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Author Topic: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory  (Read 13469 times)

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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« on: September 11, 2007, 12:46:06 PM »

Thought I would take some time and update my friends on the latest out of Milwalkee ...according to the MoCo. there will be a severe reduction in shipments of all 2008 Harley's for the rest of 2007. We as dealers have been given a couple of reasons why but I will not elaberate on here however surfice it to say you can bet your family jewels there WILL be a shortage of bikes the rest of the year and specally CVO's ...so guy's you can take it for what its worth ..if you can find a CVO you want at a reasonable price I suggest you jump on it ...otherwise ..well ...lets just say you can always buy a used one or a Goldwing

Bubba
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2007, 12:50:38 PM »

Thought I would take some time and update my friends on the latest out of Milwalkee ...according to the MoCo. there will be a severe reduction in shipments of all 2008 Harley's for the rest of 2007. We as dealers have been given a couple of reasons why but I will not elaberate on here however surfice it to say you can bet your family jewels there WILL be a shortage of bikes the rest of the year and specally CVO's ...so guy's you can take it for what its worth ..if you can find a CVO you want at a reasonable price I suggest you jump on it ...otherwise ..well ...lets just say you can always buy a used one or a Goldwing

Bubba


Bubba....have you guys got a lot of 07's still on the floor?  The dealers here do...
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2007, 12:56:02 PM »

TC we  have a number of 07s on the floor but by neccessity ...we sold 108 bikes in July ...93 in August ..that depleated our new bike inventory ...I have had to buy left over 07 bikes just to have SOMETHING to sell ...I bought 6 07 Ultras last week out of Chicago and already sold 4 ... because of the cut back on 08 inventory I will have to make it work mostly on 07 and used bikes .... it sux !

Bubba
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2007, 12:58:09 PM »

TC we  have a number of 07s on the floor but by neccessity ...we sold 108 bikes in July ...93 in August ..that depleated our new bike inventory ...I have had to buy left over 07 bikes just to have SOMETHING to sell ...I bought 6 07 Ultras last week out of Chicago and already sold 4 ... because of the cut back on 08 inventory I will have to make it work mostly on 07 and used bikes .... it sux !

Bubba


Suck it may.  But for the potential customers too.  And in ways even more so.  Because you know there will be dealers who use the excuse to jack prices up; way up.
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deucedog

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2007, 01:00:11 PM »


Suck it may.  But for the potential customers too.  And in ways even more so.  Because you know there will be dealers who use the excuse to jack prices up; way up.

You are correct, this is exactly the type of propaganda the dealers live for.  Now Harley's will be "hard to get".  Give me a break...
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2007, 01:18:49 PM »

TC we  have a number of 07s on the floor but by neccessity ...we sold 108 bikes in July ...93 in August ..that depleated our new bike inventory ...I have had to buy left over 07 bikes just to have SOMETHING to sell ...I bought 6 07 Ultras last week out of Chicago and already sold 4 ... because of the cut back on 08 inventory I will have to make it work mostly on 07 and used bikes .... it sux !

Bubba

Man...that is a lot of bikes for a store the size of yours!!  How is the work coming on the new "Theme" store?
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2007, 03:15:16 PM »

You are correct, this is exactly the type of propaganda the dealers live for.  Now Harley's will be "hard to get".  Give me a break...

Absolutely.  THey are only cutting6-8% of 350,000.  When there were shortages, production was under 200,000.  Manufactured shortages, they are very smart. 
Now if the R&D department had the same budget as the marketing department, my SERK would me in my garage, not all apart at the dealership.

Yup, I have an attitude.  I have not bought anything HD since I discovered the two leaks.  Not a dime.

I hope there is a shortage, perceived or real, then I can unload mine.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2007, 03:21:22 PM »

Why wont you elaborate here? I personally would like to know. Does it have anything to do with the engine program?
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2007, 03:44:25 PM »

Doubt it has anything to do with the 110 engine problems.  Remember roughly 90% of the motorcycles produced by the MoCo have the 96 ci engine in it, so the 110 problem is miniscule, in comparisson.  It's simple business.  There were way too many 07's left on the showroom floors when the 08's were introduced.  They, the MoCo, will put out the word that they are reducing production, which will drive up demand, because there now will be a perceived shortage of new HD motorcycles, which will play right into the hands of the already price-gouging dealers out there.  Simple bottom line business.

Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
  :devil:
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2007, 04:04:39 PM »

Some of this issue is realated to the whole sub-prime thing.  Most HD buyers get financed through HD, and it was pretty easy to get financing, regardless of credit history.  Now people can't make their payments, bikes are being repoed, more used bikes on the market, prices are driven down.  Stock tanks for a while.  During the time of shortages of available HD bikes, we were enjoying some of the best economic times in a LONG while.  Expendable income = demand for "luxury" items like motorcycles.  If you can't make your new housepayment because you bought more house than you could afford 3 years ago on an variable rate mortgage, you ain't gonna be buying a new bike.  It's a buyer's market out there right now on used HD bikes, no matter the model.  This has got nothing to do with the CVO 110 engine...it's just what HD must do to prop everything up 'till all this passes.
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2007, 04:13:08 PM »

From what I have been told " there is a component problem with a vender" ...now to be honest I am not totally sure just what that means ..and they will not tell us what "component or vender" ..... like I said fellas take it for what its worth ...all I am trying to do is be informitive for my friends on here ...I do have a question to some of the guy's on  here who are always belly aching about the prices of the new bikes ...whats the difference between a dealer who makes a large investement in a product and trys to get a maximum return on his money AND a guy who buys a new bike but when hes ready to sell or trade it wanting to get the maximum value back for it ...seems to me to be the same intention ....Im  just curious on this end ...enlightn me...just like someone said "I hope there is a shortage on inventory so they get hard to find and I can sell mine" ....why not sell it now? ...Im sure its because you want it to bring as much as it can and I can't blame you..and I am SURE you will tell the prospective buyer about your two oil leaks BEFORE he buy's it ...

Bubba
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 06:37:18 PM by KentuckyHarleyDude »
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2007, 04:21:45 PM »

Man...that is a lot of bikes for a store the size of yours!!  How is the work coming on the new "Theme" store?

LOL TC ...we are now under construction but it looks like it will be March of 2008 before we get to move in ...a number of issues but one of the big problems has been a wet lands issue ...hopefully we are past that now ...we have sold 155 more bikes this year then they did last year so yep business has been good ...come on in boy's the waters fine  :2vrolijk_21:

Bubba
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2007, 04:47:06 PM »

From what I have been told " there is a component problem with a vender" ...now to be honest I am not totally sure just what that means ..and they will not tell us what "component or vender" ..... like I said fellas take it for what its worth ...all I am trying to do is be informitive for my friends on here ...I do have a question to some of the guy's on  here who are always belly aching about the prices of the new bikes ...whats the difference between a dealer who makes a large investement in a product and trys to get a maximum return on his money AND a guy who buys a new bike but when hes ready to sell or trade it wanting to get the maximum value back for it ...seems to me to be the same intention ....Im  just curious on this end ...enlightn me...just like someone said "I hope there is a shotage on inventory so they get hard to find and I can sell mine" ....why not sell it now? ...Im sure its because you want it to bring as much as it can and I can't blame you..and I am SURE you will tell the prospective buyer about your two oil leaks BEFORE he buy's it ...

Bubba

I will, do you?  Don't you check VIN # on trade ins?
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2007, 04:58:29 PM »

From what I have been told " there is a component problem with a vender" ...now to be honest I am not totally sure just what that means ..and they will not tell us what "component or vender" ..... like I said fellas take it for what its worth ...all I am trying to do is be informitive for my friends on here ...I do have a question to some of the guy's on  here who are always belly aching about the prices of the new bikes ...whats the difference between a dealer who makes a large investement in a product and trys to get a maximum return on his money AND a guy who buys a new bike but when hes ready to sell or trade it wanting to get the maximum value back for it ...seems to me to be the same intention ....Im  just curious on this end ...enlightn me...just like someone said "I hope there is a shotage on inventory so they get hard to find and I can sell mine" ....why not sell it now? ...Im sure its because you want it to bring as much as it can and I can't blame you..and I am SURE you will tell the prospective buyer about your two oil leaks BEFORE he buy's it ...

Bubba

Now this bait you just threw out was it power bait, worms or a dry fly. 
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2007, 05:25:33 PM »

Now this bait you just threw out was it power bait, worms or a dry fly. 


LOL.  And I bit!  Doh!
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deucedog

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2007, 05:59:03 PM »

I do have a question to some of the guy's on  here who are always belly aching about the prices of the new bikes ...whats the difference between a dealer who makes a large investement in a product and trys to get a maximum return on his money AND a guy who buys a new bike but when hes ready to sell or trade it wanting to get the maximum value back for it ...seems to me to be the same intention ....Im  just curious on this end ...enlightn me...just like someone said "I hope there is a shotage on inventory so they get hard to find and I can sell mine" ....why not sell it now? ...Im sure its because you want it to bring as much as it can and I can't blame you..and I am SURE you will tell the prospective buyer about your two oil leaks BEFORE he buy's it ...

Bubba

Bubba, I am sure your intentions are good, but frankly, many of us are just plain tired of the all games.  Too many bikes, now shortages and not enough bikes, over MSRP, added Chrome to pad the prices, mechanical issues, over heating, etc. It just seems like one darn thing after another and we're all burning out (sorry for the pun).  And worse, these are the most expensive bikes around at $30-40K per copy. 

How much Kool-Aid are we supposed to keep drinking?  I like the bikes, the chit-chat and the whole Harley experience just like the next guy, but it's really time that MoCo gets these bikes running properly and thinks of the buyer first.  A little customer focus will go a long way.  That's all we're asking for.

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CVOJOE

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2007, 06:14:19 PM »

Quote
There were way too many 07's left on the showroom floors when the 08's were introduced.  They, the MoCo, will put out the word that they are reducing production, which will drive up demand, because there now will be a perceived shortage of new HD motorcycles, which will play right into the hands of the already price-gouging dealers out there.  Simple bottom line business.


Business 101 to be sure, but not a healthy way to run a business IMHO.  :nixweiss:
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2007, 06:44:00 PM »

Now this bait you just threw out was it power bait, worms or a dry fly. 


LOL ROAR ..... I just call'em like I see'em ..... kinda like the old saying "if the shoe fits"

Bubba
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2007, 06:48:48 PM »



Business 101 to be sure, but not a healthy way to run a business IMHO.  :nixweiss:

Define "healthy" ...I cant imagine many companys being anymore "healthy" then Harley-Davidson  :nixweiss:

Bubba
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2007, 07:03:44 PM »

I got mine, I like mine a lot, I'm gonna keep mine, prices go up, inventory goes down, prices go up higher. I got mine.
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Rides2007Harley

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2007, 07:47:19 PM »

Harley-Davidson is not any different than any other stock owned company, it is all about profits and losses.  Sure they want to keep their customers happy just like Dell, GM or Nabisco but bottom line is the bottom line.  If there is excessive inventory you cut back production, simple economics.

They preach family and all that other crap but in the end you are buying a product they supply and if you don't feel the product is worth the asking price simply walk away.  Hopefully others will feel the same way you do and if that happens the supply will exceed the demand and changes will occur or the price will drop.  In the last 15 years if a person has walked away some new person has stepped in.  Will that trend continue, I believe so.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2007, 09:09:27 PM »

Bubba,
I have a hard time feeling sorry for the dealerships.  When you stated that you gotta feed the family, that reminded me of the pro basketball player that demanded he get paid more than $12 Million a year cuz he had a wife and family to feed.  I understand dealerships have overhead and such, but let's face it, you turn a tidy profit on the motorcycles, just by selling at MSRP.  (What is it 18%?)  And how about motorclothes and accessories.  I'm sure there's a real healthy profit in that area.  So it's kind of hard to feel sorry.   :P  But I do appreciate you sharing some of the info that you got from the MoCo. 
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2007, 09:10:11 PM »

I got mine, I like mine a lot, I'm gonna keep mine, prices go up, inventory goes down, prices go up higher. I got mine.

I'm with Screamin..  The MOCO hasn't made a bike in the last 3 years that I would sell/trade for.  I hate hearing the 06 paint problems and the 07-08 110 problems and hope you guys get the problems worked out.  I wouldn't go thru the hassell.
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2007, 09:32:10 PM »

Bubba,
I have a hard time feeling sorry for the dealerships.  When you stated that you gotta feed the family, that reminded me of the pro basketball player that demanded he get paid more than $12 Million a year cuz he had a wife and family to feed.  I understand dealerships have overhead and such, but let's face it, you turn a tidy profit on the motorcycles, just by selling at MSRP.  (What is it 18%?)  And how about motorclothes and accessories.  I'm sure there's a real healthy profit in that area.  So it's kind of hard to feel sorry.   :P  But I do appreciate you sharing some of the info that you got from the MoCo. 
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
  :devil:

RD with all due respect weather it is 18% or 80% its guys like you that continue to pay the price ...you fuel the fire ..for whatever reason we keep building them and you keep buying them ..generally when that continues to happen its because the customer feels he is getting the value for the money he is spending ...you talk about mark up ....we have more profit margin on CVOs then any other bike BUT you continue to buy them ..WHY? As for having a hard time feeling sorry for the dealer I am sure the guy who cut your lawn today or washed your car doesnt feel sorry for you when he sees that CVO sitting in your drive way ... My point is that the dealer nor the MoCo holds a shotgun on you to buy their product ...you make that decesion on your own ...remember when you point a finger at the dealer or MoCo you have 3 pointing right back at you ... I know we have some quality control problems right now but not as much as when AMF owned the company ..and a lot of the problems are due to EPA ....now I understand thats no concellation but the truth is the truth ...the great thing about it is you can either wait to buy one when you feel the bugs are worked out ..or you can ride what you have ..or switch brands ..its YOUR money ... when I say YOU RD I do not mean YOU directly ..its a general term ...with all due respect.

