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[SmokeyJoe]

This is going to be a bit long, but i am having an issue with my bike that has returned over and over again. The bike is a 2012 RGC CVO, so let me tell the story.

 1. Bike ran as it should when i took delivery, at about 1200 miles i put on the Fullsac DX pipe and the 2" cores. I tuned the bike with the TTS and the tune was from Fullsac. The bike ran great till about 4000 miles.

 Then is started stalling, eratic idle and hesitating throughout the RPM range. No codes on the speedo or brought up by HD when they ran diagnostics. Dealer decided to replace the TBW cable at the grip. This seemed to do the trick for a 100 or so miles. Then it started again. Dealer told me if it does it again to put the bike back to stocka nd bring it in, this would avoid any warrenty issues.

 2. So i put the bilke back to stock. All issues were resolved, i was happy but need a better sounding bike. So i ordered the CFR's and the Power Vision tuner. I figured with just the hit of a button and 6 bolts the bile could be stock in 30 minutes if i needed to go to the dealer.

 3. So i installed the CFR pipes and the Power Vision with a tune from Fuel Moto at about 4500 miles. Bike was running pretty darn good, did about 5 autotunes. Bike is running really good and getting good gas milage. I am ahappy camper once again.

 Here i am once again the with the stalling and hesitation with about 6600 miles. The RPM gauge at a light is bouncing from 800-1150, once it hits 800 or so a few times it dies. There is no drama restarting the bike, but the same RPM fluctuations occur.

 So this is what i have done as of recent to the bike between 4500 and 6600 mile. I change all the fluid, changed all motor bolts over to stainless steel, put a new cam chest cover on.

 These are some of my trouble shooting steps to date.
 1. Used the PV to reset trims - no help
 2. Tightend battery terms, they were pretty snug already - no help
 3. Spray down the intake with cleaner and used PV to reinstall the original tune from Fuel Moto, additionally i popped a bunch of connectors off the intake and made a visual inspection and added dielectric grease - ok this has seemed to help some, though i am feeling some hesitation around 2000 RPM. The test ride was prematurely shortened due to some snow fall.


 Sorry about the long write up - anyone got some ideas what to do next. Not ready to take it to the dealer as the weather is crap and i don't want to drive it this time of the year anyway.

[2k]

Wow, wish I could help more. The one thing I get out of your post is that its NOT the tune/type of tuner you are using. Why it disappears for a time after you change something on the scoot makes no sense, at least to me. 

[hawgzilla]

Have you checked to make sure the oxygen sensors are not hooked up backwards?

[SmokeyJoe]

Time to triple check,

[SmokeyJoe]

Black is back, that is correct i believe.

[Cosmic Charlie]

Chasing an intermittent electrical problem could take a (your) life time to solve (like you need to hear that)

When it's running good - Trade It - MoCo built it - MoCo can fix it under warranty while you ride a new to you bike

Sorry - Again not what you want to hear
This doesn't help fix the bike but solves your problem

Not trying to be a wise ass - just one of many choices

[cmashark]

Bad grounds?  Maybe a temp sensor shutting the bike down?  Maybe it's time to break out the FSM, the multimeter, and a couple jumper wires...

[05Train]

Was the voltage regulator recall done?

[SmokeyJoe]

Was the voltage regulator recall done?

Yes it was

[05Train]

I was having voltage issues that ended up being a bad ECM.  But my bike was running fine and throwing codes.  If you're still under warranty, I'd suggest letting the dealer figure it out.

[cahdbiker]

SmokeyJoe, sorry to hear about your issues. Unless I missed it I didn't see any mention of checking for a fuel delivery issue. Did you check all your fuel lines and filter? Just a thought.CAHDBIKER

[SmokeyJoe]

So the dealer found the problem!  I dont care how cold it is, i am riding.  I will put the monotubes in later.

[OBB]

So the dealer found the problem!  I dont care how cold it is, i am riding.  I will put the monotubes in later.

So what was the issue?

[SmokeyJoe]

They found a bad gasket from the intake to the jug, causing the motor to suck in to much air.  They used a dyno room to test run the bike since the weather is terrible right now.  The tuner was concerned that the cat was getting red hot. He is going to talk with HD about this.  The only mod on the bike as it sits now are CFR's as i took the Fuel Moto tune off before i took it to the dealer.

[eleft36]

They found a bad gasket from the intake to the jug, causing the motor to suck in to much air.  They used a dyno room to test run the bike since the weather is terrible right now.  The tuner was concerned that the cat was getting red hot. He is going to talk with HD about this.  The only mod on the bike as it sits now are CFR's as i took the Fuel Moto tune off before i took it to the dealer.

My thought: How is it the bike ran well after you returned it to stock if this is the issue?

 Al
PS check the attached pdf

[SmokeyJoe]

On this last go around it ran like crap with or without the stock tune.

[eleft36]

On this last go around it ran like crap with or without the stock tune.

My reference is to the stock exhaust and other mechanical changes back to stock including the ecm data.

Al
first rule of diagnostic, assume nothing, that includes what the other guy said the problem is/was.

[SmokeyJoe]

  agree completly

I wish i had that document nefore it went in the shop.  At any rate i am going to use it to check it out.

[SmokeyJoe]

So here I am again,this is just so frustrating.  The exact same symptoms are showing up again.  The dealer said ey found an intake leak and a faulty sensor on the throttle body.  They replaced these items under warranty.  It seemed to run fine for about 250 miles, then bam back to the same thing.  This has been going on now for about 3000 of my 7500 miles, been in the shop now 4 times for the same thing.

