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[spook120]

Just on Yahoo finance.  Appears HD is being sued by US gov. for selling anti emission devices...the Screaming Eagle tuners.  Not sure what that will be all about...just bringing it to your attention. 

[SHRADER]

Aug 18 (Reuters) - The U.S. Justice Department has sued Harley-Davidson Inc for allegedly violating environmental laws, court filings showed on Thursday.

The lawsuit, filed on behalf of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), accused the company of violating the Clean Air Act and on-highway motorcycle regulations.

The lawsuit is related to 12,682 motorcycles that did not conform with EPA regulations governing engine emission standards, according to court filings.

The civil lawsuit, filed in the federal court in Washington, D.C., seeks to impose fines for sale of non-compliant motorcycles.

Harley-Davidson's shares were down 7.5 percent.

[havenolife]

News just said it was settled of a unclosed amount and..........NO MORE PRO TUNER'S !!! lol

[sadunbar]

Perhaps the end result of this action will be the MOCO will now have to start selling motorcycles which will no longer requiring tuning devices to correct their extreme lean, hot running condition in stock configuration!  (a guy can hope!)

If the new single cam motors have corrected the oiling deficiencies of the twin cam motors, maybe lifters can once again become a reliable component.    (as long as we're hoping...)

Sadly, the compensator has not yet been mentioned as being altered on the new configured motors, but maybe that's a hole card he dealers plan use to seal the deal on new bike sales...  (o.k., now we've moved from hoping to dreaming...)

 

[TN]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-18/hog-slaughtered-harley-davidson-tumbles-after-us-accuses-it-evading-emissions-requir

[110tHunDer]

Depending on which article you read, it cost them $12-$15 million to settle.  Another article said they sold 339,000 tuners between 2008-2015.  What's one cost, $500?  They are still money ahead.  And the stock has already recovered to only down 2%.

[DCFIREMANN]

Harley is paying a 12 million dollar fine for the sale of it's Race Tuner. They must stop selling them by August 23rd.

The EPA and the Federal Government strikes again!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Twolanerider]

Was worse than that:

The Milwaukee-based manufacturer will pay a $12 million civil penalty and $3 million toward environmental efforts in a deal with the Environmental Protection Agency after the agency accused the company of selling about 340,000 "super tuners" that bolstered power but also raised harmful emissions.

The company agreed to offer to buy back all of the devices, cease selling the tuners and destroy them.

From a USA today article here: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/08/18/harley-davidson-epa-emissions-settlement-defeat-devices/88944648/


No idea what the documentation requirements will be for the buy back but if anyone is thinking about trying another tuner this might be a chance to get money back from Harley and try out the new one with then little new money out of pocket.

[skratch]

Depending on which article you read, it cost them $12-$15 million to settle.  Another article said they sold 339,000 tuners between 2008-2015.  What's one cost, $500?  They are still money ahead.  And the stock has already recovered to only down 2%.

no, they aren't money ahead.  not only did they have the fine, but they are going to be required to buy back those devices.

Harley-Davidson will pay a $12 million civil penalty and a separate $3 million on a project in local communities that replaces wood-burning stoves with cleaner-burning ones to mitigate air pollution, according to an Environmental Protection Agency statement. Harley-Davidson also has to stop selling and buy back the devices that were on the motorcycles as part of the settlement.

[Twolanerider]

Depending on which article you read, it cost them $12-$15 million to settle.  Another article said they sold 339,000 tuners between 2008-2015.  What's one cost, $500?  They are still money ahead.  And the stock has already recovered to only down 2%.

Part of the settlement was an agreement to offer to buy them back from customers too.  So it'll be more than just the $12M penalty and $3 environmental remediation charge.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/08/18/harley-davidson-epa-emissions-settlement-defeat-devices/88944648/

[DCFIREMANN]

I just put my hands on 3 of them. BTW the Super Tuner as we know it will not work on the 2017 models. HD just released the new Super Tuner today for the 2017 and later models. I told my parts guy to order all he can get. The part number is not obsolete as of 135 PM Eastern Time!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[charles05663]

I wonder how this is going to impact other vendors who sell tuners like TTS, Thunder-Max, etc.  It looks like the days of tuners may be limited.

 

[110tHunDer]

Awesomeness!  I can sell it back and buy a new TTS!

[HarleyJeffOregon]

I am not giving mine up!!!!
LMAO

[grc]

As I've mentioned many times over the years, the bogus "for race use only" disclaimers were just a way to knowingly break the law without penalty.  Now finally, after getting away with it for over a decade, the Feds have finally figured out what everyone else has known forever.

As of August 23, 2016, they are required to stop selling SEPST's and are required to buy back and destroy all SEPST's in dealer inventories.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-sues-harley-davidson-environmental-violations-151041860--finance.html?ref=gs

Jerry

[Grizzly]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-18/u-s-sues-harley-for-selling-emission-control-defeat-devices

[Mr. Warlock]

Perhaps the end result of this action will be the MOCO will now have to start selling motorcycles which will no longer requiring tuning devices to correct their extreme lean, hot running condition in stock configuration!  (a guy can hope!)

What I think this really means is that we will be stuck with the extreme lean and hot running machines with no way to fix. Especially if they scare TTS and others away.

[BigLew55]

I just called Fuel Moto and ordered my Power Vision!

[tysndys]

This would have to put a wrench in the wheel of all the hop up kits Harley sells. What good is a 117 kit if you can't tune it? As mentioned the after market guys are in the crosshairs now. Gotta love those non elected bureaucrats running things.

[wtfdskin]

They did the same thing for us diesel pickup guys. EPA dropped the hammer on edge, smarty, h & s and a host of other tuner manufacturers

Guess I better grab mine quick before the price doubles.

[4fun]

Sounds like another money grab, 12 million to the government and 3 for the environmental mitigation.  Why not have it all go to the mitigation if it was so bad!

