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[Schnobel]

Getting ready to upgrade the 110. Added a Fullsac header and 2.25 cores as posted about recently.

Next is to give the motor a little more umph!

Option A

Cam, mild headwork, new lifters, springs and rods. Leave the factory pistons and throttle body.
Cost in the $12-1500 range.
Expected numbers around 110hp with 125tq

Option B

Cam, more headwork, new lifters, springs, rods, 112 pistons, 58mm throttle body with larger injectors.
Cost $3500 range
Expected number around 125hp with 140tq

Custom map of course with both options.

Big total Dyno numbers are not my goal. Peak curve to the left side graff more important. Running a bagger at its limits top end isn't as fun to me as the feeling when I roll on the throttle around town. Let's face it, how often can you run your bike over a 100mph anyway? Durability and reliability important. Running on pump gas only.

For the extra $2k will my "ass dyno" really be able to feel the difference between the two options? Heck, just loosing the cat and adding the exhaust was an improvement.

My current numbers are 93hp and 104tq.

Suggestions as to either options as well as components for either case?

Thanks

[smkymtnboy]

option A based on your comments. low end torque is where the fun is for me.

[Jswerve]

I'm going to give you option C. If I were to do it all over again, I would do air cleaner, pipes, tuner, and then take it to a reputable tuner and have it tuned. Then I would ride it until the wheels feel off.

Either way best of luck with your decision.

[HD Street Performance]

Expected number around 125hp with 140tq

Won't happen without compression to the roof. The torque number.
The HP is easily done.

Here is one I just did in conjunction with a dealer. 110" 10.65:1 SE 259E cams Power Duals Rinehart mufflers
Air filter (CVO Stock) was culling 5hp minimum but the torque line is representative.
All HD parts except the head parts

My choice Option B changed to 113" wth a Mahle 10.5 piston and similar to above with a little different cam in the same duration class. Mild head work with beehive springs added. SE 58mm or HPI TB and your pipe choice

Goal 128hp 130TQ 110TQ by 2500 carrying all the way to 5250 with no less than 110TQ

[Schnobel]

Expected number around 125hp with 140tq

Won't happen without compression to the roof. The torque number.
The HP is easily done.

Here is one I just did in conjunction with a dealer. 110" 10.65:1 SE 259E cams Power Duals Rinehart mufflers
Air filter (CVO Stock) was culling 5hp minimum but the torque line is representative.
All HD parts except the head parts

My choice Option B changed to 113" wth a Mahle 10.5 piston and similar to above with a little different cam in the same duration class. Mild head work with beehive springs added. SE 58mm or HPI TB and your pipe choice

Goal 128hp 130TQ 110TQ by 2500 carrying all the way to 5250 with no less than 110TQ

What cam would you recommend? S&S lifters? Maybe my Tq numbers were a little high. I've seen several guys hit 130tq without the throttle body so figured would do 135+ with one.

[Schnobel]

I'm going to give you option C. If I were to do it all over again, I would do air cleaner, pipes, tuner, and then take it to a reputable tuner and have it tuned. Then I would ride it until the wheels feel off.

Either way best of luck with your decision.

LOL. Probably the smarter choice but who said being smart was as fun! 

[HOGMIKE]

Getting ready to upgrade the 110. Added a Fullsac header and 2.25 cores as posted about recently.

Next is to give the motor a little more umph!

Option A

Cam, mild headwork, new lifters, springs and rods. Leave the factory pistons and throttle body.
Cost in the $12-1500 range.
Expected numbers around 110hp with 125tq

Option B

Cam, more headwork, new lifters, springs, rods, 112 pistons, 58mm throttle body with larger injectors.
Cost $3500 range
Expected number around 125hp with 140tq

Custom map of course with both options.

Big total Dyno numbers are not my goal. Peak curve to the left side graff more important. Running a bagger at its limits top end isn't as fun to me as the feeling when I roll on the throttle around town. Let's face it, how often can you run your bike over a 100mph anyway? Durability and reliability important. Running on pump gas only.

For the extra $2k will my "ass dyno" really be able to feel the difference between the two options? Heck, just loosing the cat and adding the exhaust was an improvement.

My current numbers are 93hp and 104tq.

Suggestions as to either options as well as components for either case?

