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[Black Diamond]

I'm just posting these links on the new EMS device from Revolution Performance as I've not see it on the site. I don't know anything about any of these devices, just FYI for the guys on here that do know this chit.


  Part 1
   Part 2

JW

[Heatwave]

25 minutes of my time lost forever!

 

SBB

I skimmed it in 7 minutes....still ... my time lost forever.

[Twolanerider]

They've got this on their website.  A bit more to read.

http://revperf.com/Precision/index.html

As guessed they say it will work with ECM's back to 2005.  From what little was said in the podcast that seemed likely.  

$800.  So comparable to the T-Max package or to a SERT and a dyno tune.  Perhaps even a bit less in some cases.  Revolution Performance is in the Drag book now too.  So once a Drag number is published maybe likely even 20% cheaper from Jenni.  $600 makes it even more open to consideration.

Real question seems to be how good they'll actually be at constructing base maps relative to your supplied hardware information.  Biggest handicap of course with any "auto-tuners" is that they really don't.  At least not for more than fuel.  The timing map is just wherever it was when you started without regard to how close your base map (wherever it came from) actually matches your hardware or not.

If they're good at building baselines and do so using your actual hardware configuration and can combine this with added sensing ability for the ECM it has the potential to be a very nice product indeed.  Also seen nor read anything that says what they'll do with AFR.  Is it up to them?  Will they set it where you want it even if it's a bit rich relative to their norms?  Other questions too.  But I'm still curious.  Even the skeptic Twolane is curious.

[Heatwave]

I don't know about the business model at all but I'm sure skeptical. The principle appears to be removing your bike's ECU and shipping it to them for "changes" to the ECU's coding and then shipping it back to you for re-installion in your bike.

Seems pretty nuts to send your ECU into a shop that's going to tinker with the primary software that operates your bike. I'd be concerned from both a safety perspective as well as an operational perspective. What if they inadvertently change a major variable in the ECU's code that changes how the throttle responds (in a bad way) or some other major aspect of the bike's operation that causes an "incident"? Who are you going to "go to". HD will tell you to go pound sand for changing the original ECU's function and it's your problem. I doubt this company will stand behind you wrecked bike that might have been caused by a problem in their ECU coding.

What if a year later the bike just doesn't turn over because of the ECU. Who's going to fix the bike if this company is long gone due to a double-dip recession gone bad? Nope....I just don't like this business model at all.

I'd be far more interested in a new ECU that could be installed. IF it didn't work out at least I could go back to the original ECU hopefully without any incidents.

[Twolanerider]

What if they inadvertently change a major variable in the ECU...

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not assuming they're doing everything nuts on just because the advertise it.  Though Rev Performance has a good rep in the vendor world and what they're describing isn't necessarily that difficult (comparable things happen in the automotive world).  Still have to see it to believe.

It sounds like all they're really doing is building a map specific to your hardware, making that the base map (no overlay instructions) and perhaps adding a function to manage the new o2 sensor functions they're adding.  That'd all be done in the one internal area of the ECMs programming that tuning hardware already accesses.  The other two areas of the ECM would still be unaltered.

Obviously Mother Harley would tell anyone that's done this to go pound salt; or at least they could.  That's no surprise though.  It will deter some.  Won't deter others.  But Harley tells guys that live in Florida to pound salt on warranty claims just because they live in Florida.  So most have gotten beyond letting Harley be a deterrent to actually improving the bikes to what they might have been if the opportunity arises.

Want to see what they're doing in far more detail.  Of course skeptical of application effectiveness until it's proved out a bit.  The idea of what they're doing, however, holds some real promise.  If they're doing what I'm guessing/hoping they're doing it's one of those "about time" things that is several years past due.

[Twolanerider]

Was curious enough here to make a phone call and ask some questions.

They are making all the programming alterations they are making in the tuning section of the ECM. 

Even though his description in the podcast sort of suggests otherwise the rep (Andrew) I spoke with said there is no physical alteration to the existing ECM.  No obvious tell-tales to worry a dealership on that count.

