Topic: O2 sensor color doesn't match exhaust valves (Read 12694 times)

porthole · « **on:** March 23, 2012, 10:16:05 PM »

In the process of changing a tire, decide to change the swing arm bearings, that means pulling all kinds of extra stuff off, especially the 2 into 1 D&D Fat Cats.

The front exhaust valve is nearly white, the O2 sensor is black
The rear exhaust valve is black and the O2 sensor is a light tan.

The bike is running a Revolution Performance Precision EMS.

Ideas as to why the colors would be opposites?

Ideas as to why the front cylinder would be much leaner then the rear on a O2 processed engine?

Front exhaust

porthole · « **Reply #1 on:** March 23, 2012, 10:17:06 PM »

Rear exhaust

porthole · « **Reply #2 on:** March 23, 2012, 10:17:31 PM »

O2 sensors

porthole · « **Reply #3 on:** March 23, 2012, 10:18:09 PM »

O2 sensors

glens · « **Reply #4 on:** March 24, 2012, 10:10:45 AM »

No answers, just an observation. It looks like the rear cylinder sensor is well-bathed in the exhaust stream while the front sensor has only the very tip exposed to good flow. No doubt if the sensor ain't getting a good sample then its ability to offer quality input is going to be limited. I don't know if the sensor could be let into the exhaust a little by reaming the bung down and have that be sufficient or not. It might be as far into the pipe as physically possible but the bung is not located in a good place to begin with. Think of how a winding stream lets sediment deposit on the inside of the curves...

HOGMIKE · « **Reply #5 on:** March 24, 2012, 10:52:21 AM »

Quote from: porthole on March 23, 2012, 10:16:05 PM

In the process of changing a tire, decide to change the swing arm bearings, that means pulling all kinds of extra stuff off, especially the 2 into 1 D&D Fat Cats.

The front exhaust valve is nearly white, the O2 sensor is black
The rear exhaust valve is black and the O2 sensor is a light tan.

The bike is running a Revolution Performance Precision EMS.

Ideas as to why the colors would be opposites?

Ideas as to why the front cylinder would be much leaner then the rear on a O2 processed engine?

Front exhaust

Nice pictures.......can you post some pictures of your plugs?
I agree, something to be concerned about, you would think BOTH cylinders would look similar, not what you see there!

porthole · « **Reply #6 on:** March 24, 2012, 10:54:42 AM »

Sensors do not need to be "bathed" in a good stream. If the pipe is full of gas and heated to the proper temp, the sensors work.
O2 sensors work like a mini fuel cell, outputting a voltage based on a oxygen content difference between the exhaust and a reference (air).

The bungs on the pipes are both the same depths, the rear exhaust bung is located about 2" further downstream.

Something I just noticed is that the ceramic coating on the pipes is two different shades

porthole · « **Reply #7 on:** March 24, 2012, 11:08:32 AM »

Quote from: HOGMIKE on March 24, 2012, 10:52:21 AM

Nice pictures.......can you post some pictures of your plugs?

Yeah later today. have to go back to the dealer this morning because the rep did not put two of everything in the bag

Steve Cole · « **Reply #8 on:** March 24, 2012, 12:52:50 PM »

Quote from: porthole on March 24, 2012, 10:54:42 AM

Sensors do not need to be "bathed" in a good stream. If the pipe is full of gas and heated to the proper temp, the sensors work.
O2 sensors work like a mini fuel cell, outputting a voltage based on a oxygen content difference between the exhaust and a reference (air).

The bungs on the pipes are both the same depths, the rear exhaust bung is located about 2" further downstream.

Something I just noticed is that the ceramic coating on the pipes is two different shades

I'm not sure who gave you the above information but it is not correct. At low engine speeds the exhaust comes in pulses and after the main pulse of exhaust travels down the pipe all kinds of things are happening. Have poor sensor position will and does cause just exactly what you are showing. Here is a link to a Bosch catalog that will explain how sensors are to be positions in the exhaust and those sensor you have are made by Bosch so I would follow there recommendations it you want it to work correctly.

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Oxgen_Sensor__Cat_WEB.pdf

Go to page D4 and D5 to see how to make the bungs and properly mount your sensors. D4 lower left diagram shows proper installation into the pipe and D5 shows how to make the bung along with proper mounting procedures.

porthole · « **Reply #9 on:** March 24, 2012, 02:07:32 PM »

So by that I am to assume that D&D does not know where to correctly locate the bungs?

glens · « **Reply #10 on:** March 24, 2012, 05:30:08 PM »

Quote from: porthole on March 24, 2012, 10:54:42 AM

O2 sensors work like a mini fuel cell, outputting a voltage based on a oxygen content difference between the exhaust and a reference (air).

I agree it acts like a power cell, producing electricity due to oxygen level difference across the element, but I'd not say fuel cell. It really is closer to a simple chemical "battery".

Your sensors' complete systems not only put out signals based on oxygen content differential, but pressure differential as well. The document referenced earlier may go into that, but the sensor's own closed-loop controllers cause somewhat of a pressure differential as needed (either direction) to get the cell itself to stay at the equivalent of "stoich" engine fuel burn, and the controllers put out their signal based on what it took to create that condition. Your sensor systems don't measure the pressures, so it's possible the output is just a WAG at times if other than a "hard-coded" pressure differential actually exists.

Does D&D know how to "do" lambda probe bungs? I don't know. If you're using one of their complete systems, gasket to muffler tail, unmodified, then by your photos I'd say perhaps they don't. If all they did was emulate a stock headpipe's bungs but didn't emulate the amount of backpressure in the system then that may be the problem. To get yours to work correctly the mounting may have to be a bit more unsightly.

An additional possibility may be that you're using -'09 bung locations with an ECM programmed for '10- locations, with the time in the cycle for the sensor poll being too late and the main mass of gas already beyond the sensors. But that's just a WAG on my part. Some of the ECM's sensor poll timings are pretty critical, like the MAP. I don't know about the O2 sensors but imagine that'd be pretty critical too, especially at the lower engine speeds.

Is that front sensor mounted in a location that makes for an eddie? Exhaust gas will follow the outside of a curve as much as possible, just like water does.

Steve Cole · « **Reply #11 on:** March 24, 2012, 07:18:43 PM »

Quote from: porthole on March 24, 2012, 02:07:32 PM

So by that I am to assume that D&D does not know where to correctly locate the bungs?

For the most part all the exhaust guys have not been installing the O2 sensor bungs properly and it does cause issues. This has been going on for years and I've been told by more than one manufacture they do not care. They want to keep from blocking the exhaust flow. Just understand that what your seeing is a perfect case of poor O2 placement. If you look at the 2012 release from HD even they said they were moved for better load speed response and you have to work with it as a system not just mount an O2 and call it good. Many tuners have been turning OFF the O2's simply because they could not understand the problem or know how to fix it.

uscanuck · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2012, 12:48:50 AM »

Quote from: Steve Cole on March 24, 2012, 07:18:43 PM

For the most part all the exhaust guys have not been installing the O2 sensor bungs properly and it does cause issues. This has been going on for years and I've been told by more than one manufacture they do not care. They want to keep from blocking the exhaust flow. Just understand that what your seeing is a perfect case of poor O2 placement. If you look at the 2012 release from HD even they said they were moved for better load speed response and you have to work with it as a system not just mount an O2 and call it good. Many tuners have been turning OFF the O2's simply because they could not understand the problem or know how to fix it.