Oh I forgot, we need to keep the beuracrats employed!

[HarleyJeffOregon]

Sounds like another money grab, 12 million to the government and 3 for the environmental mitigation.  Why not have it all go to the mitigation if it was so bad!

Oh I forgot, we need to keep the beuracrats employed!

No kidding!

[SSTuner]

Oh boy,

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/harley-davidson-to-pay-dollar12-mln-fine-over-motorcycle-emissions/ar-BBvMpem?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=UP97DHP

[bigchuck]

I have one they can buy back

[tysndys]

Interesting concept, buy them back. Damage is done your ecm has been modified. What am I missing? No way they will take back used ones? As well now "the man" knows which bikes no longer meet epa rules.

[danner55]

They can buy mine back!

 I have the TTS now!

[Magnut1]

I have a Thundermax,  they will have to pry it from my cold, dead, wiring harness!

[kojak]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/harley-davidson-to-pay-dollar12-mln-fine-over-motorcycle-emissions/ar-BBvMpem?li=BBnbfcL

[Pan1]

I am sure this settlement has been in the works for a long time. The timing of the 23rd is so the moco can sell out the majority of the 2016s before the change to the new engine platform. The dealers are the ones really hurt as they will have to tune with aftermarket parts and they can't offer the hp upgrade options on new bikes.

[TN]

Funny on the timing here, with HD coming out with new electronics and such (rumored to be bosch on the 2017). Some HD shops refuse to work on bikes 10 yrs old now.
A new area in proprietary parts.


hmmmmmmmmm

[phato1]

I'm with those Wondering what(if any) effect this will have on the aftermarket devices going forward 

[Yellow09SERG]

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/harley-davidson-pay-15-million-154746509.html

Sounds like maybe the next beginning of the end for the performance world. They nailed the diesel tuners a while back and now this?

[wtfdskin]

Ill be buying my fp3 immediately.

[Royalroadie]

 I switched from the Harley tuner to a TTS several years ago so I would love for them to give me back my money.

[Cajun851]

Interesting concept, buy them back. Damage is done your ecm has been modified. What am I missing? No way they will take back used ones? As well now "the man" knows which bikes no longer meet epa rules.

I agree!! The damage is done. The tuner has already re-flashed the ECM and is not connected to the bike. And I just bought the tuner a month ago. Here's my question though, and hope I don't sound completely ignorant so forgive me...I didn't know the Harley Super Tuner was considered an 'after market' product. V&H Fuelpak, V&H FP3, Power Commander V, Cobra Fi2000, Power Vision, etc., I would call aftermarket because they're not Harley products. Either way like everyone else has said...go ahead and buy it back so I can get something else. I'll be heading to my dealership tomorrow and ask what they've been directed to do. I'm sure their phones will be ringing off the hook.

Ride safe!!

[wtfdskin]

Are they "vin locked" like diesel tuners are?

[Cajun851]

Are they "vin locked" like diesel tuners are?

Yep!! They're married to the particular bike...supposedly!!

[SHRADER]

I don't think Harley has to buy back all the tuners out there in the field so to speak, they only have to buy back the ones currently in dealer stock....

[FXD_TG]

I don't think Harley has to buy back all the tuners out there in the field so to speak, they only have to buy back the ones currently in dealer stock....

Yup... "Under the agreement, Harley-Davidson said it will no longer sell the racing tuners. The company also will offer to buy back all such tuners in stock at Harley-Davidson dealerships across the country and destroy them."

[wtfdskin]

So for a used tuner to work the original bike it was on must have the stock mapping flashed to the ecm to release the tuner, so unless you are buying another brand tuner the buyback program is a joke. You would be stuck with whatever mapping you have loaded at the time.

I could be way off there as im new to these but very familiar with the diesel ones.

Edit. Posted same time

[Sarhan]

Will this work on international market?

[Cajun851]

So for a used tuner to work the original bike it was on must have the stock mapping flashed to the ecm to release the tuner, so unless you are buying another brand tuner the buyback program is a joke. You would be stuck with whatever mapping you have loaded at the time.
I could be way off there as im new to these but very familiar with the diesel ones.
Edit. Posted same time

No. And this is my understanding from the dealership. Once it's mapped to that bike, it can't be used on any other bike regardless of what you do to the bike it was on. The tuner basically acts as a go between to tuner and the bike and any changes are recorded to THAT tuner. Now, I've seen posts on eBay where guys are claiming they can wipe a used unit back to factory settings. I don't know how true that is, but I certainly wouldn't trust any tuner that was 'wiped'. I guess time will tell as to how this will all play out.

[wtfdskin]

Good info to know before I buy a used tuner. Thank you.

Im not needing custom tuning, just want to decat and adjust for that.  Everything else is staying stock.

[Eqcons]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37127576

[Cajun851]

Good info to know before I buy a used tuner. Thank you.
Im not needing custom tuning, just want to decat and adjust for that.  Everything else is staying stock.

Anytime!!

[Cajun851]

Folks, here is the actual terms of the 'settlement' from the EPA's own website.

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/harley-davidson-clean-air-act-settlement

This part is interesting...

Injunctive Relief
Under the settlement, Harley-Davidson will immediately stop selling the tuners, buy back all of the tuners in stock at their dealerships and destroy the tuners. The company has also agreed to obtain certification from the California Air Resources Board for any tuners it sells in the future. These certifications will demonstrate that new tuners do not cause their motorcycles to exceed their certified emissions limits. Harley-Davidson will also conduct tests on tuner-equipped motorcycles and provide the results to EPA to guarantee that their motorcycles remain in compliance with EPA certification requirements for emissions.
Harley-Davidson will also ensure that all of its future motorcycle models intended for sale in the United States are fully certified by EPA.

