www.CVOHARLEY.com
CVO Social => In The News => Topic started by: serghaven on April 30, 2010, 01:12:04 PM
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MILWAUKEE - Motorcycle maker Harley-Davidson Inc. warned its employees Thursday it could move its Wisconsin manufacturing operations to another U.S. state if it can't cut millions of dollars in costs.
A recent analysis found a number of significant "cost gaps" that must be filled for the company to remain competitive, Harley spokesman Bob Klein said. The largest gaps involved labor costs and scheduling flexibility, Klein said.
"We'll be talking with the unions about how to close those competitive gaps," he said.
One of Harley's largest unions, the Local 2-209 chapter of the United Steelworkers International Union, did not immediately return messages seeking comment.
The Wisconsin plants at risk include its powertrain operations in Milwaukee. Those operations, with about 1,320 employees, are already being consolidated, and company officials have said the move would result in an unspecified number of job cuts.
The other Wisconsin plant, in Tomahawk, makes components including motorcycle windshields. It has about 375 workers, Klein said.
Even while holding discussions with union leaders, the company plans to look at sites in other states, Klein said. He declined to say which states, or how many sites, were under consideration.
The announcement was first reported by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett pledged in a statement to do everything he could "to ensure Harley-Davidson remains a proud Wisconsin company for generations to come."
The Milwaukee-based company has been struggling with sluggish sales, particularly of its high-end bikes. It reported last week that its first-quarter profit plunged 72 percent from the same period last year, while revenue dropped 19 percent. Retail sales of its heavyweight motorcycles fell more than 18 percent worldwide, the company said, with sales in the U.S. falling by nearly a quarter.
In December, Harley and its union agreed to a seven-year contract at its main motorcycle assembly plant in York, Pa. Under that contract, Harley would shut down one of two factories there and lay off nearly half the unionized work force of about 1,950 employees.
Harley-Davidson has many factors working against it in the U.S., including an aging customer base and growing competition from rivals. The company has long said it is focusing more attention and investment in markets overseas, where it has more room for growth.
Harley shares rose 83 cents, or 2.4 percent, to close at $35 on Thursday. Shares have traded in a 52-week range of $14.99 to $36.13.
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By DINESH RAMDE , Associated Press
Last update: April 29, 2010 - 4:22 PM
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Well we know they will not be moving to Calif.
Although Nevada could be a possability........low labor costs, low econmic costs and no state income tax.
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Don't know if they'd do it, but they have a favorable union contract in place in York, pleanty of space with the consolodation and no shipping costs for softails and touring models if they buil the engines there. They could also handle the Tomahawk plastics. K.C. has plenty of space to add a big twin/sportster powertrain line. I would not be surprised to see something happen as there's been comments for years on them shipping the engines and plastics all over the country.
Ride Safe,
JC
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I think its just more scare tactics to lower the workers wages without cutting management wages.
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OK, all CVO Harley members do your part and run right out and buy another CVO. Dood its been awhile for you, and you too Spyder, I see you hiding in the back there. If it's a 2008 or older, its time. :D
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OK, all CVO Harley members do your part and run right out and buy another CVO. Dood its been awhile for you, and you too Spyder, I see you hiding in the back there. If it's a 2008 or older, its time. :D
Not!!!!! I didn't get a stimulus check I work for a living. :oops: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Not!!!!! I didn't get a stimulus check I work for a living. :oops: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Stimulus this...... Get off that long term nursing policy and get living. :huepfenlol2:
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Stimulus this...... Get off that long term nursing policy and get living. :huepfenlol2:
:ROFLOL: :2vrolijk_21:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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:ROFLOL: :2vrolijk_21:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Chip said he wants to buy your SEEG, he dont want mine.
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Chip said he wants to buy your SEEG, he dont want mine.
He's old enough for his wants not to hurt him. :D :D
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Aint that the truth. ;D
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Don't know if they'd do it, but they have a favorable union contract in place in York, plenty of space with the consolidation and no shipping costs for softails and touring models if they built the engines there. They could also handle the Tomahawk plastics. K.C. has plenty of space to add a big twin/sportster powertrain line. I would not be surprised to see something happen as there's been comments for years on them shipping the engines and plastics all over the country.
Ride Safe,
JC
But Wisconsin has the museum....they definitely have the museum! Who needs manufacturing jobs when you have the museum! ::)
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OK, all CVO Harley members do your part and run right out and buy another CVO. Dood its been awhile for you, and you too Spyder, I see you hiding in the back there. If it's a 2008 or older, its time. :D
Well, if that's what it will take for them to survive, I suggest they may as well fold up the tent right now. I may be getting old, but I'm not dumb and I'm not senile (yet). They'll see another pile of cash from me when and if they decide to build a top quality product at a reasonable price, and then treat me like a highly valued person instead of something to be scraped off their boots. Since I no longer believe in miracles or fairy tales, please excuse me if I don't hold my breath waiting for current management to do the right thing.
Jerry
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I'm proud to say I'm doing my part to keep MOCO afloat! New SEUC in Dec and haven't stopped spending yet...now I'm working to keep the component facilities open with my accessory purchases...
But, I have to agree: MOCO isn't very good at showing it's appreciation to their loyal customers. My experience with dealers in my area hasn't been much better than it would have been if I'd have rolled in their store on a metric bike...once you roll out on your new scooter, you're on your own unless they can find a way to charge you when you come back in.
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Wonder what the stock price would be if there was a 50% salary cut at the top going down to a 10% salary cut for the line workers? Would the price of the CVO go down? Sorry, I was dreaming......
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I'm proud to say I'm doing my part to keep MOCO afloat! New SEUC in Dec and haven't stopped spending yet...now I'm working to keep the component facilities open with my accessory purchases...
But, I have to agree: MOCO isn't very good at showing it's appreciation to their loyal customers. My experience with dealers in my area hasn't been much better than it would have been if I'd have rolled in their store on a metric bike...once you roll out on your new scooter, you're on your own unless they can find a way to charge you when you come back in.
\
Well, even though it seems we should get more out of the dealer and the MoCo, the experience has been much better than what I received after spending $75k with MasterCraft Boats and the dealer I've known personally for several years---zilch, no contact, no help in making it easier to get boat serviced or winterized with any kind of convenience at all. At least my Harley dealer will come pick up my bike if I need them to.
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I've been watching this post since it started and at the risk of making some of you angry, I feel that I just have to post a comment.
When I first read the article, I just had to laugh. The first thing that popped into my head was that this was just a typical bull_ _ _ _ way of getting the slaves...er, I mean "workers", via their respective unions, to agree to wage concessions. "Costs" are too high so the first thing that we look at is worker's wages. I'm sure that Harley's financial troubles don't have a single thing to do with overpriced products or way too many models to choose from, very few of them actually fitting the riders that buy them. Where else can you spend $20,000 or more on a product and then have to spend another $1000 or more making it "fit" you? Where else can you produce products with your name all over it and get the people to actually pay you to advertise for you? In my mind, I can see right through this crap. If Harley couldn't see this recession (that's what the government calls it, it's actually a depression...just ask anyone who has lost their homes, jobs and everything else they worked their whole lives for) coming, then who's really to blame for their financial woes? Did they fall asleep and not realize that boom times can't and won't last forever?
I had to laugh because Harley's statement that they may have to relocate reminded me of tactics our government uses all the time. When they've wasted all the money, the first thing they cut is education and senior services, because those are things that people will be the most upset about. They never talk about cutting the waste (although maybe there really is none, right?). Harley is using the same ploy. Gee, NO ONE wants to see Harley move out of Milwaukee...it's a tradition. So maybe they can get the workers to give a little more blood and maybe they can get the taxpayers to dig a little deeper because, after all, it's really not Harley's fault is it? I wonder if any of their executives are losing their homes or shopping at Aldi's?
The truth of the matter is that if you make a good product and sell it at a fair price, people will buy it. Your profits may suffer a little in bad times, but you will have a loyal customer base to sustain you...and you should be prepared for those times because they don’t happen overnight and if you want to stay in business you have to keep an eye on stuff like that. Harley should know this better than anyone. They've been through this more than once. Maybe by changing their bikes EVERY YEAR trying to attract the yuppies and such they've alienated their core customers, or maybe they just got greedy and prices themselves out of reach of too many customers. Anyway, in closing, my opinion is let 'em leave...if that's what they really want.
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I've been watching this post since it started and at the risk of making some of you angry, I feel that I just have to post a comment.
When I first read the article, I just had to laugh. The first thing that popped into my head was that this was just a typical bull_ _ _ _ way of getting the slaves...er, I mean "workers", via their respective unions, to agree to wage concessions. "Costs" are too high so the first thing that we look at is worker's wages. I'm sure that Harley's financial troubles don't have a single thing to do with overpriced products or way too many models to choose from, very few of them actually fitting the riders that buy them. Where else can you spend $20,000 or more on a product and then have to spend another $1000 or more making it "fit" you? Where else can you produce products with your name all over it and get the people to actually pay you to advertise for you? In my mind, I can see right through this crap. If Harley couldn't see this recession (that's what the government calls it, it's actually a depression...just ask anyone who has lost their homes, jobs and everything else they worked their whole lives for) coming, then who's really to blame for their financial woes? Did they fall asleep and not realize that boom times can't and won't last forever?
I had to laugh because Harley's statement that they may have to relocate reminded me of tactics our government uses all the time. When they've wasted all the money, the first thing they cut is education and senior services, because those are things that people will be the most upset about. They never talk about cutting the waste (although maybe there really is none, right?). Harley is using the same ploy. Gee, NO ONE wants to see Harley move out of Milwaukee...it's a tradition. So maybe they can get the workers to give a little more blood and maybe they can get the taxpayers to dig a little deeper because, after all, it's really not Harley's fault is it? I wonder if any of their executives are losing their homes or shopping at Aldi's?
The truth of the matter is that if you make a good product and sell it at a fair price, people will buy it. Your profits may suffer a little in bad times, but you will have a loyal customer base to sustain you...and you should be prepared for those times because they don’t happen overnight and if you want to stay in business you have to keep an eye on stuff like that. Harley should know this better than anyone. They've been through this more than once. Maybe by changing their bikes EVERY YEAR trying to attract the yuppies and such they've alienated their core customers, or maybe they just got greedy and prices themselves out of reach of too many customers. Anyway, in closing, my opinion is let 'em leave...if that's what they really want.
:2vrolijk_21:
One part of the entire thing that I don't see mentioned by the MoCo mismanagement team is just who is responsible in a modern corporation for making certain the company is properly positioned and financed, to not only weather an inevitable economic downturn, but to do the forward planning on products and facilities necessary to remain viable. I may not be a CEO type, or a Harvard educated economist, but I do believe I can answer that question. It is NOT the hourly workforce or the low level salaried grunts who have that responsibility, it's the greedy jerks in the executive suites and the boardroom. And yet 99.9% of the sacrifice is always forced on those who have absolutely no control over those issues. The folks who just took all that money over the years but didn't do their jobs continue to get the big pay packages or big retirement packages, and at worst might lose some incentive payments based on current financials. I seriously doubt any of those folks will be shopping at Aldi's or WalMart in either the near or distant future, or be living in an old car or a tent in a park. In the meantime, those who just did the real work of the corporation are given no-win choices like give up the pay and benefit improvements they've busted their butt for over the years, accept work rule changes that increase their workload and throw out any gains made to improve quality of life, or see their job shipped to Mexico, India, China, or maybe down to some southern farm community where at least initially the people will be willing to work for less pay, less benefits, and with no union representation (otherwise known as the Japan Inc. method). Those things might keep the stockholders happy for awhile, at least long enough for the current mismanagers to sock away their fortunes before the final crash, but they won't fix the real causes of the problem. I don't care if you have free slave labor in your factories, if you don't make a quality product that large numbers of people want, at a price they can afford, your cheap labor won't have any work to perform either.