Bubba
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 09:43:18 PM by KentuckyHarleyDude »
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2007, 09:39:09 PM »

RD with all due respect wether it is 18% or 80% its guys like you that continue to pay the price ...you fuel the fire ..for whatever reason we keep building them and you keep buying them ..generally when that contiues to happen its because the customer feels he is getting the value for the money he is spending ...you talk about mark up ....we have more profit marging on CVOs then any other bike BUT you continue to buy them ..WHY? As for having a hard time feeling sorry for the dealer I am sure the guy who cut your lawn today or washed your car doesnt feel sorry for you when he sees that CVO sitting in your drive way ... My point is that the dealer nor the MoCo holds a shotgun on you to buy their product ...you make that decesion on your own ...remember when you point a finger at the dealer or MoCo you have 3 pointing right back at you ...with all due respect.

Bubba


Damn Bubba!
Now that's a good post.
It's a real shame your post is so accurate.
But I appreciate you calling it like it is!

S
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2007, 09:44:55 PM »

RD with all due respect weather it is 18% or 80% its guys like you that continue to pay the price ...you fuel the fire ..for whatever reason we keep building them and you keep buying them ..generally when that continues to happen its because the customer feels he is getting the value for the money he is spending ...you talk about mark up ....we have more profit margin on CVOs then any other bike BUT you continue to buy them ..WHY? As for having a hard time feeling sorry for the dealer I am sure the guy who cut your lawn today or washed your car doesnt feel sorry for you when he sees that CVO sitting in your drive way ... My point is that the dealer nor the MoCo holds a shotgun on you to buy their product ...you make that decesion on your own ...remember when you point a finger at the dealer or MoCo you have 3 pointing right back at you ... I know we have some quality control problems right now but not as much as when AMF owned the company ..and a lot of the problems are die to EPA ....now I understand thats no concellation but the truth is the truth ...the great thing about it is you can either wait to buy one when you feel the bugs are worked out ..or you can ride what you have ..or switch brands ..its YOUR money ... when I say YOU RD I do not mean YOU i directly ..its a general term ...with all due respect.

Bubba

Good post Bubba. That's what makes this country so great. We have choices. My only problem is the way the MoCo breaks our b@lls about fixing the things they can't, and then holding that against us. I love my HD. Wouldn't ride anything else. Love hanging out at a good dealer's shop. But not too thrilled with the MoCo these days. Neither are most employees I talk to either! ;)

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2007, 09:56:25 PM »

Good post Bubba. That's what makes this country so great. We have choices. My only problem is the way the MoCo breaks our b@lls about fixing the things they can't, and then holding that against us. I love my HD. Wouldn't ride anything else. Love hanging out at a good dealer's shop. But not too thrilled with the MoCo these days. Neither are most employees I talk to either! ;)
Hoist! 8)


Hoist

I have to ask you about that one.

You talking about H/D employees proper or employees of a dealership selling H/D's?
 :nixweiss:
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2007, 09:58:29 PM »


Hoist

I have to ask you about that one.

You talking about H/D employees proper or employees of a dealership selling H/D's?
 :nixweiss:

I don't know many HD factory guys. I'm specifically talking about dealer employees. They're as frustrated as we are! ;)

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2007, 10:01:08 PM »

HOIST TO BE HONEST ...BEING ON THE RETAIL END OF THE COMPANY I AM A LITTLE MIFFED AT THE MOCO MYSELF ...I HAVE VERY LITTLE PRODUCT TO SELL ...I AM UMINFORMED AS TO WHY WE ARE NOT RECEIVING MORE PRODUCT ...AND BECAUSE I AM UNINFORMED IT MAKE ME LOOK INCOMPETENT TO OUR CUSTOMERS .... BUT YOU KNOW WHAT ..WHEN YOU TAKE EVERYTHING IN PERSPECTIVE IT BEATS LAYING ASPHALT ... I KNOW THAT IT GETS FRUSTRATING TRYING TO GET SOME WARRANTY ISSUES TAKEN CARE OF BUT I CAN ASSURE THAT IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE DEALER IN MOST CASES BUT THE MOCO ...I HAVE TO FIGHT WITH THEM EVERYDAY ...BUT THEN THERE ARE TIMES WHEN THEY WARRANTY SOMETHING THAT I NEVER THOUGHT THEY WOULD ...GUESS ITS JUST THE "HUMAN" FACTOR ....

BUBBA

« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 10:03:15 PM by KentuckyHarleyDude »
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2007, 10:05:31 PM »

HOIST TO BE HONEST ...BEING ON THE RETAIL END OF THE COMPANY I AM A LITTLE MIFFED AT THE MOCO MYSELF ...I HAVE VERY LITTLE PRODUCT TO SELL ...I AM UMINFORMED AS TO WHY WE ARE NOT RECEIVING MORE PRODUCT ...AND BECAUSE I AM UNINFORMED IT MAKE ME LOOK INCOMPETENT TO OUR CUSTOMERS .... BUT YOU KNOW WHAT ..WHEN YOU TAKE EVERYTHING IN PERSPECTIVE IT BEATS LAYING ASPHALT ... I KNOW THAT IT GETS FRUSTRATING TRYING TO GET SOME WARRANTY ISSUES TAKEN CARE OF BUT I CAN ASSURE THAT IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE DEALER IN MOST CASES BUT THE MOCO ...I HAVE TO FIGHT WITH THEM EVERYDAY ...BUT THEN TERE ARE TIMES WHEN THEY WARRANTY SOMETHING THAT I NEVER THOUGHT THEY WOULD ...GUESS UTS JUST THE "HUMAN" FACTOR ....

BUBBA



I agree 100% Bubba! My dealer goes out of his way to help me. He can't believe all the problems we see on these things. And the MoCo doesn't tell them, or admit to these problems either. He calls me to find out a problem because he knows we have a better handle on it than they do.

I'm so fortunate I found this Forum. It allows me to have a excellent relationship with my dealer because he knows I'm rarely wrong about something and have become a valuable resource to him! This site rules!!! :2vrolijk_21:

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2007, 10:13:24 PM »

Bubba, I am sure your intentions are good, but frankly, many of us are just plain tired of the all games.  Too many bikes, now shortages and not enough bikes, over MSRP, added Chrome to pad the prices, mechanical issues, over heating, etc. It just seems like one darn thing after another and we're all burning out (sorry for the pun).  And worse, these are the most expensive bikes around at $30-40K per copy. 

How much Kool-Aid are we supposed to keep drinking?  I like the bikes, the chit-chat and the whole Harley experience just like the next guy, but it's really time that MoCo gets these bikes running properly and thinks of the buyer first.  A little customer focus will go a long way.  That's all we're asking for.



YOU KNOW IT GENERALLY TAKES TWO TO 'PLAY A GAME" THE DEALER AND YOU .... IF I WERE YOU I WOULD NOT DRINK ANYMORE "KOOL-AID" THEN I WANTED TO DRINK ..YOU HAVE THE CHOICE TO CONTINUE TO DRINK KOOL-AID OR SWITCH TO COKE AND IF YOU DON'T SWITCH.. THEN WHO IS TO BLAME THEN?

BUBBA
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2007, 10:15:14 PM »

Bubba,
I have a hard time feeling sorry for the dealerships.  When you stated that you gotta feed the family, that reminded me of the pro basketball player that demanded he get paid more than $12 Million a year cuz he had a wife and family to feed.  I understand dealerships have overhead and such, but let's face it, you turn a tidy profit on the motorcycles, just by selling at MSRP.  (What is it 18%?)  And how about motorclothes and accessories.  I'm sure there's a real healthy profit in that area.  So it's kind of hard to feel sorry.   :P  But I do appreciate you sharing some of the info that you got from the MoCo. 
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
  :devil:
Exactly!!! I can't eat filet mignon every night. There is a big difference in making a living/providing for your family, and charging high prices just because some people will pay it to me is just taking advantage. It's no more better then the criminal out in the street doing strong arm robbery just because he has a gun/weapon and the victim doesn't. JMHO.

In regards to getting a fair price for my bike I don't expect to get penny for penny that I've put in it, but on the other hand I don't expect to trade it in and some dealer just put it back on the floor and mark it up just because it's on his floor. I say that only because I know the condition of my bike and know that it wouldn't need anything done to it to place it on a dealerships floor. I can clean/detail better then most people they have at dealerships, and I have my bike serviced on time by a H-D certified mechanic at a dealer and have the paperwork to back it up. When something needs repairing it gets done immediately.

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2007, 10:21:21 PM »

I don't know many HD factory guys. I'm specifically talking about dealer employees. They're as frustrated as we are! ;)

Hoist! 8)

Hoist

Frustrated? Frustrated about what?

Money? How is that the MOCO's problem. If they feel they are worth more then they need to go somewhere else to get it! :nixweiss:

Lack of product to sell? Look at KHD, can't blame him for not having product to sell. But can you blame H/D, the economy is slowing and they are doing what all smart corps are doing.

Lack of customer support? Bingo! But go back to KHD's post about "us" buying regardless.

So what do you suggest?

 :nixweiss:
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2007, 10:24:56 PM »

Hoist

Frustrated? Frustrated about what?

Money? How is that the MOCO's problem. If they feel they are worth more then they need to go somewhere else to get it! :nixweiss:

Lack of product to sell? Look at KHD, can't blame him for not having product to sell. But can you blame H/D, the economy is slowing and they are doing what all smart corps are doing.

Lack of customer support? Bingo! But go back to KHD's post about "us" buying regardless.

So what do you suggest?

 :nixweiss:

Frustrated with the lack of info. Frustrated with the "bury their heads in the sand" approach. Frustrated with accountant engineered components insread of properly engineered components. Frustrated with even the dealer not having anyone to talk to because of voice mail. Frustrated with them not returning dealer's calls. Do you want the full list? I think you get my point! ;)

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2007, 10:25:58 PM »

I am not concerned about the price of the bike. I work two jobs to afford my toys. The good news about high prices is that not everyone can afford what I ride. If a Harley CVO of any kind was 10 grand it wouldn't be special. Every 18 year old kid would have one. The bad thing is , at least in my case, the dealers. My soon to have SERK will be my forth Harley in three years. This last one almost sent me to Honda!!! If the dealer schedules your bike for service two weeks out with a blank sched. promises it will begin on that day then doesn't put the bike on the lift for the first time until 5 days later, that is unacceptable!!! No all the parts needed were in house. This kind of blatant lying and deception is uncalled for. The entire deal from start to finish with 3 added on service visits was no better and sometimes worse. At least that dealer will no longer get my money!!!!!!! I went across a couple of towns and am now awaiting my new SERK from another dealer @ msrp.  Treat us with respect, don't B.S. us and it will be returned with our loyalty and our MONEY!!!!! :soapbox
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2007, 10:34:45 PM »

Exactly!!! I can't eat filet mignon every night. There is a big difference in making a living/providing for your family, and charging high prices just because some people will pay it to me is just taking advantage. It's no more better then the criminal out in the street doing strong arm robbery just because he has a gun/weapon and the victim doesn't. JMHO.

In regards to getting a fair price for my bike I don't expect to get penny for penny that I've put in it, but on the other hand I don't expect to trade it in and some dealer just put it back on the floor and mark it up just because it's on his floor. I say that only because I know the condition of my bike and know that it wouldn't need anything done to it to place it on a dealerships floor. I can clean/detail better then most people they have at dealerships, and I have my bike serviced on time by a H-D certified mechanic at a dealer and have the paperwork to back it up. When something needs repairing it gets done immediately.

 :pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 :fireman:



dOOD IF ONLY WE LIVED IN A PERFECT WORLD .... LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION ...WOULD YOU SELL YOUR BIKE FOR $2500.00 LESS THEN WHAT YOU KNOW IT WILL BRING ..THIS IS A YES OR NO QUESTION? .......IF YOU WILL TAKE 2500 LESS THEN WHAT ITS WORTH ILL BUY IT ..YOU CONTACT ME TOMORROW ...IF NOT THEN HOW CAN YOU FAULT A DEALER FOR GETTING ALL HIS IS WORTH ...MSRP IS JUST A SUGGESTED PRICE NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS ...I BET YOU WOULD NOT PAY MSRP FOR A CHEVROLET PICK UP TRUCK EVEN THOUGH ITS THE "SUGGESTED" PRICE ...YOU WANT TO PAY LESS THEN MSRP AND THE DEALER WANTS MORE ..WHOS AT FAULT ....AS FOR YOU TRADING YOUR BIKE AND IT SELLING RIGHT AWAY BECAUSE YOU LET THE DEALER STEAL IT ....THE DEALER DOES NOT MAKE ONE DIME OFF HIS NEW BIKE SELL TO YOU UNTIL HE SELLS THE TRADE IN ..ALL HIS PROFIT IT TIED UP IN YOUR OLD BIKE ...NOW IF HE DOES GET LUCKY AND SELL IT IN THE FIRST MONTH HES COMES OUT WELL ...BUT IF IT SITS ON HIM (AND THEY DO AT TIMES) FOR 90 TO 120 DAYS THEN HES NOT DONE SO WELL ....HE TOOK SOME RISK TRADING FOR YOUR USED BIKE AND DESERVES TO MAKE A FAIR PROFIT ON IT BUT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN WE LOOSE MONEY ON TRADE INS ...JUST THE NATURE OF THE BEAST.

