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[mayor]

it's not hard to reach 80 kPa, it's just hard to stay there.  The problem is there just isn't much room for error.  You have either too light of load, or too great of load.  You almost need a cheater screen to do it, without having to rerun through the area multiple times. 

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Bob, have YOU ever street tuned with v-tune, like on a trike?  Are you speaking from experience?  Because sure as chit, v-tune does NOT do as well on the street as it does with a wheel, on the very low rpm stuff.

You ain't SWEEPING anything to get good data down low.  Or the data can end up not helping.  One needs ACCELERATION data, like on a brake and not sit in neutral data or decel data.  You make it sound as if one can tune TTS without a brake at all.

I think both Mayor and I have quite a decent amount of TTS street tuning experience, and I can say without ANY doubt, the wheel NEEDS to come into play for under 2k data runs.  Sure, one CAN collect data and all of that, but with how things are... what data IS that?  What part of the over 100 hidden tables are we collecting?  Most of us, nowadays, KNOW that there are separate tables for timing and probably VEs for EACH gear.  We just cannot access those tables.  Some guys want a 'finisher' on their TTS tune.  Surely YOU have run into this... ya know the 80+kpa stuff.  I also believe the under 2k stuff also needs looked at in that scenario.

My 120r is 100% improved by v-tuning the areas UNDER 2k rpm.  Whole new bike, after v-tuning under 2k with a dyno....., and, yes, I had a power port for the laptop for hours worth of data, I had west virginia hills and COULD hit high MAP a bit, WITH a monitor.  It is just NOT the same.

Again, this is just what I am finding on the paltry few bikes I have been tuning.  TPS and Lambda, act the same, to me.  It IS a 'rideabilty' thing.  Most of us, while riding WILL fall under 2k while riding.  My 120r, for example would NOT under any circumstances pull out from 1500 rpm in high gear after bunches of street v-tunes.  Figured it was the nature of the beast kind of thing.  Some of these issues can be 'lived' with quite easily.  NOT a big deal, in my book, Bob.   

I had to alter the VEs to get things a LOT closer, while on the wheel, I had to sneak up on the data, to pull things in nice and smooth, as the bike really started bucking when I got to lower rpms, like 1250.  And... I DO remember that all cells interact with each other, so to get 1500 rpms doing nice, I simply HAD to get 1250 decent, too.  but that TPS bike now can do that without ANY drama.  Just goes.  No snorting popping bucking, etc.  Just sayin.

[SBB]

Started by FLTRI - Last post by hrdtail78
Quote from: Buckeye_Tuning on Yesterday at 04:13:21 PM
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/14592890/beigez-movie

Cowards.  Stupid kid stuff.  I wouldn't bother even posting it, or watching it.

I started to watch it but realized how accurate the above post was!

 

SBB

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I posted it to show TWO things.  One is there are two sides, basically to tuning our bikes.  That is proponents of closed loop tuning and using the various 'tools' needed to make closed loop tunes work.  There are also antis to closed loop tuning and they have there ways and methods.  Sometimes open loop is really truly necessary and anyone that says different is incorrect.  But...  it is MY personal belief, that most bikes CAN be tuned with a portion of closed loop... say in the cruise areas, and enjoy the benefits of closed loop, and still run GREAT.

I, me, tend to go with the closed loop camp.  I am 'stuck' up Steve's bung hole, etc.  That IS fine, BTW.  I am VERY vocal about sticking with what an OP says, too.

The second reason I posted, is it was thought that this move would somehow 'discredit' me and Steve.  I do NOT see that happening, so I took it as a humorous personal attack to show what I, me, sometimes get up against.  Somehow, somewhere.....  I MUST have pissed not only someone off, but pissed in their Wheaties on how I feel 95% of our bikes can be tuned with a portion of the tune in closed loop.

To all members, I am GOOD with this, and also GOOD with the dude that made it.

ANd... yes... I AM starting off slow AND careful.  These are folk's bikes and for sure I want them to run GREAT, but more importly, I want them to ALWAYS run a LOT better when they leave, as opposed to when they come in.  I use a tool I fully understand, I have my friends that tune, help me whenever I get stuck (ALL tuners do this BTW), I give a 100% money back guarantee, not many questions asked, too.  So....  EVERYONE has to start somewhere with whatever it is they do.  I install machinery and program those machines.  Nothing fancy, but still.....  I really have ended up LIKING tuning... and that combined with the fact that I REALLY like my fellow members?  Welll....  YOU guys decide as time goes on, OK?

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Saturday, I have a Lambda bike stopping by.

[mayor]

have a good time with it.     I think the lambda bikes are easier to tune.  The VE's just seem to fall in line much better.

[Max Headflow]

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/14592890/beigez-movie

 

Max

[FLTRI]

not necessarily.  I have used 5th and 6th to reach those areas, and I still had some issues without the help of hills.  The more tq your engine has, the harder it is to get to 80 kPa without excelerating right through that area too quickly. The other issue is the amount of throttle between 80 kPa and excess of 83 kPa is not a lot, so without a monitor...it's tough to get just the right amount of throttle.  Getting the below 1,500 rpm ranges at the heavier MAP ranges on the street is also quite a chore, even with a monitor.   

Have you tried using both front and rear brakes simultaneously to control speed?