Jerry
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Very well said...
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INEVITABLE ECONOMIC DOWNTURN
Key words...especially in a unnecessary product like motorcycles - bikes are not one of the items under the big three: food, clothing, and shelter. So they, like fancy golf clubs, fishing boats, and other "luxury" items will suffer more when the belt gets tightened. What HD is doing is what ANY business has to do - so if you work there, expect it. Life isn't fair and ya gotta take what you get, overcome adversity, and survive. Belly-aching and finger-pointing is wasted effort.
My opinion.
T-man
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Go ahead and leave, it will be the last Harley I will have to buy. A Beemer in the garage? 8)
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Go ahead and leave, it will be the last Harley I will have to buy. A Beemer in the garage? 8)
I'm holding out for a Ducati bagger!! :P :2vrolijk_21:
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Go ahead and leave, it will be the last Harley I will have to buy. A Beemer in the garage? 8)
A nice Concept Six Touring model... :bananarock:
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Hate to see this happen, but the way it looks, this warning is not good. Other companies that have sent warnings like this have ended up getting concessions, tax breaks, etc. and ended up leaving anyway. I hope the company can find a position of stability and live on for many years. Enjoy the ride!
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I friend just pointed me to this article about H-D considering moving the Milwaukee plant.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/top-stocks/blog.aspx?post=1789378&_blg=1,1789378
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Just read this http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100804/ap_on_bi_ge/us_harley_milwaukee_breakup
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The end of an era .. damn shame
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If not off-shore, or Mexico, maybe down Kentucky, Missippi, or Carolinas and no doubt they'll be looking to get away from union labor force. Sad situation.
:(
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:cherry:
Getting away from union country is (exactly) what they need to do......although it may be too late given current economic activity and the Yomama administration and their planned end to tax cuts, etc.
Look at Detroit, it's trashed now and union demands and unsustainable perks took GM and Chrysler right down the drain.......Milwaukee will survive if HD leaves, but they should know where to point the finger for why it happened. :drink:
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Multimillion dollar pay and perks up the wazoo for the executives are perfectly acceptable, but decent pay and benefits for the working stiff is somehow causing the downfall of America? I don't think so. The middle class worker created the economy that was the envy of the world, and the privileged few are destroying it quite rapidly thanks to the "greed is good" philosophy and the morons in Washington who let it happen.
H-D management is looking out strictly for H-D management. Just like at York, if they can intimidate the folks in Milwaukee into giving up everything they've worked for over the past 30 years then management can just pat themselves on the back as they increase their own pay and benefits. And don't forget, their ultimatums at York and now in Milwaukee also included targeting the local politicians, as in give us all kinds of abatements and other goodies or we'll leave your economy high and dry. So not only are the union workers getting the shaft, the local taxpayers who have to make up the difference will also get to grab their ankles. Harley has a history of expecting others to fix their self induced problems. Look at the 1980's for instance. Can't build a competitive product, so talk the government into slapping import duties on the much better bikes from overseas. Didn't help the quality of the bikes, but it cost those of us who bought bikes from other companies that actually had a clue a lot of extra money.
As far as I'm concerned they can take their greedy no quality butts over to China. And not just manufacturing but the whole corporation. That way they could save on the shipping costs for all the cheap Chinese parts, and they would have a huge domestic market that is used to getting junk for products. Should be a perfect match.
Jerry
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Multimillion dollar pay and perks up the wazoo for the executives are perfectly acceptable, but decent pay and benefits for the working stiff is somehow causing the downfall of America? ...
Jerry, you can't tell me that one, two, or 100 executives getting "Multimillion dollar pay and perks up the wazoo" can compare to what the unions get in perks & privileges. I know of one member here who gets a new GM truck every year at a fraction of what it costs to build it (not the sales price). Work for 20 years and retire with 80% of your pay plus medical benefits for the rest of your life? How can any company afford to pay that extortion? Simple, add it to the cost of the product and cut corners somewhere else to still make a profit. That why companies are in business: to make a profit. Not to make people feel good and put them to work but to make a profit. Toyota has moved to a non-union state for that very reason. There are not enough younger workers entering the workforce to help pay for the pensions and healthcare of those retiring. It's that simple.
AJ
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Here's my $.02 - w/o taking either side, just a few comments: I depend on the manufacturing community for my welfare, so any development concerning manufacturing - new business, closing, or moving - I am interested. Here in Louisville Ford and UPS are the big union employers. GE pulled out many years ago and moved partly to Indiana, and mostly to Mexico. As with any negotiation, there's gotta be some compromise. However, our economic conditions today are not what they were in 1990, nor 1970, nor anytime in the past. Also, since the industrial revolution after WWII, we are now manufacturing less (as a nation) than anytime in the past 50 years, and much of what is lost, will not return. So when I hear companies closing and or moving due to union issues, I gotta ask "Why?" Both sides lose if the talks fail. Yes, I think the general premise or rationale of an employee union is antiquated, but workers have to be treated, and compensated, well. Yes, I agree management has to run lean and mean without exorbitant bonuses and/or outrageous salaries, and they must make a reasonable profit. We as a nation, as a business, and each individual need to adopt a "long term" vision. Otherwise, we better learn Chinese....
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Lazy union workers. I watched as they destroyed Eastern Airlines. Yes there are great union workers but they end up carrying all the crap workers who think the company owes them everything.
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Lazy union workers. I watched as they destroyed Eastern Airlines. Yes there are great union workers but they end up carrying all the crap workers who think the company owes them everything.
It's not just a union plague!
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I agree. I let two people go this year because they blame all their problems on someone else. Get of your lazy a$# and do something.
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It's not just a union plague!
It sure isn't!! There's a "perfect storm" that's been hovering for many years. Union leadership, Greedy corporate officers and share holders, customer base with dwindling incomes demanding cheaper products, and many others I'm sure. But as long as folks dig their heels in and blame one side or the other, as we have for decades now, rather than formulating a creative solution together the jobs will either pay less and/or move to Asia. Either way the fatcats will have to slim down because the folks discretionary $$$ will be hard to acquire. Just my .02 (and too much :morningcoffee:)
Howie
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My point, it doesn't matter who wins.......People just can't afford $20k plus toys
in this day & age. Some of us are fortunate, most are not. Look at Government Motors,
they want to buy a credit company for $3.5 billion so they can sell cars to people who
can't afford them. Does that make ANY sense at all? I think the MoCo, has to drop prices
big time to get people to buy, but until America gets back on it's feet, "Free" won't help.
Just my 2 cents.
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If HD chooses to move it's Milwaukee plant operations to improve their bottom line, that is just a basic business decision. There are many factors that affect the bottom line & believe it or not, without a healthy bottom line, HD becomes just another ex-manufacturing company. Nothing wrong with a profit motive or the capitalist system in my opinion. Doubt they will move off shore, since they have the "American made" deal down now as the last one standing of any real size.
As to why the MoCo chooses to move or not move, you can point fingers at whatever you wish but for YEARS companies have moved across state lines and have managed to survive very well. It's the companies that moved over seas that have caused the great decline in American manufacturing. To say that is ALL the unions fault is an over simplification but no doubt for many companies it was a major, if not the deciding factor. Labor costs drive the sales price up or down & are a VARIABLE expense. Minimizing expenses (to the extent it does not adversely affect quality) is the name of the game in keeping companies healthy. Frankly, HD may be looking at a move to also improve overall quality of their product, which is certainly needed.
Companies that are publicly held, as HD is, answer to stockholders as well, so they MUST pay attention to their bottom line or their investors will seek out other companies that do. Heard on the radio this week that Louisiana & Alabama are going to try for this factory & certain other states will as well.
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:nervous:
Check this out and then get back to me about......exec pay
http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2008/11/let_gm_ford_and_chrysler_die.html
Detroit News, 17 Oct 2005, Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work
Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.
:drink:
Yup, That's what I want to pay for..........Union employees without work getting $31 an hour to play crossword puzzles.
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Jerry, you can't tell me that one, two, or 100 executives getting "Multimillion dollar pay and perks up the wazoo" can compare to what the unions get in perks & privileges. I know of one member here who gets a new GM truck every year at a fraction of what it costs to build it (not the sales price). Work for 20 years and retire with 80% of your pay plus medical benefits for the rest of your life? How can any company afford to pay that extortion? Simple, add it to the cost of the product and cut corners somewhere else to still make a profit. That why companies are in business: to make a profit. Not to make people feel good and put them to work but to make a profit. Toyota has moved to a non-union state for that very reason. There are not enough younger workers entering the workforce to help pay for the pensions and healthcare of those retiring. It's that simple.
AJ
Don't forget that the workers pay most of the money that goes into their retirement. The company then decide where to invest that money. The different retirement options that were closed and are fully funded and have an excess of money are what H-D. The excesses of that money are to go to the employee's are kept in the fund and grow to the point that the company's want to get their hands on. That is most probably one of the sticking points of the negotiations. We out here are having the same problems. The newer retirement funds that we pay for in the current are designed so that the company's have they can get the excess. The problem is that the funds were hit so hard that they are in debit because the investment's made and they have to make up the diffrence. The Xe's however are not asked to give back part of the sweet deals that they "negotiated". So why should the workers give back there's in the form of lower wages and benefits. :soapbox:
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Multimillion dollar pay and perks up the wazoo for the executives are perfectly acceptable, but decent pay and benefits for the working stiff is somehow causing the downfall of America? I don't think so. The middle class worker created the economy that was the envy of the world, and the privileged few are destroying it quite rapidly thanks to the "greed is good" philosophy and the morons in Washington who let it happen.
H-D management is looking out strictly for H-D management. Just like at York, if they can intimidate the folks in Milwaukee into giving up everything they've worked for over the past 30 years then management can just pat themselves on the back as they increase their own pay and benefits. And don't forget, their ultimatums at York and now in Milwaukee also included targeting the local politicians, as in give us all kinds of abatements and other goodies or we'll leave your economy high and dry. So not only are the union workers getting the shaft, the local taxpayers who have to make up the difference will also get to grab their ankles. Harley has a history of expecting others to fix their self induced problems. Look at the 1980's for instance. Can't build a competitive product, so talk the government into slapping import duties on the much better bikes from overseas. Didn't help the quality of the bikes, but it cost those of us who bought bikes from other companies that actually had a clue a lot of extra money.
As far as I'm concerned they can take their greedy no quality butts over to China. And not just manufacturing but the whole corporation. That way they could save on the shipping costs for all the cheap Chinese parts, and they would have a huge domestic market that is used to getting junk for products. Should be a perfect match.
Jerry
This does not necessarily mean they are leaving the USA. Thanks to the tax laws in Wisconsin such as something called Combined Reporting and other factores HD has no choice but to follow the lead of others like Polaris (Osceola plant) who can not handle anymore WI taxes. Estimates had it the new taxes imposed would cost Harley 27 mill per year. YUP its a dam shame
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Why dredge up an old outdated story(2005)? Why not mention that the Jobs Bank was eliminated in collective bargaining back in late 2008 by the UAW in response to industry problems?
