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[Robmay]

If you're past a required confidentiality period and do feel comfortable speaking more on the topic the highlighted sentence above seems the next question from your remarks.  What were the issues? 

Don,

I think the part about it not changing Rider heat issues was what he was referring to.

[rider57]

If you're past a required confidentiality period and do feel comfortable speaking more on the topic the highlighted sentence above seems the next question from your remarks.  What were the issues?  

The surface area of the radiators is far too small. Heat dissipation is minimal as is the little turbulation for the flow provided.
The aftermarket is already working on kits to relocate and enlarge, greatly, the cooling system. Bet on it.
I have talked with Steve about this for quite a while yesterday. He mentioned what he thought were weak issues with the system. I will leave that for him to state, but I also had concerns and what I thought would be better locations for the radiators ( far away from the rider, engine and wheels / tires) at the rear of the bike.

[Boatman]

I would like to have seen a water cooled oil cooler incorporated into the cooling system also.  Then you may have something.

This is just going to get Harley a few years.  They are just trying to get by with doing the minimal involved.  A long range plan would have been a new bike incorporating their complete new water cooled engine.

They have had to lose their butt on the Vrod platform.  The touring platform is their money maker-deserved better..

[charles05663]

I would have thought that when they redesigned the frame in 2009 they would have made it ready for water cooling since they knew it was coming. 

I guess long range planning is not a Harley strong suite.

 

[North Georgia Hawg]

I would have thought that when they redesigned the frame in 2009 they would have made it ready for water cooling since they knew it was coming. 

I guess long range planning is not a Harley strong suite.

 

MAKING BIGGER PROFITS is Harley's strong suit! Make no mistake about that...

Ken

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

As already mentioned,
I'd bet that the after market will improve/re-design the system to increase many aspects of it.
These engines will eventually be water-jacketed.....only a matter of time.
Scott

[nevadabob]

As already mentioned,
I'd bet that the after market will improve/re-design the system to increase many aspects of it.
These engines will eventually be water-jacketed.....only a matter of time.
Scott

The idea is to cool the head just enough to be able to improve performance and meet the EPA requirements. There is no need for a full water jacket on this style motor or it would just be a V-Rod in a touring bike. You have to look no futher than BMW to find that they just came out with the same style of Twin cooling for the Boxer motor. So far I think they have done a nice job staying to a style form we have a loved over the years and meeting the crush of EPA rules. With Indian going on the road at 111 inches, I can see the MoCo for 15's going to 110 standard and 118 in CVO's and everything going wet.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

The idea is to cool the head just enough to be able to improve performance and meet the EPA requirements. There is no need for a full water jacket on this style motor or it would just be a V-Rod in a touring bike. You have to look no futher than BMW to find that they just came out with the same style of Twin cooling for the Boxer motor. So far I think they have done a nice job staying to a style form we have a loved over the years and meeting the crush of EPA rules. With Indian going on the road at 111 inches, I can see the MoCo for 15's going to 110 standard and 118 in CVO's and everything going wet.

As the requirements become tighter, I'd bet(do not read "want")that will occur.
Scott

[North Georgia Hawg]

The idea is to cool the head just enough to be able to improve performance and meet the EPA requirements. There is no need for a full water jacket on this style motor or it would just be a V-Rod in a touring bike. You have to look no futher than BMW to find that they just came out with the same style of Twin cooling for the Boxer motor. So far I think they have done a nice job staying to a style form we have a loved over the years and meeting the crush of EPA rules. With Indian going on the road at 111 inches, I can see the MoCo for 15's going to 110 standard and 118 in CVO's and everything going wet.

And yet, Indian has just delivered a brand-new, AIR-cooled 111" V-Twin engine in the ThunderStroke, that seems to make more power than Harley's 110. I wonder if it has any capability to become liquid-cooled... or with it's more modern design and likely much tighter engineering, whether it even NEEDS liquid cooling...

I can't see the MoCo EVER being dumb enough to go to the troublesome 110 as the mainline Touring engine. They could never keep up with all of the warranty claims that would result!

I also am quite skeptical that they would ever go to the 120R as the CVO engine on a pure cost basis...

But who knows?

Ken

[Rooster]

Maybe a tamer version of the 120 since they already have it.

[rider57]

The idea is to cool the head just enough to be able to improve performance and meet the EPA requirements. There is no need for a full water jacket on this style motor or it would just be a V-Rod in a touring bike. You have to look no futher than BMW to find that they just came out with the same style of Twin cooling for the Boxer motor. So far I think they have done a nice job staying to a style form we have a loved over the years and meeting the crush of EPA rules. With Indian going on the road at 111 inches, I can see the MoCo for 15's going to 110 standard and 118 in CVO's and everything going wet.

Ask and yee shall receive! Just got an email with drawings. Exactly what I was talking about. This system holds 1.4 gals.
Concept of the drawing looks nice and clean.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I also think water cooled was a necessity for the Twin Cams.  We should all remember our history here...  The original design of the Twin Cam overheated when too much oil was sent to the heads and hit the drain pan, right?  Shock load on the oil pan was too much to overcome.  XLs are vastly different.  "better" design for oiling system for sure.

The whole issue, to me, seems to be the design of the heads, and... the oiling system, too.  Too small of rocker box area-vs- too much heat generated in the combustion chamber.  Oil running past pistons on the way to the tank cannot help much either.  A true redesign of the oiling system, to even GET oil cooling... would in reality be a new engine design.  Twin cam is antiquated design, which I feel new bikes, like the Indian, or the Victory have the upper hand, because their designers have the ability to take the oil to the outside, where we stick with internal oiling... thru the cylinders themselves.

This was an easy fix for MOCO to keep up with the HEAT of EPA cams, etc.  Isn't it really soon we have to get rid of tons of NOX?  Water heads just took a different casting to accomplish.  Oil scheme is still the same.

I think the days of the Twin Cam are becoming numbered.  We will all say "NO!"...  but everyone was surprised when they killed the EVO, so???

I bet this COULD give head porters some fits...  Mercury castings with bad core shift... and now a water jacket to boot!

Can Bus Touring bikes will be a HOOT for some.  There are quite a few folks that have NO clue on body modules, etc. 

Oh... I simply can NOT see a 110 on a stock bike... too many issues over the years.  113 stock with a 116 or 120 CVO seems more likely.  "Stock" 4.060 barrels with base gaskets.  I've always had a sneaking opinion about the true reason MOCO released the 120r anyways...  eg: will the 4.060s hold up?  Will the basic 4 5/8 crank hold up?  How are base gaskets working out in the field?

Oh... "Water Heads" works for me, too.

[Robmay]

Ask and yee shall receive! Just got an email with drawings. Exactly what I was talking about. This system holds 1.4 gals.
Concept of the drawing looks nice and clean.

The cooling system? As in 1.4 gals of coolant? I thought I read somewhere it was just over a quart?

[Twolanerider]

The cooling system? As in 1.4 gals of coolant? I thought I read somewhere it was just over a quart?

Several places.  Including the factory's tech release for 2014.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

For sure on the BCM will create some issue with many shops that are being over run with the EFI to start with a dyno , lap top, etcc are all well even below the "101" school of thought. Cars today have many many computers from ECM, PCM BCM, and think about the guys trying to wire extra stuff into the system. That will be a hoot..

I have tuned and installed cams, &  ported heads on the Victory bikes. Bottom line a extremely solid power plant that HD has not even come close to producing.

First hand experience with them in boosted applications has shown that they are tough as nails.  Maybe with the changes from other manufactures HD will keep moving in the right direction.