He also said that though it's not published yet the kit will soon have a Drag part number.  That means 20% off from Jenni and a $600 tuning kit rather than $800.  If for purposes of discussion now one assumes the map they build to match your bike is a good baseline that's actually a cost effective option (compared to others).

Still would like to actually see their finished product and a close up of the sensor kit's harness they're using to replace the OE parts.  On an 05 that didn't have sensors to begin he says they're little add-on module does as one would expect and connects to the pin outs in the ECM plug that would read sensors if they're there.  On newer bikes that have sensors in place (I didn't ask enough about this to clarify) my impression was the new sensors replace the old and their module connects to the data plug.

Physicalities being as described nothing especially worrisome there.  Still leaves the question of whether or not they're software is crap of course.

[Dennis the Menace]

For what its worth, I got a EMS unit from Brian and have used it for about a month.

First, if you want to tune your own bike and mess with the many parameters of tuning, this product is not for you.  Not saying there is anything wrong with a TTS, TMAX, SEPST, PC, etc.  They are great tools with the right tuner or somewhat skilled DIY-er.  Some of us like to play with the tuners and try to wring that final HP or ftlb of Tq from our motors.  I know, I have used Tmax, SERT and SEPST in the past.

So, if you like to tune your motor yourself, this is not the product for you.  It is not adjustable other than to turn 2 pots to light steady on to adjust for the O2's (wideband, just like TMax) calibration when you first install it.  That is it.

All the inner workings are done by the RevPerf box.  It connects in line with the stock O2 sensor wires, and connects direct to teh wideband O2's you install with the kit.  You connect the positive and negative wires of the box and thats it.  It doesnt use the diagnotstic plug, and doesnt replace anything on the ECM.  If you have a pre-07 bike, there is 2 wires that need to splice into the ECM plug.  Thats it, nothing more needed.  I installed mine in about 20 minutes total.

The business model is to dicsonnect your ECM, put it in the pre-paid UPS red label (overnight) box, and give it to UPS.  Your reprogrammed ECM will be sent back to you and you will have it by 10am the 2nd business day.  I shipped my ECM on Monday evening, had the ECM at 9:30am Wednesday.  Probably faster than most of us wait for a dealer 5k service.  lol

I do not have any idea of what RevPerf does with the ECM while they have it.  All I know is that when I got mine back, all I did was install it, turn on ignition and run button on, and adjust the 2 pots so they wer no longer blinking.  Then, started the bike and let it idle for 5 minutes, and it was ride time.  It was tuned after 5 minutes.  Again, I dont know what takes place during the warmup, but I do know the bike ran noticeably smoother when it first started, and from there after.

It was a noticeable improvement of the stock ECM that I had smart tuned a SEPST map.  I had some rough idle issues we couldnt get tuned out perfectly, and I had a little gap in the 2k RPM range (due to 2-1 pipes most likely).  These issues went away with this product.  No, no crap!  I was impressed that this setup could do that.

The bike ran great and was smoother throughout the RPM range.  It was slight, but it was noticeable.  We know our bikes, we spend miles on them nearly every day, and we get a feel for them.  So, we KNOW when something changes, however slight it may be.  That was the case here.  I noticed the change in the motor running smoother.

So, this is just my experience with this product.  I dont get paid for posting or endorsing the product.  I do this willingly.  I have gotten tired of messing with the motor (I rebuilt it this past spring--a 103 upgrade with Stage 4 pieces) and I just want to ride a stable bike.  I cant beleive the hours I spent all summer doing tuning runs and trying to get everything perfect.  I wasted a lot of my time.  And, perfection never comes, does it guys?  lol

Anyway, its not the best prodcut to end all products.  Its a great product for a niche, just like any other tuner.  I am very happy with it.  And, just riding now and not worrying about the prefect tune.  Its now good enough.

Dennis

[Twolanerider]

Thanks Dennis.  Appreciate the heads up on your experience.  This is a product I've been paying attention to lately also. 

I've got no desire to spend hours riding and reading and riding and fiddling and riding and checking and schlepping computers and then rinsing and repeating to dial in a bike if I don't have to.  That's what dyno guys are for for the lucky few who have good dyno tuners within their chosen range of travel.