The Jobs Bank was a ridiculous response to the Japanese industry's so-called lifetime employment. Like many benefits, it was agreed to back when times were good and the companies didn't want to argue too much at contract time. I don't blame the Union for asking for it, I blame the Management who agreed to it. Never forget, the Union doesn't run the company and it can't set up these programs on it's own.
There is no argument that there has been massive waste created by programs like this particular one over the years. But there should also be no argument that the current union leadership has been working diligently to help reduce costs and eliminate counterproductive perks and programs to help keep companies viable and to protect the remaining jobs that haven't already fled overseas or to nonunion farming areas in the south.
I guess it shouldn't surprise anyone that many people on a site dedicated to highly overpriced toys would tend to be less worried about the hourly workforce than the privileged folks a little higher up the food chain. Please excuse me if I don't join you in laying all of Harley's problems off on the little guys.
Jerry
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:cherry:
Why "dredge up" an old situation with the unions........how about current stuff.......keep up the (denials), I can keep quoting FACTS that throw your arguments into the dirt.
To do that California needs to take on its public employee unions.
Approximately 85% of the state's 235,000 employees (not including higher education employees) are unionized. As the governor noted during his $83 billion budget roll-out, over the past decade pension costs for public employees increased 2,000%. State revenues increased only 24% over the same period. A Schwarzenegger adviser wrote in the San Jose Mercury News in the past few days that, "This year alone, $3 billion was diverted to pension costs from other programs." There are now more than 15,000 government retirees statewide who receive pensions that exceed $100,000 a year, according to the California Foundation for Fiscal Responsibility.
Many of these retirees are former police officers, firefighters, and prison guards who can retire at age 50 with a pension that equals 90% of their final year's pay. The pensions for these (and all other retirees) increase each year with inflation and are guaranteed by taxpayers forever—regardless of what happens in the economy or whether the state's pensions funds have been fully funded (which they haven't been).
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Don't forget that the workers pay most of the money that goes into their retirement. The company then decide where to invest that money. The different retirement options that were closed and are fully funded and have an excess of money are what H-D. The excesses of that money are to go to the employee's are kept in the fund and grow to the point that the company's want to get their hands on. That is most probably one of the sticking points of the negotiations. We out here are having the same problems. The newer retirement funds that we pay for in the current are designed so that the company's have they can get the excess. The problem is that the funds were hit so hard that they are in debit because the investment's made and they have to make up the diffrence. The Xe's however are not asked to give back part of the sweet deals that they "negotiated". So why should the workers give back there's in the form of lower wages and benefits. :soapbox:
That is absolutely not true. There is no way you can take a percentage of a pay check for 30 years and then turn it into 30 or more years of 90% salary with medical benefits. It's voodoo economics.
The governor of NJ made a speech that said this 49 year old state worker was retiring. He put 149, 000 into the system, but was going to take out $3.4 million. How does that work?
It doesn't. These entitlement programs are destroying this country period.
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Average age of retirement for 80% pay-65.
Average male life expectancy 70
Just sayin
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... and to protect the remaining jobs that haven't already fled overseas or to nonunion farming areas in the south...
Jerry
So this disagreement has now led to name calling? What area of Greenville, South Carolina where BMW is producing one of their top of the line cars is "farming"?
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Average age of retirement for 80% pay-65.
Average male life expectancy 70
Just sayin
Retirement is based on years of service. Start at 24, retire at 54, 30 years service. Life expectancy is higher than 70 I believe and who said it's just men we're talking about? There is also spousal benefits, so it goes on and on. Also basing retirement on higher salary which includes overtime and some where if you were acting at a higher grade position (police/fire) you retired at the other guys level. Towns have been giving employees the option to buy years of service to retire these higher paid guys, but you still pay them now for not working. We had a gut that retired from two police jobs at two different towns. He worked full time at both and collected retirement twice.
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H-D considering moving Milwaukee plant
Now we are into politics. I'm out
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It's all about the unions, move the plants to Arizona it's a "right to work state" :2vrolijk_21:
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It's all about the unions, move the plants to Arizona it's a "right to work state" :2vrolijk_21:
:cherry: :stupid:
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:nervous:
Check this out and then get back to me about......exec pay
http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2008/11/let_gm_ford_and_chrysler_die.html
Detroit News, 17 Oct 2005, Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work
Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.
:drink:
Yup, That's what I want to pay for..........Union employees without work getting $31 an hour to play crossword puzzles.
Took 3 guys who work for GM fishing the other day. 2 of them are engineers who have been demoted on their job description, they are now line foreman. The other engineer has been on temporary layoff for the last 2 years. He only receives 80% of his salary if he stays home but if he goes into work and reads the paper or anything else to make 8 hours, he receives 100% of his salary.
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Set one tire out of the Country and they'll never get another penny from me!
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made some bad decisions, but moving out of the country would be death -- Would anyone continue to support MoCo if they went Mexico, or far east?
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Sorry boys...I can't join in on the "it's all the union's fault" for the position that many of the manufactures are in. It also amazes me that it is those that have never worked in a union shop are the first to blame unions for everything....so many qualified observations, I guess. I'm not saying there isn't some abuse going on in select areas...but, you will find abuse of the system anywhere in the world...period.
Do any of you union-bashers honestly think that the MOCO will lower prices of their products when they have relocated and use cheap non-union labor? C'mon....you think because they kick the union out that they will automatically lower the prices of ANY of their merchandise? Take your typical $35 MOCO t-shirt that is not union made...why does it command such a high price now when it's not sporting the union label? Get real dudes....it's all about profit and maximizing share owner value and putting the screws to YOU the consumer any way they can to make an extra buck.
If the MOCO does go off-shore/near-shore...then I will keep what I have...no new HD in the future for me, thank you.
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:-\
""CAUTION! I have an endless supply of stupid ideas... and THIS may be one of them!"
Well, it's your "quote"...........not mine, so I'm not gonna argue with it! :2vrolijk_21:
I agree that HD will not likely lower prices whether they move to a non-union area or not. Their motivation right now is to re-balance the "supply/demand" ratio.........in other words, they will be cutting back supply in hopes of maintaining and/or boosting price due to (hopefully) a demand that cannot be met by the (artificially lower) supply that they will dictate. :P
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Sorry boys...I can't join in on the "it's all the union's fault" for the position that many of the manufactures are in. It also amazes me that it is those that have never worked in a union shop are the first to blame unions for everything....so many qualified observations, I guess. I'm not saying there isn't some abuse going on in select areas...but, you will find abuse of the system anywhere in the world...period.
Do any of you union-bashers honestly think that the MOCO will lower prices of their products when they have relocated and use cheap non-union labor? C'mon....you think because they kick the union out that they will automatically lower the prices of ANY of their merchandise? Take your typical $35 MOCO t-shirt that is not union made...why does it command such a high price now when it's not sporting the union label? Get real dudes....it's all about profit and maximizing share owner value and putting the screws to YOU the consumer any way they can to make an extra buck.
If the MOCO does go off-shore/near-shore...then I will keep what I have...no new HD in the future for me, thank you.
+100%, & if we stop buying those $35 China shirts, the price will drop!!!
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... I'm getting tired of the leaving town & local support for higher profits mentality of some corporations & pro sports teams. Need to spread the economy around even in less profitable areas. We lost the Pilots, Sonics, pretty soon all of Boeing & Weyerhauser, and some others.
If MoCo bails on Beertown where my beloved Seattle Pilots went(ironic isn't it?), I just might sell my bike & give up riden', because to me it is all about the ride experience as a whole, I feel that strong about it... HD has shown more & more lately they are losing their soul after the success of WG & employee shareholders taking over after the AMF disaster.. Screw 'em if they move...
Who exactly is it that is responsible for spreading "the economy around"? Any why is it that you think Boeing has chosen Charleston, South Carolina to build their new plane?
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Well, my guess would be that just maybe.......like some of the foreign car companies, South Carolina and other southern states offer companies the opportunity to build a plant and employ (non-union) workers that can do the required jobs just fine but without the unreasonable and (unsustainable costs) associated with union contracts and demands. :cherry:
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I think that the "Mother Ship" is just negotiating with the Milwaukee politicians. They want incentives to stay. It's the new "corporate whore" trend in play. They did this a couple of years ago if you recall and came out with a fairly good package.
IF they do go somewhere don't forget that they are trying to make the company smaller since the production numbers are dropping.
So one of the finalists for manufacturing would include Kansas City because of the state-of-the-art plant already there.
Talladega would be on the build list as one of the members pointed out the last time. This is where they own a test track and the state would really like to have them there and are willing to pay for it.
I would think a more "holistic view" would be in order. A centralization of the drivetrain and all model assembly processes in a new facility with state-of-the-art robotics would improve assembly costs and reduce transportation cost significantly.
Milwaukee could be turned into the museum it really is. The corporate offices, Harley Museum, HOG and Willie "G"'s Design studio could stay. The rest should move. York is out because the plant is obsolete and the rebuild costs would be significant.
Like many here I am a stockholder long time buyer of many many new Harley's and a Life HOG member. So I try and follow the trends that many here recognize as well;
--A permanent drop in overall production
--Essentially NO new generation younger buyers entering the market--male or female.
--The older owners are leaving the hobby behind in growing numbers.
--A drop in the number of models offered and rightly so.
--A drastic reduction in dealers.
--A renewed effort to move to just-in-time manufacturing to keep inventory and cost low.
--Outsourcing of the HD new bike delivery fleet.
It's a changing world for Harley and all of us.
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CVOStreetGlide -- I agree, just don't take it south of the border or overseas !!
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Multimillion dollar pay and perks up the wazoo for the executives are perfectly acceptable, but decent pay and benefits for the working stiff is somehow causing the downfall of America? I don't think so. The middle class worker created the economy that was the envy of the world, and the privileged few are destroying it quite rapidly thanks to the "greed is good" philosophy and the morons in Washington who let it happen.
H-D management is looking out strictly for H-D management. Just like at York, if they can intimidate the folks in Milwaukee into giving up everything they've worked for over the past 30 years then management can just pat themselves on the back as they increase their own pay and benefits. And don't forget, their ultimatums at York and now in Milwaukee also included targeting the local politicians, as in give us all kinds of abatements and other goodies or we'll leave your economy high and dry. So not only are the union workers getting the shaft, the local taxpayers who have to make up the difference will also get to grab their ankles. Harley has a history of expecting others to fix their self induced problems. Look at the 1980's for instance. Can't build a competitive product, so talk the government into slapping import duties on the much better bikes from overseas. Didn't help the quality of the bikes, but it cost those of us who bought bikes from other companies that actually had a clue a lot of extra money.
As far as I'm concerned they can take their greedy no quality butts over to China. And not just manufacturing but the whole corporation. That way they could save on the shipping costs for all the cheap Chinese parts, and they would have a huge domestic market that is used to getting junk for products. Should be a perfect match.
Jerry
Jerry i tend to agree with you to a certain point once they bust the union wage and set up shop in an area with a lower standard of living ie less benefits for the workers a lower pay scale, That savings will never be seen on the showroom floor it will only shine on the privileged few know as management, owners, and executives enuff said
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Just saw on the local news that they reached an agreement with the union to keep the plants where they are. Vote will happen Sept. 13th. Don't know any other details.