Well, I'm guessing from the injunctive relief they are NOT buying back tuners from customers. CRAP!!! I could have used some pocket change. 

[RAINEY]

There will always be race tuners and tuners available.  I seems that the big deal is that H-D being the manufacturer making vehicles that meet the requirements and then knowingly selling tuners and marketing them to alter street used motorcycles.  They only way to crack down on the end user is to have a required emissions test like some states have foe cars and trucks.

My nickels worth
Jason

[Cajun851]

...and check this out!!

Civil Penalty
Harley-Davidson will also pay a $12 million civil penalty and spend about $3 million to fund a project to replace conventional woodstoves with cleaner-burning stoves in communities with extensive woodstove use.


What a joke!!! Really??? Fund a project to replace conventional woodstoves??? 

[FlaHeatWave]

...and check this out!!

Civil Penalty
Harley-Davidson will also pay a $12 million civil penalty and spend about $3 million to fund a project to replace conventional woodstoves with cleaner-burning stoves in communities with extensive woodstove use.


What a joke!!! Really??? Fund a project to replace conventional woodstoves??? 

I guess the EPA is going to have to give the Amish an exemption??

Ever since cali started cracking down a few years back, I was wondering when this  $hit was going to hit the fan??

[OBB]

So how long until someone finds a hack to make the Street Tuner have the same capabilities as the Pro Tuner?

[grc]

There will always be race tuners and tuners available.  I seems that the big deal is that H-D being the manufacturer making vehicles that meet the requirements and then knowingly selling tuners and marketing them to alter street used motorcycles.  They only way to crack down on the end user is to have a required emissions test like some states have foe cars and trucks.

My nickels worth
Jason

Very true.  The EPA has always focused on the manufacturers and their dealers in the auto industry when it came to compliance with anti-tampering portions of the law.  You can't walk into your typical Ford or Chevy dealership and buy Ford or Chevy branded emission system tampering devices over the counter, but there are plenty of aftermarket folks selling chips and various other items.  The only organization I've seen go after the aftermarket is CARB, who busted Power Commander years ago and hit them with a big fine (that's why they now have two versions on their website, the street legal product no one buys and the original version).  The big difference with motorcycles and Harley is that the EPA has always looked the other way for them on all kinds of issues, as has the NHTSA.  The same issues that resulted in forced recalls for car companies, like stumble/stall complaints for instance, have never been recalled or corrected by H-D.  Instead, they would sell you a SEPST so you could pay to fix the defect yourself.  They've had a very long and lucrative run breaking the law, and now they will have to start providing bikes that actually run properly right out of the crate.  I hope EPA follows up on this along with NHTSA and holds their feet to the fire on making the stock calibrations meet performance and safety standards just like everyone else. 

Jerry

[Indenial]

Big question:  If you presently have one installed and have mods done to your engine, will the HD dealership still dyno it and use the tuner?  Or will they be required to remove it?

[grc]

Big question:  If you presently have one installed and have mods done to your engine, will the HD dealership still dyno it and use the tuner?  Or will they be required to remove it?

You'll usually find much better tuners at places other than Harley dealerships anyway, so for most it won't be an issue.  As for all the mods and "tuning" they've done in the past, that was all illegal but of course they got away with it.  The question now is will the EPA start checking and fining individual dealers for tampering.  I guess time will tell just how serious they are.

Jerry

[Unbalanced]

Apparently Harley will no longer be available or selling them after the 23rd.   Hearing that Mothership will be buying back any stock at the stores.   If you want one best consider it this weekend.

[CVOStreetglide]

You'll usually find much better tuners at places other than Harley dealerships anyway, so for most it won't be an issue.  As for all the mods and "tuning" they've done in the past, that was all illegal but of course they got away with it.  The question now is will the EPA start checking and fining individual dealers for tampering.  I guess time will tell just how serious they are.

Jerry

QUICK ANSWER: YES!! 

I think all aftermarket dealers and tuners are in BIG trouble as are exhaust manufacturers.

I'm looking forward to hearing more during Daytona Biketoberfest. 

[Cajun851]

QUICK ANSWER: YES!!  I think all aftermarket dealers and tuners are in BIG trouble as are exhaust manufacturers. I'm looking forward to hearing more during Daytona Biketoberfest.

I think you're right! That's going to be the million dollar question. What will the EPA do to those companies who have their own fuel management systems and headers? I'm pretty sure Harley doesn't manufacture or sell headers without cats so you have to depend on V&H, Rush, Cobra, Rinehart...the list goes on!!

I plan to stop at my dealership this afternoon and ask what they know. I'd like to know if the tuner I just purchased from them a month ago has become a $460 paperweight.    

[skreminegul07]

I see an opportunity to drive state revenue.  In MASS, bikes are exempt from emissions testing and pay only $15 yearly for inspection.  Cars pay $35.  Change the rules based on these new revelations, cha ching!

[ultrafxr]

I think you're right! That's going to be the million dollar question. What will the EPA do to those companies who have their own fuel management systems and headers? I'm pretty sure Harley doesn't manufacture or sell headers without cats so you have to depend on V&H, Rush, Cobra, Rinehart...the list goes on!!

I plan to stop at my dealership this afternoon and ask what they know. I'd like to know if the tuner I just purchased from them a month ago has become a $460 paperweight.   

If your dealer is like mine they will have no knowledge until after the dealer meeting and everything is 'officially' announced.  Of course they already have 17s in stock or at least on the way and I am sure sales, service and parts have some advance information but not available to the public.  But good luck and let us know if you get any information.

I have no first hand knowledge about the Pro Super Tuner that is being discontinued but if it is like its predecessor the Screamin' Race Tuner (SERT) which was sourced by the moco from TTS Mastertune then it comes with software to make it functional.  The SERT did and if the Pro Super Tuner does then you can make your own modifications or any tuner willing to load and work with the software can use it and the interface to tune your bike.