If you don't have the capability to modify the bung depth or location, at least in the short term, would you be better to program the bike to run in open loop until you can get it corrected?

Steve Cole · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2012, 01:50:38 PM »

If the O2 sensors are not working correctly you only have a couple of choices. Fix the issue or turn them off. Once OFF you loose the ability for the system to do any correcting for variations in fuel quality that we see these days. This is NOT an issue that is caused by the O2 sensor yet an issue cause by the improper mounting of them and hoping they will work.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2012, 02:22:55 PM »

Duane, strictly in the FWIW department Fatcats are on all three bikes here. All with systems that use that same Bosch sensor (EMS on the SEEG and SERK and the T-Max Marelli conversion on the old SERG). My plugs all look even. On the SERG and the SEEG have had occasion to actually see the valves and sensors while doing other things after they'd been in servicve for many miles. They too are even or very very close to it.

glens · « **Reply #15 on:** March 25, 2012, 02:45:08 PM »

Quote from: uscanuck on March 25, 2012, 12:48:50 AM

If you don't have the capability to modify the bung depth or location, at least in the short term, would you be better to program the bike to run in open loop until you can get it corrected?

It may well be the lesser of two evils to run open-loop. But you've got to get good samples to determine how to set the open-loop, so unless you've got a reliable sniffer to stuff up the pipe (how's that alter the system flow characteristics?) then you're not any better off, you'd still need to modify/move the bung.

porthole · « **Reply #16 on:** March 25, 2012, 04:16:47 PM »

Took some pictures last night.

1st is D&D Fat Cats, ceramic coated inside and out. The ceramic did nothing for the heat but at least the pipes don't turn blue. Although, you can see in this picture that the rear pipe has changed from a satin look to just plain dull.

porthole · « **Reply #17 on:** March 25, 2012, 04:17:29 PM »

O2 sensors and plugs

porthole · « **Reply #18 on:** March 25, 2012, 04:18:01 PM »

porthole · « **Reply #19 on:** March 25, 2012, 04:18:50 PM »

Rear pipe with the sensor indexed to installed position

porthole · « **Reply #20 on:** March 25, 2012, 04:19:53 PM »

Front pipe. I think I might have mixed the sensors between front and back now that I have looked at the pics, will have to double check tomorrow.

porthole · « **Reply #21 on:** March 25, 2012, 04:21:23 PM »

From what I can see, only 1/2 the tip is in the stream, the front pipe has an obvious pocket downstream of the sensor that is formed by the pipe and bung. No so much with the rear.

porthole · « **Reply #22 on:** March 25, 2012, 04:26:33 PM »

The bungs have a decent amount of thread, I could probably cut a 1/4" off and still have the O2 sensors threads completely covered.

If that is something that might work I may attempt to try and jig this up to my buddies bridgeport. Don't think I want to try it with a hack saw.

Plan B is to put the old V&H true dual ovals back on and sell the EMS and the Fat Cats. The only reason I have left the Fat Cats on is for the looks, shows off the chrome pulley and belt guard. Personally, I do not see any low end improvement with them.

Losing the heat that comes off that back pipe would be a bonus.

Steve Cole · « **Reply #23 on:** March 25, 2012, 07:21:52 PM »

One thing you can do to cut them down is to use a store bought 1" Counter Bore tool with a pilot. To do this you need to make a plug for the threaded bung. I could not find a set screw so what I did was to take a bolt and cut the threaded area off. I drilled a hole down the center of this threaded part just a little bigger than the pilot in the tool. I then took a hacksaw and cut a slot across one end to fit a big screwdriver. With the Counter bore tool in a battery powered drill I screw the plug down into the bung and then place the tool into the centering hole and slowly cut the bung down. When finished I use a Datsun Oil drain plug (it was the right size) and tighten it in place and look to see if I've got the end square. A few cuts with a flat file, if needed clean it right up. I would cut your down since you have it off, as its only going to help from the looks of your pictures.

The fact that the plating is going away on the rear would say that it's running hotter than the front for sure.

glens · « **Reply #24 on:** March 25, 2012, 08:23:03 PM »

Can you sell the EMS?

FWIW the V&H pipes in general are rather notorious for bung-wrongness.

I saw a post on a forum somewhere a while back where a guy took a bung plug and machined it to act as a pilot for a tool to machine down squarely the end of the bung with a drill. The hex in the plug remained for insertion/removal. I don't know how kind a bung-shortening will be to the ceramic coating...

porthole · « **Reply #25 on:** March 25, 2012, 08:30:53 PM »

So, do you think setting the sensors in the pipe a 1/4" deeper would make a difference?

If repositioning (cutting the old and welding the new) is the only correct option, I will put the old pipes back on.
But if setting them deeper is a viable option I found counter bores with variable pilots on the McMaster Carr site.

The pipes are not plated. Although the color has changed, there seems to be no degrading of the material.
And it is not blue or purple.

I'll look closer tomorrow, at what I can cut.

porthole · « **Reply #26 on:** March 25, 2012, 08:35:43 PM »

Quote from: glens on March 25, 2012, 08:23:03 PM

Can you sell the EMS?

Why not? It is a bolt on item, and I used an extra ECM when I installed it. Still have my original ECM with the SE Race Tuner installed.

Quote from: glens on March 25, 2012, 08:23:03 PM

FWIW the V&H pipes in general are rather notorious for bung-wrongness.

If I go that route (V&H's are in the basement) it will be "bung-less" and a non loop system.

Quote from: glens on March 25, 2012, 08:23:03 PM

I saw a post on a forum somewhere a while back where a guy took a bung plug and machined it to act as a pilot for a tool to machine down squarely the end of the bung with a drill. The hex in the plug remained for insertion/removal. I don't know how kind a bung-shortening will be to the ceramic coating...

When the pipes were coated, the plugs were in, so there is no coating on the surface that would be cut.

Steve Cole · « **Reply #27 on:** March 25, 2012, 10:57:32 PM »

A 1/4" is a pretty big amount when it comes to O2 sensor position. I have heard of others cutting down D&D's with good results so, if its not a big deal for you to do it is definitely worth trying. The fact that the color went dull is the sign of higher heat on your rear pipe. It a common deal when the ceramic coating get overheated is goes to a flat/dull looking color. If you keep pushing on it with heat it then starts getting powdery on the surface. I think I had to give about $35 for a cutter. I found it on the net but cannot remember where

porthole · « **Reply #28 on:** March 25, 2012, 11:50:09 PM »

I need to grind out the inside of the front pipe too. From what it looks like the sensor was actually touching the pipe.

Steve Cole · « **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2012, 07:25:10 PM »

Is the pipe inside the diameter of the threaded area of the mounting bung? If so, then yes it should be cleared out of the way

porthole · « **Reply #30 on:** March 27, 2012, 12:35:41 AM »

Quote from: Steve Cole on March 26, 2012, 07:25:10 PM

Is the pipe inside the diameter of the threaded area of the mounting bung? If so, then yes it should be cleared out of the way

Just enough where it looks like the sensor may be touching it.

Quote from: Twolanerider on March 25, 2012, 02:22:55 PM

Duane, strictly in the FWIW department Fatcats are on all three bikes here. All with systems that use that same Bosch sensor (EMS on the SEEG and SERK and the T-Max Marelli conversion on the old SERG). My plugs all look even. On the SERG and the SEEG have had occasion to actually see the valves and sensors while doing other things after they'd been in servicve for many miles. They too are even or very very close to it.