I checked for an intake leak today, there was none, I reapplied/cleaned all connectors, everywhere.  I did find a slightly loose spark plug, but no time to test ride since the fuel tank is off now. Kinda doubt the plug is causing these issues but who knows.

I was reading, and maybe I should check the fuel filter/lines in the tank.  Can I get that big old cam ring off without the special tool?

[Jswerve]

So here I am again,this is just so frustrating.  The exact same symptoms are showing up again.  The dealer said ey found an intake leak and a faulty sensor on the throttle body.  They replaced these items under warranty.  It seemed to run fine for about 250 miles, then bam back to the same thing.  This has been going on now for about 3000 of my 7500 miles, been in the shop now 4 times for the same thing.

I checked for an intake leak today, there was none, I reapplied/cleaned all connectors, everywhere.  I did find a slightly loose spark plug, but no time to test ride since the fuel tank is off now. Kinda doubt the plug is causing these issues but who knows.

I was reading, and maybe I should check the fuel filter/lines in the tank.  Can I get that big old cam ring off without the special tool?

Oh man this thread is painful to read. Talk about ruining the whole CVO experience! I really hope you get this figured out!

[redbeard719]

So here I am again,this is just so frustrating.  The exact same symptoms are showing up again.  The dealer said ey found an intake leak and a faulty sensor on the throttle body.  They replaced these items under warranty.  It seemed to run fine for about 250 miles, then bam back to the same thing.  This has been going on now for about 3000 of my 7500 miles, been in the shop now 4 times for the same thing.

I checked for an intake leak today, there was none, I reapplied/cleaned all connectors, everywhere.  I did find a slightly loose spark plug, but no time to test ride since the fuel tank is off now. Kinda doubt the plug is causing these issues but who knows.

I was reading, and maybe I should check the fuel filter/lines in the tank.  Can I get that big old cam ring off without the special tool?

Snap-on makes a tool specifically for removing the fuel tank cover plate.  I think it's about $50.

At any rate, take a look at this article.  I've reviewed this article, and when I change my fuel filter, I'll be having a look at this.

http://www.roadglide.org/showthread.php?t=34942

I suppose it's possible it's a fuel issue.  I would also suggest the fretting pins at the TCA.  This is a common issue, but typically throws a code.

Other areas to look, and I apologize if you already have - battery terminals, plug wires to coil.

Another rider on the Springer forum posted about something similar.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=90014.0

[Gnarl78]

I was thinking plugs, too. Maybe ECM is faulty?

[05Train]

You can get at the fuel filter using a rubber mallet and a flathead screwdriver.  Just cover the tank with a towel.

With that said, I'm still putting my money on a bad ECM.

[SmokeyJoe]

Really an ECM, dot hey really go bad?

[05Train]

Really an ECM, dot hey really go bad?

Mine did.  O2 sensors were showing correct voltage, bike wouldn't go into closed loop.  I was throwing a bunch of codes as well.

[SmokeyJoe]

 

SmokeyJoe, sorry to hear about your issues. Unless I missed it I didn't see any mention of checking for a fuel delivery issue. Did you check all your fuel lines and filter? Just a thought.CAHDBIKER

So last night I took a look in the fuel tank, checked the 2 lines I could get to off the fuel filter assembly.  Those checked out ok, opened the filter and it looked fine and was sealed well.

Tonight I will do the TCA voltage checks and see how they check out.  Bike is still in pieces so no test rides yet, but by the weekend I will have it back together. 

05Train mentioned ECM, without codes I don't know how to convince the dealer to even check this.  Besides that I think they BS me on changing the intake gasket, really there was no evidence that someone worked there before...

[Trapperdog]

I've twice  experienced similar symptoms, although my mileage increments between re occurrence were much shorter than yours. One was a brand new spark plug that that would at times fire correctly, and at other times would not. The other was a plug wire that would cause symptoms as yours for 50 miles, then run fine for another 50, for several hundred miles.
Easy solutions in my cases, but I might suggest checking plug colors for the possibility of a single cylinder being problematic, and/or borrowing a set of wires and changing the plugs. Every once and a while, the solution is simpler than we make it out to be.  Hopefully yours will be found soon either way.

[SmokeyJoe]

I've twice  experienced similar symptoms, although my mileage increments between re occurrence were much shorter than yours. One was a brand new spark plug that that would at times fire correctly, and at other times would not. The other was a plug wire that would cause symptoms as yours for 50 miles, then run fine for another 50, for several hundred miles.
Easy solutions in my cases, but I might suggest checking plug colors for the possibility of a single cylinder being problematic, and/or borrowing a set of wires and changing the plugs. Every once and a while, the solution is simpler than we make it out to be.  Hopefully yours will be found soon either way.

I had not said so on here, but checked the plugs and the color was good according to a chart I checked them against.

[SmokeyJoe]

So last night my intentions were to make some voltage checks either at the ECM or TCA. Once I looked at it I realize the multimeter leads would not do it.  Does anyone have some advice on making these checks, is there a breakout board available for the ECM?

[SmokeyJoe]

So I got the bike back together and took it out for a short ride.  It is completely back to stock, with a stock tune.  It is running worst now than before.  Anyway it went into limp mode and I got these codes.

I noticed most of them point to the TB in this post earlier.  Thing was I could not so the voltage checks because I need a breakout box, I am thinking about getting a used Power Commander off of Ebay and building a breakout box- I tried wiggling all the connectors while the bike was running and nothing changed.  But first the bike is going to the dealer cause there is only 1 month of warranty left.

P0120
P0220
P0222
P1510
P1511
P2135



It runs horrible, stuttering down the road and stalling at lights.