BUBBA
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 10:49:53 PM by KentuckyHarleyDude »
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2007, 10:38:16 PM »

RD with all due respect weather it is 18% or 80% its guys like you that continue to pay the price ...you fuel the fire ..for whatever reason we keep building them and you keep buying them ..generally when that continues to happen its because the customer feels he is getting the value for the money he is spending ...you talk about mark up ....we have more profit margin on CVOs then any other bike BUT you continue to buy them ..WHY? As for having a hard time feeling sorry for the dealer I am sure the guy who cut your lawn today or washed your car doesnt feel sorry for you when he sees that CVO sitting in your drive way ... My point is that the dealer nor the MoCo holds a shotgun on you to buy their product ...you make that decesion on your own ...remember when you point a finger at the dealer or MoCo you have 3 pointing right back at you ... I know we have some quality control problems right now but not as much as when AMF owned the company ..and a lot of the problems are due to EPA ....now I understand thats no concellation but the truth is the truth ...the great thing about it is you can either wait to buy one when you feel the bugs are worked out ..or you can ride what you have ..or switch brands ..its YOUR money ... when I say YOU RD I do not mean YOU directly ..its a general term ...with all due respect.

Bubba

With all "due respect"?  As a dealer representative you tell all of us on this forum that "My point is that the dealer nor the MoCo holds a shotgun on you to buy their product"?  After being in business for over 35 years, I would never even think of telling a customer that.  You may sell a lot of bikes and you and your store may make a load of money, but money doesn't buy class.  
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2007, 10:41:06 PM »

This conversation reminds me of the ironworker I tried to hire once. He asked what I'd pay? I asked what could he do? I eventually told him I'd pay him what he was worth. He told me to kiss his a$$, that he'd never work that cheap.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2007, 10:43:15 PM »

With all "due respect"?  As a dealer representative you tell all of us on this forum that "My point is that the dealer nor the MoCo holds a shotgun on you to buy their product"?  After being in business for over 35 years, I would never even think of telling a customer that.  You may sell a lot of bikes and you and your store may make a load of money, but money doesn't buy class.  

HEMMMMM SPEAKING OF CLASS ...YOU DO NOT EVEN KNOW ME AND YOU THROW ROCKS ..NOW THATS CLASSY .... I MAY NOT ALWAYS TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR ..MAY NOT SUGAR COAT IT FOR YOU ...BUT I WILL TELL YOU THE TRUTH AS I KNOW IT ... IF YOU CANT HANDLE HEARING THE TRUTH THEN THATS YOUR PROBLEM.

BUBBA
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2007, 10:49:00 PM »

HEMMMMM SPEAKING OF CLASS ...YOU DO NOT EVEN KNOW ME AND YOU THROW ROCKS ..NOW THATS CLASSY .... I MAY NOT ALWAYS TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR ..MAY NOT SUGAR COAT IT FOR YOU ...BUT I WILL TELL YOU THE TRUTH AS I KNOW IT ... IF YOU CANT HANDLE HEARING THE TRUTH THEN THATS YOUR PROBLEM.

BUBBA

I just know what you said, and I thought it was an awful thing to say as a representative of a HD dealership.  My comment has nothing to do with what you perceive as a truth or fiction.  And would please turn your cap key off, it is considered poor forum etiquette, unless of course you are screaming at all of us.  Have a nice day.   
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2007, 10:57:14 PM »

I just know what you said, and I thought it was an awful thing to say as a representative of a HD dealership.  My comment has nothing to do with what you perceive as a truth or fiction.  And would please turn your cap key off, it is considered poor forum etiquette, unless of course you are screaming at all of us.  Have a nice day.   

AGAIN DEUCE YOU JUST DONT GET IT .... WHEN I SAID THE WE DO NOT HOLD A SHOTGUN ON YOU TO MAKE YOU BUY OUR PRODUCT I MENT IT ..ITS THE TRUTH ...BUT MY REASON FOR USING THAT ANOLOGY WAS TO POINT OUT THAT WHEN YOU DECIDED TO BUY A HARLEY YOU ARE THEN ONE MAKING THE DECESION ...WE DONT TWIST YOUR ARM ..EITHER YOU THINK ITS WORTH THE MONEY OR NOT ...IF YOU FEEL ITS TO HIGH AND STILL BUY THE BIKE YOU HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT YOURSELF ...SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS ..BUT ITS STILL THE TRUTH.

BUBBA
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2007, 11:00:09 PM »

This conversation reminds me of the ironworker I tried to hire once. He asked what I'd pay? I asked what could he do? I eventually told him I'd pay him what he was worth. He told me to kiss his a$$, that he'd never work that cheap.

But I would pay top dollar for a picture of your bike in a trailer!


 ;D
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2007, 11:00:55 PM »

But I would pay top dollar for a picture of your bike in a trailer!


 ;D

How much? I'll get it in the morning? ;D

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2007, 11:01:56 PM »

dOOD IF ONLY WE LIVED IN A PERFECT WORLD .... LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION ...WOULD YOU SELL YOUR BIKE FOR $2500.00 LESS THEN WHAT YOU KNOW IT WILL BRING ..THIS IS A YES OR NO QUESTION? .......IF YOU WILL TAKE 2500 LESS THEN WHAT ITS WORTH ILL BUY IT ..YOU CONTACT ME TOMORROW ...IF NOT THEN HOW CAN YOU FAULT A DEALER FOR GETTING ALL HIS IS WORTH ...MSRP IS JUST A SUGGESTED PRICE NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS ...I BET YOU WOULD NOT PAY MSRP FOR A CHEVROLET PICK UP TRUCK EVEN THOUGH ITS THE "SUGGESTED" PRICE ...YOU WANT TO PAY LESS THEN MSRP AND THE DEALER WANTS MORE ..WHOS AT FAULT ....AS FOR YOU TRADING YOUR BIKE AND IT SELLING RIGHT AWAY BECAUSE YOU LET THE DEALER STEAL IT ....THE DEALER DOES NOT MAKE ONE DIME OFF HIS NEW BIKE SELL TO YOU UNTIL HE SELLS THE TRADE IN ..ALL HIS PROFIT IT TIED UP IN YOUR OLD BIKE ...NOW IF HE DOES GET LUCKY AND SELL IT IN THE FIRST MONTH HES COMES OUT WELL ...BUT IF IT SITS ON HIM (AND THEY DO AT TIMES) FOR 90 TO 120 DAYS THEN HES NOT DONE SO WELL ....HE TOOK SOME RISK TRADING FOR YOUR USED BIKE AND DESERVES TO MAKE A FAIR PROFIT ON IT BUT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN WE LOOSE MONEY ON TRADE INS ...JUST THE NATURE OF THE BEAST.

BUBBA
No, but I wouldn't sell it for 3-5K more then what it is worth just because I can get it either (probably the reason I'm not in sales, because I have a conscious :nixweiss:).

If that same dealer is selling 3-5K over MSRP and he's already making profit (yes there is built in profit if it's sold at MSRP) I wouldn't call his profit being tied up. He may have to wait to reap all the profit, but there is instant gains made.

You have your opinion as I have mine. I've just dealt w/honest dealers that offer there bikes at MSRP and I refuse to pay more then that. If you can get more so be it, you just will not get more from me.

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2007, 11:05:56 PM »

AGAIN DEUCE YOU JUST DONT GET IT .... WHEN I SAID THE WE DO NOT HOLD A SHOTGUN ON YOU TO MAKE YOU BUY OUR PRODUCT I MENT IT ..ITS THE TRUTH ...BUT MY REASON FOR USING THAT ANOLOGY WAS TO POINT OUT THAT WHEN YOU DECIDED TO BUY A HARLEY YOU ARE THEN ONE MAKING THE DECESION ...WE DONT TWIST YOUR ARM ..EITHER YOU THINK ITS WORTH THE MONEY OR NOT ...IF YOU FEEL ITS TO HIGH AND STILL BUY THE BIKE YOU HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT YOURSELF ...SOMETIMES THE TRUTH HURTS ..BUT ITS STILL THE TRUTH.

BUBBA

Okay, I don't get it, fine.  But please turn the darn cap key off.  
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2007, 11:07:00 PM »

How much? I'll get it in the morning? ;D

Hoist! 8)

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I'm on a roll tonight.
At least two people, maybe even more are starting to see the light!
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2007, 11:07:46 PM »

But I would pay top dollar for a picture of your bike in a trailer!


 ;D

IN a trailer? Do you remember where I'm from? My bike is coming ON a trailer.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2007, 11:10:29 PM »

KHD,

Thank you for sharing with us the information you received.  I assume that is the only reason you started this thread, not to defend dealerships everywhere.

I don't know you either, but I have always thought of you as a "friend on the inside" if you know what I mean.  Unfortunately, as you well know, the dealership and its employees are the face of the MOCO to its customers.  You bear the brunt of their frustrations.  At least you have the guts to come on here and take this abuse, unlike the other dealerships that just lurk on the site gleaning what information they can from us.

I understand everyone's frustration.  I have certainly had my own.  My local dealership is a joke (just ask Twolane if you don't believe me), but I expect most of them are very good operations, ran by good people who really have the customers best interest at heart.  That is how they have stayed in business, by taking care of their customers.

We live in, not only a free society, but a market society.  If you don't believe you are getting the best value for your dollar, spend your money elsewhere.  If the market won't bear $5k over MSRP, then the price will come down.  Come on people, if someone offered me a job at twice the salary do you think I would turn it down because I may not be worth that much.  I personally don't think a single player in the NBA is worth what they make, but apparently the market does.

Later,
Ghost
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2007, 11:14:33 PM »

Name it my friend!
I'm on a roll tonight.
At least two people, maybe even more are starting to see the light!
I will bring you a blank check Wednesday!

SB

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We'll negotiate when I get there. After all you can negotiate anything!

I think that's what Bubba means. If you can't reach a deal, then there is no deal. Everything in life is negotiable my friends! :o

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2007, 11:17:20 PM »

Name it my friend!
I'm on a roll tonight.
At least two people, maybe even more are starting to see the light!
I will bring you a blank check Wednesday!

SB

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You give me a blank check on your account, I'll pose beside the trailer and bike with my dentures out.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2007, 11:19:26 PM »

You give me a blank check on your account, I'll pose beside the trailer and bike with my dentures out.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :ROFLOL: :ROFLOL: :ROFLOL: ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2007, 11:19:52 PM »

Travis AMEN and well said. THAT my friend is the way it is.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2007, 11:21:21 PM »

Travis AMEN and well said. THAT my friend is the way it is.

What's the matter Ken, the girls ain't talkin about bikes with you? :o ;D

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2007, 11:24:54 PM »

What's the matter Ken, the girls ain't talkin about bikes with you? :o ;D

Hoist! 8)
We're saving that conversation for the 3 frigging hour trip to Memphis tomorrow, BUDDY.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2007, 11:26:51 PM »

We're saving that conversation for the 3 frigging hour trip to Memphis tomorrow, BUDDY.

 :2vrolijk_21: Good for you Bro. Get Binx all psyched up for the Rally for me. ::)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2007, 11:27:07 PM »

How much money do you need to make?  On a CVO you make 18% at MSRP so a 30K CVO makes you about $5400.  Setup charges is like the diner asking for money for cooking the eggs, it's part of making the $5400.  This is not including all of the parts and labor added to the new bike at 50% markup.  And we all know the techs make crap.  
Now for the trade in.  You tell the customer their bike is only worth $20K and then next day ask $26K.  So you think making over 5K on the new and 6K on the old for a total of 11K is reasonable profit?  I think not.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2007, 11:29:55 PM »

We're saving that conversation for the 3 frigging hour trip to Memphis tomorrow, BUDDY.

Ken,

Once you have had your fill of talking about spa treatments and getting your nails done.  (somewhere just outside of town) give me a call on the cell.  We'll talk about bikes, beers, cigars, and our favorite bars.  Hey, isn't that a country music lyric.   :confused5:

I will be just sitting at work counting the hours until I get to leave for HS.
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deucedog

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2007, 11:34:45 PM »

I am new around here, but since Bubba has been talking "truths" this evening and it is his thread, I'll take the flame, but this thread has been:

 :jack:
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2007, 11:36:28 PM »

No, but I wouldn't sell it for 3-5K more then what it is worth just because I can get it either (probably the reason I'm not in sales, because I have a conscious :nixweiss:).

If that same dealer is selling 3-5K over MSRP and he's already making profit (yes there is built in profit if it's sold at MSRP) I wouldn't call his profit being tied up. He may have to wait to reap all the profit, but there is instant gains made.

You have your opinion as I have mine. I've just dealt w/honest dealers that offer there bikes at MSRP and I refuse to pay more then that. If you can get more so be it, you just will not get more from me.