Don, can you compare the bung location on my pipe to your 3?

Twolanerider · « **Reply #31 on:** March 27, 2012, 08:29:56 AM »

Quote from: porthole on March 27, 2012, 12:35:41 AM

Don, can you compare the bung location on my pipe to your 3?

Just from the visual they look at least similar. Though it would be impossible to compare precise angles. Try to give some specific measurements from obvious fixed points to a center point of each bung and will compare as well as I can.

porthole · « **Reply #32 on:** March 27, 2012, 10:13:25 AM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on March 27, 2012, 08:29:56 AM

Just from the visual they look at least similar. Though it would be impossible to compare precise angles. Try to give some specific measurements from obvious fixed points to a center point of each bung and will compare as well as I can.

That's not necessary. But if you can get an idea of the length of the bung, that may help.

I have a HSS 1" counter bore and removable 5/8" pilot coming today or tomorrow. See if I can mess up my pipes.

Steve Cole · « **Reply #33 on:** March 27, 2012, 07:19:47 PM »

The easy way to check this is to use a piece of safety wire (~6") and bend about 1/8" over about 70 deg. Stick the wire through the mounting bung and hook the bent part of the wire on the ID of the pipe. Use a marker to mark the wire flush with the top of the bung. Do this for both the long and short side. Now take out a piece of paper and draw a vertical line about 3/4" long. At the top of the line use your wire and line up one of your two marks on the wire with the line then go horizontally over to the hook part and put a dot on the paper. Repeat the same with the other mark at the bottom of your vertical line. Now take a ruler and draw a straight line to connect the two dots. This gives you the perfect size of your O2 bungs on a piece of paper and you can lay the O2 sensor right on top of it to really see whats truely going inside of the pipe! Just line up the gasket part with your vertical line and see what sticks past the line that you connected the dots.

porthole · « **Reply #34 on:** March 27, 2012, 09:23:06 PM »

Ok, I had to read that 3-4 times to figure if out.
Will give it a try in a bit.
Got my fancy counter bore and pilot, and the pilot doesnt fit.........

Twolanerider · « **Reply #35 on:** March 27, 2012, 10:05:19 PM »

Quote from: porthole on March 27, 2012, 09:23:06 PM

Ok, I had to read that 3-4 times to figure if out.
Will give it a try in a bit.
Got my fancy counter bore and pilot, and the pilot doesnt fit.........

That'll be more accurate than a comparative measure I'd give you too.

Steve Cole · « **Reply #36 on:** March 28, 2012, 03:49:04 PM »

What I have in my head doesn't always come out so good when it gets typed. If you have any questions ask away and I will answer them.

HOGMIKE · « **Reply #37 on:** March 28, 2012, 10:51:10 PM »

Quote from: porthole on March 25, 2012, 04:18:01 PM

.

Have you ever checked your gas mileage?
Just thinking you are running a little on the rich side!

porthole · « **Reply #38 on:** March 28, 2012, 11:22:44 PM »

Quote from: Steve Cole on March 28, 2012, 03:49:04 PM

What I have in my head doesn't always come out so good when it gets typed. If you have any questions ask away and I will answer them.

I figured it out - I think

Front O2,
"O" = originals location
"N" = new

porthole · « **Reply #39 on:** March 28, 2012, 11:23:51 PM »

porthole · « **Reply #40 on:** March 28, 2012, 11:31:13 PM »

Counter bore with replaceable pilot.

This tool required a 3/16" pilot bore shank.
The pilot I got was exactly 3/"16" and the counter bore was drilled for 3/16", so the pilot did not fit.
Took 20 minutes chuckled into a drill press and some "

porthole · « **Reply #41 on:** March 28, 2012, 11:31:47 PM »

cvobiker · « **Reply #42 on:** March 29, 2012, 09:00:40 AM »

Oh chit... This is defiantly O2 surgery... Good luck, this is becoming very interesting to follow....

Steve Cole · « **Reply #43 on:** March 29, 2012, 12:49:32 PM »

Your picture pretty much shows it all. It's NOT the O2 sensors or the ECM's fault when it doesn't work right when they are not mounted correctly.

porthole · « **Reply #44 on:** March 30, 2012, 09:41:38 AM »

So, here are 4 pictures of my O2 sensors. My question, are these the sensors that pull the O2 reference air through the harness?
It is obvious these sensors have a harness that is sealed almost up to the wire connector.

If so, that could be another issue, having the sensor harness wire tied tight to the frame could block any reference air from getting to the sensor.

porthole · « **Reply #45 on:** March 30, 2012, 09:42:46 AM »

Harness jacket sealed to sensor and secondary jacket zipped up tight.
The top of the O2 sensor is also sealed.

porthole · « **Reply #46 on:** March 30, 2012, 09:43:27 AM »

What is this piece in the center?
Now I am wondering is this is a ferrule to allow wire tying up tight without collapsing the jacket.

porthole · « **Reply #47 on:** March 30, 2012, 09:59:22 AM »

The jacket is definitely sealed to the sensor.

Steve Cole · « **Reply #48 on:** March 30, 2012, 11:29:29 AM »

Yes, all O2 sensors draw air in through the wire harness area. Those are a Bosch LSU4.2 Broad Band sensor and they have been modified, which Bosch recommends against doing. While I can't say anything about the modifications what I can tell you is that when the plug was cut off the end and replaced, they cut out the trimming network that Bosch had in it. Each sensor that Bosch makes of this model gets tested and then trimmed in for proper calibration. The trimming is done and placed into the connector and this is why Bosch says DONOT cut or modify the O2 assemble but you've got what you've got.

porthole · « **Reply #49 on:** March 30, 2012, 11:48:00 AM »

These are the sensors supplied with the RP EMS kit.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #50 on:** March 30, 2012, 12:02:19 PM »

Quote from: Steve Cole on March 30, 2012, 11:29:29 AM

Each sensor that Bosch makes of this model gets tested and then trimmed in for proper calibration. The trimming is done and placed into the connector and this is why Bosch says DONOT cut or modify the O2 assemble but you've got what you've got.

Quote from: porthole on March 30, 2012, 11:48:00 AM

These are the sensors supplied with the RP EMS kit.

.....and we may have just learned something. The Bosch sensors as supplied from the manufacturer are a calibrated piece. Revolution Performance modifies them. This we already knew.

The EMS kit, distinct from TTS, TMax, PC et. al; requires calibration of the sensors local to the kit they are installed with. It also has onboard hardware to simply and quickly do this. Now we know why this is so.

So, in the end, no drama at all.

Boatman · « **Reply #51 on:** March 30, 2012, 12:25:58 PM »

I'm learning alot in this thread even though I didn't want to. $:-\$

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #52 on:** March 30, 2012, 12:31:57 PM »

Quote from: Boatman on March 30, 2012, 12:25:58 PM

I'm learning alot in this thread even though I didn't want to. $:-\$

X2, Bob...

cvobiker · « **Reply #53 on:** March 30, 2012, 01:50:32 PM »

Would be interesting to hear a reply from RP regarding this and their modification.

