Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[MrSurly]

The worst part of this ordeal is the DEALER. Rather than all this arguing, since we all know that the dealer says the cylinders are "good", why doesn't the dealer simply get another kit in and swap cylinders? The odds are that the dealer itself will be installing the returned kit on another bike and they already blessed them.
OR they'll sell them to someone else who won't check them closely.
Odds are that the next set they get will likely check good.

[happyman]

1.) He found they were OOR so went back to the dealer to get another set;
2.) The dealer balked, called the Mothership for guidance;
3.) Mother said:"They are NOT OOR, you stupid people aren't doing the measurement correctly!" 4.) They said the Royal Cylinders can only be measured with the Emperor's Torque Plates.
5.) If measured properly with Emperor's Torque Plates, they will be proven round."
6.) Based on this poppycock the dealer is refusing to swap or refund.
7.) The dealer is taking the MoCo's position that there is nothing wrong with them.
8.) Trahog does not appear to be believing them... he's saying "PROVE IT"  or give me my money back!.

Trahog is on the money here.  The person who did the measuring is very professional. HD needs to listen , instead of living in denial all the time.  The way they conduct themselves is very insulting to say the least.  the changes in the specs they make when they find out they have huge numbers of out of spec parts. Change the specs to cover the out of spec  numbes so they can skate through the warrrenty without making the bike reliable.  Now that is criminal to some people I have spoken to. for sure it will cut into sales eventully.

[HD Street Performance]

Look at this video
Notice how the factory applies pressure to bore cylinders and simulate preload.


So I will answer my own question..
What happens when cylinders are out of round? First the rings have to conform to the out of round condition and in the worse cases they never do. In cases when they do the rings no longer turn and the ring life, engine cooling, oil control, and sealing all are sacrificed.
How does this play out..
Motorcycle runs fine for a while and deteriorates faster than a normal lifespan.

[hrdtail78]

Look at this video
Notice how the factory applies pressure to bore cylinders and simulate preload.


So I will answer my own question..
What happens when cylinders are out of round? First the rings have to conform to the out of round condition and in the worse cases they never do. In cases when they do the rings no longer turn and the ring life, engine cooling, oil control, and sealing all are sacrificed.
How does this play out..
Motorcycle runs fine for a while and deteriorates faster than a normal lifespan.

After watching the video.  I realized I'm wasting time and money on assembly lube.

[HD Street Performance]

LMAO
Funny I thought the same

[sadunbar]

After watching the video.  I realized I'm wasting time and money on assembly lube.

It would appear there is no reason to protect the piston rings from scraping across the threads of the cylinder studs when the cylinders are installed. 

And it would take one more station to inspect flywheel runout after the press assembly of the flywheels, but that would take investment in an inspection station and time....

[RoadDawg]

The video kept stalling every ten seconds or so. I have not watched it yet, but it sounds like harsh criticism from the forum so far. But if this is the way Harley typically builds engines and they're doing something wrong, why do so many of their engines have a long life?

[ultraswede]

The video kept stalling every ten seconds or so. I have not watched it yet, but it sounds like harsh criticism from the forum so far. But if this is the way Harley typically builds engines and they're doing something wrong, why do so many of their engines have a long life?

Maybe because people dont mess with them, and just ride?

I dont think a 117 would be any worse than a over bored 107, at least from my experience.
i.e.
 " Motorcycle runs fine for a while and deteriorates faster than a normal lifespan."

[CVOStreetglide]

HD loves the internet. Capitalizing on dirty laundry.
Torque plates are about tenths, if the cylinders are a few thousandths out no need to even break out the plates, they are out of round. No heat cycles or any other rituals will fix them except honeing them. With steel liners that are ~.040" thick at the spigot, dicey. Throw plates on them and then you have properly preloaded out of round cylinders. 
What happens when they are egg shaped?

I ran across the posibility of another issue with the new steel cylinders.

It seems that they are so hard that the chrome is flaking off of the rings in some instances.

IF SO, definitely NOT good!!

[ultraswede]

I ran across the posibility of another issue with the new steel cylinders.

It seems that they are so hard that the chrome is flaking off of the rings in some instances.

IF SO, definitely NOT good!!

What your source for that info?

[Hilly13]

My word that video is an eye opener! I watched a mega factory video on Mercedes building V8's for one model, they used lube.....HD literally slap these engines together and run them, pass or fail, next.

[hrdtail78]

The video kept stalling every ten seconds or so. I have not watched it yet, but it sounds like harsh criticism from the forum so far. But if this is the way Harley typically builds engines and they're doing something wrong, why do so many of their engines have a long life?

I was taught some common shop practices my whole life.  Don't spin bearing dry, take care of ring faces, lube cylinder skirts with engine oil......... and assemble engines with lube for metal to metal contact area.  Ends of pushrods, oil pump gears.....

I'm not saying they are wrong and I am right, but it is the potential problems that can happen that I am trying to avoid.  A small chip in the ring isn't going to show up on a leak down or CCP test.  Might burn some oil.  Anybody ever try and deal with a dealership on oil consumption? 

They are spinning that engine dry until the lube gets in and has time to go every where it is suppose to.  Spinning a engine over at 500 rpm takes a couple of starter cycles to get lube to come out of lifters with no pushrods installed.  How long it take to get oil up to lube valve tips on a assembled engine? 

I also can't watch TV w/ helicopters, guns, or motorcycles without correcting the show to my wife, and she corrects the nursing stuff and guns.  Thank god she understands that all bikes on TV use the same Harley sound bite.   

Anyway, back to OT.

[Mr. Warlock]

Damn.......... might as well beat those pistons into the cylinders with a hammer, WTH I've never seen such rough and crued engine building, I don't know whether to laugh out loud or cry.

[Hilly13]

Damn.......... might as well beat those pistons into the cylinders with a hammer, WTH I've never seen such rough and crued engine building, I don't know whether to laugh out loud or cry.

I would love to hear the moco rational as to the method, I bet it would not be "in the interests of maximizing profits", I imagine it would be more along the lines of "after rigorous and extensive testing our world class engineers have determined best practice" LOL

Our bad, we still buy them 

[timo482]

it sure looks to me like they are pumping in oil, then turning it over - ??