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[porthole]

Part 2

I've come to the conclusion that the bike just isn't what it should and could be and I'm going to take the warranty risk.  I'm not just risking my standard warranty, but the extended warranty thru 2011.

Do the stage one download and then have someone do the PC over it. That way if you have a problem you can pop off the PC and no bird brain tech support imbecile will know you did it. And you are not giving HD any extra money for the overpriced SERT.

…  I had some fractured (?) wires to one of my fuel injectors and this might have contributed to my bike doing some sputtering at lower speeds.

Fractured wires, come on, maybe you to need to find someone else to look at the bike.

….  cancelled my order for the SERT.  Will do the MOCO flash.  

Do the flash and the PC, that is the most recommended procedure on this site.
Problem with the SERT is that once you download it, it remains in the ECM’s memory.

Before going to the SERT and having it dynoed it would 'ping' under load with anything else I ran.  After the SERT it doesn't seem nearly as sensitive to what fuel I use
Bob

Somewhere on this site I did a report on the SERT. I had significant improved drivability. Pinging became almost non-existent, the engine ran cooler etc. Of course I also changed the pipes and air cleaner at the same time allowing more air in – more air out.

On the topic of carbon build up while at the dealer yesterday to have service done I found out about something that will eliminate some/all of this problem.

Has anyone heard of   Fuel System Cleaner? This is a three-part procedure that involves the following.

Having worked at several dealerships that offered these services I never believed in them, voodoo stuff, mechanic in can etc. Ever wonder why the manufacturers of the vehicles don’t offer their own systems?

The vehicles, our bikes included, are required by law to meet emissions standards for “X” amount of miles. Injectors clogging and or other issues, I believe you can’t be totally correct by these systems. There may be some credibility though.
Ever wonder that if a particle was small enough to get past the in tank fuel filter and large enough to clog an injector how would flushing it clean it out?
Did you know most in tank fuel filters (on the pick up tubes) are so fine that they do not allow water particle to pass through?

[porthole]

Here is the word on my bike.

BTW did you know that it is almost impossible to talk to the people responsible for the decisions regarding your problems?

We have a dipchit tech support guy named Rich in Milwaukee who denied the claim saying I over revved the bike because of the SERT.

We have a service rep that refuses to answer my phone calls and also denied the claim without looking at the bike.

I called customer service several times, have you done this yet?

At customer service I spoke to a rude and arrogant female who would not even let me speak, I thought I was in catholic school again being chastised by the nuns because I did something wrong.

She told me the mechanic told tech support that it was obvious that the valve hit the piston and knocked the carbon off.

I relayed this to the service manager who flipped out, he told me he was right there when the mechanic talked to tech support and no way did he say that, emphasizing to the support dip that there was no evidence of abuse.

The dealer made several calls and the bottom line offer with the service rep was

a.      HD would pay for the parts
b.      the dealer offered to split the cost of labor with me

So, approximately $200 in parts to HD, and $300 in labor split between me and the dealer.

I guess the dealer is trying to do the right thing here.

So, I have decided to “cut off my nose to spite my face” and refuse.

I am having the shop replace the rear piston, cylinder head, intake and exhaust valves and springs. I do not want the guide replaced.

I will probably cancel my extended warranty, have to review that first, but I see no reason to keep it. The main reason I purchased it was because of the engine, which will now forever have the SERT black mark on it.

HD has probably lost a customer. I just looked at the new Night Train last week and was seriously considering it as a second bike. Maybe this will be the push I need to assemble my own without the HD stuff.

[RJ749]

Part 2

Having worked at several dealerships that offered these services I never believed in them, voodoo stuff, mechanic in can etc. [highlight]Ever wonder why the manufacturers of the vehicles don’t offer their own systems?[/highlight]
The vehicles, our bikes included, are required by law to meet emissions standards for “X” amount of miles. Injectors clogging and or other issues, I believe you can’t be totally correct by these systems. There may be some credibility though.
Ever wonder that if a particle was small enough to get past the in tank fuel filter and large enough to clog an injector how would flushing it clean it out?
Did you know most in tank fuel filters (on the pick up tubes) are so fine that they do not allow water particle to pass through?