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The Union will vote "yes" on the new contract. Here is why: people on layoff up to 2 years can vote on the contract. In this new proposal is a $12,000 bonus for people laid off to waive their recall rights. These people know there is no chance of being recalled anytime soon. And even if they are recalled in lets say 5 years, will the company even be around anymore? So if you are sitting around with no job and your car is going to be repo'd and your house is going into foreclosure that $12,000 (plus another $1,000 signing bonus) looks pretty good. There are over 500 people in this situation(currently laid-off from Milwaukee H-D). I know many of them personally. Sad situation.
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Interesting perspective to this article....
http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/102662844.html
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Interesting perspective to this article....
http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/102662844.html
Nice find Scott :2vrolijk_21:
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As much as I love Harley Davidson, I don't agree with the 1.5 mil salaries and 6 + mil bonus structure for Senior Executives. Capitalism is based on free market and talent driving income, but come on... these bastards at the tops of these companies (AIG, ENRON, GM, Ford, Fidelity Investments and hundreds of others that have struggled over the past 3 years) are bleeding these companies dry. I have a Senior Management position for a "quasi" government financial agency. We don't have 7 digit salaries, nor 500%+ bonus structures.
Gov't intervention is not the answer.
Mal
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Sounds like you were on drugs having a fantasy ;)
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serghaven, Last thursday Sept 9th. I went for a ride to Santa Barbara, Ca. HD( about 65 miles from where I live in Simi Valley, CA.), because I heard a rumor that they were closing. I couldn't believe it because they have been in operation for many many years, and actually have a shop in the city of Santa Barbara, and another a little south near Carpenteria Ca. right on the coast. I have a dealership about 6 miles from my house and two other dealerships about 14 miles from my house in opposite directions. I asked one of the salespeople at Santa Barbara Ca. why they were closing and he said they were doing great business, but one of the owner's wanted out and HD refused to approve other investors who wanted in. He went on to say that HD wants to close 10 dealerships in Ca. My local dealership is doing great and their inventory is moving well ( I go in there every week and I can see what has sold and what is still sitting there, they did have a purple Fat Boy that sat their for about 4 months) The people working there are courteous, very knowledgeable, always call you by your name and my experience there has been great before and after I bought my 09SEUC which I got in August of 08. We have a lot of dealerships in the Los Angeles area, but if the salesperson was telling me the truth why would they want to close a very longterm well established shop with a good reputation? Has anyone else heard of anthing like this in your area? CAHDBIKER
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serghaven, Last thursday Sept 9th. I went for a ride to Santa Barbara, Ca. HD( about 65 miles from where I live in Simi Valley, CA.), because I heard a rumor that they were closing. I couldn't believe it because they have been in operation for many many years, and actually have a shop in the city of Santa Barbara, and another a little south near Carpenteria Ca. right on the coast. I have a dealership about 6 miles from my house and two other dealerships about 14 miles from my house in opposite directions. I asked one of the salespeople at Santa Barbara Ca. why they were closing and he said they were doing great business, but one of the owner's wanted out and HD refused to approve other investors who wanted in. He went on to say that HD wants to close 10 dealerships in Ca. My local dealership is doing great and their inventory is moving well ( I go in there every week and I can see what has sold and what is still sitting there, they did have a purple Fat Boy that sat their for about 4 months) The people working there are courteous, very knowledgeable, always call you by your name and my experience there has been great before and after I bought my 09SEUC which I got in August of 08. We have a lot of dealerships in the Los Angeles area, but if the salesperson was telling me the truth why would they want to close a very longterm well established shop with a good reputation? Has anyone else heard of anthing like this in your area? CAHDBIKER
If you followed the General Motors/Chrysler stories last year, you'll see that H-D and their new CEO have been following many parts of the same script. Threaten a huge loss of jobs to gain freebies from various governmental units, beat down the little people (unionized or not) to accept huge givebacks in terms of pay and benefits, close down dealerships as a so-called cost cutting measure, etc. The more you watch the current management at H-D, the more you start to see that they are just following the script to use the taxpayers and employee's to sweeten the pot for the exec's and shareholders. And while there was little if any proof ever offered up to justify the cancellation of many dealerships, it was an excellent opportunity for the manufacturer's to play a little payback to those who haven't kissed the requisite amount of corporate butt. I can see H-D definitely going down that road and using the current "crisis" to the weed out places that don't toe the line. Just as was the case with the auto companies, the actual cost savings to the corporation due to reducing dealerships is tiny (and not very easy to get a real $ figure from them either). So the only justification I can think of is the so-called protection of the brand image. Too many dealers in a relatively small geographical area can lead to cutthroat competition in bad economic times, and terrible things like deep discounting might break out. This does not fit with the H-D philosophy. And just as was the case in the auto business, you need to look beneath the surface and dig into the politics. For instance, is there a very well connected dealer in that same geographical area that will stand to gain significantly from the elimination of that competing dealership?
Jerry
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Harley Workers To Vote On Labor Contracts.
The Milwaukee (WI) Journal Sentinel (9/13, Barrett) reports, "Union employees at Harley-Davidson Inc. will vote Monday on labor contracts that could determine the fate of their jobs and Harley's production facilities in Wisconsin." For the company, "the vote could determine whether manufacturing stays in the Milwaukee area and Tomahawk or is moved somewhere else."
Casual Workers "A Hot Button" Issue In Contract Vote. According to another Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (9/12, Barrett) report, temporary employees "work side by side in the same factories - but often for very different wages and benefits. Companies use temporary, or casual, workers as a way to lower labor costs and smooth out the ups and downs of business cycles. But unions see them as a threat to permanent, full-time jobs and a source of tension in the workplace." Today, "the issue will be a hot button for Harley-Davidson Inc. employees when they vote on a seven-year labor contract that calls for the increased use of casual workers in the company's Milwaukee-area and Tomahawk factories, perhaps at the expense of regular employees."
Harley Expected To Keep Operations In Wisconsin. The Milwaukee Business Journal (9/10) reported, "It appears that Harley-Davidson Inc. will keep its manufacturing operations in southeast Wisconsin, ending for now the threat to move as many as 1,300 jobs out of the Milwaukee area." The company recently "reached a key agreement with...three unions on new proposed collective bargaining agreements. Union members should follow their leaders' recommendation and approve the new pacts to give Harley the cost concessions it said it needs to improve its bottom line."
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I've said it before...let 'em leave! I'll help them pack. It's time that we stupid little people let the smart corporate phonies know that we can get along without them just fine and that they can't get along without us..AT ALL! Every time I hear about something like this (too big to fail, etc.) it it really pisses me off. It's time we woke up!! Who's in charge here anyway?
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Well the contract passed, hard to blame the union members when the company said if it didn't they would start the process of moving tommorrow. As a union member for 34 years I think I'm looking at the company a little different today.
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When it comes right down to it, most companies don't give a damn about their workers...no matter how many years they've slaved so that the execs could live extremely well. While the money is flowing like it'll never end , everything is fine, but when things get a little tough (and Harley among others should have forseen this coming) they quickly forget WHO is responsible for their success. I'm no genius by any means, but Ray Charles could see that. I sincerely think that we're going to have to get used to an entire different way of life in this country.
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How come when a company fails, it's managements fault, but if they are succeeding it's the workers who are responsible?
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How come when a company fails, it's managements fault, but if they are succeeding it's the workers who are responsible?
It's always managements fault when a company fails, just as it's always managements achievement when a company succeeds. The management of a company establishes the objectives, plans the strategy and executes the strategy of the company. Management hires all employees and contractors and is responsible for the supervision and performance of the employees and contractors. Bottom line is it's managements job to hire qualified employees, train the employees, communicate with the employees, motivate the employees, provide the employees a safe work environment and compensate the employees with competitive wages and benefits. Employees have the obligation to perform the job they are trained for and paid to do - to the best of their ability....period. That's where the employees contribution to and responsibility for the success and failure of the company begins and ends. The success or failure of a company resides with the management of the company.
When management goes to the employees of a company and demands reductions in compensation and benefits - and when they go to the local governing bodies demanding incentives because they truly need these contributions in order to remain profitable and viable, it is because management (current or prior) has done their job poorly and mismanaged the company thru either poor long term planning, poor strategic planning or poor execution of their strategic plan. When management makes such demands, the first thing they should do is humbly apologize to the owners of the company, the employees of the company and taxpayers for failing in their obligation of responsibly and profitably managing the company. And the board of directors should evaluate the performance of these executive managers and determine if they are fit for their compensation and positions.
Current Harley Davidson executive management has stated they believe they have excess capacity for their markets and they feel they have uncompetitive labor agreements. They have stated they feel they need concessions from their labor force and they feel they need concessions from the government (and taxpayers) in the form of incentives to achieve long term stability and profitability.
It is of course possible that perhaps Harley Davidson executive management feels the time is ripe to increase profits by taking advantage of the weak labor market and by taking advantage of the taxpayer by demanding state and local government incentives by threatening to relocate their factories and production to more accommodating locations - regardless of whether they truly need these concessions to operate profitably. Perhaps they feel it is their obligation to their owners to make the most profit possible by whatever means available - to the detriment of their employees and and to the detriment of taxpayers. It becomes a matter of how much is enough...
To me - there is a line in there somewhere where moral ground is crossed - and greed has surpassed the good of the company and country. And I think a lot of companies explore this line.
And I say all of this as someone who has been a senior executive in both public and private companies for the past 25 years.
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Did I hear that each and every employee of HD even if laid of gets a check for $12,000 since the vote passed? If that is true does that mean a passing vote was for sale for 12 K per member?
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Did I hear that each and every employee of HD even if laid of gets a check for $12,000 since the vote passed? If that is true does that mean a passing vote was for sale for 12 K per member?
Not an uncommon practice. When those that are laid off are part of the voting block and eligible for the bonus it easy to see the scales are tipped.
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Did I hear that each and every employee of HD even if laid of gets a check for $12,000 since the vote passed? If that is true does that mean a passing vote was for sale for 12 K per member?
NO, the way i read it ONLY the employees laid off will get the 12,000 and thats because they are waiving their right to be recalled. So they will be replaced by temp. (no benefits low pay) workers. So the 12,000 which will be about 7,000 after taxes will be their severance pay and will need to last them until they find a new job.
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It's always managements fault when a company fails, just as it's always managements achievement when a company succeeds. The management of a company establishes the objectives, plans the strategy and executes the strategy of the company. Management hires all employees and contractors and is responsible for the supervision and performance of the employees and contractors. Bottom line is it's managements job to hire qualified employees, train the employees, communicate with the employees, motivate the employees, provide the employees a safe work environment and compensate the employees with competitive wages and benefits. Employees have the obligation to perform the job they are trained for and paid to do - to the best of their ability....period.
When management goes to the employees of a company and demands reductions in compensation and benefits - and when they go to the local governing bodies demanding incentives because they truly need these contributions in order to remain profitable and viable, it is because management (current or prior) has done their job poorly and mismanaged the company thru either poor long term planning, poor strategic planning or poor execution of their strategic plan.[/b] [/size]
Thank you Scott.
I'm glad someone has made it clear why the Motor Company is in the position they are in.
:2vrolijk_21:
SBB
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Or in some cases lack of long term planning, little or no strategic planning
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Not an uncommon practice. When those that are laid off are part of the voting block and eligible for the bonus it easy to see the scales are tipped.
Here is an section from a Milwaukee News Paper "The Milwaukee contract includes one-time lump-sum payments of $12,000, left over from a previous grievance settlement, which go to all active employees and to laid-off workers who were eligible to be called back.