??

sadunbar · « **Reply #54 on:** March 30, 2012, 06:03:15 PM »

Quote from: cvobiker on March 30, 2012, 01:50:32 PM

Would be interesting to hear a reply from RP regarding this and their modification. ??

See reply #50 from Twolane...

"The EMS kit, distinct from TTS, TMax, PC et. al; requires calibration of the sensors local to the kit they are installed with. It also has onboard hardware to simply and quickly do this. Now we know why this is so."

Twolanerider · « **Reply #55 on:** March 30, 2012, 07:21:11 PM »

Quote from: cvobiker on March 30, 2012, 01:50:32 PM

Would be interesting to hear a reply from RP regarding this and their modification. ??

The problem Duane is correcting here is with the bung rather than the sensor itself. So not sure what RevPerformance could add. Not intending to speak for them. It's just an issue with another part. The bung's issue admittedly would keep the sensor from working optimally. But it's not a sensor issue per se.

Steve Cole · « **Reply #56 on:** March 30, 2012, 08:45:11 PM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on March 30, 2012, 12:02:19 PM

.....and we may have just learned something. The Bosch sensors as supplied from the manufacturer are a calibrated piece. Revolution Performance modifies them. This we already knew.

The EMS kit, distinct from TTS, TMax, PC et. al; requires calibration of the sensors local to the kit they are installed with. It also has onboard hardware to simply and quickly do this. Now we know why this is so.

So, in the end, no drama at all.

Really? So Bosch says do not do it and Rev buys a kit from DTT that says the trimming network is not needed. I'm sorry but I will stick with what the people who developed and designed the sensor say to do with it. It's also nice to note that Bosch also says that you need to use the trim network to properly adjust each sensor to get correct readings in all of there documents and with out it (trim network) there is no specification on what the accuracy of the sensor will be. If you really believe that these guys know more............
I would be willing to bet that Bosch could save a ton of money by not hand testing each and every one and adding the trim network to them, yet they still do! Each and every auto manufacture that uses these uses them with the trim network in place too, guess none of them know what there doing.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #57 on:** March 30, 2012, 09:02:54 PM »

Quote from: Steve Cole on March 30, 2012, 08:45:11 PM

Really? So Bosch says do not do it and Rev buys a kit from DTT that says the trimming network is not needed. I'm sorry but I will stick with what the people who developed and designed the sensor say to do with it. It's also nice to note that Bosch also says that you need to use the trim network to properly adjust each sensor to get correct readings in all of there documents and with out it (trim network) there is no specification on what the accuracy of the sensor will be. If you really believe that these guys know more............
I would be willing to bet that Bosch could save a ton of money by not hand testing each and every one and adding the trim network to them, yet they still do! Each and every auto manufacture that uses these uses them with the trim network in place too, guess none of them know what there doing.

Steve, as has been suggested before if I want advice on your product I'll ask you. If I want advice on someone else's product I'll ask them. Your predilection toward narcissistic self-aggrandizement at the expense of anything mentioned in competition is too regularly illustrated. Don't need another example.

So, if I want information on any of the details of the EMS product I'll ask Brian at Revolution Performance. Or will rely on my own experience with the product on a couple bikes here in concert with the support from Revolution Performance.

Guess I could save a step and ask them for insights on your product and services als...... oh, wait, that wouldn't work. They've proved to be a gracious enough people with enough customer service insight to know it's counter productive and rude to talk about the competition in public just to jack yourself up. Their insecurities are (apparently) about the size (or even less) of the material Duane had to shave off that exhaust bung.

You were doing so well too. Suggestions to Duane previously in this thread that stayed on point without too much patting yourself on the back nor real ridicule of the competition. Had seem a couple of other similar instances lately also. Old habits really die hard....

glens · « **Reply #58 on:** March 30, 2012, 09:27:49 PM »

Judging by that response I'll have to guess that you and Steve have some antagonistic history?

Steve may have in the past done/said stuff such as you suggest, but he sure hasn't done it in this thread. At least not that I can see. If one didn't already know, they'd have no idea by anything he's said here that he markets a product that could considered to be competition to the kit in use as the subject of this thread. Right?

How does the EMS kit calibrate the sensors' closed-loop controllers?

glens · « **Reply #59 on:** March 30, 2012, 09:33:04 PM »

Quote from: porthole on March 30, 2012, 09:43:27 AM

What is this piece in the center?
Now I am wondering is this is a ferrule to allow wire tying up tight without collapsing the jacket.

That'd be my guess. I'd also orient the connectors so that the jacket on the sensor lead doesn't collect water into a trap, however it may be that it breathes through the leads (either along the outside or through the length of wire inside the insulation).

Twolanerider · « **Reply #60 on:** March 30, 2012, 10:06:17 PM »

Quote from: glens on March 30, 2012, 09:27:49 PM

Judging by that response I'll have to guess that you and Steve have some antagonistic history?

Steve may have in the past done/said stuff such as you suggest, but he sure hasn't done it in this thread. At least not that I can see. If one didn't already know, they'd have no idea by anything he's said here that he markets a product that could considered to be competition to the kit in use as the subject of this thread. Right?

How does the EMS kit calibrate the sensors' closed-loop controllers?

Hasn't done it in this thread... To the degree he's done it in the past. But it's a baby step thing in his history. And it's gotten so old.

Steve can and has been a valuable resource within the community here. When he's not being an outright salesman or watching his own back (even to his own detriment). His tendency toward the latter in times past has worn thin enough that his good intentions in this thread (or others) are watched with the proverbial short leash.

As a group here we're lucky Glen. There are some members here that are professionals within the field that participate as members. Guys that don't see their membership as a sales medium within a target rich environment and choose to be another "one of the guys." One of the guys with potentially more insight, background and knowledge and a willingness to share those things; but still just one of the guys.

There are others that are perpetually in competition. If one of them chatters up within a thread another will have to attempt to step above and beyond to score points or, potentially, score a sale. And there are those few who have to defend themselves and their wares, ad infinitum and ad nauseum, whether their wares are challenged or questioned or just because they might be compared.

Those latter categories get so old so fast. For a bunch of guys that just want to hang around and chat about the bikes it's a pain in the ass. That some are judged by their history is unfortunate but understandable.

You, for example, in your short time here have seemed almost nothing but helpful; with an intent to chat bikes and share an obviously well informed knowledge of the systems of which you choose to speak. And, thanks to the Travel Gods, you've done with so without a bit of the CYA or need to demean some perceived competition that has in the past been all too prevalent from others.

hawgzilla · « **Reply #61 on:** March 31, 2012, 07:57:50 AM »

I have to say that what IS getting old is the Steve bashing any time he tries to educate the public on what he knows a great deal about. He only posts the truth about the systems but some people don't seem to want to hear that. If one has a personal beef with Steve, it's my opinion that it should not be aired here. I would like to say a big thank you to Steve for taking the time to educate us with the facts. JMHO

Twolanerider · « **Reply #62 on:** March 31, 2012, 08:25:11 AM »

Quote from: hawgzilla on March 31, 2012, 07:57:50 AM

I have to say that what IS getting old is the Steve bashing any time he tries to educate the public on what he knows a great deal about. He only posts the truth about the systems but some people don't seem to want to hear that. If one has a personal beef with Steve, it's my opinion that it should not be aired here. I would like to say a big thank you to Steve for taking the time to educate us with the facts. JMHO

Not at all unfair to be dissatisfied with my (and others) reaction to the man. If it's "getting old" to you I'm sorry. What got old (a long time ago and repetitively) to me (and others) was Steve's delivery method of the "education" you praise him for offering.