Had a great tuner locally.  Who recently retired.  Have local buddies that I help with their maintenance in the usual busted knuckles vs beer ratios.  In that group there are PCIIIs and TTS bikes and T-Max and Race Tuner bikes and a Twin Tec bike and....   well; you get the picture. 

A guy futzes and fiddles and chases and after hours and hours and probably a few weekends of only plodding rather than riding you feel like it's probably dialed in.  The emphasis there on "you feel like" because no matter how well calibrated your butt dyno is you really know you've not got it perfect.

Losing all that is what has me so interested in what Rev Performance is offering here.  They tweak the tuning area of the ECM (not the other areas of the module) specific to your engine specs.  Add some capability in process.  And you plug it in and forget it.

The big "if" will of course be the quality of the maps they build based on our specs.  If they do that well the product is a life saver for anyone who isn't a tuning boffin who can't help wanting to mess with it himself.  I'm going to use their product on the Road King project when it gets that far.  A couple other buddies here locally have decided to do it over the winter also.  If that goes well I'll spend an hour with each of their bikes rather than hours and hours and hours.  It's hard not to like the upside if the bike also runs well.

[Dennis the Menace]

Twolane, I hear ya.  I respect guys that can fiddle with these things and spend all that time getting them right.  I did that with my muscle cars in high school in the 70's and it was fun to do back then.  I thought I would find the same thrill 35 years later, but there were a few times I was ready to call the dealer to come get the bike and finish it for me.  I just didnt have the time (took almost 3 months to do the 103 build) to devote and it wasnt as fun as my younger years.  I went through issues with my Tmax and 2 sets of pipes, as well as switching to SEPST that resulted in taking much of my summer with tuning and futzing.  No more for me.

I have decided to just buy the bike close to the way I want, and a CVO fits the bill.  The Softail, specifically.  It has a little more bling than I want, really, but has a decent motor to start with and good enough performance for me in the mountains of Colorado.  I might re-cam it for the hills, but otherwise I am just going to ride it and leave it alone.  I of course want a good map/tune for the cam, and richen it up from stock lean spec, so the EMS will go just what I want, without introducing any problems areas, IMO.

I will leave all that tuning stuff for the experts, of which I admit I am not one.  In the spirit of this and the HTT site, I try and help guys with what I know/can, and otherwise stick to BS-ing, which I am accomplished at.  lol

Dennis

BTW-I usually sign my posts with "menace" when I am BS-ing, tho not always.  lol  Menace is my alter ego, haha.

[screwup]

keep us posted on your "work with this" twolane. 

[harleyguynv]

Dennis, have you done any gas mileage comparisions compared to what you were getting before? This unit sounds very interesting.

[Dennis the Menace]

Harleyguy, its tough to call if you will see better mileage.  I had a TMax when I got the 103 put together and installed the SEPST a few months later with the new ProPipe chrome.  With both tuners I didnt have an optimal map and the bike didnt run perfectly, and I never had it professionally tuned.

So, it may be expected that I saw about a 3 MPG increase with this tuner on the highway, and maybe a few more miles per tank around town riding.  One could attribute the better mileage to the new tuner, or to the fact the bike ran much better, or the fact that I was no longer futzing with data runs.  But, I did run the snot out of the bike after the PEMS install to try and find weak spots.  But, havent found any.

I get right around 38-40 highway and 34 city with the new setup.  But, this is a built motor and doing a fair amount of WOT twists just for fun and feel the power.  If I were to run cross country with cruise near the speed limit, I am sure that 45 MPG would be seen.  At least in flatlands.  We dont have much here in Colorado, so hills and mountains always impact mileage out this way.

If you have a great tune now, I dont know if you wll see any/much improvement.  But, you might see an increase over stock ECM or a self tune (Smart Tune, etc).  The self tuners get a bike close, but IMO this product will get you closer to a really great tune.  Just my experience on my bike.