Anybody got a clue what could be causing all these issues.

[rheiner]

My SEUC5 went into limp mode on a trip and the local dealer it was towed to put in new terminal pins that connect into the throttle body. That solved the problem. From your descriptions it sounds like an intermittent problem which makes me believe it's electrical in nature.

[SmokeyJoe]

Went by the dealer, they were great and they are gonna pick the bike up today. 

[garretn]

My SEUC5 went into limp mode on a trip and the local dealer it was towed to put in new terminal pins that connect into the throttle body. That solved the problem. From your descriptions it sounds like an intermittent problem which makes me believe it's electrical in nature.

I had the same thing happen on my last bike.  Terminals fixed the issue but it was a rough trip getting it to the dealer. I was told they had a recall on that wiring issue but I have not been able to confirm this.

[SmokeyJoe]

Checked In on the bike today.  They replaced the ECM, but that did not cure the issue.  He said he is going to look at some of the sensors on the throttle body and actually ordered a TCA, that should be in Monday.

Sure hope they find the cure.

[SmokeyJoe]

So they did the TCA and that did not cure the issue.  The bike barely runs now.  This is really depressing.

[Cosmic Charlie]

Chasing an intermittent electrical problem could take a (your) life time to solve (like you need to hear that)
When it's running good - Trade It - MoCo built it - MoCo can fix it under warranty while you ride a new to you bike
Sorry - Again not what you want to hear
This doesn't help fix the bike but solves your problem
Not trying to be a wise ass - just one of many choices

I would ask the repairing dealer to offer you full retail value on trade-in and you'll buy a new bike for MSRP (or something like that) ... and in turn won't sue them ...

Maybe a MoCo District Rep will help push for this - wishful thinking
Maybe a Lawyer will give that idea a BIG push (Lemon Law) ?

ps - the dealer makes money each time the bike is in for a fix (BUT you lose your value because you can't drive it when it's laid up). The dealer can milk this forever if you don't PUSH for something - I'd send some lawyer certified mail to MoCo & the dealer so they'll take it more serious ...

[SmokeyJoe]

Cosmic Charlie, I wish that was an option.  I asked the Military sales folks that question and they said they have bought back some bikes, but they were during the first year.  My issues started after the first year.  Not sure how that would work out for me anyway as I have so much into the bike now.

[Cosmic Charlie]

rock & a hard place situation -

keep the dealer as a friend - you need him - what will happen after your 2 year warranty is up and the bike is still no right ? (sorry to bring it up)

best of luck to ya

you have a lot of patience !

[SmokeyJoe]

Yes I think patience was my failure.  I kept believing/wanted to believe they had fixed it.  Not sure what will happen once the warranty is finished.

[grc]

rock & a hard place situation -

keep the dealer as a friend - you need him - what will happen after your 2 year warranty is up and the bike is still no right ? (sorry to bring it up)

best of luck to ya

you have a lot of patience !

Yes I think patience was my failure.  I kept believing/wanted to believe they had fixed it.  Not sure what will happen once the warranty is finished.

That's why you don't handle something like this just with the dealer.  File a complaint with H-D corporate by phone call (get a reference number) as well as by certified, return receipt mail.  Do the same with the military sales folks.  Don't let a dealer jerk you around for two years and then say tough chit, it's out of warranty.  Document everything, including each and every contact you've had with the dealership or Harley concerning the problem.  Talk to a lawyer before you let things go too far for one to be of much help.  Do not let this go beyond the two years without raising all sorts of hell with H-D.

Jerry

[SDCVO]

I don't think the buy back laws only apply to the first year but the the factory warranty period. I agree that you need to contact the moco and start some,thing going. your deal is just not right..

[SmokeyJoe]

So I am going to take the sound advice and contact the MoCo by phone/mail.  I went by the dealers who had worked on the bike and this is what they say (on paper) has been replaced.  Also he gave me a print out of all the current codes.

Sensor, Temp Manifold ABS, Press - 32319-07
Induction Module Kit - 27200002
Seal, Intake (2 each) - 26995-86B
Gasket, Backplate to Intake - 27948-08
Blank ECM - 34246-08B
Throttle Control Assembly - just installed on the bike but not on the documents

Codes:

P0122
P0120
P0220
P0222
P1510
P1511
P2122
P2135
P2138

[georgied]

I would definitely be seeing about purchasing an extended warranty unless they are going to take the bike back. The fact that you are experiencing this issue during the warranty period tells me they are on the hook to fix it no matter how long it takes. Problem is, once they fix it, what happenes if it pops back up again in another thousand miles?

[grc]

I would definitely be seeing about purchasing an extended warranty unless they are going to take the bike back. The fact that you are experiencing this issue during the warranty period tells me they are on the hook to fix it no matter how long it takes. Problem is, once they fix it, what happenes if it pops back up again in another thousand miles?

Harley would still be responsible for fixing the problem even if the bike was beyond the warranty period, as long as all the previous unsuccessful repair attempts were documented.  Not truly fixing something and waiting for the warranty to run out used to be a successful strategy for some companies back in the day, but the legal system is much different these days.

Jerry

[Cosmic Charlie]

Please note Smokey Joe is in Germany  ....

[grc]

Please note Smokey Joe is in Germany  ....

Yes, I'm aware of that.  He is in a fairly unique situation, being military and having bought the bike through the military program.  And Germany has some much more strenuous warranty regulations than we have in the USA, so he may have better rights in Germany than he does under US rules.  