He's been a poster child for "pedantic." The all too regular whiplash reactions to not just comparisons with but even mentions of other products is every bit as unwelcome as is the responses to him that you don't care for. In this case, however, there is an obvious chicken and egg. The egg won't have need to crack if the chicken doesn't squawk.

glens · « **Reply #63 on:** March 31, 2012, 09:27:01 AM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on March 31, 2012, 08:25:11 AM

The egg won't have need to crack if the chicken doesn't squawk.

Well, that's rather what I was getting at earlier in that this time it seems the egg'd got cracked regardless.

Thanks for the kind closing words earlier. I favor the one kit over the others not because it's the one I chose (repeatedly now), rather I use it because in my estimation it's the best (even still) currently available. Other than that I don't have any cocks in the fight.

What is the mechanism the EMS uses to calibrate its O2 sensors' closed-loop controllers? A "free air calibration" is the "usual" method and works well-enough to tie things together at one end of the operational spectrum, but if there's any non-linearity (like maybe with the factory-trimmed resistor removed?) it concentrates the error all the way to the other end, more where the sensor actually gets used. And it can't be performed well without dangling the sensor outside the pipe in an unenclosed area. So I'm wondering how EMS does it, if you'd be so kind...

captdave221 · « **Reply #64 on:** March 31, 2012, 10:17:17 AM »

Quote from: hawgzilla on March 31, 2012, 07:57:50 AM

I have to say that what IS getting old is the Steve bashing any time he tries to educate the public on what he knows a great deal about. He only posts the truth about the systems but some people don't seem to want to hear that. If one has a personal beef with Steve, it's my opinion that it should not be aired here. I would like to say a big thank you to Steve for taking the time to educate us with the facts. JMHO

+1 HERE!

Twolanerider · « **Reply #65 on:** March 31, 2012, 10:33:20 AM »

Quote from: glens on March 31, 2012, 09:27:01 AM

Well, that's rather what I was getting at earlier in that this time it seems the egg'd got cracked regardless.

Thanks for the kind closing words earlier. I favor the one kit over the others not because it's the one I chose (repeatedly now), rather I use it because in my estimation it's the best (even still) currently available. Other than that I don't have any cocks in the fight.

What is the mechanism the EMS uses to calibrate its O2 sensors' closed-loop controllers? A "free air calibration" is the "usual" method and works well-enough to tie things together at one end of the operational spectrum, but if there's any non-linearity (like maybe with the factory-trimmed resistor removed?) it concentrates the error all the way to the other end, more where the sensor actually gets used. And it can't be performed well without dangling the sensor outside the pipe in an unenclosed area. So I'm wondering how EMS does it, if you'd be so kind...

Yes, repetitive squawking can lead to unfortunate cracking

.

As for the EMS package. No need for me nor anyone else to put words in their mouth:

porthole · « **Reply #66 on:** March 31, 2012, 11:34:01 AM »

Quote from: cvobiker on March 30, 2012, 01:50:32 PM

Would be interesting to hear a reply from RP regarding this and their modification. ??

I sent my info and a link to this page so I didn't have to duplicate my efforts to RP. I received an acknowledgment of my concern and it was being passed on to the engineers.

porthole · « **Reply #67 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:02:35 PM »

Steve-Don or Don-Steve - c'mon now, lets not be pissing in each others Cheerios. I think we are all learning a little something here.
Sometimes people in the know or really educated about something tend to not convey exactly what they mean and sometimes they forget where they are going with it, stepping on some toes along the way.

Something I learned so far, my hi tech expensive D&D Fat Cats are built with apparently no inclination to actually making the O2 system function correctly. Just found on the Daytona page a representation of their O2 pipe weld nut, it is about 1/3 the length the weld nut that is installed by D&D.
Scroll down about 2/3 of this page
http://www.daytona-sensors.com/WEGO3.html

I learned a really long time ago, that when reading, if you come to a word you do not understand and continue reading, most of what you read past the unknown word is irrelevant.
Don - I'm gonna have to start charging you soon

porthole · « **Reply #68 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:04:26 PM »

Geez, I erased my own post

glens · « **Reply #69 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:24:58 PM »

He's referring to the place where Steve mentioned the trim resistor that's set at the sensor factory and according to their documentation is not to be removed.

porthole · « **Reply #70 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:40:54 PM »

Quote from: glens on March 31, 2012, 12:24:58 PM

He's referring to the place where Steve mentioned the trim resistor that's set at the sensor factory and according to their documentation is not to be removed.

Really? So Bosch says do not do it and Rev buys a kit from DTT that says the trimming network is not needed

Quote from: sadunbar on March 31, 2012, 11:21:50 AM

......needlessly offered a critical assessment of a competitor's product in a sarcastic, antagonistic tone.....

Quote from: glens on March 31, 2012, 12:24:58 PM

He's referring to the place where Steve mentioned the trim resistor that's set at the sensor factory and according to their documentation is not to be removed.

Sorry, I don't see it as a "sarcastic, antagonistic tone", just back to the presentation that I mentioned above.

I picked the RP kit based on what I knew at the time, have no reservations about it. Although the implementation of the kit seems to be an issue with my bike.

Have to wonder how many more "auto-tuners" out there that have been designed to a high degree of technical know how and are mitigated by poor workmanship on an exhaust weld nut installation.

I for one did not order a $700 exhaust with O2 bungs thinking I would have to spend time, money and aggravation to make the exhaust work as I intended it in the first place.

Could have skipped that step and just had weld nuts installed in my V&H true duals.
Which come to think of it, I may just do that if all this work doesn’t drop the temps a little bit on the rear pipe.

I did not see any low end torque improvement, so the 2-->1 may be a moot point anyway.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #71 on:** March 31, 2012, 01:06:08 PM »

Duane,

In all the years I have been dinking with this stuff I have never had a commerical true dual out perform a half decent 2 into 1 pipe at low end. Could you please post the dyno sheets that show where you had no gain as it might paint the picture better. If there is truly no gain on the dyno are you sure that your exhaust reading is correct at each cylinder as this isnt passing the sniff test. /no pun intended

I do suggest though that we follow at least one rule here and that is not to trust your seat of the pants diagnosis.

/stir stir stir

Steve Cole · « **Reply #72 on:** March 31, 2012, 02:21:58 PM »

Look you guys are all big boys so if posting of the truthful facts is a problem here, so be it. I put up the real factual information along with the data to backup just what I've said and if you really believe that any of these aftermarket guys (including me) knows more than Bosch does about Bosch sensors then by all means do not follow the instructions from the manufacture Bosch.

As for Twolanerider comments I've just learned that when anyone disagrees with him he goes on the attack. He is unwilling to go learn the truth about it even when handed the documents that explain it.

110tHunDer · « **Reply #73 on:** March 31, 2012, 02:35:59 PM »

At one time, I was interested in this thread.

glens · « **Reply #74 on:** March 31, 2012, 02:40:25 PM »

Steve, it may be that the trim pot on the controller is a suitable substitute for the resistor provided by Bosch at the time of manufacture, I don't know. I don't think the pot would be less susceptible to temperature and vibration than a fixed resistor, but it likely suffices at least for a time. If I were using those sensors I'd rather calibrate them from a bottle of the results of actual stoich burn than all the way at one end of the scale, I know that much.

ultrafxr · « **Reply #75 on:** March 31, 2012, 04:49:06 PM »

Quote from: 103tHunDer on March 31, 2012, 02:35:59 PM

At one time, I was interested in this thread.