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WELL IF THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT THEN dOOD OLE BUDDY YOUR ONE IN A MILLION  ....IF THATS TRUE ILL TELL YOU WHAT ILL DO ..ILL MAKE YOU A GOD FATHER DEAL ...IF YOU WILL TAKE 2500 LESS THEN YOUR BIKE IS WORTH ON TRADE ...ILL SELL YOU MINE AT MSRP ...THEN WE BOTH CAN FEEL GOOD ABOUT OURSELF  :bananarock:

BUBBA

BUBBA
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 11:41:41 PM by KentuckyHarleyDude »
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2007, 11:40:24 PM »

How much money do you need to make?  On a CVO you make 18% at MSRP so a 30K CVO makes you about $5400.  Setup charges is like the diner asking for money for cooking the eggs, it's part of making the $5400.  This is not including all of the parts and labor added to the new bike at 50% markup.  And we all know the techs make crap.  
Now for the trade in.  You tell the customer their bike is only worth $20K and then next day ask $26K.  So you think making over 5K on the new and 6K on the old for a total of 11K is reasonable profit?  I think not.


First of all, the dealer didn't make $11k in profit.  They have to pay commissions, plus salaries and benefits to the sales people and the finance guys that did all the paperwork for both sales.  Plus the salaries and benefits of every one of their employees that touch both bikes from the time they arrive.  Lord only knows how much overhead they have in taxes, utilities, insurance, maintenance, interest, etc.

I'm not here to defend dealerships, they make plenty of money.  But don't kid yourself, margin on the sale of a bike, a part, or a t-shirt is NOT pure profit.

Not all accountants screw things up Howie, some of us know what we're doing.   ;D
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2007, 11:48:47 PM »

First of all, the dealer didn't make $11k in profit.  They have to pay commissions, plus salaries and benefits to the sales people and the finance guys that did all the paperwork for both sales.  Plus the salaries and benefits of every one of their employees that touch both bikes from the time they arrive.  Lord only knows how much overhead they have in taxes, utilities, insurance, maintenance, interest, etc.

I'm not here to defend dealerships, they make plenty of money.  But don't kid yourself, margin on the sale of a bike, a part, or a t-shirt is NOT pure profit.

Not all accountants screw things up Howie, some of us know what we're doing.   ;D

THANK YOU GHOST BUT LETS TELL IT LIKE IT IS .... IN ALL HONESTY MOST DEALERS IN THE U.S. MAKE BIG MONEY ...THERE IS NO CANDY COATING IT ...BUT NO MORE THE MOST EXC. VICE PRES. IN A BIG CORP .... AND THE DEALER HAS HIS OWN MONEY INVESTED ...MOST OF THESE DEALERS ALMOST STARVED AND WENT BANKRUPT BACK IN THE MID 70'S AND 80'S ...NOW THEY ARE MAKING SOME BIG MONEY AND MOST DESERVE IT BECAUSE THEY ENDURED AND STAYED THE COURSE ...STAYED LOYAL TO THE MOCO AND THEIR CUSTOMERS ...IM NO OWNER ...JUST AN EMLPOYEE FOR A SMALL STORE ..A SALES MANAGER ...BUT THEY PAY ME PRETTY GOOD AND I LOVE THE PRODUCT AND THE PEOPLE ...

BUBBA
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2007, 12:01:23 AM »

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."

I don't know who said it first, but my kids tell me that all the time.  Actually, I hate their coaches...idiots!   :oops: :jack:
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2007, 01:02:19 AM »

Bubba, I do know you slightly, and appreciate the information you share with us here.  I may not agree with some of what you said, but appreciate the perspective, nonetheless.

I will not pay more than MSRP for ANY product.  My personal FEELING about that is that the MOCO sets a fair price for the bike at MSRP, and one that allows the dealer to make a decent profit margin on each sale.  The setup charge is basically a rip off, as from my understanding, the dealer gets that back from the MOCO, so we're paying twice...but I'll give them that.  Freight is freight...the same for every bike, so no problem with that.

Another feeling I have is that I think it is ethically wrong to charge more than MSRP, therefore I will not purchase the bike from what I consider to be an unethical dealership.  I may be forced to do other business with them, but if I have a viable choice, I will not.  My expectations as a customer are to be treated fairly, appreciated for spending my hard earned money with them, and to get quality product and service.  The dealer has little or no control over the product they offer, but they have direct control over the price they charge, and if that is over MSRP, I have not found anything I want that badly up to this point in my life.  They also have direct contol over the quality of their customer service, and it is disgraceful how some dealerships treat people.  I will go out of my way to be loyal to those who treat me fairly, or at least make an effort to do so.  But if a place ever screws me over on purpose, they have lost my business forever.

Bottom line is that everyone should just do the right thing...they know what that is 90% of the time.  If that happened, nobody would be complaining.

The MOCO has some serious problems right now with QC, and if not addressed, will cost them in the long run, and the dealers will suffer as they did back in the bad old days of AMF.  There is simply no excuse for shipping bikes with bad paint, motors that will not perform up to minimum expectations.  It's not the EPA's fault.  These laws have been in the pipeline for YEARS.  If the MOCO cannot product a large displacement motor that will perform adequately, not leak or blow up in one way or the other, then they simply should not market the product.  If the product needs to be changed dramatically to meet new mandates, then change.  Loyal customers will learn to love the new, just like they did when changes were made in the past. The CVO bike should be a standard that all others strive to equal....30 - 35 K is more than enough money to expect excellence.  Perhaps that is being naive on my part, but anything else is just not right.  Making money is what makes this country go 'round, but making obscene amounts of money, at the expense of the consumer, is just plain wrong.

That is just my opinion, and is how I try to live my life, both personally and professionally.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2007, 06:47:47 AM »

Very well said and I agree totally with your above post TC..
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2007, 07:00:52 AM »

WELL IF THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT THEN dOOD OLE BUDDY YOUR ONE IN A MILLION  ....IF THATS TRUE ILL TELL YOU WHAT ILL DO ..ILL MAKE YOU A GOD FATHER DEAL ...IF YOU WILL TAKE 2500 LESS THEN YOUR BIKE IS WORTH ON TRADE ...ILL SELL YOU MINE AT MSRP ...THEN WE BOTH CAN FEEL GOOD ABOUT OURSELF  :bananarock:

BUBBA

BUBBA
You're getting it a little twisted. What I said is I wouldn't take 3-5K more for my bike just because I could (like those dealers that are selling 3-5K over MSRP because people will pay it). To me that's would be like a robber standing up in court trying to justify that it was alright to stick a gun to someone's head and take there money because they could. I would expect fair market value for my bike (BTW - I don't as a norm trade in a vehicle I sell it outright for the simple fact that most vehicle dealers (car/motorcycle/etc) want to make a profit out of them).

In regards to feeling good about oneself, that's up to the individual. I can't make you feel good about yourself, and you can't make me feel good about myself.

I guess the thing that bothers me (and probably a lot of the others that are responding) is the fact that you come here and want to justify paying more then a product is worth as all right. That in a nutshell is what is confusing to me. :confused5: But as I stated earlier if you feel good about yourself doing that so be it.

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2007, 07:30:09 AM »

First of all, the dealer didn't make $11k in profit.  They have to pay commissions, plus salaries and benefits to the sales people and the finance guys that did all the paperwork for both sales.  Plus the salaries and benefits of every one of their employees that touch both bikes from the time they arrive.  Lord only knows how much overhead they have in taxes, utilities, insurance, maintenance, interest, etc.

I'm not here to defend dealerships, they make plenty of money.  But don't kid yourself, margin on the sale of a bike, a part, or a t-shirt is NOT pure profit.

Not all accountants screw things up Howie, some of us know what we're doing.   ;D

Sorry I meant gross margin which is still excessive.  I think we should get together and have a telethon to raise money for them.
There are a lot of profitable businesses that operate on a much lower margin.  That's why it's ridiculous when they ask for freight and setup.  That's part of their costs associated with the sale.  There have been dealers that have actually stated that the MSRP is what the dealer paid for the bike.  Come on now.  They take advantage of a market with (i hate to say) no competition among dealers.  They protect their turf for the most part.  We had local dealers that never sold above MSRP even in the bad years.  We try to always do business with them.
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2007, 07:53:47 AM »

Bubba, I do know you slightly, and appreciate the information you share with us here.  I may not agree with some of what you said, but appreciate the perspective, nonetheless.

I will not pay more than MSRP for ANY product.  My personal FEELING about that is that the MOCO sets a fair price for the bike at MSRP, and one that allows the dealer to make a decent profit margin on each sale.  The setup charge is basically a rip off, as from my understanding, the dealer gets that back from the MOCO, so we're paying twice...but I'll give them that.  Freight is freight...the same for every bike, so no problem with that.

Another feeling I have is that I think it is ethically wrong to charge more than MSRP, therefore I will not purchase the bike from what I consider to be an unethical dealership.  I may be forced to do other business with them, but if I have a viable choice, I will not.  My expectations as a customer are to be treated fairly, appreciated for spending my hard earned money with them, and to get quality product and service.  The dealer has little or no control over the product they offer, but they have direct control over the price they charge, and if that is over MSRP, I have not found anything I want that badly up to this point in my life.  They also have direct contol over the quality of their customer service, and it is disgraceful how some dealerships treat people.  I will go out of my way to be loyal to those who treat me fairly, or at least make an effort to do so.  But if a place ever screws me over on purpose, they have lost my business forever.

Bottom line is that everyone should just do the right thing...they know what that is 90% of the time.  If that happened, nobody would be complaining.

The MOCO has some serious problems right now with QC, and if not addressed, will cost them in the long run, and the dealers will suffer as they did back in the bad old days of AMF.  There is simply no excuse for shipping bikes with bad paint, motors that will not perform up to minimum expectations.  It's not the EPA's fault.  These laws have been in the pipeline for YEARS.  If the MOCO cannot product a large displacement motor that will perform adequately, not leak or blow up in one way or the other, then they simply should not market the product.  If the product needs to be changed dramatically to meet new mandates, then change.  Loyal customers will learn to love the new, just like they did when changes were made in the past. The CVO bike should be a standard that all others strive to equal....30 - 35 K is more than enough money to expect excellence.  Perhaps that is being naive on my part, but anything else is just not right.  Making money is what makes this country go 'round, but making obscene amounts of money, at the expense of the consumer, is just plain wrong.

That is just my opinion, and is how I try to live my life, both personally and professionally.

TC I RESPECT YOUR OPINION AND I AGREE WITH 95% OF WHAT YOU HAVE SAID ...WE ARE AN MSRP STORE ON ALL REGULAR PRODUCED BIKES BUT WE DO GET A PREMIUM ON CVO'S ..... OVER MY 30 YEARS IN RETAIL SALES I HAVE FOUND THAT MOST CUSTOMERS LOYALTY RUNS ABOUT $250.00 DEEP ....IF I'M $250.00 HIGHER THEN THE HD STORE 40 MILES AWAY THEN THAT "LOYAL" CUSTOMER IS GONE DOWN THE ROAD .... FUNNY THING ABOUT "LOYALTY" IT SEEMS TO BE ITS ALWAYS THE DEALER WHO IS AT FAULT IF THAT BOND IS BROKEN ... WE SEEM TO ALWATS BE THE BAD GUY ....ITS NEVER THE PENNY PINCHING CUSTOMER WHO WILL DRIVE 300 MILES TO SAVE $300.00 .... I PERSONALLY THINK "LOYATY" IS EARNED AND ITS A TWO WAY STREET...LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE ....I HAVE A "LOYAL" CUSTOMER COME IN WANTING TO TRADE HIS BIKE ...WE HAVE SOLD HIM TWO OR THREE BIKES IN THE PAST ...ALWAYS TOOK CARE OF HIM IN SERVICE ...GIVES HIM A DISCOUNT IN PARTS BECAUSE OF HIS "LOYALTY" ... NOW LETS SAY HE HAS A NICE CLEAN ROAD KING AND WANTS A NEW ULTRA ...ITS AT A TIME WHEN I HAPPEN TO BE HEAVY IN USED ROAD KINGS SO I OFFER TO ALLOW HIM X AMOUNT OF $$$$ FOR HIS TRADE ...HE DRIVES OVER TO "LOW BALL HARLEY-DAVIDSON" IN PODUNC KY AND THE DEALER THERE HAS NO USED ROAD KINGS AND OFFERES HIS $500.00 MORE ON HIS TRADE THEN I DID ... DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT 95% OF THE "LOYAL" CUSTOMERS ARE GOING TO DRIVE BACK TO MY PLACE AND PAY ME $500 MORE JUST OUT OF "LOYALTY" .... NOPE ...ALL THAT GOOD SERVICE WE GAVE HIM ..ALL THOSE DISCOUNTS ON PARTS ... IS FORGOTTEN ABOUT OVER THE $500.00 HE CAN SAVE ON BUYING THAT NEW BIKE...LIKE I SAID LOYALTY IS EARNED AND IT IS A "TWO WAY STREET"

BUBBA
BUBBA
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 09:17:47 AM by KentuckyHarleyDude »
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2007, 08:09:15 AM »

TC I RESPECT YOUR OPINION AND I AGREE WITH 95% OF WHAT YOU HAVE SAID ...WE ARE AN MSRP STORE ON ALL REGULAR PRODUCED BIKES BUT WE DO GET A PREMIUM ON CVO'S ..... OVER MY 30 YEARS IN RETAIL SALES I HAVE FOUND THAT MOST CUSTOMERS LOYALTY RUNS ABOUT $250.00 DEEP ....IF I'M $250.00 HIGHER THEN THE HD STORE 40 MILES AWAY THEN THAT "LOYAL" CUSTOMER IS GONE DOWN THE ROAD .... FUNNY THING ABOUT "LOYALTY" IT SEEMS TO BE ITS ALWAYS THE DEALER WHO IS AT FAULT IF THAT BOND IS BROKEN ... WE SEEM TO ALWATS BE THE BAD GUY ....ITS NEVER THE PENNY PINCHING CUSTOMER WHO WILL DRIVE 300 MILES TO SAVE $300.00 .... I PERSONALLY THINK "LOYATY" IS EARNED AND ITS A TWO WAY STREET.
BUBBA
BUBBA

I agree with that. 
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2007, 08:17:12 AM »

I PERSONALLY THINK "LOYATY" IS EARNED AND ITS A TWO WAY STREET.