Last year the local refinery was down for cleaning and the guys that did it left some nasty solvent in the lines and the fuel that batched out in the first month was contaminated.  This caused undue failure of the injected systems in most cars using it.

Any dealer in the state that had the MOTORVAC system which most German and many US automakers now recommend/require for cleaning the fuel system/injectors was authorized by Phillips/Conoco to do a free system flush and drain out fuel.  This is a relatively expensive piece of equipment which most dealers felt was not needed.  This contamination event changed our minds.

We did hundreds on cars with stutters and misses etc. and caught virtually all off them before they got to an unrepairable state with just the full purge.

How MOTORVACS CarbonClean equipment Works:

MotorVac's 2-line cleaning system connects
to the engine through specific adapters, temporarily replacing the vehicle's fuel system.

During the first phase (with engine off) the system passes a powerful-yet-safe mixture of MotorVac MV3 detergent throughout the vehicles entire injection rail and fuel regulator. This removes deposits that build up in the air plenum, fuel rail, injector screens and the pressure regulator areas.During the second phase of the cleaning process (with the engine off) the system passes a powerful-yet safe mixture of MotorVac MV3 detergent throughout the vehicles.

[ace4059]

It will be a problem we live with, when in Colorado we got great mileage and someone there said they have no ethanol, talk about mileage and horsepower.  ARCO in Washington state mixes 10% I am told and the rest are less.

Proven fact is that the performance and mileage loss is about equivalent to the percentage of ethanol added.  So pay more in the long run for less performance.  I think I'll start running an additive like Techron, just for the security of preventing those build ups.

Here's just one site that is from Chevron with info on additives for personal use.

http://www.chevronlubricants.com/worldwide/northamerica/na_personalvehicles/na_chevron_personalvehicleapps/na_chev_fueladd/default.asp

On my last trip to Colorado, I got 52 mpg on one tank, and averaged in the upper 40's. This was in the mountains riding hard. I couldn't understand it but the gas theory makes sense.

[RJ749]

On my last trip to Colorado, I got 52 mpg on one tank, and averaged in the upper 40's. This was in the mountains riding hard. I couldn't understand it but the gas theory makes sense.

Ace, that's exactly what all of us were chatting about at CC, altitude and mileage, guess the FI works......oh well back to sea level and the reality of chitty gas in Washington State for now.

[grc]

..................................................Soapbox opinion here. 2 reasons why I stay away from Exxon. First, back in the late 70’s early 80’s when we had our first and second US sponsored oil shortages I worked for a very large Chrysler Corp dealer. Our drivability problems were horrendous, and it was mostly caused by all the fuel changes that were literally making the fuel systems fall apart.
Between the Dodge Aspen, Plymouth Volare and the fuel issues Chrysler Corp almost went under.

Any vehicle that had significant problems could almost always be linked back to Exxon fuel users. All one had to do was look inside the throttle body and see all the red dye stains and you knew we had to take the fuel system apart and maybe the head & valves.

The second reason I won’t use Exxon is their response to or rather lack of to the Exxon Valdez oil spill. Most people know there was a spill but have no idea as to how large, having nothing to compare it to. Years ago I went an oil spill cleanup seminar and there was an overly presented to us. This was graphic of the Valdez oil spill overlaid on top of a graphic of the east coast. This oil spill covered an area from Massachusetts to “North Carolina”

Duane,

I don't disagree - I remember the same issues back in the early 70's with Exxon fuel (service rep at the time), and the whole Valdez thing could be a training course on how not to handle a spill responsibly.  I didn't mean to plug Exxon with my post, just making an observation that different companies have different formulations, and there can be significant differences in how their fuels run in our unsophisticated EFI bikes.  I don't see the same differences in driveability from brand to brand in my cars, due to the more sophisticated EFI, but I do see the mileage differences.

Jerry

[grc]

Part 2
.....................................................................Having worked at several dealerships that offered these services I never believed in them, voodoo stuff, [highlight]mechanic in can [/highlight]etc. Ever wonder why the manufacturers of the vehicles don’t offer their own systems?