I'm not sure if he could even buy an ESP in Germany (perhaps kraut or one of the other members from that country would like to chime in here), but I'd be damned if I'd let Harley's failure to fix a defect during the warranty period cause me to spend thousands of dollars to buy an insurance policy like the ESP.  Handing them even more money for an ESP (very profitable for them btw) to supposedly fix the stuff they couldn't fix during the warranty seems a little strange to me.  If they couldn't fix it under warranty, what makes you think they will suddenly learn how to diagnose and fix the same problem a day after the warranty expires?  The only difference is under ESP you would get to pay them another $50 for each of their ineffectual attempts at a repair. 

JMHO - Jerry

[SmokeyJoe]

So yes I am in Germany and the bike is US spec and only a few dealers here have all the diagnostic tools to trouble shoot US bikes.  Which makes it hard for them to troubleshoot, but even the dealer with the right diagnostic equipment could not TS the bike properly.  This all beside the point, just thought I would throw this out there.

The lady in the US said they would take care of me and make sure the dealer gets the help they need to trouble shoot the bike.  She said my case is well documented and then she gave me a reference number for the call. Before we got off the phone she sent me a test email to make sure it worked.  I now feel much better about the whole thing.  The bike is still at the dealers, but they are calling everyday to report there progress and what's next.

Today they said they found an issue in the main wiring harness going to the ECM.  They said when you wiggle the cable it occasionally idles rough/ stalls the bike. 

The dealer says he may have it ready for me by the weekend....

[donald p]

After this long aggravating post it sure is great to hear that a wire to the ECM Will solve it. GOOD LUCK and thanks for all the information.

[SmokeyJoe]

Really the only reason I have kept up with this thread was to keep people informed that may be having same issue or f course someone may stumble across this post that could help. 
That way while doing a search they may come across my thread.  Now the cherry on top is when they get it fixed and it is truly fixed, I will be able to post the cure.

[phato1]

Really the only reason I have kept up with this thread was to keep people informed that may be having same issue or f course someone may stumble across this post that could help. 
That way while doing a search they may come across my thread.  Now the cherry on top is when they get it fixed and it is truly fixed, I will be able to post the cure.

I for one appreciate your efforts to keep us informed. And of course I'm rooting for you to get the bike fixed right.

[SmokeyJoe]

So its been in the shop for a more than 2 weeks now and seems to be no end to the troubleshooting.

They are going to order a main wiring harness for the bike today. 

I spoke with HD MoCo yesterday and let them know how disappointed I am in how they are handling this.  They agreed it should not take so long....

[Jswerve]

So its been in the shop for a more than 2 weeks now and seems to be no end to the troubleshooting.

They are going to order a main wiring harness for the bike today. 

I spoke with HD MoCo yesterday and let them know how disappointed I am in how they are handling this.  They agreed it should not take so long....

Joe so sorry. What a nightmare! 

[North Georgia Hawg]

I just read this entire thread. Man, I hope you can get your bike fixed soon, Joe. It must be really frustrating to have gone this long without a proper fix.

Good luck!

Ken

[SmokeyJoe]

Yes it is more than frustrating.  Trying to remain calm and be civil with the dealer.

[dartman]

OMG, A wire harness is a tricky install I can only imagine the number of ways they can mess that up, hope it works out for you.

[FLY-DOG]

I feel for you, please keep us informed and let us know what the "real" fix was once they get it running right.  Good luck!

[donald p]

Good LUCK again Joe sure hope this time it works out.

[05Train]

Man, what a cluster.  And I thought I had it bad when it took Battley 2 months to diagnose a bad ECM.


Sent from my iPad, probably while I'm pooping.

[SmokeyJoe]

So last night I got a call from the mechanic, he says I got some news for ya - wait for it.......

Your bike is finished, we replaced some pins on the wiring harness going to the ECM. 

They brought the bike last night and since the weather was questionable I opted to install my new bag latches and tour pack. 

Got up  O dark thirty this morning and have rode through two tanks of gas with no issues.

 I am somewhat skeptical as I have been down this road before, but I am also very optimistic they have finally fixed the bike.

[Jswerve]

So last night I got a call from the mechanic, he says I got some news for ya - wait for it.......

Your bike is finished, we replaced some pins on the wiring harness going to the ECM. 

They brought the bike last night and since the weather was questionable I opted to install my new bag latches and tour pack. 

Got up  O dark thirty this morning and have rode through two tanks of gas with no issues.

 I am somewhat skeptical as I have been down this road before, but I am also very optimistic they have finally fixed the bike.

I hope they fixed it! Sorry man this sucks!

[phato1]

Glad you're back in the saddle. Hope the issue is fixed.

By the way, nice looking bike 

[grc]

Electrical problems, especially intermittent electrical problems, seem to be the toughest problems for most people who work on cars, bikes, appliances, etc..  I don't know if that is due to insufficient training, the lack of incentive or motivation to take the time to study the system and think through the areas that could cause the symptoms and then to trace those circuits for anomalies, or what.  What I do know is that the auto dealerships I used to visit as part of my job back in the day would kiss the butt of a truly gifted electrical diagnostician and do whatever it took to keep them.  They are a rare breed.

These kinds of problems quickly expose the "parts changers" that so heavily populate dealerships these days.  Thus all the horror stories of five and ten or even more attempts to fix problems.  I know the auto industry has been trying to find ways to address this problem; it's way past time for Harley to step up and do the same.

Jerry

[05Train]

Hope they got it.

[Jswerve]

Electrical problems, especially intermittent electrical problems, seem to be the toughest problems for most people who work on cars, bikes, appliances, etc.. would kiss the butt of a truly gifted electrical diagnostician and do whatever it took to keep them.  They are a rare breed.