A number of those laid-off workers voted yes, citing the money as a big factor.
"I was laid off, I had no chance of being called back so yeah, I wanted the $12,000," said Greg Kuehn, 49, a machinist who has since found work at a printing company. "If I still worked there, though, I would have voted no"
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7199165.html
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Here is an section from a Milwaukee News Paper "The Milwaukee contract includes one-time lump-sum payments of $12,000, left over from a previous grievance settlement, which go to all active employees and to laid-off workers who were eligible to be called back.
A number of those laid-off workers voted yes, citing the money as a big factor.
"I was laid off, I had no chance of being called back so yeah, I wanted the $12,000," said Greg Kuehn, 49, a machinist who has since found work at a printing company. "If I still worked there, though, I would have voted no"
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7199165.html
"by whatever means available"...
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This whole deal is bad for all concerned, workers, management, stockholders but perhaps most of all loyal customers who have forever put their faith in HD and now may have to be leery of the products made by a very angry workforce, if things were not bad enough prior to the threat of no jobs in Milwaukee.
Hope it plays out well for all concerned.
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While on my ride I took the tour at the York plant. Yeah, I know it was not in Wisconsin, but they were spending a lot of money rebuilding/remodeling the plant. Guess they don't have any "MANAGEMENT" issues there. Just glad I only bought the bike and not the stock. No, I don't need investment lessons. One kick in the wallet was enough. Did go through West Virginia, but it was really raining then. Hope you guys had a "dry" time at the GTG.
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serghaven, Last thursday Sept 9th. I went for a ride to Santa Barbara, Ca. HD( about 65 miles from where I live in Simi Valley, CA.), because I heard a rumor that they were closing. I couldn't believe it because they have been in operation for many many years, and actually have a shop in the city of Santa Barbara, and another a little south near Carpenteria Ca. right on the coast. I have a dealership about 6 miles from my house and two other dealerships about 14 miles from my house in opposite directions. I asked one of the salespeople at Santa Barbara Ca. why they were closing and he said they were doing great business, but one of the owner's wanted out and HD refused to approve other investors who wanted in. He went on to say that HD wants to close 10 dealerships in Ca. My local dealership is doing great and their inventory is moving well ( I go in there every week and I can see what has sold and what is still sitting there, they did have a purple Fat Boy that sat their for about 4 months) The people working there are courteous, very knowledgeable, always call you by your name and my experience there has been great before and after I bought my 09SEUC which I got in August of 08. We have a lot of dealerships in the Los Angeles area, but if the salesperson was telling me the truth why would they want to close a very longterm well established shop with a good reputation? Has anyone else heard of anthing like this in your area? CAHDBIKER
Harley is not attempting to close longterm well established dealerships with a good reputation. They are attempting to close dealerships that no longer have a market that can sustain their dealership. They have told the dealers this for quite some time now. These conditions exist right now in areas of California.
Most likely Santa Barbara buyers/investors were not approved because they would be absentee owners, frowned upon by Harley, or the debt they were going to take on could not be supported by the business.
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The Union sits down with the Company and mutual negotiations usually lead to an AGREEMENT between the parties. When the profit margin goes south and Management has no idea how to make the product more desirable to the consumer, it takes the easy way out and gives the Union an ultimatum. You see the Union give back dollars and benefits in concessions in exchange for the Company giving back....er, sorry I missed that part. If the million dollar management was worth their salary, which they also negotiated and agreed to with the Company, should they not have been aware of a pending downturn in business and done something proactively to compensate? If they didn't, are they not doing their job as agreed? What happens when a normal person doesn't do his job? He gets sh*tcanned and doesn't walk away with a multimillion dolar bonus for being incompetent. I work for a company that has been feeding us the same crap for 12 years. When I asked them at a "skip-level" meeting, how they can justify paying out millions in salary and bonus/compensations to Executives that have been unable to turn a profit for 12 years. The standard answer is that they have to offer that much in order to get the quality Executive interested in the position. And they say it with a straight face. They have not improved the product, or made it more desirable to the consumer. They have laid off over 110,000 employees, Management and Union, and by lowering the overhead and using some creative accounting, they keep the cost to revenue numbers a little closer. It has nothing at all to do with the product. Welcome to American Business 101. HD will survive. After the Executive vultures finish cutting the meat off the bones, it will be sold like every other American icon.
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I think its just more scare tactics to lower the workers wages without cutting management wages.
Seems it is not about lower wages, it is about no pay raises for a few years. Remember Harley has cut way back on production due to way less sales the last two years.
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When it comes right down to it, most companies don't give a damn about their workers...no matter how many years they've slaved so that the execs could live extremely well. While the money is flowing like it'll never end , everything is fine, but when things get a little tough (and Harley among others should have forseen this coming) they quickly forget WHO is responsible for their success. I'm no genius by any means, but Ray Charles could see that. I sincerely think that we're going to have to get used to an entire different way of life in this country.
I agree to a point, but it seems most the country did not see this economic mess coming, or sales falling very flat. Harley sales are way down, so are sales of most other non esentials. Boating industry has been hit much harder, and many of those companies just closed their doors.
In a mess like this every one has to give a little, the worker and the management, if you want to keep some employed.
My industry has been hard hit by the drilling ban. My company has 4 new drill ships not working because of it. They are trying to find work for us out side the USA due to the ban we can not work here. Thank God they are still paying us our wages and finding BS work for us to do. We are non union, if we were Union I would not be working because the Union would not allow an Electronics tech to paint, and clean all day.
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The management of a publicly held compamy has only one responsibility-Maximize stockholder value. the stockholders are the owners of the company and they are the people management has to answer to. You can't blame Harley managment for taking government money when the Obama administration is throwing it all around. Harley mangement would be derelict in their responsibilities if they didn't. And I'm tired of hearing union members in general claim they have a "right" to share in the profits of a company. They weren't there risking their life savings or putting their futures on the line in a number of cases in order to start a company. With the risks come the rewards. Workers agreed to a contract for a certain number of years at alot of companies, and most of them don't want anything longer than 2 or 3 years. When economic conditions change, what's wrong with everybody sacrificing. Why do wages only go up, even in bad times. Here in Wichita, Spirit Aerosystems (formerly Boeing) shoved a 10 year contract down the unions throat. Was it a good decision on either side?--I don't know. Only time will tell. Cessna employees vote Saturday on a similar contract. I think they're going to turn it down and strike. Usually the strike lasts just past the break even point of where the company will give the employees what they want, but because they were off 6-8 weeks, the company still spends less money overall. Kind of funny. For years around here the aircraft workers had great health insurance, at no cost. I remember about 6 years ago or so when Boeing told the union that the workers were going to have to start paying 25 % of the premium cost. They were all screaming like a stuck pig about how they were being screwed and they were gonna strike over it. I told them they needed a dose of reality, most of the real world considered it to be a good perk if a company offered to pay half of your premium. They were so spoiled. Okay, I know this rant is gonna get me in trouble--fire away!!
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I think any sacrifices should be mutual. Today's CEOs are not the same ones that took the chances way back then and when they fail they just move on. When you look at the Board of Directors of most Fortune 100 corporations, you'll notice just how many Boards some are on. It's not talent IMHO, it's convenience. Who you know not what you know.
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The management of a publicly held compamy has only one responsibility-Maximize stockholder value. the stockholders are the owners of the company and they are the people management has to answer to. You can't blame Harley managment for taking government money when the Obama administration is throwing it all around. Harley mangement would be derelict in their responsibilities if they didn't. And I'm tired of hearing union members in general claim they have a "right" to share in the profits of a company. They weren't there risking their life savings or putting their futures on the line in a number of cases in order to start a company. With the risks come the rewards. Workers agreed to a contract for a certain number of years at alot of companies, and most of them don't want anything longer than 2 or 3 years. When economic conditions change, what's wrong with everybody sacrificing. Why do wages only go up, even in bad times. Here in Wichita, Spirit Aerosystems (formerly Boeing) shoved a 10 year contract down the unions throat. Was it a good decision on either side?--I don't know. Only time will tell. Cessna employees vote Saturday on a similar contract. I think they're going to turn it down and strike. Usually the strike lasts just past the break even point of where the company will give the employees what they want, but because they were off 6-8 weeks, the company still spends less money overall. Kind of funny. For years around here the aircraft workers had great health insurance, at no cost. I remember about 6 years ago or so when Boeing told the union that the workers were going to have to start paying 25 % of the premium cost. They were all screaming like a stuck pig about how they were being screwed and they were gonna strike over it. I told them they needed a dose of reality, most of the real world considered it to be a good perk if a company offered to pay half of your premium. They were so spoiled. Okay, I know this rant is gonna get me in trouble--fire away!!
Nope. I won't argue with you. I don't like that what you've said is true but I won't bury my head in the sand and pretend otherwise. Wandell is a jerk. I've come to believe that all CEOs are. But he is doing his job. He's not worth the money they pay him, but that's the going rate. Same as pro atheletes. No one deserves more money for throwing a ball then saving a life, but that's the reality. And we all love to bitch, but we still watch sports and buy harleys. And we're not above doing what's best for ourselves just as the CEO screws the little guys when they can. How many on this site go buy from Jenni because she gives a better price then the local guy? Why not buck up and pay more to support the local shop and keep those local parts guys employed? (yeah, i'm sure everyone is only doing it becasue of Jenni's customer service which I hear is beyond reproach)
So now everone will have to decide who to yell at first. :o ;D
Ride Safe,
JC
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.................................And I'm tired of hearing union members in general claim they have a "right" to share in the profits of a company. They weren't there risking their life savings or putting their futures on the line in a number of cases in order to start a company. .........................................
Well, maybe that argument could hold a little water if Mr. Davidson and Mr. Harley were still around, but I don't think any of the current members of management or the board of directors put up one nickel of their own or risked anything more than a sore butt from sitting around doing nothing all day and collecting nice fat checks. And unless we as a nation decide to repeal the thirteenth amendment and bring back slavery, the people who do the actual work definintely should share in the profits from that work. If the system were fair, and the greed at the top removed, ideally we could have shared risk and reward. But when the top dogs demand all of the goodies and push all the sacrifice down to the bottom, shared risk and reward is nothing more than a joke. Let's see, the CEO gets a $6M bonus for eliminating thousands of jobs after six months, and half the workforce gets an unemployment check and threats about moving their jobs elsewhere. Show me the shared risk and reward.
It's not going to change easily, now that the ME generation has so thoroughly screwed up the corporate and political world, but there will come a time when the folks at the bottom will rise up. You can't give the people a taste of middle class status for decades and then pull the rug out from under them without expecting some backlash. But certain people in this country won't be satisfied until 80% of the population is poor and beholden to the annointed ones for any crumbs they might throw out. Sort of like a certain bunch of clowns who want to eliminate unemployment insurance and medicare and social security. Lot's more really cheap labor for them to abuse when you eliminate the safety net. Well, to those folks and those who agree with them, I'd suggest they make sure their fire insurance is paid up and it covers civil unrest.
Jerry
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Well, maybe that argument could hold a little water if Mr. Davidson and Mr. Harley were still around, but I don't think any of the current members of management or the board of directors put up one nickel of their own or risked anything more than a sore butt from sitting around doing nothing all day and collecting nice fat checks. And unless we as a nation decide to repeal the thirteenth amendment and bring back slavery, the people who do the actual work definintely should share in the profits from that work. If the system were fair, and the greed at the top removed, ideally we could have shared risk and reward. But when the top dogs demand all of the goodies and push all the sacrifice down to the bottom, shared risk and reward is nothing more than a joke. Let's see, the CEO gets a $6M bonus for eliminating thousands of jobs after six months, and half the workforce gets an unemployment check and threats about moving their jobs elsewhere. Show me the shared risk and reward.