BUBBA
BUBBA

Not much loyalty left any more rather we're talking motorcycles, boats, cars, trucks.  But it is a very true statement.
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miker

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2007, 08:53:08 AM »

Earned is the key word...I have been dimissed too many times from more than several dealers over many years...
I am no idiot aside from my HD addiction.  Methinks they will reap what they have sown.  The stock has been a good short for me the last 2 weeks, I will cover today and may jump it again.   ;)

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2007, 09:05:40 AM »

WELL IF THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT THEN dOOD OLE BUDDY YOUR ONE IN A MILLION  ....IF THATS TRUE ILL TELL YOU WHAT ILL DO ..ILL MAKE YOU A GOD FATHER DEAL ...IF YOU WILL TAKE 2500 LESS THEN YOUR BIKE IS WORTH ON TRADE ...ILL SELL YOU MINE AT MSRP ...THEN WE BOTH CAN FEEL GOOD ABOUT OURSELF  :bananarock:

BUBBA

BUBBA

Actually Bubba, the 'd00d isn't one in a million in this case.  There are plenty of us who believe in treating others fairly and not taking advantage of them.  I for one have never "made money" selling a vehicle.  Back when I used to sell my vehicles privately (nowdays I just trade them in), I would look up the book retail and wholesale prices and then ask for the average of the two.  I didn't expect full retail, since I wasn't a dealer and I wasn't offering any extra services, warranties, etc. and didn't have to pay commissions and salaries.  I also disclosed any and all known issues with the vehicle, assuming there were any I hadn't already repaired.  As the 'd00d commented, perhaps that's why I would never make it in sales.

I do agree with your comments about why things are the way they are, and as long as folks with more money/credit than brains continue to throw it away at their "friendly Harley dealer" there will be no incentive for anything to change.  The MoCo will continue to provide substandard products at inflated prices, and many dealers will continue to gouge their customers until they bleed.  Those of us who refuse to continue to support this madness will wind up sitting on the sidelines for awhile, or finding alternate brands to feed our motorcycle addiction, while the "faithful" population continues to dwindle as age takes it's toll.  Eventually the MoCo and it's dealers will have to change, or the younger generation will just blow them off like they have many other venerable American brands.  Oh, and BTW, if you mean you'll buy the trade at $2500 less than what it's worth RETAIL and then sell the new bike at MSRP, that sounds like a fair deal to me.  Unfortunately, I know exactly what you really mean, since it seems to be the standard method used by lots of dealers.  $2500 under WHOLESALE for the trade, which would translate to a $7500 gross on the trade-in once you resell it at retail book (example '05 SEEG, $20k trade-in, $25k retail book values).

BTW - to get back to your original reason for this topic, the MoCo made public statements earlier about reducing production due to slowing domestic sales.  Why are they now telling you it's due to vendor issues (I always love that one, blame someone else but don't divulge the name and the problem details)?  And why are they reducing production if there are really that many dealerships like yours who want the extra product?  It makes no sense to reduce production if they really have dealerships looking for additional product.  It sounds more like they just have a distribution system that doesn't adjust well when going from a "shortage" mode to an "oversupply" mode.  They should be making every effort to divert product from those who don't need or want it to the places like yours which seem to still have excellent sales growth, without making the dealers go around the system with dealer transfers.  Just one more example of the complacency of MoCo management perhaps?

Jerry
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2007, 09:32:41 AM »

BTW -   And why are they reducing production if there are really that many dealerships like yours who want the extra product? 
Jerry

I can field this one I believe.

I sat in a meeting yesterday with a group of auto dealers and nearly every "smaller" dealer was crying for product.

The over supply issue is when business begins to slow it is felt in the high volume locations long before it is felt in the outlying markets.  The way it usually goes is the small guy can get "hot" product only once the demand drops off.

The dealers that will do the best manage their inventory daily to maintain a "proper" days supply of product.  If this means you sell a few bikes at or below MSRP to keep the showroom floor looking like demand remains, then so be it.  I beleive the biggest issue here in regard to inventory is that too many dealers have been able to hide/warehouse bikes and still manage to sell them off in an orderly fashion by model year changeover.

The big difference this year is it isn't happening as there are not enough willing buyers to absorb the excess.

Also, back on the sidebar of a dealer's profit for a minute, it was pointed out that there is big overhead (true) and some feel the dealer's are making big (excessive) profit.

Let me ask, what is a good return on your investments?  Would it be 2, 3 or 4 percent?  No, I think a "good" return is more like 7 or 8.  Some would then argue a great return is 11 or better.  When you consider the risk involved with being in business, any business, also consider these dealers could have the money in secure instruments returning 5 or 6 percent.  With some risk they may get better but this risk wouldn't be anything near the risk of running their dealerships.

If a medium sized dealership has a value of $5 to $7 million and a large one is $15 to 20 million, even at a no risk return of 5% the dealer would be making $350,000.00 in the medium situation and $1,000,000.00 in the large one.

To many folks that is big money, but if you had your money on the line everyday, would it be an acceptable return?

How did we all feel over the last month when the market dropped and you lost 5% in your 401k?  Just keep in mind, when you make a dollar (net before tax) you probably keep 65 cents of it after tax.  When you lose a dollar, you lose the entire dollar.  

That said, if anyone is interested, I know of a dealership in New York that you can pick up that has an annual volume of approximately 350 to 400 units.  All you need is about $7,000,000.00 and your in business. Let me know if there are any takers and I can put you in touch with the guy that can make your dream come true.  Then you can be dealing with all of us on a daily basis. I'm sure we could all come to you to buy bikes cheap...parts too.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 09:38:36 AM by Rjob749 »
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2007, 09:56:58 AM »

I can field this one I believe.

I sat in a meeting yesterday with a group of auto dealers and nearly every "smaller" dealer was crying for product.

The over supply issue is when business begins to slow it is felt in the high volume locations long before it is felt in the outlying markets.  The way it usually goes is the small guy can get "hot" product only once the demand drops off.

The dealers that will do the best manage their inventory daily to maintain a "proper" days supply of product.  If this means you sell a few bikes at or below MSRP to keep the showroom floor looking like demand remains, then so be it.  I beleive the biggest issue here in regard to inventory is that too many dealers have been able to hide/warehouse bikes and still manage to sell them off in an orderly fashion by model year changeover.

The big difference this year is it isn't happening as there are not enough willing buyers to absorb the excess.

Also, back on the sidebar of a dealer's profit for a minute, it was pointed out that there is big overhead (true) and some feel the dealer's are making big (excessive) profit.

Let me ask, what is a good return on your investments?  Would it be 2, 3 or 4 percent?  No, I think a "good" return is more like 7 or 8.  Some would then argue a great return is 11 or better.  When you consider the risk involved with being in business, any business, also consider these dealers could have the money in secure instruments returning 5 or 6 percent.  With some risk they may get better but this risk wouldn't be anything near the risk of running their dealerships.

If a medium sized dealership has a value of $5 to $7 million and a large one is $15 to 20 million, even at a no risk return of 5% the dealer would be making $350,000.00 in the medium situation and $1,000,000.00 in the large one.

To many folks that is big money, but if you had your money on the line everyday, would it be an acceptable return?

How did we all feel over the last month when the market dropped and you lost 5% in your 401k?  Just keep in mind, when you make a dollar (net before tax) you probably keep 65 cents of it after tax.  When you lose a dollar, you lose the entire dollar.  

That said, if anyone is interested, I know of a dealership in New York that you can pick up that has an annual volume of approximately 350 to 400 units.  All you need is about $7,000,000.00 and your in business. Let me know if there are any takers and I can put you in touch with the guy that can make your dream come true.  Then you can be dealing with all of us on a daily basis. I'm sure we could all come to you to buy bikes cheap...parts too.

BINGO !!! FINALLY someone who has a clue and tells it like it is !

Bubba
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2007, 11:11:34 AM »

BINGO !!! FINALLY someone who has a clue and tells it like it is !

Bubba

Bubba, actually most of us here have a clue.  Many of us either are or have been in business for ourselves.  Not just working in another's shop.  So we're familiar with everything Roger mentions and thoroughly understand the risks inherent when it's all on your dime (as opposed to simply your paycheck).

All that being said, there is still a history based on a very real foundation when it comes to the Harley shops.  There were many who marked up; a lot.  Were their consumers willing to pay it?  Sure.  Was it "wrong?"  Depends on the particular definition in question at the moment.

Please do not assume, however, that as a shop employee you're in a better position to "have a clue" as to all the exigent considerations of running a business and being responsible for all of its employees and their families than those many of us that have actually been there and done that.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2007, 11:23:26 AM »

I think the real point here (or at least the one that resonates with me) is that the MOCO has had a 15 year run where their customers were willing to put up with mediocore to poor performance of their product. The real question is not whether there are good dealerships or bad dealerships - there are both (reminds me of the animal house line about "the question is not whether we took advantage of our female guests - We did!!").  The real question for me is will the next generation of riders be so forgiving and allow for an inferior product?  Will the mystic and intangibles of riding a harley offset the mechanical headaches we deal with for the next generation. That is the question that MOCO must face i suspect. 

Free
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2007, 11:43:44 AM »

Bubba, actually most of us here have a clue.  Many of us either are or have been in business for ourselves.  Not just working in another's shop.  So we're familiar with everything Roger mentions and thoroughly understand the risks inherent when it's all on your dime (as opposed to simply your paycheck).

All that being said, there is still a history based on a very real foundation when it comes to the Harley shops.  There were many who marked up; a lot.  Were their consumers willing to pay it?  Sure.  Was it "wrong?"  Depends on the particular definition in question at the moment.

Please do not assume, however, that as a shop employee you're in a better position to "have a clue" as to all the exigent considerations of running a business and being responsible for all of its employees and their families than those many of us that have actually been there and done that.

Two I would purpose you practice what you preach..don't ASSuME ...I got in the car business in 1975 and worked on the showroom for 5 years I owned my own car business for 10 years ...I worked as a general manager and general sales manager for 10 years ...I retired in 2001 but got board and decided to go back to work ...thus I mived to Kentucky to take this job with two fine owners ... so with you not knowing my background I would just say to you sir I have been in the position .... however most of what you said I would agree on ..... again this is not a perfect world ... but it beats digging ditches.

Bubba
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2007, 11:48:52 AM »


Two I would purpose you practice what you preach..don't ASSuME ...


Bubba, the assumption came from the condecension in your tone.  That's a tone usually borne of the assumptions of one that sees what's going on around him and assumes that's all there is to see.  If you spoke to me or with me rather than at me or down to me I'd be far more interested in what you've got to say and would be far more likely to assume your intent was truly to inform rather than merely posture.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2007, 11:50:43 AM »

I think the real point here (or at least the one that resonates with me) is that the MOCO has had a 15 year run where their customers were willing to put up with mediocore to poor performance of their product. The real question is not whether there are good dealerships or bad dealerships - there are both (reminds me of the animal house line about "the question is not whether we took advantage of our female guests - We did!!").  The real question for me is will the next generation of riders be so forgiving and allow for an inferior product?  Will the mystic and intangibles of riding a harley offset the mechanical headaches we deal with for the next generation. That is the question that MOCO must face i suspect.  
Free

Free that my friend is a very good post ... yep there are good ones and bad ones but its funny that most all you hear about is the bad ....as for the "next generation" ....seems like they always have been forgiving ..the 50's 60's even the AMF 70's and 80's we kept riding .... but I will be the FIRST to admit we do have some speed bumps to over come ...one that really bothers me is the high heat that is coming off the new engines .... Harley HAS to do something about that ...I know they are running the engine leaner but the heat really bothers my customers and I sure do not blame them ...there are other issues I know but I feel confident that HD will address them and try to do whats right.

Bubba
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2007, 11:53:03 AM »

Bubba, the assumption came from the condecension in your tone.  That's a tone usually borne of the assumptions of one that sees what's going on around him and assumes that's all there is to see.  If you spoke to me or with me rather than at me or down to me I'd be far more interested in what you've got to say and would be far more likely to assume your intent was truly to inform rather than merely posture.

Two I am not going to get in a pissing battle with you..I have NOTHING to gain ..as for talking "down" to you I do not even KNOW you so why would you say that...none of my post were directed at you BUT YOU on the other hand make THIS statement " Many of us either are or have been in business for ourselves.  Not just working in another's shop. " ...give me a break...its sounds by YOUR tone YOUR the one talking down to ME..you are entitled to your opinions ...I am curious though ..how can you pick up on my "tone" when you cant hear my voice ...ASSuMEing again ? By the way just for your future reference

tone [ tōn ]


noun  (plural tones)
 
Definition:
 
1. distinctive kind of sound: a sound with a distinctive quality
The first bell has a clearer tone.