Very true

Jesse

[phato1]

Electrical problems, especially intermittent electrical problems, seem to be the toughest problems for most people who work on cars, bikes, appliances, etc..  I don't know if that is due to insufficient training, the lack of incentive or motivation to take the time to study the system and think through the areas that could cause the symptoms and then to trace those circuits for anomalies, or what.  What I do know is that the auto dealerships I used to visit as part of my job back in the day would kiss the butt of a truly gifted electrical diagnostician and do whatever it took to keep them.  They are a rare breed.

These kinds of problems quickly expose the "parts changers" that so heavily populate dealerships these days.  Thus all the horror stories of five and ten or even more attempts to fix problems.  I know the auto industry has been trying to find ways to address this problem; it's way past time for Harley to step up and do the same.

Jerry

I believe you hit it right on the head Jerry. It's much easier to change out a module or a relay and hope the problem went away. Unfortunately sometimes changing a component in an electrical circuit will "reset" - for lack of a better term - the system until the errors again reach a level to cause the original problem - and the now aggravated customer - to return. And duplicating the conditions of an intermittent failure and using a systematic troubleshooting approach takes to long for a mechanic whose usually paid a flat rate for the job, meaning he/she may not be willing to spend a day(or several days) troubleshooting when they can change a component, mask the problem and move on to the next job.

[SmokeyJoe]

Tank 3 and no issues, see ya

[OBB]

Tank 3 and no issues, see ya

That's what we like to hear 

[SmokeyJoe]

Well to good to be true.

Today I rode it for a few hundred miles, and noticed it was getting a bit hard to start.  It normally starts right up, but today it would have to turn 2/3 times or so before starting.  Also noticed the idle fluctuating between 1040 and 920 ( not sure if that is normal).

Worst part, no check engine light on but two DTC codes p0134 and p0154.  That means something about the O2 sensors are open.  The bike is completely stock right now so no tuners.

[Jswerve]

Well to good to be true.

Today I rode it for a few hundred miles, and noticed it was getting a bit hard to start.  It normally starts right up, but today it would have to turn 2/3 times or so before starting.  Also noticed the idle fluctuating between 1040 and 920 ( not sure if that is normal).

Worst part, no check engine light on but two DTC codes p0134 and p0154.  That means something about the O2 sensors are open.  The bike is completely stock right now so no tuners.

Ugh

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

[SmokeyJoe]

So today I realized I needed to retitle this thread.

Last night I dropped the bike off at the dealer and they gave me a loaner bike, I wanted the CVO Road King, settled for the Low Rider.  Anyway horrible ride over there as winds were gusting up 25MPH and it was raining like hell, I could had sworn I felt some freezing rain as well. 

[SmokeyJoe]

So I picked the bike up last night and talk with the tech.  He confirmed the codes and like me tried to clear them with no luck.  He said the check engine light is not coming on because the event is not persistent and must only last a split second.  He said he needed to check with his district manager about ordering the main wiring harness, but saw no issue in getting his approval since they had discussed this before.  Meanwhile I am speaking to the warranty folks over here about a buy back, but still waiting on there reply.  A buy back is bitter sweet as I was building my dream bike.  Also I asked, but unsure how they are going to handle all of the mods I did to the bike as that is in the thousands.

[SmokeyJoe]

So cant get worst - think again.

I just got word from the European Warranty Manager:

"We do not repurchase motorcycles. Nonetheless we are monitoring the repair of your Harley and we have asked the shop for input.

We are able to help facilitate communication between the dealer and the manufacturer, should this be necessary however we await the status from the repair facility first."

I have not digested this email yet, but I am a bit pi$$ed about the whole stinkin thing.

So this morning I wanted to ride the bike to work - guess what?  it won't start!  Call HD and they meet me at the house to take her away once again.

Looking for advice guys?

[sadunbar]

So cant get worst - think again.

I just got word from the European Warranty Manager:

"We do not repurchase motorcycles. Nonetheless we are monitoring the repair of your Harley and we have asked the shop for input.

We are able to help facilitate communication between the dealer and the manufacturer, should this be necessary however we await the status from the repair facility first."

I have not digested this email yet, but I am a bit pi$$ed about the whole stinkin thing.

So this morning I wanted to ride the bike to work - guess what?  it won't start!  Call HD and they meet me at the house to take her away once again.

Looking for advice guys?

I'm not at all familiar with the laws in your country, but just because the European Warranty Manager stated "We do not repurchase motorcycles", it doesn't necessarily mean that's what your laws state.  When your frustration peaks, you may consider counsel to learn what legal options are available to you. 

[SmokeyJoe]

That is the messed up part, don't know if I have a state.  I am over in Germany with the Armed Forces.

[sadunbar]

That is the messed up part, don't know if I have a state.  I am over in Germany with the Armed Forces.

I see...  I'm sure you have legal rights and options.  Perhaps another member has experience with a similar matter?   

[grc]

Don't U.S. Military bases have legal services available to the personnel?  I'd start by seeking out such services to find out exactly what your rights are.  They have to handle this under either US laws or German laws, and before you can go much further you really need to get an answer as to which applies in your case.

Having the manufacturer or their proxy "monitor" the repairs isn't the answer to anything.  It's way past time to either send in someone who knows what they're doing to fix the bike once and for all, or to buy the POS back and let you get on with your life.  Sadly H-D isn't known for doing the right thing automatically.   

Good luck.

Jerry

[Fired00d]

That is the messed up part, don't know if I have a state.  I am over in Germany with the Armed Forces.