Thanks

Plan C would be my choice also, since you live in the Cities and only ride 4 months of the year and tear your bike down every winter.

Wait for it...............
 

[HOGMIKE]

Seriously, if you goal is to have a "cruiser" with little more guts, (900lbs is hard to get moving) I'd stick with mild cam (nothing wrong with the 255, or Andrews 54 or a bunch of others) GOOD tune.
You already have good exhaust system and intake.
My 2010 was Fullsac stage 3, I guess and had plenty of snap even pulling a trailer.
My 2014 is almost stock (Fullsac exhaust, SE air cleaner, TTS and runs verrrrry nice)
You may want to ask Fullsac what THEIR customer feedback is on similar combos.
Lots depends on your riding style and expectations. Too many choices limited by common sense and $$
JMHO, of course
 

[Schnobel]

Plan C would be my choice also, since you live in the Cities and only ride 4 months of the year and tear your bike down every winter.

Wait for it...............
 

Hah, 4 months a year is about right! I work half the year in AZ and have thought about shipping her down after the weather gets cold in MN but not sure it's worth the $1500 round trip. Figure I can rent a ride the 3-4 times I want to for less than half that and save the miles on the CVO.

[Schnobel]

Seriously, if you goal is to have a "cruiser" with little more guts, (900lbs is hard to get moving) I'd stick with mild cam (nothing wrong with the 255, or Andrews 54 or a bunch of others) GOOD tune.
You already have good exhaust system and intake.
My 2010 was Fullsac stage 3, I guess and had plenty of snap even pulling a trailer.
My 2014 is almost stock (Fullsac exhaust, SE air cleaner, TTS and runs verrrrry nice)
You may want to ask Fullsac what THEIR customer feedback is on similar combos.
Lots depends on your riding style and expectations. Too many choices limited by common sense and $$
JMHO, of course
 

It's a cruiser true but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be fun to drive. My last bike was a '02 RK Classic. Did the works on it and it was a blast to drive even though it was a bagger. Would cream most crotch rockets light to light and always gave me a big grin. Only issue was it had TOO much compression so needed to add octane booster every tank or she would ping. Had the best dyno guy in the Cities tune it but just couldn't make it go away completely.

Don't want that to happen again but have been told technology in the last 13 years is much better along with mapping technics.

[sadunbar]

I'm going to give you option C. If I were to do it all over again, I would do air cleaner, pipes, tuner, and then take it to a reputable tuner and have it tuned. Then I would ride it until the wheels feel off.

Either way best of luck with your decision.

I'd go with Option C or Option D.  If you don't know what Option D is, contact site member GRC...   He can explain it better than me...  More colorfully, anyway...   

[Schnobel]

I'd go with Option C or Option D.  If you don't know what Option D is, contact site member GRC...   He can explain it better than me...  More colorfully, anyway...   

Option D sounds intriguing? Forced air induction or dropping a 120R in it? 

Not in the budget if that's what it is and the first makes way to much heat.

[Jswerve]

Schnobel curious who you had tune the bike? I thought I took mine to the best in the twin cities (Doug Lofgren)

[BritGuy]

Just been through a similar thought process and working with my independent, I am having the following:

Easy start 585 cams
Push rod kit
S&S oil pump and cam support plate (things of beauty, but sadly out of view)
Flow matched injectors
Bassani B4 pipe
Dyno set up

I have a TTS already.

To answer the question, this looks like your option A. I can always go back for a big bore kit  and most of what I spend now will complement a future change.

[Schnobel]

Schnobel curious who you had tune the bike? I thought I took mine to the best in the twin cities (Doug Lofgren)

And you did have one of the best! Doug is who tuned my bike and isn't just the best in the state but one of the best in North America. He flys all over to train folks. Was just up in Canada teaching a big shop. He is THE professor when it comes to the science of fuel airflow, engine dynamics etc. and not just for HD's. In fact he trained the Ducati factory on EFI mapping. Great guy who will talk your ear off! 

If he did your's you have an excellent map!

[Jswerve]

And you did have one of the best! Doug is who tuned my bike and isn't just the best in the state but one of the best in North America. He flys all over to train folks. Was just up in Canada teaching a big shop. He is THE professor when it comes to the science of fuel airflow, engine dynamics etc. and not just for HD's. In fact he trained the Ducati factory on EFI mapping. Great guy who will talk your ear off! 