The vehicles, our bikes included, are required by law to meet emissions standards for “X” amount of miles. Injectors clogging and or other issues, I believe you can’t be totally correct by these systems. There may be some credibility though.
[highlight]Ever wonder that if a particle was small enough to get past the in tank fuel filter and large enough to clog an injector how would flushing it clean it out?[/highlight]Did you know most in tank fuel filters (on the pick up tubes) are so fine that they do not allow water particle to pass through?

Duane,

The type of "clogging" we see nowdays in injectors isn't due to particles, but is caused by varnish-like deposits left by the fuel itself.  In these cases, the additives the fuel supplier is supposed to be adding are there to eliminate this buildup in the fuel system, especially in the injectors and on the intake valves.  As you noted, the vehicle manufacturers have to warrant their vehicles to meet emissions standards for a specific number of years and miles, and they have incurred significant costs to repair clogged injectors over the years.  That caused them to do two things; design better, more clog resistant injectors, and press the fuel companies and the government to improve the fuel additive packages.  To give you an idea of just how serious the car folks take this, about 10 years ago the plant I work in actually started paying our fuel supplier extra to provide additional additives in the fuel.  Cars sitting on lots with the initial fill fuel were developing partial clogging problems before the customer ever got the car. With this type of "clogging", the "mechanic in a can" idea can be beneficial if it's done prior to major problems occurring.  Once injectors are severely clogged, however, the best approach is to remove them and clean them on bench equipment.  This way you can measure flow rates and actually observe the spray pattern.

Jerry

[VAZHOG]

Here is the word on my bike.

BTW did you know that it is almost impossible to talk to the people responsible for the decisions regarding your problems?

We have a dipchit tech support guy named Rich in Milwaukee who denied the claim saying I over revved the bike because of the SERT.

We have a service rep that refuses to answer my phone calls and also denied the claim without looking at the bike.

I called customer service several times, have you done this yet?

At customer service I spoke to a rude and arrogant female who would not even let me speak, I thought I was in catholic school again being chastised by the nuns because I did something wrong.

She told me the mechanic told tech support that it was obvious that the valve hit the piston and knocked the carbon off.

I relayed this to the service manager who flipped out, he told me he was right there when the mechanic talked to tech support and no way did he say that, emphasizing to the support dip that there was no evidence of abuse.

The dealer made several calls and the bottom line offer with the service rep was

a.      HD would pay for the parts
b.      the dealer offered to split the cost of labor with me

So, approximately $200 in parts to HD, and $300 in labor split between me and the dealer.

I guess the dealer is trying to do the right thing here.

So, I have decided to “cut off my nose to spite my face” and refuse.

I am having the shop replace the rear piston, cylinder head, intake and exhaust valves and springs. I do not want the guide replaced.

I will probably cancel my extended warranty, have to review that first, but I see no reason to keep it. The main reason I purchased it was because of the engine, which will now forever have the SERT black mark on it.

HD has probably lost a customer. I just looked at the new Night Train last week and was seriously considering it as a second bike. Maybe this will be the push I need to assemble my own without the HD stuff.

It seams like a fair offer to me and the dealer wants to work with you, I don't understand why you refused the offer after all the BS you took to get it?

Cancell the extended warrenty as you feel you are marked that I understand had a HD extended warrenty once and never used it.

Hope you get back on the road, Hey Why not take it to 110 While your in there anyway  [smiley=jalapeno.gif]

[grc]

It seams like a fair offer to me and the dealer wants to work with you, I don't understand why you refused the offer after all the BS you took to get it?

Cancell the extended warrenty as you feel you are marked that I understand had a HD extended warrenty once and never used it.

Hope you get back on the road, Hey Why not take it to 110 While your in there anyway  [smiley=jalapeno.gif]

VAZ,

It would be a fair offer if the bike was slightly out of warranty and they were offering to pick up part of the tab as a goodwill policy adjustment, but it isn't close to fair when it should be taken care of completely under warranty.  I fully understand porthole's feelings, since I would have turned it down also (and promptly filed a suit in small claims court).