Did you buy the bike through the Armed Forces Purchase Plan (can't think of the official name of that plan)?

Is your bike an International or US model?

I would think if you purchased under the military option plan and it's a US bike you would be covered under the laws of your official state of residence in the US.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Steve Cole]

Worst part, no check engine light on but two DTC codes p0134 and p0154.  That means something about the O2 sensors are open.  The bike is completely stock right now so no tuners.

P0134 Front Cylinder
If the sensor voltage does not come down to a normal operating range after a calibrated  amount of time, it is either shorted high, open circuit, or it is too cold to respond (high impedance state).   If the sensor is heated, the heater may have failed.   

P0154 Rear Cylinder
If the sensor voltage does not come down to a normal operating range after a calibrated  amount of time, it is either shorted high, open circuit, or it is too cold to respond (high impedance state).   If the sensor is heated, the heater may have failed. 

So those codes are telling you that you have the same issue front and rear cylinder. Did You put the complete stock exhaust back in place? If not I would start with that. I would also have the dealership check that the sensors ground is not faulty as that could be possible but not likely. This could be a connection issue at the ECM as well on the sensor ground wire side.

[MurphEOD]

SmokeyJoe, check with the JAG on your installation and ask if it's considered Sovereign Territory or if the Status of Forces Agreement might cover your situation. Murph

[SmokeyJoe]

Right now I am trying to find out which US State Military Car Sales operates out of.  If it is NY as I suspect, their Lemon Law is 2 years, 18k miles.  I need to move quickly because I turn into a pumpkin next week.

[MurphEOD]

Don't know if this will help but hope it does. Murph

Customer Service Contact Information
Please use the information below to contact a customer service representative. Our hours of operation are Monday Friday 9:00 AM-5:00 PM Eastern Standard Time. The Toll-free numbers listed below are only valid within the U.S.
New York Headquarters
 
Client Relations Department
Supervisor: Yancy Velasquez
Email: yvelasqu@militarycars.com
800-732-2839
800-664-4810
800-664-5153


After Delivery Services / Factory Warranty / Parts
Ben Kivovitz(US Delivery Only)
BKivovit@militarycars.com
800-347-7019
175 Crossways Park West
Woodbury, NY 11797
 
Extended Service Plan
Ben Kivovitz
BKivovit@aftermarketserviceinc.com
800-347-7019

 
Europe
 
After Delivery Information/Factory Warranty/IWSG (Service Plans)
Military Car Sales GmbH
Westerbachstr. 23
61476 Kronberg/Ts.
Germany
Telephone: 06173-704-256 or 06173-704-257
Custserv@militarycars.com

[SmokeyJoe]

Thanx, the last one [Europe]. Is the guy I have been in contact with, he says they do not buy back bikes or cannot help beyond the warranty.  I have the AFESS PM getting ready to help me out next week.

[Yzernie]

OMG, A wire harness is a tricky install I can only imagine the number of ways they can mess that up, hope it works out for you.

I'll disagree.  Other than the bike having to be pretty much disassembled, replacing the entire wiring harness is a pretty straight forward process.  Labor intensive may be why they haven't done it yet.

[SmokeyJoe]

I'll disagree.  Other than the bike having to be pretty much disassembled, replacing the entire wiring harness is a pretty straight forward process.  Labor intensive may be why they haven't done it yet.

I am pretty sure this is the route they will take this week.  Great Sig Pic!

[Maladjusted]

When you said the bike won't start... would it turn over with enough spin to fire?

If not.... this could be a battery issue.

[SmokeyJoe]

Cranks and cranks but never started.

[SmokeyJoe]

So the bike finally got picked up from the HD dealer by HD Germany and the main wiring harness was received.  Hopefully I will hear some good news this week.  My only fear is that it will only be a temporary repair. 

[Cvostu]

Wow.   Really feel bad for you.   So sorry to hear about all these problems. 

[SmokeyJoe]

Thank you to all who rooted for me and the support. 

So today I got the bike back and it is running great.  Better than I can even remember it running when i first got it.  The motor is smooth and dead on idle.  They test drove it for over a 100 miles, I will test ride the hell out of it this Saturday. 

So what I am told they did was change out the main wiring harness and the ECM. 

I am guessing, but not sure I will need a new license for my Power Vision.  I will give it a try later.

[grc]

Thank you to all who rooted for me and the support. 

So today I got the bike back and it is running great.  Better than I can even remember it running when i first got it.  The motor is smooth and dead on idle.  They test drove it for over a 100 miles, I will test ride the hell out of it this Saturday. 

So what I am told they did was change out the main wiring harness and the ECM. 

I am guessing, but not sure I will need a new license for my Power Vision.  I will give it a try later.

The PV is married to that old ECM, so you will need a new license.  But I'd like to suggest that you wait awhile and make absolutely certain the problem is really fixed before going down the modification road again.  As soon as you start messing with stuff, you make it much more difficult to determine if any problem that pops up is related to the previous long running fiasco, or perhaps related to your latest modification.  After going through all of this, I think I'd prefer to just ride the bike for awhile and enjoy the fact it is actually running during the riding season while making certain it really is fixed.

JMHO - Jerry

[SmokeyJoe]

Absolutely what I am going to do.  I think I can hold out for several thousand miles, before it will make me crazy.

[grc]

Absolutely what I am going to do.  I think I can hold out for several thousand miles, before it will make me crazy.

     

Jerry

[redbeard719]

So...how's it looking?  Hopefully it's still running strong!

[SmokeyJoe]

Running good, got my toes crossed. Hopefully this weekend I will have time to put a few hundred miles on it.

