to the 110, at the first hint of trouble I will have them replaced.

To top everything, a gentleman came in and needed a belt tightened on his CVO.  He is from Calgary and on a big trip.  He just had a lifter destroy his engine and had it rebuilt.  What a surprise!

So if you own a 110 and did not have a lifter destroy your engine chances are they will.  It is just a matter of time and mileage.

Good luck to all!!
David

[CVO2FIXUP]

 You sound so patient with all this BS!!  Did you at least freak on them a bit, maybe through out a few F-Bombs?  Did they give you a loner bike? Summers are short you know!! I am pissed just reading your story.

  You know what we should all do?  Install the big Yamaha twins in to our bikes and be done with it!!!

[SBB]

Nice Bike!!

I have been following this "thread" and adding some information, so now I will fill in what has transpired up to now in my case.  

I own two 2011 SG CVO, his and hers (same color).  On my wife bike at 9800 miles the engine imploded and they could not find why without spending more warranty money so MOCO just replaced the engine.  At about the same time my engine started to make some lifter noise after a hot start, one or more lifters were bleeding down and had to pump up.  I complained a bunch of times and was told the normal, they all sound like that.  I know I had to replace the lifters but against my better judgment I did not.

At 29995 and two weeks before the end of my warranty my engine imploded.  A lifter disintegrated, bearings went everywhere and the engine was rebuilt from the crank up.  In addition to the rebuild the service manage wanted to try an after market part in the engine so it would operate better, I paid for the part and they installed it as part of the rebuild.

From the moment I picked it up it did not sound right.  I took it in three times and had them listen, and was told they all sound like that.  I said I have an identical one at home and they did not all sound like that.

The final time I took it in they said yes something is wrong.  They took it apart and the after market part disintegrated and went everywhere.  The dealer did right and rebuilt it again and I just picked it up and it sounds great and runs great, all HD parts now.

Now to the heart of the story, my wife's bike has 20k miles on the "new" engine, I am so "tuned" to hearing lifters, hers are getting louder, it is not bad but I can now tell the difference from both engines.

Talking to the service manager about just replacing lifters every year and he said it was overkill, and I said so is an engine rebuild.  But it turns out HD makes an SE lifter part number 18573-13, it is 2x the standard lifter price.  So I bought two sets and will take one set with me on the trip to the 110, at the first hint of trouble I will have them replaced.

To top everything, a gentleman came in and needed a belt tightened on his CVO.  He is from Calgary and on a big trip.  He just had a lifter destroy his engine and had it rebuilt.  What a surprise!

So if you own a 110 and did not have a lifter destroy your engine chances are they will.  It is just a matter of time and mileage.

Good luck to all!!
David

Ok, I will ask.
What is or was that after market part?

[North Georgia Hawg]

Ok, I will ask.
What is or was that after market part?

I was wondering the same thing! I've never heard of a stealer wanting to install an aftermarket part on their own, without insistence from the customer. That would be endangering the warranty, I would think...

Ken

[hogasm]

Any lifter failures on any of these bikes prior to the installation of the Cam Plate/Hydraulic Tensioner upgrade?

.002 run out with 50k

Bike was bone stock with 25k when the chain drive 575's were installed with new B's and new plate....

Now has 570's with 55k off the heads to produce 9.98:1...fueling lifters now in same plate/pump.......8k so far

[dlg]

The failure was do to some type of cam chain tensioner.

All I know they stood by their work and I received a complete rebuild at no cost and received my money back on the item that failed.

As far as being pissed, that would not have been a good idea at the time.  They have your bike and are working with you to decide who is going to pay.  it could have gone in either direction at that point.  When doing diagnostics it is on my dime until they can determine if it is warranty work.  Once they got into the cam chest it was very obvious what the problem was.   I am 4 weeks from my trip to the 110 without a bike and with 25 days of paid hotel rooms.  As far as a loaner bike I have a Vrod so I did not need one, plus I did not want to make it more costly on them.  At this point we had to work as a team and get this resolved.  I was even easy on them as far as when I would get it back.  I just wanted it done right. 

They did a good job and owned up to the problem.  What more could I ask for.  Better then HD owning up to a 110 lifter problem.

In my opinion this is close to a recall item as we can have a failure on the road locking up the engine.  HD should find the solution and recall all of the 110 engines.

I was involved in a Benz recall and we were sucessful in getting the tail light recalled, and it all started on a forum like this one.

Thoughts??

David

[tazmun]

The below is on my shopping list.
No problem lifting the front tire!

 

SBB

Ok Chip, I didn't think you were in to KTM's! Stealer here in town just happens to have the offroad version in stock!

Taz!

[djkak]

Something else to consider is that the argument for or against the routing of pressure relief oil to the low pressure side of the feed gears, or “recirculation” as it’s termed, is still a subjective argument. Some manufactures and/or distributors of automotive dry sump systems using the differing methods in their product, continue to argue that their chosen method is superior to the other.

The most significant issue to consider before choosing to dump pressure relief oil into the Twin Cam camshest is the amount of additional oil that the scavenge pump will be required to displace.

If the feed pump is sized to supply an adequate oil supply at 1,000 rpm, and the engine’s optimal pressure and volume requirement is met at 2,000 rpm, how much oil is being dumped into the camchest by the pressure relief valve at 4, 5, or 6,000 rpm? At 4,000 rpm the pump is spinning x2 the speed that it was to meet the engine’s optimal volume and pressure. 

At this point, I can’t say for sure, but my sense is that we are talking about a lot more than just 15% or 20% of the feed pump’s capacity at 4,000+ rpm. Whatever the actual number is, it’s an easy bet that it’s a lot of oil. When you consider the overhead that this places on the Twin Cam’s scavenge system, do the subjective benefits of this method eclipse the well established downside?

jmho

[Steve Cole]

Not that it really matters but the Twin Cam basically uses a GM small block lifter. How come when you look up the specifications for oil pressure in the GM books the minimum oil pressure is 16 psi? Lower than this they say engine damage may occur. Now look at the HD engine oil pressure when it's run on a hot day and there at 0 - 15 psi at low engine speeds. I believe it's a low oil pressure issue not keeping the lifter feed with enough pressure for proper operation. I have not had any failure with the oil pressure raised but not enough data to say that's it for sure. Those that have issues have you looked at what you oil pressure has been like at low engine speeds?