[CVOStreetglide]

I see an opportunity to drive state revenue.  In MASS, bikes are exempt from emissions testing and pay only $15 yearly for inspection.  Cars pay $35.  Change the rules based on these new revelations, cha ching!

If your dealer is like mine they will have no knowledge until after the dealer meeting and everything is 'officially' announced.  Of course they already have 17s in stock or at least on the way and I am sure sales, service and parts have some advance information but not available to the public.  But good luck and let us know if you get any information.

I have no first hand knowledge about the Pro Super Tuner that is being discontinued but if it is like its predecessor the Screamin' Race Tuner (SERT) which was sourced by the moco from TTS Mastertune then it comes with software to make it functional.  The SERT did and if the Pro Super Tuner does then you can make your own modifications or any tuner willing to load and work with the software can use it and the interface to tune your bike.

FYI: This is a FED thing so state laws don't mean diddily.....Monetary fines for violaters will be huge.

Besides I'm sure the FEDS will come up with some sort of hassle inspection process again.

[HUBBARD]

Hehehe.  It'll be more fun if I ain't supposed to do it.  And I'll bet money, I can still get it done.  Where there's a will, there's always a way!  Guess Ol' Hub just ain't environmentally friendly.  Ladies love Outlaws.  Later--HUBBARD 

[OBB]

So when are people that are running big engines in powerboats that have no emission equipment on it going to start getting their asses in a sling also?

[110tHunDer]

Hehehe.  It'll be more fun if I ain't supposed to do it.  And I'll bet money, I can still get it done.  Where there's a will, there's always a way!  Guess Ol' Hub just ain't environmentally friendly.  Ladies love Outlaws.  Later--HUBBARD

How much pollution can 2 cylinders make, anyway?!

[RonandJanet]

This does bring up a concern like we had with cars back in the 80s.  If they require testing of emissions on a bike they may be forcing us to go back to stock to pass. Many people just pay the fine and kept the car running good.

[HarleyJeffOregon]

How much pollution can 2 cylinders make, anyway?!

I know right!!!!

[roadrunner]

Wonder how this will affect dealer tuning and dynos.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/08/18/harley-davidson-epa-emissions-settlement-defeat-devices/88944648/

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[charles05663]

Another article from a different angle.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/harley-davidson-has-an-expensive-emissions-problem-of-its-own/

 

[OBB]

So when do the pickup trucks with the stacks coming out of the bed "rolling coal" get their leashes yanked?

[Para Bellum]

Folks, here is the actual terms of the 'settlement' from the EPA's own website.

Well, I'm guessing from the injunctive relief they are NOT buying back tuners from customers. CRAP!!! I could have used some pocket change. 

Looks that way; doesn't say anything about buying them back from the customers.

[BostonboyDH]

   I hung on to mine for a month or two after it was replaced during the 117 build then tossed it !!!

BostonBoy

[Yorktown CVO]

HD has agreed to stop selling the SE Pro Tuner as part of their settlement with the US Government on air pollution.  What affects will this have on the motor upgrade kit like the 117 ci .

[ultraswede]

What affects will this have on the motor upgrade kit like the 117 ci .

¨

HD left the field open to the aftermarket competition, so we have to do without a HD tuner.
Big loss, no I don't think so.

[glens]

HD has agreed to stop selling the SE Pro Tuner as part of their settlement with the US Government on air pollution.  What affects will this have on the motor upgrade kit like the 117 ci .

They'll still sell the street tuner, which is all that's needed with the kit to keep it compliant anyway.  The "Pro" tuner is the only one discussed in the settlement package.

Nobody's talking about the requirement that HD deny all powertrain warranty claims if the ECM's been "illegally" flashed?  This really sounds like it's to HD's benefit...

[grc]

HD has agreed to stop selling the SE Pro Tuner as part of their settlement with the US Government on air pollution.  What affects will this have on the motor upgrade kit like the 117 ci .

None.  They will still have an EPA compliant calibration for that kit just like they do now.  What they won't have is the ability to sell you illegal calibrations or the device used to install them.  So if you let them install the complete kit, nothing changes.  If you want a custom tune instead of the legal tune, then you will need to look elsewhere.  At this point there is no information floating around saying the aftermarket won't be able to supply devices to allow tuning just like they do now, but of course that could change as well.  Stay tuned.

Jerry

[grc]

They'll still sell the street tuner, which is all that's needed with the kit to keep it compliant anyway.  The "Pro" tuner is the only one discussed in the settlement package.

Nobody's talking about the requirement that HD deny all powertrain warranty claims if the ECM's been "illegally" flashed?  This really sounds like it's to HD's benefit...

I was under the impression they already did that anyway.  I know some claim they looked the other way if you used H-D parts and an H-D tuning device, and only denied warranty claims if you used aftermarket stuff, but I'm not so sure that wasn't just BS from dealerships to sell more illegal parts and tunes. 

Jerry

[HUBBARD]

"Illegal" is such an ugly word.  "Outlaw" is not only easier to pronounce, it has such a much more commanding presence.  Especially to those of us who vehemently disagree with the "cave" establishment.  This is an acronym, coined by the West Virginia Coal Association, for the environmentalist whackos, opposed to Surface Coal Mining, here in the Great State of WV. The Mountain State has the Largest, and Highest Grade Reserve of Metallurgical Coal, that currently exists on the Planet.  Metallurgical Coal is Bituminous, and is required to make Steel.  Steam Coal, which is of lower quality, is used to make Electricity.  WV has in place, currently, 51 BILLION tons, of Minable, Recoverable, Met & Steam Coal!  In 1863, it's reported that WV had 63 BILLION tons of Coal in place.  So, in 153 years, we have mined 12 BILLION tons of our Coal.  Coal will be here when Gabriel blows the horn!  It's a damn shame that the "cave" people have ruined the Coal Industry, and the livelihood of tens, and possibly hundreds of thousands of people. BTW, C.A.V.E., acronym for: Citizens Against Virtually Everything.  Later--HUBBARD

[glens]

Folks, here is the actual terms of the 'settlement' from the EPA's own website.