[SmokeyJoe]

So my bike started backfiring thru the air filter on startup occasionally.  Before I take it back to the dealer any quick checks I can make?  I am planning a rather long trip for this Saturday and don't want to miss it.

[sadunbar]

So my bike started backfiring thru the air filter on startup occasionally.  Before I take it back to the dealer any quick checks I can make?  I am planning a rather long trip for this Saturday and don't want to miss it.

That's the classic sign of a failing compensator, but given all your previous issues, I hesitate to point you directly towards the compensator...

Absent your previous issues, however, I'd suspect your compensator...

[rheiner]

My 2010 SEUC was doing exactly as you describe. The backfiring was LOUD when it happened. Replaced the compensator and problem solved. The inside teeth that mate with the motor shaft were worn and loose.

[SmokeyJoe]

With only 8k on the bike, the compensator could be shot?

Oh yeah is it safe to ride, i mean what will happen if it goes all the way bad and how long does it take, is it rapid or slow and steady? 

I just got the darn thing back and just want to drive through next week before taking it back to them....

Iwould be super pi$$ed if i had put the headers on already

[sadunbar]

With only 8k on the bike, the compensator could be shot?

Oh yeah is it safe to ride, i mean what will happen if it goes all the way bad and how long does it take, is it rapid or slow and steady? 

I just got the darn thing back and just want to drive through next week before taking it back to them....

Iwould be super pi$$ed if i had put the headers on already

Yes, your compensator could be shot after only 8K miles.  Yes, it is safe to ride.  It could just be a nuisance to start and be a bit noisy in the primary, but no harm to put some more miles on it.   

[SmokeyJoe]

Taking it in Saturday. Technician reprorted it to the Distric Manager.  They have a loaner bike lined up if needed.

[SmokeyJoe]

So I rode the bike about 200 miles before taking it in to the dealer.  He asked if I had any codes, I said before the ride this morning, no.  He did his check and there was P1003, he then hooked it up to his diagnostics and that was the only code.  He changed the system relay and said let's ride it for a while and see if it backfires anymore, since I could not get it to backfire since I thought why not.  While he had it back there he corrected the wire for the HD symbol on the Daymakers, that got left undone from the work before, he also rerouted and tied off the battery tender cable.

[SmokeyJoe]

Couple days later I sit here at the dealer typing this.  So today on the way home from work my idle went to 2000 rims and stayed there.  I tried to restart the bike.  The ride to the dealer brought the idle down to 1600.  If I twisted the grip forward a bit it would go to 1000, if I twisted the grip some more the idle was all over.  So I arrived here and checked the codes

P1001 and P1003. System relay again, doubtful

[SmokeyJoe]

So off I go on another loaner bike.  The tech troubleshot it back to a bad kill switch, makes no sense to me.  They are to do the repairs tomorrow.  Meanwhile AAFES is working on something for me, as in have been relentless with them.

[SmokeyJoe]

Got the bike back this afternoon and put some pretty hard miles on it and all is well.

[FlaHeatWave]

SmokyJoe,

Just read this whole thread today, What a Cluster!!!

'Really surprised (after all the other attempts) that the Harness/ECM change didn't fix. Yours' is definitely a 1 in a million.

Not to get ahead, but when the time comes, DynoJet should give you a new license (or at least show you some love) for the PV, if you send them the documents of the ECM change by Harley.

My heart goes out to you!

[SmokeyJoe]

Thanx for the kind words and support.

DynoJet sent the free extra license code today, so when this is all said and done I will be ready.

[SmokeyJoe]

So the bike appears to be running fine, but since I am constantly checking the codes this evening I found P1001 and 1003 yet again.  First time they changed the system relay and then the kill switch when they saw these codes.  So I will call HD tomorrow and see what they have to say about it.  Meanwhile I hope I get an answer about the prospect of a buy back this week. 

[SmokeyJoe]

Memorial Day - got the bike back (German's worked today)  - So basically it boiled down to the technician could not reintroduce the symptoms and cleared the codes.  Tech took it for long test ride and I did as well last night -no codes
Weather is crappy for the next few days so probably will not get a chance to ride agian to this weekend.

[OBB]

I cringe every time I see that you've posted in this thread thinking the worst. I hope they can get it figured out for you.

[Mr. Warlock]

I cringe every time I see that you've posted in this thread thinking the worst. I hope they can get it figured out for you.

I'm right there with you, every time I see a post for this I say... Oh no, now what's this poor guy going through.

Good luck to you!!

[SmokeyJoe]

Road all last night (dang I am beat this morning) 

Maybe it is finally all good now as I had no error codes.

I spoke with the dealer yesterday and he said since the codes were in historic, it meant that the problem only lasted for a sort stint and then everything was normal as the check engine light was not on.  He also said they generally cannot get HD to reimburs them for historic codes - is this BS?

[grc]

Road all last night (dang I am beat this morning) 

Maybe it is finally all good now as I had no error codes.

I spoke with the dealer yesterday and he said since the codes were in historic, it meant that the problem only lasted for a sort stint and then everything was normal as the check engine light was not on.  He also said they generally cannot get HD to reimburs them for historic codes - is this BS?

Historic codes are saved by the ECM for a specific number of engine start/stop cycles for diagnostic purposes and if the fault doesn't recur they are automatically cleared by the ECM.  I'm not sure what the current number of cycles is, but it used to be 50.  So those codes may have been in there for awhile and not actually reflect anything that has happened since you got the bike back.  And the dealer is probably correct that Harley won't usually pay them to try to figure out noncurrent historic codes, since there is no current fault to find.  It would be like using a two year old angiogram to diagnose your heart's current status, even though you had a bypass one year ago.