 
2. way of speaking: the way somebody says something as an indicator of what that person is feeling or thinking
a defiant tone in her voice
 


Bubba
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 12:28:03 PM by KentuckyHarleyDude »
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2007, 01:34:03 PM »

RD with all due respect weather it is 18% or 80% its guys like you that continue to pay the price ...you fuel the fire ..for whatever reason we keep building them and you keep buying them ..generally when that continues to happen its because the customer feels he is getting the value for the money he is spending ...you talk about mark up ....we have more profit margin on CVOs then any other bike BUT you continue to buy them ..WHY? As for having a hard time feeling sorry for the dealer I am sure the guy who cut your lawn today or washed your car doesnt feel sorry for you when he sees that CVO sitting in your drive way ... My point is that the dealer nor the MoCo holds a shotgun on you to buy their product ...you make that decesion on your own ...remember when you point a finger at the dealer or MoCo you have 3 pointing right back at you ... I know we have some quality control problems right now but not as much as when AMF owned the company ..and a lot of the problems are due to EPA ....now I understand thats no concellation but the truth is the truth ...the great thing about it is you can either wait to buy one when you feel the bugs are worked out ..or you can ride what you have ..or switch brands ..its YOUR money ... when I say YOU RD I do not mean YOU directly ..its a general term ...with all due respect.

Bubba

Bubba,
I have no problems buying a Harley at a fair price and I have no problems with dealers that sell their bikes at a fair price (at or right around MSRP).  I didn't buy my CVO as an investment.  Never even considered that. I bought it because I wanted it.  If our dealerships around me had been price-gouging, like some out on the left coast and down in Florida, I never would have bought it, no matter how bad I wanted it.  You're right, I have the right to choose to buy it or not, and I do, and I guess you (by you I mean the dealerships, not you personally Bubba), have the right to charge whatever you think you can get for a motorcycle whether it's fair or not.  (By the way, I've heard from many people that KHD is a very fair and good dealership.  ;) )  I was trying to buy a Dodge pickup at one dealership and he wouldn't budge off of his price, so while I was at the dealership walking around I decided to call a couple of other Dodge dealerships and found one that would offer me the same truck, starting on the phone for $2K less than the "final" offer of this guy.  I went back and told him that and he pounded his fist on the desk and said, "how can you go there, you're taking food off of my family's table?"  I told him I guess this other dealer's family eats less than his and walked out.  By the way, I did buy the truck from the other dealership and paid even less for it when I started haggling in person.  I really don't know what my point is anymore.... :D Just venting now.  :P
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
  :devil:
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2007, 01:43:18 PM »

Bubba,
I have no problems buying a Harley at a fair price and I have no problems with dealers that sell their bikes at a fair price (at or right around MSRP).  I didn't buy my CVO as an investment.  Never even considered that. I bought it because I wanted it.   If our dealerships around me had been price-gouging, like some out on the left coast and down in Florida, I never would have bought it, no matter how bad I wanted it.  You're right, I have the right to choose to buy it or not, and I do, and I guess you (by you I mean the dealerships, not you personally Bubba), have the right to charge whatever you think you can get for a motorcycle whether it's fair or not.  (By the way, I've heard from many people that KHD is a very fair and good dealership.  ;) )  I was trying to buy a Dodge pickup at one dealership and he wouldn't budge off of his price, so while I was at the dealership walking around I decided to call a couple of other Dodge dealerships and found one that would offer me the same truck, starting on the phone for $2K less than the "final" offer of this guy.  I went back and told him that and he pounded his fist on the desk and said, "how can you go there, you're taking food off of my family's table?"  I told him I guess this other dealer's family eats less than his and walked out.  By the way, I did buy the truck from the other dealership and paid even less for it when I started haggling in person.  I really don't know what my point is anymore.... :D Just venting now.  :P
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
  :devil:

RD its to bad everyone INCLUDING ME does not have YOUR attitude ...you know it REALLY burns my butt to have to pay $3.00 a gallon for gas or $1.49 for a one liter bottle of diet coke (no sugar which is the most expensive ingredient in coke) when I know they produce that bottle for less then a dime ...BUT I buy it anyway cause I do not like Pepsi

Bubba
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2007, 01:50:39 PM »

The real question for me is will the next generation of riders be so forgiving and allow for an inferior product?   Will the mystic and intangibles of riding a harley offset the mechanical headaches we deal with for the next generation. That is the question that MOCO must face i suspect. 

Free

Andy, I am sure I will be speaking to the choir here, but the answer to the question you posed is; Absolutely Not.

The next gen riders are less forgiving and more demanding on product performance and quality.  There is no wa the MoCo can continue relying only on the mystic and loyalty of their customers to continually produce the growth and profitability they have enjoyed.  Likewise, it is doubtful that they can even maintain it if they only rely on mystic and loyalty.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 01:55:13 PM by Rjob749 »
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2007, 02:18:38 PM »

................................................  And why are they reducing production if there are really that many dealerships like yours who want the extra product?  ....................................................

Jerry
Roger,

That question was tongue-in-cheek; I know exactly why there are dealers claiming shortages while others still have full warehouses of carryover models.  The bike business isn't much different than the car business, except it's easier to hide the excess bikes in warehouses.  The point I was trying to make is that perhaps there is a slight problem with Harley's distribution system, which was designed to deal with a market in a perpetual state of shortages.  I get the distinct impression that most of the dealers have continued to order every bike their allocation allows, even though they have no customers for them, because to not do so would cause them to lose allocation in the future.  It takes a lot of years in a "turn to earn" system to build your allocation, and no one wants to throw those gains away.  Eventually, if the market stays flat or worse, that excess inventory is going to either be dumped on the market at fire sale prices or it will be offered up to the little guys as dealer transfers.  I seriously doubt Harley wants to see the situation that has existed with other brands in the past, where you could find three model years of brand new never registered bikes on the same showroom floor.  Something like that really makes charging over MSRP a tough sell!

Jerry
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2007, 02:29:42 PM »

Roger,

That question was tongue-in-cheek; I know exactly why there are dealers claiming shortages while others still have full warehouses of carryover models.  The bike business isn't much different than the car business, except it's easier to hide the excess bikes in warehouses.  The point I was trying to make is that perhaps there is a slight problem with Harley's distribution system, which was designed to deal with a market in a perpetual state of shortages.  I get the distinct impression that most of the dealers have continued to order every bike their allocation allows, even though they have no customers for them, because to not do so would cause them to lose allocation in the future.  It takes a lot of years in a "turn to earn" system to build your allocation, and no one wants to throw those gains away.  Eventually, if the market stays flat or worse, that excess inventory is going to either be dumped on the market at fire sale prices or it will be offered up to the little guys as dealer transfers.  I seriously doubt Harley wants to see the situation that has existed with other brands in the past, where you could find three model years of brand new never registered bikes on the same showroom floor.  Something like that really makes charging over MSRP a tough sell!

Jerry

My comment was a reply to Jerry's above:

I agree and I think we're already there.  Everytime I am at our local dealer and a bunch of guys see a new bike at over MSRP nearly everyone views it as obnoxious.  It's almost as if its passe' and uncool now.  Personally, I find it offensive.  But, as Bubba has so eloquently pointed out, no one puts a shot gun to us to buy it.  And we don't.  We simply go elsewhere where they do charge MSRP and reward the reasonable dealers with our business and loyalty.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 03:26:17 PM by deucedog »
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2007, 02:32:04 PM »

Jerry, I gotcha.

That three model year scenario was evident in Nelson BC when Canuck and I borrowed the truck.  They had KTM's there back to 05.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2007, 03:12:24 PM »

RD its to bad everyone INCLUDING ME does not have YOUR attitude ...you know it REALLY burns my butt to have to pay $3.00 a gallon for gas or $1.49 for a one liter bottle of diet coke (no sugar which is the most expensive ingredient in coke) when I know they produce that bottle for less then a dime ...BUT I buy it anyway cause I do not like Pepsi

Bubba
Bubba,
I hear ya.  I hate paying $3.00 a gallon for premium here in VA, but if I don't, I don't ride the CVO.  >:(  I guess you do what you have to do.  There's a lot of things that would, if I had it my way, be different.  But when we're controlled by corporate America, what can you do.  You can't complain to Congress because big business is lining their pockets nicely, so they will listen and act only so much as to not pi$$ their sugar-daddies off. 
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
  :devil:
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2007, 03:19:16 PM »

My crystal ball tells me that the next three years will be economically hard for all of us.
It will be especially hard for non-essential manufacturers like Harley-Davidson. They will come back stronger than ever because many lower tier motorcycle manufacturers will close their doors.
Harley is cutting back on production and I think they need to do that to be responsible to their shareholders.
I predict some dealerships will change hands in the next three years and there will be bargains on product for those who will part with cash or sign a note.

So if you like your local dealer you should hope he made some healthy profits in the last few years and he was saving it for a rainy day because the next few years he'll be giving those profits back to stay afloat.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2007, 03:20:34 PM »

yup - sounds right to me.

Harley really is getting some help from the weak dollar and should continue to do so for the forseable future. More and more motorcycles sold overseas.

Free
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2007, 03:24:00 PM »

My crystal ball tells me that the next three years will be economically hard for all of us.
It will be especially hard for non-essential manufacturers like Harley-Davidson. They will come back stronger than ever because many lower tier motorcycle manufacturers will close their doors.
Harley is cutting back on production and I think they need to do that to be responsible to their shareholders.
I predict some dealerships will change hands in the next three years and there will be bargains on product for those who will part with cash or sign a note.

So if you like your local dealer you should hope he made some healthy profits in the last few years and he was saving it for a rainy day because the next few years he'll be giving those profits back to stay afloat.

You don't need to wait three years, I can tell you of four in the last three months.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2007, 03:33:18 PM »

Well, been reading through this thread and I guess the best way to describe it would be "spirited".
Anyway, thought I would put in my 2 cents (if anyone is interested).

I have been in business for 20 years >> almost afraid to say what kind of business for fear of attacks, but I am in the insurance business.
Because I am in business, I very well understand the expenses involved with running a business: taxes, utilities, payroll, etc...  BTW, one big difference with my business >> the price I charge is fixed - insurance company has to get their price approved with the state insurance dept.  Thus, my profit is fixed on the service I sell >> but this has nothing to do with this thread.

Anyway, I don't care what MSRP is or how much a dealer may charge above MSRP or for freight and set-up.  I have customers that are very loyal and some have been doing business with me for 20 years.  I have always done my best (and demand the same of my employees - or they are out the door) to be honest with my customers and give them the best value -- unfortunately, I have yet to find this kind of service and honesty in the car/motorcycle business.
There are two HD dealers within ten miles of my office.  I have never purchased a bike from either >> not that I have not tried, I am just a frugal shopper.  I am not an impulse buyer, so I take my time (maybe a few months) and check my options and buy from the dealer that will give me the best deal.  And, I will never trade-in a bike or car - IMO, you are just asking to get off on the wrong foot with a dealer of any kind when you trade any vehicle in.  I will sell it myself and beat the dealer out of that $$.
With regard to service work:  I have yet to find a dealer (car or bike) that does the work to my satisfaction.  Therefore, if I can do it myself, I do it and then I know it was done right.
Warranty work:  This is different; they have you over a barrel >> warranty pays for work &/or parts, so you have to deal with a dealer.  If a dealer screws me on warranty work or does a crappy job, then there are more dealers around and they all get paid whether it comes out of my pocket or form the mfg.  I will find a dealer that will treat me right and will do quality work.
Product Quality:  This is a problem --  We all have fallen in love with HD.  I can't think of any other brand in the market that people blindly follow like we do HD.  We either buy HD and deal with it or we buy japan, germany, italy, china,.....  With that said, I have to wonder about the MoCo's ethics...if you know there is a problem with your product, fix it and then charge accordingly.  IMO, HD really needs to take care of the "Goose that lays the golden eggs".

Anyway, that's my 2 cents
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2007, 03:36:55 PM »

My comment was a reply to Jerry's above:

I agree and I think we're already there.  Everytime I am at our local dealer and a bunch of guys see a new bike at over MSRP nearly everyone views it as obnoxious.  It's almost as if its passe' and uncool now.  Personally, I find it offensive.  But, as Bubba has so eloquently pointed out, no one puts a shot gun to us to buy it.  And we don't.  We simply go elsewhere where they do charge MSRP and reward the reasonable dealers with our business and loyalty.