I still am.

timo482 · « **Reply #76 on:** March 31, 2012, 09:11:54 PM »

i for one am VERY interested in the technical aspects of this discussion.

im also interested in why rp quit making the things [or more correctly only make them for a narrow range of years]

i liked the idea that they could turn a 04 and newer open loop bike into a closed loop bike as im on the hook to get a college grad a bike in about a year and dont have as much cake to do that with as i had when i made the deal in the first year of high school [like 90 percent less cake than i had back then... sigh]

and while im at that ive been really looking at how to make a older twin cam into a closed loop delphi bike on the cheap to provide said grad what was promised within the meager funds - other than turning over my bike to make good. [those that want to whine and throw rocks - will you even think of turning your own ride over to somebody to make good on a promise? hmmm?]

so please - steve and all keep bringing the info out - i want the market of good ideas to flow & thank ALL of you for talking about what works and how and why - and please lets quit throwing rocks at each other - all the kids see is old guys throwing rocks

to

porthole · « **Reply #77 on:** March 31, 2012, 11:41:22 PM »

Did anyone look at the difference in bungs/weld nuts that DTT has on their website compared to what D&D puts on the pipes?

hogasm · « **Reply #78 on:** April 01, 2012, 08:48:48 AM »

Quote from: porthole on March 31, 2012, 11:41:22 PM

Did anyone look at the difference in bungs/weld nuts that DTT has on their website compared to what D&D puts on the pipes?

Yes

porthole · « **Reply #79 on:** April 01, 2012, 10:42:45 AM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 31, 2012, 01:06:08 PM

In all the years I have been dinking with this stuff I have never had a commerical true dual out perform a half decent 2 into 1 pipe at low end.

I said "I" did not see an improvement. There may be some increase in low end torque, but certainly not enough to offset the amount of heat that comes off those pipes, especially the rear pipe.
Talking overall experience here.

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 31, 2012, 01:06:08 PM

Could you please post the dyno sheets that show where you had no gain as it might paint the picture better.

Harry - you already know what Dyno I used...........................

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 31, 2012, 01:06:08 PM

If there is truly no gain on the dyno are you sure that your exhaust reading is correct at each cylinder as this isnt passing the sniff test. /no pun intended

Well given the visuals on my sensors, they may very well not be passing any sniff test.

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 31, 2012, 01:06:08 PM

I do suggest though that we follow at least one rule here and that is not to trust your seat of the pants diagnosis.

The two dynos closest to me are both dealers. I would not let either of the 2 dealers even change my oil, let alone beat on my bike with a dyno.

I'm just not interested in squeaking out every last pony from the engine. As it is now, even with the current issues, it will still womp all over your bike.
Maybe next time I am down there you will show up for the "meet" instead of leaving me hanging around to fend for myself.

HOGMIKE · « **Reply #80 on:** April 01, 2012, 11:46:15 AM »

Quote from: porthole on April 01, 2012, 10:42:45 AM

I said "I" did not see an improvement. There may be some increase in low end torque, but certainly not enough to offset the amount of heat that comes off those pipes, especially the rear pipe.
Talking overall experience here.

Harry - you already know what Dyno I used...........................

Well given the visuals on my sensors, they may very well not be passing any sniff test.

The two dynos closest to me are both dealers. I would not let either of the 2 dealers even change my oil, let alone beat on my bike with a dyno.

I'm just not interested in squeaking out every last pony from the engine. As it is now, even with the current issues, it will still womp all over your bike.
Maybe next time I am down there you will show up for the "meet" instead of leaving me hanging around to fend for myself.

COOL!
A CHALLENGE!!

Unbalanced · « **Reply #81 on:** April 01, 2012, 12:08:58 PM »

Quote from: porthole on April 01, 2012, 10:42:45 AM

I said "I" did not see an improvement. There may be some increase in low end torque, but certainly not enough to offset the amount of heat that comes off those pipes, especially the rear pipe.
Talking overall experience here.

Harry - you already know what Dyno I used...........................

Well given the visuals on my sensors, they may very well not be passing any sniff test.

The two dynos closest to me are both dealers. I would not let either of the 2 dealers even change my oil, let alone beat on my bike with a dyno.

I'm just not interested in squeaking out every last pony from the engine. As it is now, even with the current issues, it will still womp all over your bike.
Maybe next time I am down there you will show up for the "meet" instead of leaving me hanging around to fend for myself.

Duane,

The dyno you refer to while trustworthy is not as accurate LOL This has nothing to do with every pony just the idea that down low your trustworthy tool is leading astray in regards to your true duals out performing your 2 into 1. In the first 2700 rpm I believe you will find a large difference of area under the graph that you were / would not achieve with true duals.

Head up to Rockaway and see Ken Puzio at Blackhills.

http://www.blackhillscustomparts.com/

http://www.blackhillscustomparts.com/dyno.htm

What meet are you talking about Duane, havent heard of you making bikeweek or biketoberfest yet? You have my cell number dunno why you wouldnt have called to say you were here. One would think had you been here you would have wanted front row seats to the spanking that was delivered.

Black Diamond · « **Reply #82 on:** April 01, 2012, 12:26:24 PM »

Harry

I'm not sure the blanket statement that 2 -1 always has better bottom end than TD.

In the attached dyno
Fat Cat 2 - 1 w/ Quiet Baffles as tuned by Brian @ T-Man - green line
BUB 7 TD as tuned by Bere @ Gutterridge - blue line

Butt dyno - no difference but I like the looks and sound of the TD. FWIW.

cvobiker · « **Reply #83 on:** April 01, 2012, 03:18:33 PM »

Quote from: Steve Cole on March 30, 2012, 11:29:29 AM

Yes, all O2 sensors draw air in through the wire harness area. Those are a Bosch LSU4.2 Broad Band sensor and they have been modified, which Bosch recommends against doing. While I can't say anything about the modifications what I can tell you is that when the plug was cut off the end and replaced, they cut out the trimming network that Bosch had in it. Each sensor that Bosch makes of this model gets tested and then trimmed in for proper calibration. The trimming is done and placed into the connector and this is why Bosch says DONOT cut or modify the O2 assemble but you've got what you've got.

Maybe that's why (both) DTT and RP have a free air calibration module with their system.. I think your smart enough to realize this is a suitable arrangement to keep the Bosch LSUF sensor in GOOD working order, which by the way has been approved by Bosch.. But realizing you have other motives to support your very own product, i guess you think you can make your claims to confuse a lot of folks... BTW - Twolane made some very accurate accounts in thread #60,,, he defiantly hit nail on the head..

For the confused folks.. read this tech note at DTT http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tech_wego.html HEADING: Why do WEGO systems use a Deutsch connector in place of the Bosch connector on the wide-band sensor? And the same would apply to Revolution Performance EMS

Unbalanced · « **Reply #84 on:** April 01, 2012, 04:14:22 PM »

Quote from: Black Diamond on April 01, 2012, 12:26:24 PM

Harry

I'm not sure the blanket statement that 2 -1 always has better bottom end than TD.