It's not going to change easily, now that the ME generation has so thoroughly screwed up the corporate and political world, but there will come a time when the folks at the bottom will rise up. You can't give the people a taste of middle class status for decades and then pull the rug out from under them without expecting some backlash. But certain people in this country won't be satisfied until 80% of the population is poor and beholden to the annointed ones for any crumbs they might throw out. Sort of like a certain bunch of clowns who want to eliminate unemployment insurance and medicare and social security. Lot's more really cheap labor for them to abuse when you eliminate the safety net. Well, to those folks and those who agree with them, I'd suggest they make sure their fire insurance is paid up and it covers civil unrest.
Jerry
I'll continue to buy their product only as long as the quality is there and I can depend on it! I don't care who gets what at the MOCO, the haves and have nots will always be, I can't change a damn thing there. . I like to ride, that is first and foremost to me, if the MOCO starts declining (more) in their quality, then I'm on a Goldwing or a BMW.
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The shared risk by upper mgt., from a publicly held company such as HD is, comes in the form of stock compensation. Very common for bonuses & portions of compensation packages for upper mgt. to be "paid for" by a set number of shares of the company's stock. If that stock goes up, the upper mgt. makes more $$, and if it goes in the dumper, they make diddly. So it is in their best interest, financially, for a company to do well. That's the reason that boards offer top execs company stock as bonus/slary packages - to insure the company does well. Of course this only works as long as a company is well managed & it's product line does well, and it makes a PROFIT. Without a profit, given enough time, the company itself goes in the dumpster which is bad for top execs, middle mgt. & line employees. It's all about sales & profits & the products/services needed to ensure same.
Not sure if HD execs have stock options & frankly not going to invest the time to find out. My bike is running ok & I wish gas was $.29 a gallon like it used to be.
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Well, maybe that argument could hold a little water if Mr. Davidson and Mr. Harley were still around, but I don't think any of the current members of management or the board of directors put up one nickel of their own or risked anything more than a sore butt from sitting around doing nothing all day and collecting nice fat checks. And unless we as a nation decide to repeal the thirteenth amendment and bring back slavery, the people who do the actual work definintely should share in the profits from that work. If the system were fair, and the greed at the top removed, ideally we could have shared risk and reward. But when the top dogs demand all of the goodies and push all the sacrifice down to the bottom, shared risk and reward is nothing more than a joke. Let's see, the CEO gets a $6M bonus for eliminating thousands of jobs after six months, and half the workforce gets an unemployment check and threats about moving their jobs elsewhere. Show me the shared risk and reward.
It's not going to change easily, now that the ME generation has so thoroughly screwed up the corporate and political world, but there will come a time when the folks at the bottom will rise up. You can't give the people a taste of middle class status for decades and then pull the rug out from under them without expecting some backlash. But certain people in this country won't be satisfied until 80% of the population is poor and beholden to the annointed ones for any crumbs they might throw out. Sort of like a certain bunch of clowns who want to eliminate unemployment insurance and medicare and social security. Lot's more really cheap labor for them to abuse when you eliminate the safety net. Well, to those folks and those who agree with them, I'd suggest they make sure their fire insurance is paid up and it covers civil unrest.
Jerry
I basically disagree with you Jerry.
"the people who do the actual work definintely should share in the profits from that work" That implies that people other than those working on the line do not actually work......
"the people who do the actual work definintely should share in the profits from that work" They do, it is called a paycheck...
I like to read your posts generally, up and till you get on the anarchist bandwagon.
If you want to get payed more than a production employee, you have to make yourself more valuable than a production employee.
If your are valuable, you will be paid well.
If you can be replaced by a HS drop out, then your pay will be low.
A lesson that is better learned young than older.
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I like to read your posts generally, up and till you get on the anarchist bandwagon.
..................................
Come on man, I know I can legitimately be called a lot of things, but an anarchist? I don't remember advocating the violent overthrow of any government or other institutions. Sheesh! ;D
I didn't mean to imply that I advocated or promoted the uprising of the downtrodden, I just meant to point out that it is a natural reaction when people believe they have been disenfranchised. I personally remember the riots back in the 1960's, and the number of people involved was nothing compared to what I believe could be the next big uprising. People tend to be funny about certain things; for instance take away their jobs and their homes and their ability to provide for themselves and their loved ones, and they tend to get highly upset. And with the trends I've seen over the past couple decades, and especially in the past few years, I see a big problem coming. Not advocating anything, just observing and commenting.
Jerry
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Maybe I just mis understood this.........
"Well, to those folks and those who agree with them, I'd suggest they make sure their fire insurance is paid up and it covers civil unrest."
That doesn't sound very passive. It has a anarchist flavor to it.
look into "Maslow's hierarchy of needs"
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Maybe I just mis understood this.........
"Well, to those folks and those who agree with them, I'd suggest they make sure their fire insurance is paid up and it covers civil unrest."
That doesn't sound very passive. It has a anarchist flavor to it.
look into "Maslow's hierarchy of needs"
Thank you.
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NO! Thank You!!! We are still talking about Harley aren't we? Wow, so much discussion and no solution.........
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I see three groups of people in the US. The average worker (fourth group would be the non working class), the Wall Street type, and our current leadership.
Out Progressive leaders (while billionaires themselves) demonize the executives in the private sector. Rich sports figures and celebrities are left alone. While demonizing the other rich, they increase entitlements and benefits for the working class (healthcare, extended unemployment). Our leaders are pitting the two groups against each other to build up their power. People, it's a solid plan already seen successful in history: Germany in the 30's (demonized the business owners who were mostly one race), Russia (Lenin and Stalin), Cuba and Castro.
Create chaos and class warfare then take over and form a new government. We now have 40 Czars in the White House. How many in the Kremlin?
Read your history.
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I see three groups of people in the US. The average worker (fourth group would be the non working class), the Wall Street type, and our current leadership.
Out Progressive leaders (while billionaires themselves) demonize the executives in the private sector. Rich sports figures and celebrities are left alone. While demonizing the other rich, they increase entitlements and benefits for the working class (healthcare, extended unemployment). Our leaders are pitting the two groups against each other to build up their power. People, it's a solid plan already seen successful in history: Germany in the 30's (demonized the business owners who were mostly one race), Russia (Lenin and Stalin), Cuba and Castro.
Create chaos and class warfare then take over and form a new government. We now have 40 Czars in the White House. How many in the Kremlin?
Read your history.
http://cloward-piven.com/
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I don't know how the management of Harley does it, but whenever i have had to lay off or cut employees the first thing I did was stop taking a pay check myself, kind of hard to go out on the floor and tell someone you are cutting their hours or laying them off when you have not felt the pain yourself. I have always felt if I had to lay off people I let them down, especially hen they bust there butt everyday. Now firing someone is a different story if they deserve it.
Maybe MOCO needs to get back to being down to earth and feel the pain at the top first and then work there way down, works for me.
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I don't know how the management of Harley does it, but whenever i have had to lay off or cut employees the first thing I did was stop taking a pay check myself, kind of hard to go out on the floor and tell someone you are cutting their hours or laying them off when you have not felt the pain yourself. I have always felt if I had to lay off people I let them down, especially hen they bust there butt everyday. Now firing someone is a different story if they deserve it.
Maybe MOCO needs to get back to being down to earth and feel the pain at the top first and then work there way down, works for me.
Ultimately its the stockholders that demand a paycheck and the people they put in place make it happen. Its all about U/U profits...sell more bikes, lay off people, get parts from China or Japan, close dealers, increase productivity (more production with fewer employees)...its been the plight of many american companies that are no longer with us. As a small business owner for over 40 years I have settled for years of no growth in income during hard times, but when you go public its grow or die. Doc
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Ultimately its the stockholders that demand a paycheck and the people they put in place make it happen. Its all about U/U profits...sell more bikes, lay off people, get parts from China or Japan, close dealers, increase productivity (more production with fewer employees)...its been the plight of many American companies that are no longer with us. As a small business owner for over 40 years I have settled for years of no growth in income during hard times, but when you go public its grow or die. Doc
I completely agree, I now have to ability to accept less income to keep my people going.
(I cannot do that forever)
If I had to answer to board members, I would be gone.
That is the reason that I like private companies over publicly traded companies.
They at least have the ability to make that decision.
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I
If you want to get payed more than a production employee, you have to make yourself more valuable than a production employee.
If your are valuable, you will be paid well.
If you can be replaced by a HS drop out, then your pay will be low.
A lesson that is better learned young than older
[/b]
I fully agree.
I see many at work complaining because their hourly wage is much less than mine, and they do not get retention bonus. I always tell them, you do not have a skill set that management can not replace in one day if you quit. Most are HS grads or drop outs and feel they should earn what the highly trained technical people earn an hour. It usually takes them 3 or four months to find a good Electronics tech with PLC and machine automation back grounds.
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I completely agree, I now have to ability to accept less income to keep my people going.
(I cannot do that forever)
If I had to answer to board members, I would be gone.
That is the reason that I like private companies over publicly traded companies.
They at least have the ability to make that decision.
There does come a time when even the stock holders need to think, is it better to make a little money or worse yet lose a bunch if the product does not meet expectations due to poor labor relations and people stop buying it.
I do answer to a board of directors now, but it is a privately held family company. In Do not believe I would make it in a publicly traded one.
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Seems the problem was not labor relations.
The problem is there is far less demand for high dollar Harleys in this economy.
So Harley does not need to make any more than will sell so they are making less bikes.
So Harley needs to have less workers.
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Seems the problem was not labor relations.
The problem is there is far less demand for high dollar Harleys in this economy.
So Harley does not need to make any more than will sell so they are making less bikes.
So Harley needs to have less workers.
Ah, but it appears that to do so makes you evil.
The truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. And neither side seems willing to meet in the middle. The unions have made americans non-competitive. The management has increased their level of greed to a point where it's embarassing to support their organizations. This is true of many public american companies.
The alternative is to by foreign products that are, in many cases, created by exploited workers at wages that would be considered un livable in this country. Their management is frequently even more evil, but the American press rarely points that out while groveling at the feet of foreigh interests.
Back in the late 70s, Lee Iacocca took a huge pay cut and then asked his workers to do the same. While mostly symbolic since Iacocca was rish and had other avenues of receiving income, the point was that he was at least giving some back too. I do not see Wandell or Willie G or any other Harley exec doing so. Maybe they are and are not publicizing the fact. And I know they are more accessible to their customers then many large corporate exec (Go try to find Steve Jobs at an Apple Users group meeting).
So there is room for both sides to move towards the middle and make it possible for the MoCo to get back both profitability and respectability. We just need to encourage both sides to move. Not just point fingers at one.
Ride Safe,
JC
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Steve Jobs pay and performance:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/apple/steve-jobs-tops-list-of-ceo-overachievers/7987
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Steve Jobs pay and performance:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/apple/steve-jobs-tops-list-of-ceo-overachievers/7987
Absolutely. He's done amazing things for Apple and Pixar. He may in fact have saved Disney. He's an amazing CEO who is evil incarnat as a boss. As an Apple user from back in the days when it was the Steves (plural) not just Jobs it was well known that he was an ecentric egomaniac who one day would appear to be your bestest buddy and the next day throw you to the wolves. The second coming of Jobs has done nothing to change that. And some of his business practices...