Gotta be going straight but it really helps once you get the frt/rr bias figured out.

I start with the rear and add in the front as the bike starts to go faster than I want.

It's not a pretty sight but if I've found if I do a little at a time, hits will eventually add up cell by cell by allowing the bike to increase speed slowly.

That said, I've found cable bikes much easier to sweep tune on the street because I could pick and hold specific TP whereas the lambda bikes are very difficult to maintain same KPA during sweeps.

Bob

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Max

Et Tu brutass?

[joe_lyons50023]

So I am guessing that this discussion was put to bed b/c it dosent show repeatability.  Just the fact that it shows a number.  When I viewed my sensor voltages on the road it ranged from 1680-1760 from 2500-5000 and the graph on the dyno dosent show the same correlation as mayors information.  If i get a chance I will test this on the dyno with my bike and have better direct information and show the Dyno AFR on the same graph as the NB voltages.

[Max Headflow]

Et Tu brutass?

Et Tu!!

Coyote and Tweekmytwin gave me 4 bucks to do it..

Max

[Steve Cole]

What part of Mayors runs do you not understand? The Narrow Band O2 data repeats as good if not better than the broad Band did. Looks like your data is all over the place so the tuning would be suspect to start with.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Et Tu!!

Coyote and Tweekmytwin gave me 4 bucks to do it..

Max

Cool, get the money from Tweekmytwin

[hrdtail78]

So I am guessing that this discussion was put to bed b/c it dosent show repeatability.  Just the fact that it shows a number.  When I viewed my sensor voltages on the road it ranged from 1680-1760 from 2500-5000 and the graph on the dyno dosent show the same correlation as mayors information.  If i get a chance I will test this on the dyno with my bike and have better direct information and show the Dyno AFR on the same graph as the NB voltages.

A couple of things to consider here.  

1. Position.  The stock sensor is set up to read every firing cycle at the same engine position, every time.  For argument sake.  Lets put that position at 34 degrees of crank angle on power stroke.  What is the position that the broadband is sampled at?  Either DJ, wego, at100...?  How does it know crank position or does it care?  Or is the big concern of that sensor to read 5 times a second.  I have never seen anything in winpep that allows me to change this.  I do have control with wego III.  So now we are sampling.  Broad bands can be sampling at 34 of crank angle, could be sampling at 34 of intake stroke, could be sampling during compression stroke.

2. Frequency.  Take a basic WOT pull from 2000 to 6000.  Nice built engine that can do this in 5th in 5 seconds.  If we average to 4000 rpm at 33.3 engine firing events per second.  That's 166.5 firing events the stock sensors are seeing.  We set up the wego (because I know that one) at a sampling rate of .2.  That's 5 a second and 25 for the 5 second WOT.  What do we do about the 141.5 events that we missed?  Filter, average?  Anybody....?  

Hey Max.

[Steve Cole]

Those are some of the things that cause broad band system to have issues. I have never been able to find an engineering level specification that clearly states what the Broad Band sensor response time is. If someone else has the paperwork that clearly shows it I would love to get a copy of said paperwork. The best I have been able to get in verbal statements from people at Bosch is about 300 mS. So that means it takes .3 seconds for the sensor to give a reading of the exhaust that was passing by it. So at an engine speed of 1000 RPM the Broad Band Sensor cannot sample quick enough and doesnot have a response time quick enough to pickup what is happen each time the cylinder fires. You are missing about 30% of the exhaust events and as the engine speed rises above 1000 RPM idle speed it just gets worse. At 5000 RPM you are missing about 82% of the exhaust events!

So what happen if the gas is changing during that .3 second? What's the reading going to be? It will be some average of what went by as that is all it can be. So what this has done it to create a filter of the real numbers before you ever get started, then there is the unknown as to the filtering that the electronics is doing too. When your in a steady state condition you assume that the exhaust gas is the same during the time and you need to stay there long enough for it to settle out. The number for response time for 4 and 5 gas machine is up in the 3 second range so as you can see the Broad Band will respond much quicker than a 4 or 5 Gas machine but both are way to slow for a WOT run on and engine. The best you are getting is a trend of what is really happening. The real numbers are lost due to the sensor limits. Narrow band have response time in the 100 - 150 mS range based on there age and use. So they too have limits but they just happen to be better than the others. With the ECM in control and locking the sample time to the correct spot each and every time you should be able to begin to understand why they have advantages over the others.

Look, none of these are the correct solution to really know what's going on for sure but if you can agree that one is good enough then you have to also agree that the one that reads quicker is also good enough. Mayor's data clearly and completely shows that the Narrow Bands showed a trend that was the same as the Broad bands measured at the same time. When the Broad band said it changed richer so do the Narrow Band sensor. With that in mind one just needs to understand the Narrow Band data, to be able to do a good WOT tune. Sure you can put it on the dyno and improve it, but for most, you ride your bikes in the idle to 4500 RPM and the throttle position from 0 - 40%, 95% of the time. So are you really going to feel any difference? There is no substitute for someone who knows what they are doing but there is also plenty if DIY people that can and have tuned there bikes to a point they are more than happy with it. If you do not have the time or want to do it run it over and pay someone. If you have an odd combination the dyno is a good tool to help you get there quicker. It's all up to what you want out of your bike.