I can't figure out how the SERT with the rev limit set at 6000 is grounds to void the warranty, but the Stage 1 download with the rev limit at 6200 isn't.  This whole episode just reinforces my feelings about the MoCo and their half-assed way of dealing with us.  

Jerry

[Puzzled]

I think the offer is fair. The dealer is attempting to work with you. The HD claims department is out of line here.

So are you declining the offer in order to look into legal action? If so I understand. If not, why not accept?

Not trying to hijack your thread here. In 00 HD claims denied a claim against my bike and "Voided" my warranty. Yep they sure did. How can they do this? Got me. I have the paperwork to support this. A little back round info. Since 00 was the first year for the B motor there wasn't a lot available at first. So I hit up a drag motor builder I know and he whipped up a stout little 95" 108 hp motor for me (not much by todays standards). I figured out how to get a 180 tire in there without cutting the frame. A local graphics guy did his magic on the bike all in time for Daytona. It's the second day of a nine day stay and I launch off of a light and snap the belt. At this point I have less than 2500 miles (I think) on the bike. I trailer it to Daytona HD where they promptly tell me my wide tire ate the belt. Hunh? I ate the bill as I had no tools and no choice. At that time I did not know about the MM act nor was I in a position to drop the coin for an attorney over a $600 bill. So a warranty is only as good as the company issuing it! Thus why I cut up brand new bikes with no regard to warranty or build my own. F the HD warranty. I wonder if Honda handles their warranty claims like this? Maybe I'll find out soon enough as the HD mystique no longer impresses me. In the belts defense I have a 124" with a belt and have yet to spit one out the back of the bike. As I step down.[smiley=soapbox.gif]

[porthole]

It seams like a fair offer to me and the dealer wants to work with you, I don't understand why you refused the offer after all the BS you took to get it?

A fair offer would have been;
"hey, we don't understand how this happened so we are going to replace the head and send it back to R&D to reverse engineer the failure, all under warranty".

Anything less then a complete repair under warranty is not acceptable.

[porthole]

I can't figure out how the SERT with the rev limit set at 6000 is grounds to void the warranty, but the Stage 1 download with the rev limit at 6200 isn't.  

Jerry

Exactly my point too.

[porthole]

I think the offer is fair. The dealer is attempting to work with you. The HD claims department is out of line here.

So are you declining the offer in order to look into legal action? If so I understand. If not, why not accept?

Fair is complete coverage under warranty.
I intend to pursue this further and want the parts in case I need the evidence.

The bottom line here for me is that it is not about the money, it is the principal.

Way back when I seem to recall my 1st HD, a POS AMF Sportster with a 90 day or 3000 mile warranty having a crank pin failure at 4500 miles. That sucked and cost a lot of money back then (1975).

[Puzzled]

Fair is complete coverage under warranty.
I intend to pursue this further and want the parts in case I need the evidence.

The bottom line here for me is that it is not about the money, it is the principal.

I understand completely.

I had an "issue" recently with a big name springer builder and a front end failure. The attorney I use told me to just eat it as the cost of fighting it over principal will cost me way more than I'd win, if I were to win.

[Unbalanced]

Here are the questions that should make them go hrmm.

1st the download from harley sets the rev limiter to 6200 you were only at 6000.

2nd the piston never touched the valve as noted by the dealership.   if the piston didnt hit the valve then it must of been the cracked guide.  

3rd I would call Rusty in Customer Service and speak to him.   He is the manager over all of customer service and is pretty reasonable.   He will call you back.

The dealership making the offer to pay half the labor I would rather myself tell them to stick it in their ass as the issue is now half their fault, because they didnt clear up the erronious information that was supposedly never given to MOCO.    

I Personally would do as you are and replace the head, pistons, have the cylinders honed since I am in there and have them order 10 over rings and forged pistons that are 10 over to match.   Ideal time if your not caring about money or warranty to have the heads done

just my 2 cents ...

-harry