My point was, you wont see him at a computer convention, using a computer with his loyal customer base. Willie G has attended many functions. I've been at one of them. He led one of the Ride for life's in support of MDA. At the end of the ride he stode by the bike he had borrowed and waited until the dealer arrived with the trailer to return it to them. He had no body guards. And he and his wife were glad to talk to us and spend some time hanging out, just like the rest of the bikers. Does that mean he's a wonderful person? No, probably not. Is Jobs a better CEO then Wandell? Of course, if you define it by success. But this thread has been talking an awful lot about how awful the management of HD is. And I point out that in the grand scheme of things, they're much worse human beings running much more important companies who get a pass on their ethics.
Oh and about that $1 salary.... Wonde rwhat that poor guy lives on?
Ride Safe,
JC
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:jack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc
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Ah, but it appears that to do so makes you evil.
The truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. And neither side seems willing to meet in the middle. The unions have made americans non-competitive. The management has increased their level of greed to a point where it's embarassing to support their organizations. This is true of many public american companies.
The alternative is to by foreign products that are, in many cases, created by exploited workers at wages that would be considered un livable in this country. Their management is frequently even more evil, but the American press rarely points that out while groveling at the feet of foreigh interests.
Back in the late 70s, Lee Iacocca took a huge pay cut and then asked his workers to do the same. While mostly symbolic since Iacocca was rish and had other avenues of receiving income, the point was that he was at least giving some back too. I do not see Wandell or Willie G or any other Harley exec doing so. Maybe they are and are not publicizing the fact. And I know they are more accessible to their customers then many large corporate exec (Go try to find Steve Jobs at an Apple Users group meeting).
So there is room for both sides to move towards the middle and make it possible for the MoCo to get back both profitability and respectability. We just need to encourage both sides to move. Not just point fingers at one.
Ride Safe,
JC
I do agree with what you are saying.
However the big problem is all major companies have huge compensation packages for their top executives. So if you cut the compensation of the top level people, they will be easily recruited by another company. That is a lot of how these compensation packages got so big, Major companies would up their package to lure the best talent.
Heck, I am seeing this in my industry at the lower end of the food chain. Maintenance techs with PLC or Industrial controls back grounds are hard to find. One company will raise their pay to lure people from another company. I am loving it, as I have had two hourly pay raises this year so I will not go to a competitor. I can not complain in this economy I have gone up 5 dollars an hour this year
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I do agree with what you are saying.
However the big problem is all major companies have huge compensation packages for their top executives. So if you cut the compensation of the top level people, they will be easily recruited by another company. That is a lot of how these compensation packages got so big, Major companies would up their package to lure the best talent.
Heck, I am seeing this in my industry at the lower end of the food chain. Maintenance techs with PLC or Industrial controls back grounds are hard to find. One company will raise their pay to lure people from another company. I am loving it, as I have had two hourly pay raises this year so I will not go to a competitor. I can not complain in this economy I have gone up 5 dollars an hour this year
It's nice to see someone getting some benefit out of this dang economy. Good luck to you.
Ride Safe,
JC
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It's nice to see someone getting some benefit out of this dang economy. Good luck to you.
Ride Safe,
JC
I know most people are taking a real beating. I am counting my blessings. Wife was laid off two years ago, and can not find work in her field, mortgage loans. So she is working part time at the HD dealer and sub teaching, together they do not come close to what she was making.
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http://www.mcall.com/business/mc-allentown-harley-davidson-york-20101105,0,3232124.story
So.... take this thread and subsitute "Kansas City" everywhere it states "Milwaukee" or "York".
Part III
I predict the Kansas City workers will make concessions and the taxpayers will take another hit. :nixweiss:
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"I predict the Kansas City workers will make concessions and the taxpayers will take another hit."
Pls help me understand what you mean by the above statement. Taxpayers do indeed take hits from (Public) unions that make demands that are unreasonable and cost taxpayers more.......but if indeed the KC workers at Harley make concessions.........how does that effect the average taxpayer :confused5:
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:-\
"I predict the Kansas City workers will make concessions and the taxpayers will take another hit."
Pls help me understand what you mean by the above statement. Taxpayers do indeed take hits from (Public) unions that make demands that are unreasonable and cost taxpayers more.......but if indeed the KC workers at Harley make concessions.........how does that effect the average taxpayer :confused5:
Pennsylvania and Wisconsin governmental bodies gave financial incentives and tax concessions to Harley Davidson to help retain their presence in their respective states. My prediction is this will occur in the negotions to retain the Kansas City plant also.
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Pennsylvania and Wisconsin governmental bodies gave financial incentives and tax concessions to Harley Davidson to help retain their presence in their respective states. My prediction is this will occur in the negotions to retain the Kansas City plant also.
:2vrolijk_21: That has been their strategy from the beginning. Play one location against the others (whipsawing), plus screw all the states and cities involved with the ol' extortion deal. State and local taxpayers will pony up to support the fat cats once again, as will the hourly workforce. Still waiting to see what the executives are going to throw into the pot to equalize the pain factor across all segments (yeah, right).
Jerry
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:cherry:
OK, I understand your reply but feel that those types of "concessions" were offered when HD first was looking to (maybe) come to KC. Now, you could be correct if in fact the city agrees to some (new) or extended concessions for tax purposes, etc.
But........" predict the Kansas City workers will make concessions ".......This part of the comment suggested to me something other than that.
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:cherry:
OK, I understand your reply but feel that those types of "concessions" were offered when HD first was looking to (maybe) come to KC. Now, you could be correct if in fact the city agrees to some (new) or extended concessions for tax purposes, etc.
But........" predict the Kansas City workers will make concessions ".......This part of the comment suggested to me something other than that.
If the pattern established in Penn. and Wis. is repeated, new Governmental financial incentives and tax concessions will occur. This will be in addition to worker concessions regarding pay, work rules, part time vs. full time and outsourcing.
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Last April during the CVO tour the rep from the plant, who's in charge of the whole rebuild of the Softail plant to accomodate making the touring bikes under the same roof made a point of saying that they wanted and WOULD make the new York plant capable of building any current or future model of Harley-Davison motorcycle. What I hear locally is that when finished, the new plant will be able to match the current production of Softail and Touring bikes in less then one shift. So add Sporty, Dyna and V-Rod which total production is less then Softail and Touring and you're running two shifts. With three possible... I'd be sweating in K.C.
Just commenting on the production possibilities. Not commenting on the human factor or the political and what's right or wrong.
Ride Safe,
JC
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Last April during the CVO tour the rep from the plant, who's in charge of the whole rebuild of the Softail plant to accomodate making the touring bikes under the same roof made a point of saying that they wanted and WOULD make the new York plant capable of building any current or future model of Harley-Davison motorcycle. What I hear locally is that when finished, the new plant will be able to match the current production of Softail and Touring bikes in less then one shift. So add Sporty, Dyna and V-Rod which total production is less then Softail and Touring and you're running two shifts. With three possible... I'd be sweating in K.C.
Just commenting on the production possibilities. Not commenting on the human factor or the political and what's right or wrong.
Ride Safe,
JC
I think you are dead on. With the lower production numbers of most all of the models it makes good business sense to reduce the operating "foot print".
They have to keep the stockholders happy and the franchise value up or the "financial wolves will come calling"
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Well it is not over. Harley rejects state tax credits
http://www.jsonline.com/business/107332333.html
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Well it is not over. Harley rejects state tax credits
http://www.jsonline.com/business/107332333.html
Good for the average taxpayer. Bad for the employee hoping to retain his/her job.
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:cherry:
Sounds to me like HD made the right decision for maintaining their employment options flexibility and saving the (overall) tax payers in Wisconsin too.
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Bring operations to N.C. where they wouldn't have to worry about unions. :orange: :bananarock: :carrot:
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It is really sad to say but we have all been affected by the outcome of this economy. What I don't here from anyone is that were is the accountability from the source of the problem. I have to say that unfortunately there are more problems to come from the backlash of what has happened from our financial institutions. The unions and pensions are going to be effected deeply. We have tried to take care of everyone for a long time now and we will feel it for a long time coming. There are no job guarantees and no one should look for the public to pay there pensions. We are going to have to learn this process all over again, the old fashioned way. Save, Save and Save some more. Don't rely on our politicians to fix the problems. They are in bed with the Financial institutions! They are the ones waking up with the smile on their faces. Until we are able to find resolutions to our problems, our politicians will continue to use band aids to fix everything. I only wish the best to everyone that has been deeply effected by all of this. Of course to all those people from Harley, we hope the best of things happen for you all!
:nixweiss: :toilet: :drink:
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Why take it to NC where there is not much unions. Employees make $10.00 an hour but bike prices dont go down. And then how long do you think it will take for a guy making $10 to get an attitude and start performing poorly. Result Junk
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Why take it to NC where there is not much unions. Employees make $10.00 an hour but bike prices dont go down. And then how long do you think it will take for a guy making $10 to get an attitude and start performing poorly. Result Junk
And unions make the product better? It's worked in the car industry to have non-unionized plants and I haven't seen the quality of those vehicles go down any. The workers in the non-unionized plants don't seem to be complaining about their pay. :nixweiss: ....just sayin...
:devil:
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And unions make the product better? It's worked in the car industry to have non-unionized plants and I haven't seen the quality of those vehicles go down any. The workers in the non-unionized plants don't seem to be complaining about their pay. :nixweiss: ....just sayin...
:devil:
By the same token, the vehicles produced by the unionized workers in places like FoMoCo are rated just as good or even better than some of those non-union places like Toyota and Honda and Nissan. My point being, it's not so much about union versus non-union as it is about management. Blaming everything on the unionized worker is a really old and tired excuse used for decades by inept management types to cover their own inadequacies.
Jerry
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By the same token, the vehicles produced by the unionized workers in places like FoMoCo are rated just as good or even better than some of those non-union places like Toyota and Honda and Nissan. My point being, it's not so much about union versus non-union as it is about management. Blaming everything on the unionized worker is a really old and tired excuse used for decades by inept management types to cover their own inadequacies.
Jerry
:2vrolijk_21:
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:2vrolijk_21:
:2vrolijk_21:
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:2vrolijk_21:
:2vrolijk_21:
inept management types to cover their own inadequacies
This was never an issue when they were making money.
The world is a different place now.
The Motor Company is way behind in technology and selling a lifestyle to a 20/30 year old customer that doesn't care about it will be tough!
SBB
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By the same token, the vehicles produced by the unionized workers in places like FoMoCo are rated just as good or even better than some of those non-union places like Toyota and Honda and Nissan. My point being, it's not so much about union versus non-union as it is about management. Blaming everything on the unionized worker is a really old and tired excuse used for decades by inept management types to cover their own inadequacies.
Jerry
Jerry, this begs an obvious question. If for purposes of this discussion this is accepted one has to ask the following:
Accepted that a well intended workforce will provide a good build quality regardless of the unionization of that workforce. Also accepted that with a well intended workforce that final build quality is more a function of effective management (i.e., supplying quality materiel, working conditions, morale, etc).
All that being so then why would that effective management choose to accept a unionized workforce with the extra necessities involved when it could produce just as effectively without it?