If he did your's you have an excellent map!

I sure do. My bike has never run better. He's amazing. I trailered her 240 miles each way to let him work his magic.

[FlaHeatWave]

Getting ready to upgrade the 110. Added a Fullsac header and 2.25 cores as posted about recently.

Next is to give the motor a little more umph!

Option A

Cam, mild headwork, new lifters, springs and rods. Leave the factory pistons and throttle body.
Cost in the $12-1500 range.
Expected numbers around 110hp with 125tq

Option B

Cam, more headwork, new lifters, springs, rods, 112 pistons, 58mm throttle body with larger injectors.
Cost $3500 range
Expected number around 125hp with 140tq

Custom map of course with both options.

Big total Dyno numbers are not my goal. Peak curve to the left side graff more important. Running a bagger at its limits top end isn't as fun to me as the feeling when I roll on the throttle around town. Let's face it, how often can you run your bike over a 100mph anyway? Durability and reliability important. Running on pump gas only.

For the extra $2k will my "ass dyno" really be able to feel the difference between the two options? Heck, just loosing the cat and adding the exhaust was an improvement.

My current numbers are 93hp and 104tq.

Suggestions as to either options as well as components for either case?

Thanks

As others have posted, your HP / TQ #s are a bit optimistic for what works in a touring bike, I'd be a little skeptical of the source.

I'd go with Jswerve's option C with a TTS from Fullsac with their canned map and K&N filter element (you're going to need a Tuner with any other options anyway ) and see if that does it for you...

If you still want more, I'd skip "A" and go right to "B" since you want the curve to the Left, and the 255s give that.  It's much less heartache (and a lot less $$) to go "all in right off the bat" with a proven combination than "upgrading" over time. Yes, your butt dyno will feel a big difference with a well sorted 113!

There are several Reputable Builders on this forum that have the Bagger 113 combinations "dialed in". You might look at some of their Dyno Sheets that are posted here, and consult with them (see less heartache above LOL). 

My 2 cents; S&S Lifters no matter what you decide, if you go to larger TB, SE, if you go adjustable Push Rods, SE. CR 10.5 or less. SE HD Clutch Spring.

I know it's not part of your question, the Baker DD7 will make any bagger much more responsive around town.

JMHO, your results may vary...

Let us know what you decide ?   

[CVO2FIXUP]

 Before dumping coin in to the bike, I would check out the health of your crank.  Mine was 9 though out and started to gouge out my stock oil pump leading straight to a failure. If you crank is OK then proceed to plan b. The gains are terrific. I would expect around 120 120 however.  lets be realistic.     

[Jswerve]

Before dumping coin in to the bike, I would check out the health of your crank.  Mine was 9 though out and started to gouge out my stock oil pump leading straight to a failure. If you crank is OK then proceed to plan b. The gains are terrific. I would expect around 120 120 however.  lets be realistic.     

Good point  When I had cams done my crank run out was .0065

[SDCVO]

Good point  When I had cams done my crank run out was .0065

When my 120r blew up a few weeks ago and they tore it down my crank run out was .006

[Schnobel]

Before dumping coin in to the bike, I would check out the health of your crank.  Mine was 9 though out and started to gouge out my stock oil pump leading straight to a failure. If you crank is OK then proceed to plan b. The gains are terrific. I would expect around 120 120 however.  lets be realistic.     

How hard is it to check how true the crank is before doing plan whatever? I suppose that may make a difference if it's not going to hold up to the extra stresses without me doing the bottom end as well. 

Got 9k on it now.

[sadunbar]

How hard is it to check how true the crank is before doing plan whatever? I suppose that may make a difference if it's not going to hold up to the extra stresses without me doing the bottom end as well. 

Got 9k on it now.

Easy procedure once the cam chest is pulled apart.  I made a simple tool using an old camplate...

[JCZ]

If you're wanting to keep what ever reliability you have (and the warranty or extended warranty), I'd stick with plan A.  You're definately going to tell the difference by the seat of the pants dyno.  Or, if you just have to do it and start doing cams, headwork, etc. well..........it doesn't stop there.  You better bring the bank with you.