Once you know you have all codes cleared, current and historic, if you then find codes of either type you should definitely contact the dealer and H-D.  Even if the codes are historic, indicating an intermittent fault that resolved itself, the odds are those faults aren't going to fix themselves permanently.  With the history of this bike Harley should have no problem authorizing the dealer to try to find the intermittent faults causing those codes.  Or they could just buy the bike back and let you move on to something else.

Jerry

[mastergunnera8]

Thanks for serving..has AAFES gotten back with you yet? I know that post Commanders can ban retailers, especially overseas..maybe Harley Military sales will pay attention to that?

My personal issue is if I cant trust it, It's gone...

[SmokeyJoe]

No word from AAFES yet, just sent him a follow up  email.

By the way I retired from the military 7 years ago, seems like yesterday.  Maybe that is cause I am still working with the military.

So far the bike is running goos with no codes.  Still need to take it out on a long ride, maybe this weekend if the weather and family commitments work out.  Oh yeah and that dam grass still needs cutting with all this rain...  I think, no I am sure the bike ride will WIN when head to head with garden work.

[SmokeyJoe]

So today I road over 400 miles with no issues at all, none, nil, nix.... 

[sadunbar]

So today I road over 400 miles with no issues at all, none, nil, nix....

 

[FlaHeatWave]

'Hopefully your Skunk drama is at an end

[SmokeyJoe]

I certainly hope this is over, I have no idea what I will do with all the extra time I will get back.

[Kilaani]

Oh yeah and that dam grass still needs cutting with all this rain...  I think, no I am sure the bike ride will WIN when head to head with garden work.

Lol, see my post on what did you do with your CVO today....

CVO trumps lawnmower every time.

[SmokeyJoe]

So far all is well.

Planning my first big trip with the bike.  I will be riding in the Swiss Alps in a couple of weeks for a few days.  I am super pumped as this was a bucket list item for me. 

[OBB]

So far all is well.

Planning my first big trip with the bike.  I will be riding in the Swiss Alps in a couple of weeks for a few days.  I am super pumped as this was a bucket list item for me. 

[SmokeyJoe]

So I am back to add more to this thread, I must be jinxed or something.

Yesterday on the way home from work while on a bridge my clutch went out and of course the bike died.  I was lucky and on the down slope of the bridge and I was able to coast without to much effort to a safer area as this was during rush hour and folks were trying to run me over, I mean get home.

Anyway since the guys at the dealership all know me so well, they decided to come get me even though it was only few minutes before closing time.  As I said before great bunch of guys there.

They called today to tell me that the entire master cylinder had to be replaced.  So I have the extended warranty, but as I understand it I need to pay first and then get the money reimbursed.

But really what in the world did I do to someone to deserve this, don't answer that:)

[FlaHeatWave]

Sorry to hear about more drama for you .

Here, with ESP, all you have to pay is the $50. Deductable.

Since your bike has been in the shop so much, I'd talk to HD about giving you a credit (on the original factory warranty) for the extended periods that you were without your bike.

How many miles on the bike ?

[SmokeyJoe]

Yes I was told there is a $50 deduct able, so do you pay the bill in its entirety then file a claim?
The bike has about 12,5k on it now.

[FlaHeatWave]

In the US (I don't know if it's different over there?) the Dealer files the claim and we just pay the Dealer the $50. deductible (per visit). No money up front, no reimbursement...

'Just out of curiosity, roughly how many days out of the initial (factory) warranty period of 2 years was your bike available for you to ride in proper running condition??

[SmokeyJoe]

That's a tough question, if I had to guess I would say 8 months.  The other times it was either In the shop or I was taking short (test ride) cause I was afraid to go on any really trips in fear of breaking down somewhere far from home.

[FlaHeatWave]

That's a tough question, if I had to guess I would say 8 months.  The other times it was either In the shop or I was taking short (test ride) cause I was afraid to go on any really trips in fear of breaking down somewhere far from home.

That's why I termed it "proper running condition" where you could enjoy the bike.

SmokyJoe, believe me, I'm not trying to rub any "salt in the wounds" as I really feel for you!! I commend you for your handling of the situation

I was just wondering if The MoCo made any "goodwill" concessions to you for lost time on one of their "flagship" motorcycles?
 

[SmokeyJoe]

Not at all.  It has been a very painful experience.

AAFES has a sweet deal where they isolate themselves by going through contractor who further isolate themselves by going through layers of subcontractors to the point where it is basically just an import to Germany and nobody can be held accountable through the US or German system.  what I mean by that is there is no one to file a BB claim against, no one to file a Lemon Law claim against cause guess what, no one holds a US business license until you get back to ENCS but they have isolated themselves with subs.  I talked with HD in the US several times and wrote several emails, but they refer me to HD Europe, who does not really care are impossible to talk with because it is a US spec bike.  It is 

[CVOThunder]

Sounds like a big pain and I was thinking about buying through ENCS. Maybe a different story with Stateside delivery/pickup but it still concerns me a bit do deal with them. Glad to see you are up and running now. Bummer about the clutch...added insult to injury I reckon.

[SmokeyJoe]

I am working with ENCS right now to understand how the extended warranty works over here.  From what I am hearing from them and as long as the dealer cooperates it should be fairly painless.  They will cover a rental, tow service and repairs billed directly to ENCS and I pay the 50.  Waiting on a response from the dealer to see if they will play.  I would think there would not be any issues at all with a US delivery.  But I would shop around to make sure you are getting the best price. The little research I did shows they are , but you never know.