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/harley-davidson-clean-air-act-settlement

This part is interesting...

Injunctive Relief
Under the settlement, Harley-Davidson will immediately stop selling the tuners, buy back all of the tuners in stock at their dealerships and destroy the tuners. The company has also agreed to obtain certification from the California Air Resources Board for any tuners it sells in the future. These certifications will demonstrate that new tuners do not cause their motorcycles to exceed their certified emissions limits. Harley-Davidson will also conduct tests on tuner-equipped motorcycles and provide the results to EPA to guarantee that their motorcycles remain in compliance with EPA certification requirements for emissions.
Harley-Davidson will also ensure that all of its future motorcycle models intended for sale in the United States are fully certified by EPA.

Well, I'm guessing from the injunctive relief they are NOT buying back tuners from customers. CRAP!!! I could have used some pocket change. 

If you read on through, you'll see that they specifically will not be buying back any subject tuners that have already been sold to the end-user ("bold" emphasis mine):

13. Buyback and Destruction of Subject Tuners.  On or about September 1, 2016, and
again on or about November 1, 2016, Defendants shall offer Harley-Davidson dealers a buyback
of any Subject Tuner that has been supplied by Defendants to any Harley-Davidson dealers, that
is not covered by a California ARB Executive Order, and that has not yet been sold to the
ultimate purchaser.
a.
Defendants shall offer to buy back at no cost to such dealers each such
Subject Tuner. The buyback offer shall include, at a minimum, Defendants’ full sales
price to the dealer, and all shipping and handling costs.
b.
For each Subject Tuner that Defendants acquire from the buyback,
Defendants shall destroy by crushing such Subject Tuner and its calibrated maps.
Defendants shall destroy any Subject Tuner that they acquire from the buyback within 30
Days of the Effective Date or within 30 Days of receipt of such Subject Tuner, whichever
is later.

[HUBBARD]

This crap is over the top!  Later--HUBBARD

[ImBroke]

So do you think this will work out as an advantage to guys with a PowerVison?  I could pay for another "EPA" legal dyno tune and flash that to the bike if needed to pass EPA, then flash the "go fast" tune back to the bike.

[glens]

So do you think this will work out as an advantage to guys with a PowerVison?  I could pay for another "EPA" legal dyno tune and flash that to the bike if needed to pass EPA, then flash the "go fast" tune back to the bike.

Perhaps if you need to periodically pass an emissions test, but technically, if you've got any un-certified (or originally certified but later modified) parts in use in the emissions-related area of the powertrain, then it really doesn't matter whether or not you'd pass a sniff test because you're still outside looking in.  Certification has ostensibly been obtained by HD for specific combinations of various parts - when using the appropriate HD ECM flash - but only for those combinations.  If you pick and choose, or especially use aftermarket parts/tuning, then there's strictly no way to make it "legal" without going through the certification process.  And for that I believe it takes more than one example be supplied for testing and maybe they won't even look at one-offs anyway.  That'd be a good question to ask the EPA; "Can I get my bike certified after alteration?"  Along with "How much would it cost?"

[guppytrash]

So if tuners are in the bullseye what is next, exhaust?  Don't throw away that head pipe with the catalytic converter in it just yet!
Here comes emission testing for motorcycles.  Ugh!

[grc]

So if tuners are in the bullseye what is next, exhaust?  Don't throw away that head pipe with the catalytic converter in it just yet!
Here comes emission testing for motorcycles.  Ugh!

Yup, that's what I've been telling people for the past six years or so.

I remember all this same "woe is me" talk when emission controls were placed on cars.  Yes, there were some bad times at first.  Cars ran like chit, and some of the most popular performance models were killed off.  But eventually we wound up with cars that in totally stock form produced more power and better fuel economy than anything that had gone before.  These days the hard work has already been done by the auto industry, and all Harley has to do is learn how to copy that stuff without screwing it up.  They've made a mess of it so far, but now they have more incentive to learn how to do it right.  Let's hope they do it soon.

Jerry

[guppytrash]

Very true and well said Jerry.
Harley has been getting away with selling starter kits and we payed up to get them running. 
Now they are going to be forced to compete with what other motorcycle manufacturers are selling out of the showroom.
In the end we should all benefit.

[glens]

Yeah, but part of the allure of a Harley is the link to the past.  V-Rods or Streets don't do nothin' for me.  If HD has to go more in that direction it's going to have to be awful damned compelling.  We'll see, I guess.

[Yellow09SERG]

Interesting quote from EPA

[Twolanerider]

Yeah, but part of the allure of a Harley is the link to the past. 

That's crap and it's lazy on our part as a consumer.  Self defeating on our part as a consumer actually.  An "I want it so bad I'll hit myself in the toe with a hammer repeatedly just to keep enjoying the feeling" version of consumerism flies nowhere else.  Chevrolet reintroduced a Camaro that harkens to its past and still managed effective modernity.  Dodge did with Challenger and Ford has repetitively done it with Mustang.  Those are much more varied and complicated systems than any little two cylinder, relatively non-accessorized and still less Federally managed (comparatively) motorcycle from Harley.  Somewhere, somewhen, somehow and for some reason our obsession with potato-potato-potato has to stop being an excuse to let Mother Harley continually get away with design laziness and larceny.

I say thank goodness for the Federal standards or, in the current case, the even far more demanding European standards upcoming for  each of the next two years.  If Harley weren't forced by someone to modernize they would never consider their consumers reason enough to do it on their own.  Since the consumers have, too often, been too damned dumb, satisfied, frightened, lazy or financially self-injurious to make Harley only now approach the middle 1990s in automotive technology thanks to the Feds and the Europeans for making them do it for us.