In the attached dyno
Fat Cat 2 - 1 w/ Quiet Baffles as tuned by Brian @ T-Man - green line
BUB 7 TD as tuned by Bere @ Gutterridge - blue line

Butt dyno - no difference but I like the looks and sound of the TD. FWIW.

I have never had that happen with the bikes / pipes I have done. Would love to see Bere tune the D&D vs. someone else tune. Not saying they can't be close or that there arent exceptions to the rules, but typically its not been what I have run into.

Steve Cole · « **Reply #85 on:** April 01, 2012, 07:29:10 PM »

Quote from: cvobiker on April 01, 2012, 03:18:33 PM

Maybe that's why (both) DTT and RP have a free air calibration module with their system.. I think your smart enough to realize this is a suitable arrangement to keep the Bosch LSUF sensor in GOOD working order, which by the way has been approved by Bosch.. But realizing you have other motives to support your very own product, i guess you think you can make your claims to confuse a lot of folks... BTW - Twolane made some very accurate accounts in thread #60,,, he defiantly hit nail on the head..

For the confused folks.. read this tech note at DTT http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tech_wego.html HEADING: Why do WEGO systems use a Deutsch connector in place of the Bosch connector on the wide-band sensor? And the same would apply to Revolution Performance EMS

Since Bosch clearly states in all there manuals and installation documents NOT to do it where do you come up with it is approved by Bosch? Please provide some documentation from Bosch showing this. My claims have all come with the supporting documents so they are not really my claims they are Bosch's claims!

cvobiker · « **Reply #86 on:** April 02, 2012, 09:01:52 AM »

Quote from: Steve Cole on April 01, 2012, 07:29:10 PM

Since Bosch clearly states in all there manuals and installation documents NOT to do it where do you come up with it is approved by Bosch? Please provide some documentation from Bosch showing this. My claims have all come with the supporting documents so they are not really my claims they are Bosch's claims!

Steve,, talk with any Bosch engineer and he'll give you and education about their wide-band sensors....of course you really know deep down that the Bosch Wide band is best thing since Apple Pie, and that would be Grandma's Homemade apple pie - mind you.....anytime Bosch WideBand comes into play,, you get so paranoid.. Lighten up dude...Accept it!!!! There are other alternatives that work as well as TTS. Quit downplaying others and accept the world of competition... This forum is about members discussing their experiences, AND not having a select few vendors trying to cram down our throat their very own products... If someone likes TTS, god bless him, if some else likes DDT or RP, god bless him too... As much as you have bashed both RP and DTT you never once have heard a bashing word from Chris or Brian, both of which are members here...In fact they both have awesome products that match well to yours and you never once hear them trying pursade or suggesting otherwise.. Those are two men I have a lot of respect for and I have used both of their products, which by the way are my choice that I'm very happy with... It's always been my life long observation, anytime vendors bash things to your extent, it sends a message they are afraid of the competition. You'd be further ahead if you kept your opinion to your own product and stopped knocking your competition. There a few people here that know here you are comming from and you can't hide from them... And over here, we won't get kicked off disagreeing with you

HOGMIKE · « **Reply #87 on:** April 02, 2012, 09:44:28 AM »

Some people get a little bit "fired up" over comments made about their "baby", just different personalities......you just gotta move on.
The OP comments and pics of his o2 sensor color and plug colors etc were of a concern to him, and I would ask the same questions.
Without getting into a debate over what aftermarket tuner is better, my question would be "why are my sensors a much darker (richer?) color than a stock sensor?
Why does it seem that the colors are not what we'd expect in a clean (proper) running engine?
Is this something to worry about?

Steve Cole · « **Reply #88 on:** April 02, 2012, 11:28:47 AM »

Quote from: cvobiker on April 02, 2012, 09:01:52 AM

Steve,, talk with any Bosch engineer and he'll give you and education about their wide-band sensors....of course you really know deep down that the Bosch Wide band is best thing since Apple Pie, and that would be Grandma's Homemade apple pie - mind you.....anytime Bosch WideBand comes into play,, you get so paranoid.. Lighten up dude...Accept it!!!! There are other alternatives that work as well as TTS. Quit downplaying others and accept the world of competition... This forum is about members discussing their experiences, AND not having a select few vendors trying to cram down our throat their very own products... If someone likes TTS, god bless him, if some else likes DDT or RP, god bless him too... As much as you have bashed both RP and DTT you never once have heard a bashing word from Chris or Brian, both of which are members here...In fact they both have awesome products that match well to yours and you never once hear them trying pursade or suggesting otherwise.. Those are two men I have a lot of respect for and I have used both of their products, which by the way are my choice that I'm very happy with... It's always been my life long observation, anytime vendors bash things to your extent, it sends a message they are afraid of the competition. You'd be further ahead if you kept your opinion to your own product and stopped knocking your competition. There a few people here that know here you are comming from and you can't hide from them... And over here, we won't get kicked off disagreeing with you

I haven't said one thing about any product comparison so why are you getting so worked up. No vendor bashing is going on accept in your head! I pointed out the Bosch specifications for proper mounting and using of there sensor. I, as well as all auto manufactures follow what they recommend to get the sensors to work as BOSCH specifications call out for. I have not only spoken with Bosch engineers about the sensor but we are also a Bosch Motorsports distributor, so yes we know a thing or two about the sensor and its application. If you want the results to come out right you follow what the manufacture tells you to do otherwise you will not get the proper results. Why is it that seems to bother you so much I do not know. The sensor is a fine product and I have never said otherwise, what I have said is the misapplication/ misuse of the sensor does not allow it to work properly and that is what you cannot accept. I'm still waiting for your supporting documentation from Bosch on your claim that cutting the sensor wires is OK, as that goes completely against what is in there published documents and recommendations.

The OP post started as a problem, I simply point out the possible cause of it and why it happens, something I haven't seen you doing here.

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #89 on:** April 02, 2012, 12:35:20 PM »

There are a few ways to resolve this "issue", but first let me say that I have not seen any evidence of anyone bashing another product, only questioning their use of a second party product (Bosch) based on their understanding/expertise on the proper application of said product. One could certainly read between the lines and come to a different conclusion, but unless I missed something, nobody said anything bad about another manufacturer's product, directly. That would be, at best, unwise.

So...1) Somebody could produce documentation that proves that Bosch DOES approve of different methodology to properly calibrate their sensors...after all, Bosch does not have a dog in the "tuner" hunt, they just provide a component, properly calibrated from the factory, with recommendations on what NOT to do, based on what I'm reading. If someone has found an equally viable way of proper calibration, I can't imagine them having an issue with it being done that way, if it in fact works. Generally speaking, there is usually more than one way to skin a given cat. 2) Somebody could produce documentation from Bosch that says NO other way of calibration is viable, or as accurate, as their methods. 3) Everybody could STFU and get back to the problem at hand, which is the fact that the OP sensors are obviously not optimally placed in the exhaust flow, at least on one pipe. I'm no tuning Wizard by any stretch of the imagination, but I DO know a little something about proper placement of sensing devices and their importance in the proper operation of whatever logic device they feed data to. Ideally, the sensor will be placed in a straight run of pipe, midstream. It CAN make a difference if it is sensing on the inside or outside of a curve, because the flow is likely to be different in those locations. Insertion depth also makes a big difference. Both situations are happening in this particular application. So, whatever can be done to address those two things is what needs to happen, as best as they can be addressed, given the constraints of the application (cramped space on a motorcycle).

hawgzilla · « **Reply #90 on:** April 02, 2012, 01:14:16 PM »

X2-----Finally the voice of common sense.

grc · « **Reply #91 on:** April 02, 2012, 01:42:43 PM »

Quote from: Midnight Rider on April 02, 2012, 12:35:20 PM

There are a few ways to resolve this "issue", but first let me say that I have not seen any evidence of anyone bashing another product, only questioning their use of a second party product (Bosch) based on their understanding/expertise on the proper application of said product. One could certainly read between the lines and come to a different conclusion, but unless I missed something, nobody said anything bad about another manufacturer's product, directly. That would be, at best, unwise.