IT's all about CHOICE>> If a Dealer is over MSRP I don't buy pure and simple, No one  made me buy any of my bikes, I chose to buy every one of them for different reasons. IF they want to sell over MSRP it's their choice, they paid for the inventory  they can do whatever they choose. I personally don't care for that but that's the way it is..  Like TC said screw me once we're done.    Greg
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2007, 03:44:01 PM »

IT's all about CHOICE>> If a Dealer is over MSRP I don't buy pure and simple, No one  made me buy any of my bikes, I chose to buy every one of them for different reasons. IF they want to sell over MSRP it's their choice, they paid for the inventory  they can do whatever they choose. I personally don't care for that but that's the way it is..  Like TC said screw me once we're done.    Greg

No one I know likes paying over MSRP, and I hate even the thought of it, but I will always defend their right to do so.  Having the right to do it and being a willing participant (the one who is paying over MSRP) are two very different things in my mind. 
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #92 on: September 12, 2007, 03:46:23 PM »

You don't need to wait three years, I can tell you of four in the last three months.

boston HD was bought out by rossmeyer
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #93 on: September 12, 2007, 04:04:47 PM »

RD its to bad everyone INCLUDING ME does not have YOUR attitude ...you know it REALLY burns my butt to have to pay $3.00 a gallon for gas or $1.49 for a one liter bottle of diet coke (no sugar which is the most expensive ingredient in coke) when I know they produce that bottle for less then a dime ...BUT I buy it anyway cause I do not like Pepsi

Bubba

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2007, 04:09:18 PM »

Two I am not going to get in a pissing battle with you..I have NOTHING to gain ..as for talking "down" to you I do not even KNOW you so why would you say that...none of my post were directed at you BUT YOU on the other hand make THIS statement " Many of us either are or have been in business for ourselves.  Not just working in another's shop. " ...give me a break...its sounds by YOUR tone YOUR the one talking down to ME..you are entitled to your opinions ...I am curious though ..how can you pick up on my "tone" when you cant hear my voice ...ASSuMEing again ? By the way just for your future reference

tone [ tōn ]


noun  (plural tones)
 
Definition:
 
1. distinctive kind of sound: a sound with a distinctive quality
The first bell has a clearer tone.

 
2. way of speaking: the way somebody says something as an indicator of what that person is feeling or thinking
a defiant tone in her voice
 


Bubba

So it is a friendly thread after all....  :huepfenlol2:

Bubba, whether you take offence or not is irrelvant to the fact that none was given.  I certainly don't take insult when I don't know the qualifications of the source.  Just not worth the time.

The only thing pointed out prevsiouly stemmed from your own words.  Roger offered a fair, extended and informative explanation of something.  You came back saying something to the effect "finally, someone has a clue." 

Two things there.  Roger's post, he'll be the first to admit, was informative, accurate and even professorial.  But it wasn't in any way profound.  Just the intro lectures to Freshman classes in Business 101 and Finance 101. 

Grasping that post, therefore, with "finally, someone else has a clue" seems to suggest on the one hand a belief that no one else does and, conversely, that the proverbial light bulb suddenly turned on over some relatively basic information.  Neither of which were helpful to you at that point in your conversation.

You can cite rudimentary definitions as sarcastic references if necessary to feel good about your position.  That sort of nonsense is both sophomoric and (also) irrelevant.  But if it helps you please feel free.

Also not sure why you tend to get so invested in what is otherwise a pretty basic conversation.  If you want to continue the conversation I've found it enjoyable to follow so far.  If, however, it really is some sort of pissing contest you're after please know I never opened my fly to participate.  I only do that when the topic or object is worth the effort and never when it's just a recreation like the site here is supposed to be.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2007, 04:15:44 PM »

Andy, I am sure I will be speaking to the choir here, but the answer to the question you posed is; Absolutely Not.

The next gen riders are less forgiving and more demanding on product performance and quality.  There is no wa the MoCo can continue relying only on the mystic and loyalty of their customers to continually produce the growth and profitability they have enjoyed.  Likewise, it is doubtful that they can even maintain it if they only rely on mystic and loyalty.



Roger, that seems to beg an interesting question.  I know that when it got to the point that I could actually begin to choose what I rode (as opposed to riding whatever I could afford or assemble for as long as it lasted) I chose Harleys.  Not even sure that now I know why I did then.  Was just the only option in my mind.

One buying generation behind us seemed to share this inclination.  Though not as heavily.  Harley was something more than merely another option to consider. But for many there were at least options deemed worth of consideration to some extent or another.

The current entry buying generation, however, are wholly different.  Or at least it seems so from the outside looking in.  Is it your experience also that for the current set the HD product is merely another option within the mix?  For some, in fact many, it seems not even a first or a strong option.
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deucedog

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2007, 04:25:31 PM »

So it is a friendly thread after all....  :huepfenlol2:

Bubba, whether you take offence or not is irrelvant to the fact that none was given.  I certainly don't take insult when I don't know the qualifications of the source.  Just not worth the time.

The only thing pointed out prevsiouly stemmed from your own words.  Roger offered a fair, extended and informative explanation of something.  You came back saying something to the effect "finally, someone has a clue." 

Two things there.  Roger's post, he'll be the first to admit, was informative, accurate and even professorial.  But it wasn't in any way profound.  Just the intro lectures to Freshman classes in Business 101 and Finance 101. 

Grasping that post, therefore, with "finally, someone else has a clue" seems to suggest on the one hand a belief that no one else does and, conversely, that the proverbial light bulb suddenly turned on over some relatively basic information.  Neither of which were helpful to you at that point in your conversation.

You can cite rudimentary definitions as sarcastic references if necessary to feel good about your position.  That sort of nonsense is both sophomoric and (also) irrelevant.  But if it helps you please feel free.

Also not sure why you tend to get so invested in what is otherwise a pretty basic conversation.  If you want to continue the conversation I've found it enjoyable to follow so far.  If, however, it really is some sort of pissing contest you're after please know I never opened my fly to participate.  I only do that when the topic or object is worth the effort and never when it's just a recreation like the site here is supposed to be.

Bravo! You are a gentleman and a scholar.  Very well written.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #97 on: September 12, 2007, 04:37:53 PM »

Roger, that seems to beg an interesting question.  I know that when it got to the point that I could actually begin to choose what I rode (as opposed to riding whatever I could afford or assemble for as long as it lasted) I chose Harleys.  Not even sure that now I know why I did then.  Was just the only option in my mind.

One buying generation behind us seemed to share this inclination.  Though not as heavily.  Harley was something more than merely another option to consider. But for many there were at least options deemed worth of consideration to some extent or another.

The current entry buying generation, however, are wholly different.  Or at least it seems so from the outside looking in.  Is it your experience also that for the current set the HD product is merely another option within the mix?  For some, in fact many, it seems not even a first or a strong option.

Don I'm not sure where I stand generationally in your eyes but at 38 years old I seem to be on the younger side of the CVO HD market. I rode rice rockets because when I was in my late teens I thought of HD as an "old man's bike" and wouldn't be caught dead on one. Then as my finances started to get better and my cash flow increased I had a little more "play money" and had matured a bit and started to like the looks of the new Harley's especially the Fatboy. So I started to look around and couldn't find one at any local dealer and EBAY wasn't quite the site it is today so I ventured into my local selling newspaper.Its quite the jump in price from my FZR 600, I was really uninformed and saw a deal on a Fatboy 4000.00 less than new with low miles when I tried to insure it I found out it was not a HD1 frame and was a composite ,we all know what that is. So when I grew old of it I decided I want a bagger and through EBAY I found my SERK and the rest as we know is history.The reason I say this is that I have never bought a Harley from a dealer because the bikes i have wanted were all to highly priced for me and as you see we can get greatr deals for an used scoot. I hope to someday buy a new ride but there is always a deal to be had if you have the patience to wait for it. As for the new generation of purchasers they have the internet and computer savvy on their side and won't be taken by dealers who charge more than the MSRP of anything. Sorry if I rambled but I felt like hunting and pecking for a bit.  Later,Q
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #98 on: September 12, 2007, 04:46:00 PM »

Don I'm not sure where I stand generationally in your eyes but at 38 years old I seem to be on the younger side of the CVO HD market. I rode rice rockets because when I was in my late teens I thought of HD as an "old man's bike" and wouldn't be caught dead on one. Then as my finances started to get better and my cash flow increased I had a little more "play money" and had matured a bit and started to like the looks of the new Harley's especially the Fatboy. So I started to look around and couldn't find one at any local dealer and EBAY wasn't quite the site it is today so I ventured into my local selling newspaper.Its quite the jump in price from my FZR 600, I was really uninformed and saw a deal on a Fatboy 4000.00 less than new with low miles when I tried to insure it I found out it was not a HD1 frame and was a composite ,we all know what that is. So when I grew old of it I decided I want a bagger and through EBAY I found my SERK and the rest as we know is history.The reason I say this is that I have never bought a Harley from a dealer because the bikes i have wanted were all to highly priced for me and as you see we can get greatr deals for an used scoot. I hope to someday buy a new ride but there is always a deal to be had if you have the patience to wait for it. As for the new generation of purchasers they have the internet and computer savvy on their side and won't be taken by dealers who charge more than the MSRP of anything. Sorry if I rambled but I felt like hunting and pecking for a bit.  Later,Q

Thanks John.  That's the kind of insight that really helps to illustrate the question on my mind.  I'm 46 so we're close enough to share the same societal history but we'd be considered a "buying generation" apart.  Ten years or so can make a big differnece in what you grew up and then are stuck with liking for the rest of your life.

Agree with you completely on the current trends though.  So much information is out there, so easily and readily available and to a group of people that have grown up both using it and expecting it.  A buying group used to choices made available by the scales of international manufacturing and expecting full information when buying has got to be a tough nut to crack based on mystique alone.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #99 on: September 12, 2007, 04:48:45 PM »

Glad to help. Damn my hands hurt.  >:(  :bananarock:
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #100 on: September 12, 2007, 04:55:19 PM »

Once upon a time a deal was struck with a hand shake.  I guess I still feel there is a lot of importance in that. Recently we looked at a new Red CVO and I was not impressed with the price I was offered on my trade and there was a bit of a jump in price from MSRP. I guess I started thinking about finances more than goodies and decided to go with upgrades over a new ride. But throughout that process (thinnin') I remained loyal to the gentleman I was working with... we shook on the potential deal and I was done (no more input needed.) I believe Scott would always be there trying to ensure the customer relationship was well maintained.

Bubba, I don't know where in KY you are, but I got a feeling through reading this thread (that you started) that you are another that will look you in the eye, and do everything in your power to satisfy the customer. I respect that and applaud your honesty. If we figure out where we are going to settle (when we retire) I would welcome an opportunity to do some business with ya. Who knows, could lead to some riding and maybe a couple three beer, (just not all at once).

Thanks for the insight on the view from the other side of the fence. :drink:
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #101 on: September 12, 2007, 04:59:39 PM »

boston HD was bought out by rossmeyer

Neal:  Drop by and pick up a T-shirt for Spiderman.  Make sure it has "Rossmeyer" written on it somewhere.  I think he and Bruce are big buds from 'way back. ;D ;D ;D

But back to the topic--specifically the question of younger generations and the MoCo.  When I started riding back in the 1970's, it seems like HD was regarded as the ultimate motorcycle, even in the AMF days.  I remember seeing oil-leaking Sportsters on the showrrom floor and still admiring them.  Whether we aspired to own one someday or not, we all recognized them as the undeniable capstone of the industry.  The younger guys I run into today don't see that.  They don't have the same fascination with HD that was so prevalent among riders in my youth.  If anything, they're deriding the brand for much the same reasons that have been brought up here--cost and quality, as well as lack of performance as new.  They look to BMW or Ducati, or one of the new generation Japanese touring/cruisers as the top of the heap, depending on riding style.

Another difference from the 1970's riders to today is the range of choice among motorcycles.  HD has much more direct competition now than then.  And among brands already established among younger riders.  It was one thing for say, a Honda guy to graduate to Harley when the biggest thing Honda had was the 750-4.  But now Honda (and a whole bunch of others) have direct competition in the lineup.

And these are also people who suffered through the bad old days of american cars, forever souring them on the big 3 from Detroit.  I think it was Iacocca (not sure) who acknowledged that the junk they shipped in the 1970's had cost Chrysler a whole generation of buyers.  Anyway, there are a whole bunch of younger people who won't even consider an american made car--they expect near perfect reliability for their money.  People now aren't the do-it-yourselfers that our generation pretty much had to be.  I don't see many people willingly taking their spare time to repair their cars (or bikes) like they used to.  Maintenance and optional tinkering is different from mandatory, "fix it or push it" repairs.  Especially at the price level that HD lives in.

Anyway, HD may be arrogant, but I don't think they're stupid.  I'm sure they're brainstorming every day about how to capture another generation of buyers.  I just think it will be interesting to see how they go about doing that.  It's going to take more than t-shirts.

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greglyon

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #102 on: September 12, 2007, 05:17:01 PM »

As for the new generation of purchasers they have the internet and computer savvy on their side and won't be taken by dealers who charge more than the MSRP of anything. Sorry if I rambled but I felt like hunting and pecking for a bit.  Later,Q


Dead on!  I would add that sooner rather than later a dealer will be lucky to get MSRP 
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #103 on: September 12, 2007, 07:06:26 PM »

So it is a friendly thread after all....  :huepfenlol2:

Bubba, whether you take offence or not is irrelvant to the fact that none was given.  I certainly don't take insult when I don't know the qualifications of the source.  Just not worth the time.

The only thing pointed out prevsiouly stemmed from your own words.  Roger offered a fair, extended and informative explanation of something.  You came back saying something to the effect "finally, someone has a clue." 

Two things there.  Roger's post, he'll be the first to admit, was informative, accurate and even professorial.  But it wasn't in any way profound.  Just the intro lectures to Freshman classes in Business 101 and Finance 101. 

Grasping that post, therefore, with "finally, someone else has a clue" seems to suggest on the one hand a belief that no one else does and, conversely, that the proverbial light bulb suddenly turned on over some relatively basic information.  Neither of which were helpful to you at that point in your conversation.