Yes, Harley will get it wrong before they get it right.  Repeatedly.  I doubt they'll ever be really "current" in my riding lifetime.  But, if they survive, it's only thanks to the necessity of chasing regulatory standards that we're all still not riding some fourth generation Shovelhead (which, in a way, we still kind of are).

[Para Bellum]

all Harley has to do is learn how to copy that stuff without screwing it up.  They've made a mess of it so far, but now they have more incentive to learn how to do it right.  Let's hope they do it soon.

Jerry

Things HD couldn't copy without screwing it up: (feel free to add your own)
EFI
ABS
GPS
XM radio
Hydraulic clutch
Chrome parts
Paint
Hydraulic lifters
Cam bearings

[OBB]

Things HD couldn't copy without screwing it up: (feel free to add your own)
EFI
ABS
GPS
XM radio
Hydraulic clutch
Chrome parts
Paint
Hydraulic lifters
Cam bearings

Going out on a limb here so don't tighten the noose too much. I haven't had any issues with the XM and from what I've read all over the place it seems like it's always and antenna issue. Short of making something rather large and ugly like what's on most cars today, I don't think there's much of an issue with it. I sure as hell wouldn't want something that nasty on a $40k bike. If it's on the roof of my truck, that's one thing, on a bike though, nope.

[bbrown]

So if tuners are in the bullseye what is next, exhaust?  Don't throw away that head pipe with the catalytic converter in it just yet!
Here comes emission testing for motorcycles.  Ugh!

i agree.  Just what we need more government intervention.  What's next is right....maybe they will just ban motorcycles

[RoadDawg]

Looks like the EPA has made SE Super Tuners illegal. Harley has to pay a multi-million dollar fine and offer to buy back every Super Tuner ever sold! My dealer told me he fears they'll remove the software from their dyno too.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/08/18/harley-davidson-epa-emissions-settlement-defeat-devices/88944648/?siteID=je6NUbpObpQ-1MNqc2CVr0zXEsaZErpfsQ

[glens]

Harley has to ... offer to buy back every Super Tuner ever sold!

Haven't read that article but have read the legal documentation.  The only tuners they must buy back are "Pro" tuners, and only unsold ones from their dealers.  Look at the quote from the document in my 3rd or so reply above.

[Para Bellum]

maybe they will just ban motorcycles

Hey, don't give them any ideas!  You know they'd like to.

[grc]

Things HD couldn't copy without screwing it up: (feel free to add your own)
EFI
ABS
GPS
XM radio
Hydraulic clutch
Chrome parts
Paint
Hydraulic lifters
Cam bearings

Don't forget Electronic Throttle Control.  That one nearly got some people killed when it failed in traffic, and was just one more time Harley was able to avoid a safety recall by pretending it didn't exist.  The auto folks learned a long time ago that some mission critical electrical connections need to be made with upgraded parts.  Things like airbags, ETC, ABS, PCM (Powertrain Control Module), etc.  So what does Harley do?  They used ill suited connectors on the wiring for the ETC that lead to many failures.  The truly sad part is that they use automotive suppliers for most of their electrical stuff, so these things shouldn't be unknown.  Delphi has been their go to supplier for instance, and they definitely know how it has to be done in the auto business.  I have a feeling Harley just purposely ignores recommendations from folks who know better and tell them to go with the cheap stuff.

Jerry

[FlaHeatWave]

Yea, I was wondering when (not if) this EPA crackdown would come about... Could be HD trying to move all the leftover '15s & 16s off the floor??? Cut into the aftermarket slice of the pie???
 
One has to realize that Harley has stretched the envelope of air cooled technology way beyond anyone else to keep the legacy (architecture) alive... The Japanese and the Germans could start with a clean sheet of paper as they had no legacy to keep alive... All of them had to go to full liquid cooling These days, Indian's "legacy" is some curves on the fenders, a logo, and a name...

The legacy designs of the modern muscle cars are just some sheet metal and plastic styling cues, they're a lot different underneath. Don't get me wrong, we are in a Renaissance Period with the automobile, the performance, comfort, safety, efficiency, durability, of today's vehicles was unimaginable in my youth, never thought I would see cars drive themselves in my lifetime... all with much less emissions. Full liquid cooled 4 stroke engines is the common denominator, except for all electric... 

There was some mention of Harley TBW issues... well my 3/4 ton pickup had the throttle control module at the pedal go bad, no warning signs, just intermittently would not go above idle when starting off from a stop, (yea, some crimp marks on the seat!) Module cost $900.00!!! so even things (the automotive world) that all the major economies of the world revolve around aren't perfect... Motorcycles are a fly on an elephant's ass compared...     

One of the things that attracted me to Harleys 40 years ago (when they couldn't give 'em away)  was the visceral sensations, the vibration, the noise, the looks, riding a work of art, not something out of a Judge Dredd movie, and yes the legacy and the history, like something that has a life of it's own, Harley's all have their own personality... and to a large extent, the MoCo has kept that in tact... up to now...

Some folks would call me a "kool-aide drinker", and that's ok with me, due to a lot of hard work, a little luck, and being blessed, I can drink anything I want...

Yea Jerry, I'm sure your Cherry is bone stock... mine is too...

As far as the C.A.V.E folks... the petroleum lobbies are much stronger than the Coal lobbies... I'd take Coal over fracking any day! Now that OPEC has dropped the price of oil and kept it down, how many "patriotic ads about energy independence" do you see these days??? I know first hand what an oil spill is (Deepwater Horizon), I never heard of a Coal Spill???

Now don't get me wrong, I'm (mostly) pro- EPA... I'm a Land Guy, have seen my share of SuperFund Sites, and worked in areas where the Erie Canal used to catch fire...
 