[Schnobel]

If you're wanting to keep what ever reliability you have (and the warranty or extended warranty), I'd stick with plan A.  You're definately going to tell the difference by the seat of the pants dyno.  Or, if you just have to do it and start doing cams, headwork, etc. well..........it doesn't stop there.  You better bring the bank with you.

No warranty anymore and opted not to do an extended one. Figured I'd save the up front money and pay out of pocket for whatever ails her down the road if needed.

As far as reliability, if done properly that shouldn't be an issue. In fact it should be better than what MoCo has in there by upgrading the components.

And for the record, Option A would void any such warranty as well.

My indie is upfront as to what it's going to cost and what I may expect in performance for what budget I set. My original post pretty much laid that out.

[HD Street Performance]

You are in the land of greats as far as people to get tuning done.
Razorback, Bob Thoma, is in Whitehall, WI. An excellent tuner builder.

[Schnobel]

On the same subject,

If one decided to do Option B, why wouldn't I opt to bore the heads and upgrade to a 124 verses 113 or 117? It's the same head work and imagine similar parts costs? No replacement for displacement right?

If you were going to add in domed pistons etc, why not put in bigger ones?

[HD Street Performance]

You are right on.
The fixed costs are the same as long as the cases are being bored and the crank prepared.
At the end of the day a lower compression low lift cam 124 is a lot more happy motor than a high compression 113 or 117". Very fun to ride and long lasting. I do these often because of exactly what you mentioned. Being in close proximity to S&S these builds happen out of their speed center very easily and painlessly. Most of the time they cost about $5.5K plus tuner pipes clutch and labor to install. Really you are knocking on the door of a 124LC crate motor cost though and then you have your motor as a spare at resale time plus the 124LC comes with a 2 year warranty.

[VANAMAL]

harley will use any excuse to void your warranty. After you do this they won't honor it. Air filter,pipes and a good tune. after the warranty ends then go for it

[Mr. Warlock]

On the same subject,

If one decided to do Option B, why wouldn't I opt to bore the heads and upgrade to a 124 verses 113 or 117? It's the same head work and imagine similar parts costs? No replacement for displacement right?

If you were going to add in domed pistons etc, why not put in bigger ones?

You can't get to 124 without changing the crank to a longer stroke and machining the cases.

[cmashark]

I built a 113 and works very well.   I like the 113.  Very smooth running. Mild compression at around 10.5.  Most of my parts came from GMR (I already had a set of cams) and my tune was done a Wide Open Cycles.  I didn't even consider the stock crank as being worth my build, so Steve at GMR had an S&S crank sent to me.  I guess I went with option F.

One last question.  What is this warranty thing everyone is talking about?   

Chris

[Schnobel]

I built a 113 and works very well.   I like the 113.  Very smooth running. Mild compression at around 10.5.  Most of my parts came from GMR (I already had a set of cams) and my tune was done a Wide Open Cycles.  I didn't even consider the stock crank as being worth my build, so Steve at GMR had an S&S crank sent to me.  I guess I went with option F.

One last question.  What is this warranty thing everyone is talking about?   

Chris

If I purchased a complete 124 from S&S it comes with a 2 year warranty verses modifying my own which has none or whatever my indie gives. Also there was reference to if I still had either a factory warranty or the extended service plan it would be void if I modified my motor.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Fellow member, Lever, had his 113"/Wood 8 combo tuned at Valley Racing in Beecher, ILL.
Runs right up at/near 130 hp even with a 30T trans pulley.
BTW, we've had clients engines tuned by Doug.........always has seemed to make the folks very happy.
Scott

[Ridgerunr]

"He is THE professor when it comes to the science of fuel airflow, engine dynamics etc. and not just for HD's. In fact he trained the Ducati factory on EFI mapping."

I agree, Doug forgot more than most know. Some of the blow hards on several other forums who are big on theory and small on actual field results give him a rough time. Being the true professional he is, he doesn't get into the sniping.

[Jswerve]

"He is THE professor when it comes to the science of fuel airflow, engine dynamics etc. and not just for HD's. In fact he trained the Ducati factory on EFI mapping."

I agree, Doug forgot more than most know. Some of the blow hards on several other forums who are big on theory and small on actual field results give him a rough time. Being the true professional he is, he doesn't get into the sniping.

Doug is just a super guy with exceptional talent.