You can cite rudimentary definitions as sarcastic references if necessary to feel good about your position.  That sort of nonsense is both sophomoric and (also) irrelevant.  But if it helps you please feel free.

Also not sure why you tend to get so invested in what is otherwise a pretty basic conversation.  If you want to continue the conversation I've found it enjoyable to follow so far.  If, however, it really is some sort of pissing contest you're after please know I never opened my fly to participate.  I only do that when the topic or object is worth the effort and never when it's just a recreation like the site here is supposed to be.

WOW Two I AM IMPRESSED ...if I had to guess I bet you use to ride a Goldwing and smoke a pipe ....ofcourse its just a guess.  :nixweiss:

Bubba
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deucedog

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #104 on: September 12, 2007, 07:13:43 PM »

WOW Two I AM IMPRESSED ...if I had to guess I bet you use to ride a Goldwing and smoke a pipe ....ofcourse its just a guess.  :nixweiss:

Bubba

How sad of a response that was, shame on you...and you also proved the man's point.  :(
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #105 on: September 12, 2007, 07:19:41 PM »

Once upon a time a deal was struck with a hand shake.  I guess I still feel there is a lot of importance in that. Recently we looked at a new Red CVO and I was not impressed with the price I was offered on my trade and there was a bit of a jump in price from MSRP. I guess I started thinking about finances more than goodies and decided to go with upgrades over a new ride. But throughout that process (thinnin') I remained loyal to the gentleman I was working with... we shook on the potential deal and I was done (no more input needed.) I believe Scott would always be there trying to ensure the customer relationship was well maintained.

Bubba, I don't know where in KY you are, but I got a feeling through reading this thread (that you started) that you are another that will look you in the eye, and do everything in your power to satisfy the customer. I respect that and applaud your honesty. If we figure out where we are going to settle (when we retire) I would welcome an opportunity to do some business with ya. Who knows, could lead to some riding and maybe a couple three beer, (just not all at once).

Thanks for the insight on the view from the other side of the fence. :drink:


Mr. Thank you ...its not often someone on here appreciates my candor .... and I have to admit your a pretty good judge of charactor ...I obviously do not sell everyone I talk to a bike ..for a number of reasons I do miss a few ...however it won't be because I lied or misled them ....you can't be successful if this business for over 30 years by being dishonest ... I do not appologise for selling a great product for a fair profit ...my definition of fair maybe different then someone elses ..we use to call it "horse trading" ...but of course those days are long gone .... as for finding a place to retire it would be HARD to find a more beautiful place then western Kentucky ...I moved up here last year from Huntsville Alabama .....starting to really enjoy it here and will look forward to meeting you sometime.

Bubba
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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #106 on: September 12, 2007, 07:22:25 PM »

How sad of a response that was, shame on you...and you also proved the man's point.  :(

Deuce take a chill pill hoss ....there was supposed to be a little humor in my last remark ....gezzzzzz  :oops:

Bubba
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #107 on: September 12, 2007, 07:55:04 PM »

Neal:  Drop by and pick up a T-shirt for Spiderman.  Make sure it has "Rossmeyer" written on it somewhere.  I think he and Bruce are big buds from 'way back. ;D ;D ;D

But back to the topic--specifically the question of younger generations and the MoCo.  When I started riding back in the 1970's, it seems like HD was regarded as the ultimate motorcycle, even in the AMF days.  I remember seeing oil-leaking Sportsters on the showrrom floor and still admiring them.  Whether we aspired to own one someday or not, we all recognized them as the undeniable capstone of the industry.  The younger guys I run into today don't see that.  They don't have the same fascination with HD that was so prevalent among riders in my youth.  If anything, they're deriding the brand for much the same reasons that have been brought up here--cost and quality, as well as lack of performance as new.  They look to BMW or Ducati, or one of the new generation Japanese touring/cruisers as the top of the heap, depending on riding style.

Another difference from the 1970's riders to today is the range of choice among motorcycles.  HD has much more direct competition now than then.  And among brands already established among younger riders.  It was one thing for say, a Honda guy to graduate to Harley when the biggest thing Honda had was the 750-4.  But now Honda (and a whole bunch of others) have direct competition in the lineup.

And these are also people who suffered through the bad old days of american cars, forever souring them on the big 3 from Detroit.  I think it was Iacocca (not sure) who acknowledged that the junk they shipped in the 1970's had cost Chrysler a whole generation of buyers.  Anyway, there are a whole bunch of younger people who won't even consider an american made car--they expect near perfect reliability for their money.  People now aren't the do-it-yourselfers that our generation pretty much had to be.  I don't see many people willingly taking their spare time to repair their cars (or bikes) like they used to.  Maintenance and optional tinkering is different from mandatory, "fix it or push it" repairs.  Especially at the price level that HD lives in.

Anyway, HD may be arrogant, but I don't think they're stupid. I'm sure they're brainstorming every day about how to capture another generation of buyers.  I just think it will be interesting to see how they go about doing that.  It's going to take more than t-shirts.

I believe that that was the reason the HD got into the Beginner's Riding program based on Buell Blasts on their property.  They need to get younger riders as buyers.  I looked at the HD web site Investors section and read the annual age of a HD buyer, two years ago it was 47 and this year it was 48.  That's not good for the company's future.  Recently they started to target female riders (who doesn't) :).
My nephew and his friends around 30 love the Ducati's plain and simple.





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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #108 on: September 12, 2007, 08:15:41 PM »

You know guy's I find it amazing that I have not made a post on the web site in over 3 months and I make one little bitty thread and here we have 8 pages ..... makes you wanna go "hemmmmmmmm"  :nixweiss: ..Reminds me of when I was a kid and we use to play "pitch up and smear" ....you old guys will know what Im talking about!

Bubba
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HUEY

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #109 on: September 12, 2007, 08:56:55 PM »

Hard to feel sorry for some when my "home" dealer is Bob Schultz HD.....
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RetiredOF

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #110 on: September 12, 2007, 09:49:33 PM »

Huey,

What's your association with the H model?

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RJ749

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2007, 11:18:51 AM »

Roger, that seems to beg an interesting question.  I know that when it got to the point that I could actually begin to choose what I rode (as opposed to riding whatever I could afford or assemble for as long as it lasted) I chose Harleys.  Not even sure that now I know why I did then.  Was just the only option in my mind.

One buying generation behind us seemed to share this inclination.  Though not as heavily.  Harley was something more than merely another option to consider. But for many there were at least options deemed worth of consideration to some extent or another.

The current entry buying generation, however, are wholly different.  Or at least it seems so from the outside looking in.  Is it your experience also that for the current set the HD product is merely another option within the mix?   For some, in fact many, it seems not even a first or a strong option.

Don, not really sure that the new stuff is hitting its intended mark either.  It isn't only HD that is searching for the "magic" with these new buyers, many manufacturers from all segments are looking to capture there $$$$.

Its a tough crowd now, the farther we get from the brand loyal nature of our partents the tougher it gets to market to the younger buyers. 

Anymore a hot streak for a product is six months in many cases.  Sure there are the Toyotas and Hondas that sell in mass, but they really are just the vanilla wafers of today.  Safe buys and no excuses for the decision to buy one.

But when a company like Harley is trying to build a new segment or capture one with a product, it is a tough road when the segment is filled with independant thinkers that are looking for instant gratification and if they don't find it are immediately onto the next possibile source for it.

Look at the release of the new iPhone and the nearly immediate drop in cost.  Success is beginning to be difined is a very short timeframe.

Only time will tell if the MoCo can capture the dreams of this new group.  IMO, the farther they (HD) stray from their roots, the harder it will be to maintain what has captivated riders for the past century.
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RetiredOF

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2007, 11:38:48 AM »

I've wanted a Harley since I was 12 so the only decision for me was model/color.  However, if the quality doesn't reach the $$, I'm not 100% what my next bike will be.

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KentuckyHarleyDude

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2007, 12:34:17 PM »

Don, not really sure that the new stuff is hitting its intended mark either.  It isn't only HD that is searching for the "magic" with these new buyers, many manufacturers from all segments are looking to capture there $$$$.

Its a tough crowd now, the farther we get from the brand loyal nature of our partents the tougher it gets to market to the younger buyers. 

Anymore a hot streak for a product is six months in many cases.  Sure there are the Toyotas and Hondas that sell in mass, but they really are just the vanilla wafers of today.  Safe buys and no excuses for the decision to buy one.

But when a company like Harley is trying to build a new segment or capture one with a product, it is a tough road when the segment is filled with independant thinkers that are looking for instant gratification and if they don't find it are immediately onto the next possibile source for it.

Look at the release of the new iPhone and the nearly immediate drop in cost.  Success is beginning to be difined is a very short timeframe.

Only time will tell if the MoCo can capture the dreams of this new group.  IMO, the farther they (HD) stray from their roots, the harder it will be to maintain what has captivated riders for the past century.

HEAR HEAR RJOB ...I could not agree with your conclusions more ....Harley needs to remember "To thine onself be true" ...stay the course !!

Bubba
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miker

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2007, 12:52:18 PM »

As in the past, remember these?

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HUEY

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2007, 09:47:45 PM »

Huey,

What's your association with the H model?



Flew H-models with 158th Avn Bn and then, was in the unit that did the field testing to replace and we were the first to receive the Blackhawk

10 years active duty, 6 in the Infantry and 4 in aviation with the 101st
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J-Carr

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #116 on: October 02, 2007, 03:56:48 PM »

 :soapbox: Be forwarned... Rambling preaching post follows~!

This post seemed to start off with good intentions to inform us of the product decrease and I appreciate it.  It helped make me feel good about not waiting for the anniversary color and switching to my "Nemo" which now that I've seen both bikes in person, I am very glad I did.  Thanks for that!  Along the way it has shown the fustration at the delaers and MoCo.   Although I'm a bit angry at the MoCo for not responding better to the problems that are out there, I have no choice.  I refuse to ride anything but a Harley.  So I must put up with the MoCo's business tactics.  I went the Japanese route with cars for a short while and I'll never drive a foreign car again!  Hopefully they will learn their lesson before it's too late an I have to drive that god awful space ship Victory calls a touring bike.

Ya know... It's a shame that so many of our peers on this site have not had better experiences with their dealers.  There's another thread on here asking how much we paid.  I went respond, but I don't know what I paid.  Not because I'm rich or stupid but becuase I trust my dealer.  They charged me MSRP plus freight and setup.  They charge everyone that.  On every bike.  The freight and setup charge (about $500) is less then the benefits I get including some free services, free shirts, free congrats plaque.   Yes I know... It's not free, it's built into the price and fees.  But the fact is the price I paid was not what they could get.  It was less.  There's a waiting list.  The price I paid in '94 was the same.  There was a one year waiting list at that time.  And if this market slides further the dealers that are adding all the prices over MSRP or claiming that they have to add this or that, etc. are the once who are going to be at the dance without a partner.  I drive by a dealer 5 days a week.  I never stop there.  They've been know to play some games.  Good for them.  Let them.  They played them with me.  I've spent a fortune over the last 13 years at my delaer.  They lost.  Even if they don't know it.  How much?  $150,000.  Sure I've sold all of my previous bikes, but I've still spent that amount at "MY" dealer.  My $35,000 CVO and my wife's $17,000 (With accessories) Street Bob in the last year alone.

I choose to drive 10 miles past my house after passing this dealer who plays these games to get to "MY" dealer. Becuase they treat me right.  I've posted why I think they're good elsewhere so I wont preach about that here.  It sounds like many of you don't feel you're treated right.  I encourage you to find a dealer that does. They're out there.

Bubba, If your customers feel that way about your delaership I commend you and your owners.  Oh and I sold my last three bikes to friends at trade in value because I wanted them to have good homes.  I take in strays too.  Sucker am I!  LOL. 

Those of you who actually read this all the way to here... WHAT ARE YOU DOING?  GET OUT AND RIDE!   :P

J-Carr

P.S. There's a thread for people to list the dealers they feel are good.  I posted MY dealer there since I did not want this post to be an advertisement.
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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #117 on: October 02, 2007, 05:16:19 PM »

Hell of a good post JC ....I do not profess to be THE "Bike God" nor will I tell you that we are the BEST dealer in the nation ...I will tell you that if you deal with me I will tell you the truth as I know it ...it may not always be what you might want to hear but it will be honest ...I appreciate your remark about "trusting " your dealer ...now we all are in the business to make a fair profit on our product and most all buyers want to get as much for their hard earned money as they can and I cant blame them ..thats only good business on both ends but somewhere in that there has to develope a mutual trust .. sometimes $$$ eroads that trust ...sometimes its the dealer who gets "greedy" and wants to ask a premium on special bikes ...or sometimes the customer feels he can save $500.00 by driving 500 miles so he sells out his local dealer ...either way trying to develope a mutual trust can be hard to do which makes loyalty a rare thing in this business ...sounds like you and your dealer have mutual respect for one another and I think thats GREAT and i tip my hat to you AND your dealer ....

Bubba
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RetiredOF

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Re: Latest from Harley on the lack of Inventory
« Reply #118 on: October 02, 2007, 10:05:40 PM »

Flew H-models with 158th Avn Bn and then, was in the unit that did the field testing to replace and we were the first to receive the Blackhawk

10 years active duty, 6 in the Infantry and 4 in aviation with the 101st



Just curious, I fhopped rides with the Razorbacks out of Tan Son Nhut and later was a gunner on the N model in Florida.
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