'Gotta quote 'Ol Hub on this one...

There endeth the Lesson...

[SciFiGuy]

HD has agreed to stop selling the SE Pro Tuner as part of their settlement with the US Government on air pollution.  What affects will this have on the motor upgrade kit like the 117 ci .

As already stated this suit from the EPA only applies only to the S-E "Pro" Super Tuner Kit and does not affect the sell or use of the S-E Street Performance Tuner Kit which is needed for the 117 C.I. upgrade (had mine done three months ago) and is legal in all 50 states.

From the H-D website

"These Screamin' Eagle® products are 50-state street-legal for sale and use on all vehicles, including those that are pollution controlled. Complies with the requirements of 40 CFR Part 86, subparts E and F.
Note
Street Tuner permits limited tunability within the emissions range to optimize drivability without compromising emission levels. It also features expanded tuning options outside the emissions range to optimize performance."

[JCZ]

They start with the deep pockets first but they'll probably go after the after market tuners next. 

[Para Bellum]

Delphi has been their go to supplier for instance, and they definitely know how it has to be done in the auto business.  I have a feeling Harley just purposely ignores recommendations from folks who know better and tell them to go with the cheap stuff.
Jerry

I can just hear HD's bean counters in the meeting with the Delphi guys: "You're on Generation 10 of the    ___ system, and they cost $10 each?  We'll take Generation 1 at $0.40 each."

Delphi: "But Gen 1 isn't waterproof.  Won't that be dangerous on a motorcycle?"

HD: "No problem; the riders can just pull over to the shoulder if it ever happens.  We'll sell a bunch of roadside assistance, and we'll make even more money.  Same with the extended "warranty"--mo' money.  And if they don't buy the ESP...well, the dealers love that $100+ per hour labor charge and the 200% mark-up on parts.  Now you know why we want the Gen 1, but that secrecy agreement you signed prohibits you from saying anything."

Delphi guys, after HD leaves: "What do you think the Harley riders would do if they ever found out how MoCo screws them?"  2nd Delphi guy: "Probably be a riot in Milwaukee.  Hey, didn't that just happen?"  3rd guy: "Yeah, I'm gonna sell my HD stock, and I'm not buying a Harley 'til they get a whole new business model."  All 3 together: "Damrite!"

[FLTRCVO]

With the EPA hammering the Motor Company to the tune of 15 mil, how will we be tuning the new motors effectively? I don't see Harley sitting by with their ass still burning letting other after market vendors be able to tune the new motors without some sort of ramifications.

[iski]

Aftermarket tuner companies are already working on it.  Expect some new tuners will be on the market over the next few months.  And unless you are in a state that checks emissions, considering one will not be an issue.

[FLTRCVO]

Aftermarket tuner companies are already working on it.  Expect some new tuners will be on the market over the next few months.  And unless you are in a state that checks emissions, considering one will not be an issue.

No doubt, more concerned with the footprint with warranty work, for a non Harley tuner now that Harley took the 15 mil hit, I can see Harley putting in software to detect alien tuners into their diagnostic programs now.

[iski]

No doubt, more concerned with the footprint with warranty work, for a non Harley tuner now that Harley took the 15 mil hit, I can see Harley putting in software to detect alien tuners into their diagnostic programs now.

Maybe, but do not think so. After market tuner guys smell a bonanza, they are doing happy dances methinks.

EPA is a gaggle of over regulating USA business killing bureaucrats and leads the parade of running companies offshore to do business.  So anything they do to harm USA business is not surprising, they truly do not GAS about workers or capitalization domestically. A real shame.

Will see what happens, the states with emissions tests would be the easiest for the EPA to gestapo the regs.  Trouble would be when a 2017 or later bike from a non emission state is sold to a buyer in an emission state.  Bad juju then more likely.  Orphaned bikes are a sad thing to consider.....

[Jbbrown73]

Looks like the EPA has made SE Super Tuners illegal. Harley has to pay a multi-million dollar fine and offer to buy back every Super Tuner ever sold! My dealer told me he fears they'll remove the software from their dyno too.

Smart dealers will just move their dyno to a new building down the road and open up an "independent" shop under a new name. That's what I would do!

[grc]

Smart dealers will just move their dyno to a new building down the road and open up an "independent" shop under a new name. That's what I would do!

Hopefully if they do that they will also hire full time fully qualified people to do the tuning.  Unfortunately most Harley dealerships didn't do that when the dyno was part of the dealership, thus all the complaints about lousy tunes.  At least for now and the near future, the guy using the tool is a lot more important than the tool.

I'm not convinced the feds won't eventually go after the aftermarket folks as well.  They really couldn't in the past while they allowed a big corporation like Harley to spit in their eye and flagrantly violate the law.  It will probably come down to budgets and appropriations as to if or when this might happen.

Jerry

[Jbbrown73]

Hopefully if they do that they will also hire full time fully qualified people to do the tuning.  Unfortunately most Harley dealerships didn't do that when the dyno was part of the dealership, thus all the complaints about lousy tunes.  At least for now and the near future, the guy using the tool is a lot more important than the tool.

That is absolute truth!!!

[FLTRCVO]

Hopefully if they do that they will also hire full time fully qualified people to do the tuning.  Unfortunately most Harley dealerships didn't do that when the dyno was part of the dealership, thus all the complaints about lousy tunes.  At least for now and the near future, the guy using the tool is a lot more important than the tool.

I'm not convinced the feds won't eventually go after the aftermarket folks as well.  They really couldn't in the past while they allowed a big corporation like Harley to spit in their eye and flagrantly violate the law.  It will probably come down to budgets and appropriations as to if or when this might happen.