So...1) Somebody could produce documentation that proves that Bosch DOES approve of different methodology to properly calibrate their sensors...after all, Bosch does not have a dog in the "tuner" hunt, they just provide a component, properly calibrated from the factory, with recommendations on what NOT to do, based on what I'm reading. If someone has found an equally viable way of proper calibration, I can't imagine them having an issue with it being done that way, if it in fact works. Generally speaking, there is usually more than one way to skin a given cat. 2) Somebody could produce documentation from Bosch that says NO other way of calibration is viable, or as accurate, as their methods. 3) Everybody could STFU and get back to the problem at hand, which is the fact that the OP sensors are obviously not optimally placed in the exhaust flow, at least on one pipe. I'm no tuning Wizard by any stretch of the imagination, but I DO know a little something about proper placement of sensing devices and their importance in the proper operation of whatever logic device they feed data to. Ideally, the sensor will be placed in a straight run of pipe, midstream. It CAN make a difference if it is sensing on the inside or outside of a curve, because the flow is likely to be different in those locations. Insertion depth also makes a big difference. Both situations are happening in this particular application. So, whatever can be done to address those two things is what needs to happen, as best as they can be addressed, given the constraints of the application (cramped space on a motorcycle).

I believe Steve was right on the money when he mentioned the poor job many pipe companies do with bung location. Some of these companies make no bones about the fact that they sell based on looks or noise making ability or supposed horsepower gains, and they don't really worry too much about the real science. You would think they could at least follow the recommendations of the sensor companies for things like depth and angle of the bung, but obviously not. They don't even have to do the science, just follow the fairly simple instructions Bosch makes available.

As for the debate about modifying someone's product for use in your product, I don't think this is the first time in history that someone has done that. I haven't taken the time to fully study and understand DTT's or RP's decision to cut off a perfectly good connector provided by Bosch, but as long as they recalibrate the sensor I don't see the big deal. At the end of the day what's important is whether or not the system works properly. I haven't seen any evidence in this thread so far, one way or the other, concerning the accuracy of the systems assuming the sensor location in the pipe is correct.

Seems to me all the chest thumping and bad mouthing aimed at the guy trying to help is misdirected. The bad mouthing looks like it should be aimed at the folks at D&D. If folks have personal issues with the guy trying to help, that's too bad but it isn't helping fix the problem porthole brought to the table.

Good luck getting it running right Duane. I think all the work you've done bringing this problem to light and posting pics has been of great value to the group, as have the contributions of Steve and glens. Some of us have learned some good stuff and we appreciate it.

Jerry

Black Diamond · « **Reply #92 on:** April 02, 2012, 04:39:21 PM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on April 01, 2012, 04:14:22 PM

I have never had that happen with the bikes / pipes I have done. Would love to see Bere tune the D&D vs. someone else tune. Not saying they can't be close or that there arent exceptions to the rules, but typically its not been what I have run into.

Bere (Gutterridge) did tune this motor with the D&D pipe. Brian worked on her after him. Brian got more out of her. 3 or 4 ft lbs down low and just under 2 hp if I recall correctly. Every motor's different.

Ed Ramberger - One_Screamin_Eagle · « **Reply #93 on:** April 06, 2012, 12:20:12 AM »

Quote from: Steve Cole on March 24, 2012, 12:52:50 PM

I'm not sure who gave you the above information but it is not correct. At low engine speeds the exhaust comes in pulses and after the main pulse of exhaust travels down the pipe all kinds of things are happening. Have poor sensor position will and does cause just exactly what you are showing. Here is a link to a Bosch catalog that will explain how sensors are to be positions in the exhaust and those sensor you have are made by Bosch so I would follow there recommendations it you want it to work correctly.

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Oxgen_Sensor__Cat_WEB.pdf

Go to page D4 and D5 to see how to make the bungs and properly mount your sensors. D4 lower left diagram shows proper installation into the pipe and D5 shows how to make the bung along with proper mounting procedures.

buell95 · « **Reply #94 on:** April 14, 2012, 06:23:20 PM »

Been running my rp kit for 1 year now when first installed it wouldnt idle right.
RP had me send my rush 2-1 header to them they cut and rewelded the 02 bungs to get them
more into the stream, They also had to do this to a d&d exhaust they told me. Bike runs fine now.
Just call them they will tell you.

porthole · « **Reply #95 on:** April 04, 2013, 01:09:32 PM »

The V&H head pipes are in a box and going to Drago's to get bungs installed and ceramic coated.

Hoping for the best which means about a 1000 degrees cooler on the rear pipe and better then 32 MPG.

Sklywag · « **Reply #96 on:** April 04, 2013, 11:38:12 PM »

For Steve

With all that's been said here about bung placement and not modifying the 02 sensors. I am about to convert my 06 CVO Ultra from open to closed loop. Using the Fullsac "D" Pipe. So I have the choice of using it with 09 style bungs up high or 10 up bungs at the collector.

Which would be the preferred method? I know you list the 09 parts in the TTS Manual for this conversion.

Thanks

Steve Cole · « **Reply #97 on:** April 05, 2013, 12:47:16 PM »

You have to use the '09 parts as the ECM code is not written to use the '10 and up heated sensors for your application.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #98 on:** April 05, 2013, 01:13:38 PM »

Quote from: porthole on April 04, 2013, 01:09:32 PM

The V&H head pipes are in a box and going to Drago's to get bungs installed and ceramic coated.

Hoping for the best which means about a 1000 degrees cooler on the rear pipe and better then 32 MPG.

Sorry Duane they only guarantee 998 degrees cooler you are gonna get burned

Are you going to retune the bike for better gas mileage or take it somewhere once the bungs are installed and it is sent back?

Sklywag · « **Reply #99 on:** April 05, 2013, 03:05:04 PM »

Thanks Steve!

porthole · « **Reply #100 on:** April 07, 2013, 11:22:48 AM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on April 05, 2013, 01:13:38 PM

Are you going to retune the bike for better gas mileage or take it somewhere once the bungs are installed and it is sent back?

See how it runs.

porthole · « **Reply #101 on:** April 13, 2013, 11:09:17 AM »

Here is a before and after the cutting of the O2 bungs.
There was no change in performance or fuel mileage.

Top is before and the front is on the left for both views

porthole · « **Reply #102 on:** April 13, 2013, 11:10:29 AM »

Quote from: porthole on March 24, 2012, 11:08:32 AM

Yeah later today. have to go back to the dealer this morning because the rep did not put two of everything in the bag

And I will be doing that again! What good is a list if they can't follow it? And why would you request only 1 gasket when 2 are required

Author Topic: O2 sensor color doesn't match exhaust valves (Read 12694 times)