Jesse

[Beak Boater]

Having just went through this, I had the luxury of having 2 bikes with 110's in them. A 2010 Ultra and a 2010 Street Glide. Decided to build the SG for a little more Hp. Wanted to stay at 110 ci, having the TMan CVO Thumper kit installed. Heads, 10.5 pistons, TMan did the cylinders, 660SM cams. HPI Throttle body 58 mm, 5.3 injectors and SandS lifters. Full Sac DX pipe and Rinehart slipons. All was progressing fine until we found out the crank had issues. Out that came and Dark Horse did his magic on it. It was assembled and tuned by Doc's Performance in Fl with TTS Mastertune. Bike runs great. Its low end manors around town are acceptable, and it pulls very hard up to 6500 rpm. Made 122 HP and 120 tq.
A few observations that I didn't think about. Valve train noise, 110's are already pretty noisey, some cams add a whole different level of noise to that. So can live with it, some cant. It can be pretty noisy when it gets heated up down in SW FL. Checked all possibilities, its just the nature of the animal with high lift cams.
Heat, not sure if its the 2-1-2 exhaust or the increased compression or both, but a lot more motor heat. Doc is one of the best tuners in the south east, so I am sure its not the tune. Just a lot more heat than the motor with 259E's and 2-2 Vance and Hines Dresser duals. Have the same slipons.
If I was going to put a motor together for a bagger, I would do a milder cam, and bigger cubic inches. You could get the same hp and tq with a mild built 124, or a slightly built 117. You got to cut the cases anyway for both. In my case anyway, might eliminate a little heat, and some valve train noise.
I always have the luxury of getting on the Ultra that is closer to stock and get away from the issues of the higher hp bike. So I don't have to ride the SG everyday that I ride. Like both bikes just my observations.

[CVO2FIXUP]

 After my engine build ( crank done now at less than one though,  113,,  10.5 comp  s&s 585 cams, ported heads ) bike seems to chew up compensator's like crazy.  I went through 2 last season. Thing bangs lie made under load.  So I was wondering if any of you guys experienced a more rapid comp wear after the builds.   

[FlaHeatWave]

If I purchased a complete 124 from S&S it comes with a 2 year warranty verses modifying my own which has none or whatever my indie gives. Also there was reference to if I still had either a factory warranty or the extended service plan it would be void if I modified my motor.

From my experience ESP is refusing any claims on (internal) motor mods, HD components too.

In my previous post, I was going to suggest a 124 Crate as a plan D or E, but it didn't sound like you would be interested, I see that you've started sliding down "that slippery slope" that has bitten us at one time or another LOL. 

I've posted this many times; "If I'd known that S&S was coming out with a Granite (colored) Crate 124, before we reached the point of no return with the 117, I'd definitely gone 124 Crate!"

Don't get me wrong, the 117 is awesome in every way (16+k so far) we used S&S Crank  .0005 , Lifters & Roller Rockers, but I wouldn't mind having a nationwide warranty and only 1 # to call if any problems arise, no finger pointing... I had a lot of help (cost wise $$$) when having the 117 Built, guys getting the components at cost and doing the labor themselves could not duplicate it for the same $$$.
That being said, I still recommend the S&S 124 Crate! Not for more power. If you have to work the bottom end (crank, Timken, etc...) The 124 LC Crate can be had for about the same $$ as a proper 113 / 117 / 124 Build. Some Builders offer a warranty on their Builds, but S&S has shops in many more places, a consideration if you do much traveling.

CVO2FIXUP asked about the Compensator;
'Have the '13 Comp (the one before the latest version) in the 117, (16+k) no noise, no issues at all so far    

[SDCVO]

BTW, the S&S 124 has a 1 year warranty not 2. Just bought mine a couple of weeks ago and am currently waiting on it. Not complaining as I'm happy to have the 1 year, just saying.

[Jswerve]

If my engine goes kablooey that granite S&S 124 will be calling my name 

[Schnobel]

After much contemplation and reading all of the excellent advice, I am going to go Plan A. Do some mild head work, cam and change out the lifters/springs for added durability. If I can get my numbers around what HD Street Performance Dyno sheet has, I will be very happy. I decided that this is a cruiser and not going to try to make it something it isn't. Just want it to be a little more fun to drive and get its big 900lbs ass moving!

Thanks for all of the advice and replies! 

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Shouldn't be a back-breaking task to get there.
Scott