Jerry

That is what I hinting at; Harley isn't going to sit on their ass while the after market folks feast on Harley's lost revenue due to the Pro Race Tuner being gone. How are we going to pay the so called price; purchase a non Harley Tuner it voids your warranty; my Pro Race Tuner on my 2009 CVO didn't void my warranty; If I'm Harley I'm having a program developed if it doesn't already exist to search for aftermarket tuners when running diagnostics for repairs and warranty work, because if I can't have my cake why should anyone else. Can you blame the Motor Company?

[Unbalanced]

I'd expect the street legal tuner to be a little expanded.   Much in the same way the tuners are made for california and the jap bikes.

[muddypaws]

A few years back I started a lawsuit for a bike that had problems. Their lawyers never even asked for my records to see what was ever done to the bike and if regular service was ever performed. 

[Big Jim]

Anybody know anything about the buyback? I have several of these Tuners that I'd love to let The Motor Company have. I like the utility of the aftermarket Tuners better anyway. I do Hate to see Harley take such a big hit though. I too wonder what the implications are for the future of Harley Tuning.

[Fired00d]

Anybody know anything about the buyback? I have several of these Tuners that I'd love to let The Motor Company have. I like the utility of the aftermarket Tuners better anyway. I do Hate to see Harley take such a big hit though. I too wonder what the implications are for the future of Harley Tuning.

They are only buying back dealer stock of the tuners... not end user units (specifics of this are posted earlier in this thread).

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[harleychef2011]

I looked through a few pages in this section and didn't see anything regarding so I apologize if this is a repeat...

Since the EPA fined the MoCo regarding the PRO Screaming Eagle (NOT the Street Tuner)... are we now unable to use them?  I was able to purchase one with my 2014 CVO Road King and changed headers/pipes, etc.  I was thinking to get the bike re-tuned with the existing tuner, but can anyone (dealership or mechanic) legally use these anymore?  Am I better off getting the money from the buy back?

Please do tell...

[Fired00d]

I looked through a few pages in this section and didn't see anything regarding so I apologize if this is a repeat...

Since the EPA fined the MoCo regarding the PRO Screaming Eagle (NOT the Street Tuner)... are we now unable to use them?  I was able to purchase one with my 2014 CVO Road King and changed headers/pipes, etc.  I was thinking to get the bike re-tuned with the existing tuner, but can anyone (dealership or mechanic) legally use these anymore?  Am I better off getting the money from the buy back?

Please do tell...

They are only buying back dealer stock of the tuners... not end user units (specifics of this are posted earlier in this thread).

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[CVOStreetglide]

You gotta read the terms of settlement.

Harley paid the Gov't off without admitting any guilt to avoid going the very expensive llitigation route.

What is interesting to me is that these SE Pro tuners were in the "sunset" phase of their useful product life when the fines and recalls were levied.
Then the M8 comes out and quickly skates through the Gov' approval process.
Apparently Harley had already designed and gained Gov't approval of the new tuners. Then they started stocking the dealers with a new tuner which meets Gov't standards.   

Viewing everything together, to me there seems to be far too many coincidences occurring at essentially the same time.

Only Harley and the Gov't know the real story.

[HUBBARD]

I looked through a few pages in this section and didn't see anything regarding so I apologize if this is a repeat...

Since the EPA fined the MoCo regarding the PRO Screaming Eagle (NOT the Street Tuner)... are we now unable to use them?  I was able to purchase one with my 2014 CVO Road King and changed headers/pipes, etc.  I was thinking to get the bike re-tuned with the existing tuner, but can anyone (dealership or mechanic) legally use these anymore?   Am I better off getting the money from the buy back?

Please do tell...

Good question.  I was told it's business as usual, they just don't offer SERT's, moving forward.  If you've got a tuner on your MC, and need work, or a re-tune, bring it in.  It may be akin to the rules and regs I have to abide by, as a legal and licensed Commercial Truck Dealership.  My Techs are Certified to work on Detroit, Mercedes, CAT, and Cummins Diesel Engines, built from the beginning of time, to current day.  Now, if we detect an Engine has had its fuel system, not the exhaust system, and not the air-intake system, modified to the extent it will not comply with EPA emissions, I am bound by law to cease repairs, and to report it to the EPA, immediately, if that particular Engine was, in fact, manufactured to meet those requirements.  I've never had to do that.  We can legally "turn engines up", like from 475 HP, to 565 HP, as long as it has the Cooling, and the Transmission available to handle the upgrade.  It's all done by changing codes in the ECM.  Don't know if that's relevant to this subject, but sort of.  HD just got tied up in the bullchit politics of climate change, pure and simple.  That's that.  I don't have to like it, and I don't, but I have to accept it, 'cause it's the law.  However, those of us who are HP junkies, will always find a way to get a fix.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD                 

[harleychef2011]

Good question.  I was told it's business as usual, they just don't offer SERT's, moving forward.  If you've got a tuner on your MC, and need work, or a re-tune, bring it in.  It may be akin to the rules and regs I have to abide by, as a legal and licensed Commercial Truck Dealership.  My Techs are Certified to work on Detroit, Mercedes, CAT, and Cummins Diesel Engines, built from the beginning of time, to current day.  Now, if we detect an Engine has had its fuel system, not the exhaust system, and not the air-intake system, modified to the extent it will not comply with EPA emissions, I am bound by law to cease repairs, and to report it to the EPA, immediately, if that particular Engine was, in fact, manufactured to meet those requirements.  I've never had to do that.  We can legally "turn engines up", like from 475 HP, to 565 HP, as long as it has the Cooling, and the Transmission available to handle the upgrade.  It's all done by changing codes in the ECM.  Don't know if that's relevant to this subject, but sort of.  HD just got tied up in the bullchit politics of climate change, pure and simple.  That's that.  I don't have to like it, and I don't, but I have to accept it, 'cause it's the law.  However, those of us who are HP junkies, will always find a way to get a fix.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD                 

Makes sense!  Thank you!!