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Jerry, this begs an obvious question. If for purposes of this discussion this is accepted one has to ask the following:
Accepted that a well intended workforce will provide a good build quality regardless of the unionization of that workforce. Also accepted that with a well intended workforce that final build quality is more a function of effective management (i.e., supplying quality materiel, working conditions, morale, etc).
All that being so then why would that effective management choose to accept a unionized workforce with the extra necessities involved when it could produce just as effectively without it?
(From another Jerry)
Who said the Motor company ever had the option to go with a non unionized labor force?? They chose not to move the facilities and support the labor and the communities they reside in. However at some point in time enough is enough as far as ever escalating labor cost goes and they have no choice but to consider a non union option to reduce expenses. If that means moving the facilities then so be it.
Regards
Jerry (also)
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The biggest savings would be realized if they dumped Keith Wandell. Everybody always wants to take it out of the workers. The same workers have been there through the good times and bad. They are the constant. Just because some overpaid golfer that NEVER rode a motorcycle before in his life walks in and Fs the place up don't blamre the workers. Those same workers have built me some really quality bikes. Wandell never made S#@!
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The biggest savings would be realized if they dumped Keith Wandell. Everybody always wants to take it out of the workers. The same workers have been there through the good times and bad. They are the constant. Just because some overpaid golfer that NEVER rode a motorcycle before in his life walks in and Fs the place up don't blamre the workers. Those same workers have built me some really quality bikes. Wandell never made S#@!
WOW! Most, no, make that all of the dealers I talk to say he's one of the best things that has ever happened to Harley-Davidson. These are dealers that have always been extremely tough on Harley Management and not afraid to express their opinions. He's no nonsense, direct and holds everybody, and I mean everybody accountable. He kept hearing from employees that we do it this way because that's how we have always done it. That doesn't fly these days. "Wandell never made S#@!" He made them a whole bunch better than the prior leadership. Sounds like you, or your friends have been directly affected by the declining demand. Those layoffs and buildings emptying in Wisconsin are not a result of Wandell. It's the result of a shrinking pool of buyers and the need to adjust accordingly.
In Northern California we've had many dealerships close their doors. Two, three years ago they could have sold their business for big $$$, now, if possible they just close it and retire if their situation allows. Others are going bankrupt. Not a one of them is blaming Wandell and his golf game. I'm pretty sure Wandell didn't single handidly stop the people out here from buying Harleys.
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HD has similar problems to other financial lending institutions over the past 3 years or so - a ton of outstanding loans that may or more likely may not "perform". Then along comes Uncle Piggybanks & they get a $2.3 billion bailout from the US Treasury, and Buffet loans them $1 billion emergency operating capital (not Jimmy B., Warren). So.....a total of $3.3 BILLION needed to stay afloat.....obviously the MoCo was on the brink of bankruptcy or dangerously close to it.
As to why HD money was loaned for HD bike purchases that cannot be repayed - or repayed on time one would suppose a casual read of the current Dec. 2010 unemployment stats (9.8% 'reported' but really closer to 18-19% total if you utilize real numbers instead of the ones we see in the media that are made up by people who are paid to make up numbers) it should suffice as an explanation for some. For others its easier to blame a bogeyman or inject politics or just point a finger at whoever & claim "They done it!" It is the economy we live in that has caused this & the HD dealers closing due to lack of sales should be more proof. Most all bike brands are not doing well - Honda closed their US plant & now makes US bikes in Japan, for instance.
As to HD leaving WI - doubt they ever move Corp. away but looking around the US for better manufacturing opportunities indicates HD's concern & responsibility to the folks that own the MoCo - the shareholders.
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Harley56, you are correct. Like it or not, he will take the company into
the 21 century. He has listened to the dealer's, bikers, and employees.
I for one, can't wait to see new products, that are DEPENDABLE, not
just "PRETTY"!
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Althought Wandell may be doing the right thing as far as structuring the company for long term survival, he appears to me to be only doing part of the job. Fixing the operations is great, if said operations are building something that people want to buy and has a long term future. I still do not see much in the way of inovation or modernization in the fleet. I see them cutting the closest thing to a sport bike they had with the Buell line. Old bike buyers usually come from young bike buyers. And if the youngins are laughing, well then I wonder if they'll make the switch to HD. I already know a ton of guys who are getting off the crotch rockets and on to cruisers. Like the Boulevard or Star...
Maybe if Harley was a better price or the best technology or killer quality it would make some of them look this way, but they're already in love with their name brand so why whould they switch to bike that's for the most part 20+ years old tech wise and more expensive to boot.
I hope that it's a case of needing to fix one and now we'll fix the other.... But I'm not holding my breath.
Ride Safe,
JC
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I've always gotten a real charge out of listening to the "new" top management folks (and in 35 years in the auto industry I got to hear from a lot of "new" management folks) tell those of us in the trenches that we just have to do more with less and everything will be all right. Funny thing was that all that BS was only spewed when the customer service and quality and design sucked enough to cause a severe loss of sales. Doing "more with less" in the trenches didn't fix the underlying problems, but it helped improve the bottom line long enough to improve the financial well being of the top management folks before they moved on. Decades of that sort of keen management is what led the domestic industry to the brink, and it appears to be the same sort of BS management being practiced at the MoCo these days.
All the cheapening, union busting, Chinese part sourcing, and other genius tactics won't fix the lack of quality products that people both want and can afford to buy. At best it's like hunkering down in a foxhole waiting for the reinforcements to show up, and ignoring the fact that you forgot to hire any reinforcements.
It's all about product, quality, and customer service. Selling lifestyle got them where they were, but while that was effective with the boomer generation it probably isn't going to cut much ice with the younger folks.
Jerry
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Hey Jerry........... :2vrolijk_21:
jim :coolblue:
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True Jerry, BUT what do you continually read here?
People can't WAIT to get there hands on a new CVO.
IF they wouldn't buy them, maybe the MoCo would get a
clearer picture!
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They're not buying them. Look at the sales numbers.
Their choice of fixing it so far as been to reduce costs, primarily at the blue colar workforce level. I think that's smart. I think it would be even smarter to reduce costs at the white colar work force level. I think it would be flipping brilliant to make a bike that interested people again. The unions are bad. Sorry, but it's true. The management is bad. Has been for years. The quality and design is bad. Didn't start that way but since the last major improvement was in the mid 80's, the world has passed them by. You can't fix the company by fixing just one or two of these issues. All three have to be fixed. A reasonably sized and paid blue colar work force managed by a small nimble white colar executive team whose salary is based on performance not "scale", building some inovative and quality products that interest a broad base of the buying public.
Oh yeah... Santa's coming soon too.
Ride Safe,
JC
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Right now, another big issue for Harley is the market is saturated, and the economy is not so good. Even those still working are spending less on luxuries because of the fear things may get worse. Raises for most are non existent. Lots of very new used bikes on the market because people lost jobs. Many of people feared they would get a tax increase this year. Banks are also tighter on loans right now. They are still easy to get if you have a 700 plus credit score, however those with 500 score who could easily get a loan two years ago, do not qualify now.
I do agree that the White collar work force needs to be trimmed and made leaner, with bonus based on performance. Blue collar work force also needs to be trimmed and the union needs to look at allowing people to do more than just their exact job description. Example when I worked in a non union plant, when nothing electrical was broke I helped the mechanics. We also cleaned our own work areas and took out our trash. The need to put a much higher emphasis on Quality also.
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Right now, another big issue for Harley is the market is saturated, and the economy is not so good. Even those still working are spending less on luxuries because of the fear things may get worse. Raises for most are non existent. Lots of very new used bikes on the market because people lost jobs. Many of people feared they would get a tax increase this year. Banks are also tighter on loans right now. They are still easy to get if you have a 700 plus credit score, however those with 500 score who could easily get a loan two years ago, do not qualify now.
I do agree that the White collar work force needs to be trimmed and made leaner, with bonus based on performance. Blue collar work force also needs to be trimmed and the union needs to look at allowing people to do more than just their exact job description. Example when I worked in a non union plant, when nothing electrical was broke I helped the mechanics. We also cleaned our own work areas and took out our trash. The need to put a much higher emphasis on Quality also.
Just so you know, they did trim a heck of a lot of WC workers. They even trimmed them in the R/D center, so what does that tell you?
I know this, because I know a lot that worked there!
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In the 1990's when HD was kicking butt & taking names (on a multi-month waiting list to buy bikes), they were riding the wave of a healthy economy combined with an AGING population that was growing (baby boomers) with disposable income. So they made a LOT of bikes & a LOT of money. They continued this into the present century, and then the economy got slower, money dried up as jobs dried up, and HD sales are a reflection of that.
If the economy roars again (not likely with the bozo debt crew running the fed store these days) then HD sales would be better than they are now. As it stands, other than maintain their infrastructure as best they can & pay down/write down their own internal problems, it is not very likely that HD will sell big numbers again anytime soon.
The last few years - ABS, new frame, new suspension, new engines, new transmission, throttle by wire, etc. have seen a lot of changes from a company that is known to be slow to change. Expect to see more changes to the product line. I know a number of folks who bought bikes just to get ABS. For me, it was a no brainer.
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In the 1990's when HD was kicking butt & taking names (on a multi-month waiting list to buy bikes), they were riding the wave of a healthy economy combined with an AGING population that was growing (baby boomers) with disposable income. So they made a LOT of bikes & a LOT of money. They continued this into the present century, and then the economy got slower, money dried up as jobs dried up, and HD sales are a reflection of that.
If the economy roars again (not likely with the bozo debt crew running the fed store these days) then HD sales would be better than they are now. As it stands, other than maintain their infrastructure as best they can & pay down/write down their own internal problems, it is not very likely that HD will sell big numbers again anytime soon.
The last few years - ABS, new frame, new suspension, new engines, new transmission, throttle by wire, etc. have seen a lot of changes from a company that is known to be slow to change. Expect to see more changes to the product line. I know a number of folks who bought bikes just to get ABS. For me, it was a no brainer.
Had to spew at this line...very eloquently put...
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Wandell is in charge just since May 2009. Introducing a new product in automotive industry takes minimum twice the time.
He has changed a lot in so short a time and nearly 100% of the people working with H-D over here really believe in him. Just for example a regular sales rep in Germany today knows Wandell personally - and I remember European P.O.T. in 2004: Bleustein was present in Malaga for one day but preferred to have the discussions video presented instead of interacting personally :nervous:
It will take at least another 2 or 3 years to tell if Wandell is the remedy for H-D, but as of now it looks very promising to me ;)
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Just so you know, they did trim a heck of a lot of WC workers. They even trimmed them in the R/D center, so what does that tell you?
I know this, because I know a lot that worked there!
Tells me they have only mad one tiny step in what I feel they need to do.
Notice, I did say trim the white collar before I even brought up the blue collar.
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Wandell is in charge just since May 2009. Introducing a new product in automotive industry takes minimum twice the time.
He has changed a lot in so short a time and nearly 100% of the people working with H-D over here really believe in him. Just for example a regular sales rep in Germany today knows Wandell personally - and I remember European P.O.T. in 2004: Bleustein was present in Malaga for one day but preferred to have the discussions video presented instead of interacting personally :nervous:
It will take at least another 2 or 3 years to tell if Wandell is the remedy for H-D, but as of now it looks very promising to me ;)
Well said, Bleustein left alot to be desired and that was felt by a whole bunch of employees and dealers. It's strongly rumored that Bleustein left the Board because Wandell was chosen over his person.