Dennis

[erniezap]

I've been running the Daytona Twin Tech self tuning system in my pumpkin with the 124" motor for about 1.5-2 years.  While the product works decently, it does have some issues. Starting could be difficult at times, would sometimes stall coming off of the freeway, stumble off of idle, and generally sluggish throttle response.  Don't get me wrong, it wasn't anything horrible, but it was annoying me.  Installed the RevPerf self tuning system system in the bike yesterday to compare the 2.  There is no comparison!  From initial startup, the bike started easily, idled well, doesn't stumble off of idle, and it feels like a dog on a leash raring to go!  Throttle response is very good, and the bike is a lot more fun!  That being said, I've only had it for a day and the day was chilly.  I still need to take it into San Francisco, sit in traffic, and let it heat up to get a better idea of how it behaves, but first impression says that this will be staying in the pumpkin.  I also like that I don't have to keep tweaking and playing with it as this got old with the Twin Tech.

[Twolanerider]

Thanks for another data point Ernie.  I've been trying to pay a lot of attention to this product lately.  Have been optimistic in its potential while hoping actual use would bear fruit also.

What you describe has been the first impression of a couple of other users I've actually spoken to.  It's also in line with what Brian promised should be the expectation for the product also.  So it's good to see another good first impression.  I'll anxiously await your further impressions.

It's easy to imagine some shops not being excited about such a bolt on tuning aid.  They'll lose labor time.  But for a private shop with no dyno whose goal is just to make the bike run right after mods without spending hours dialing something in to get it even close this seems an option that should be right up their alley.

Thanks again for sharing the impression.  Makes me even more comfortable with the decision to eventually use it in the Road King when it gets that far.

[guppytrash]

Looks like a great product.  Wide band O2 sensors, no need for a lap top, freedom to make performance changes without being held hostage to a dyno tuner. 
I am very happy with my Tmax but would think this is the next evolution. 
I will be watching to see what affect it has on engine temps..
Once again great info...Thanks for posting!

[kraut]

Hmmm, I'm afraid warranty and ESP will be affected by this mod.

Still would like to know what in detail they do change with the ECM ...

[cvobiker]

 I'm ready to give this product a try given I can purchase thru Jenni. Does Drag have this yet? Anyone have the Drag part number?

[Twolanerider]

I'm ready to give this product a try given I can purchase thru Jenni. Does Drag have this yet? Anyone have the Drag part number?

I don't know the Drag part number but have been told by the people at Rev Performance that they are in the Drag catalog now and have inventory in the system.  Worst case effort would be giving them a call to ask for the Drag part #.

[Dennis the Menace]

Kraut, I do not know what all ECM mods might be done, but do know that RevPerf has 1000's of maps for 100's of different motor configs built over the years, and they are dyno tested (info direct for RevPerf).  I know that a map load with as close to your particular setup is done.  Beyond that, not sure, but there are apparently some adjustments in the Delphi units that allow RevPerf to optimize the inputs from their add-on tuner box and widebands for the tune.

The critical piece, according to Brian and his engineer I spoke with, is the injector.  If its changed out, the ECM will need to be sent in to be updated.  So, I presume the accurate fuel pulse width/timing is what they are likely making either more efficient or more accurate.  This would make sense, since the EMS box plugs between the O2 lines and the wideband O2's that come in the kit.  I presume there is very precise O2 readings taken and fed back to the ECM for the AF/MAP/VE calcs and adjustments.

Again, this is a guess, as it is proprietary whatever it is they do.

Dennis

[Heatwave]

Kraut, I do not know what all ECM mods might be done, but do know that RevPerf has 1000's of maps for 100's of different motor configs built over the years, and they are dyno tested (info direct for RevPerf).  I know that a map load with as close to your particular setup is done.  Beyond that, not sure, but there are apparently some adjustments in the Delphi units that allow RevPerf to optimize the inputs from their add-on tuner box and widebands for the tune.

The critical piece, according to Brian and his engineer I spoke with, is the injector.  If its changed out, the ECM will need to be sent in to be updated.  So, I presume the accurate fuel pulse width/timing is what they are likely making either more efficient or more accurate.  This would make sense, since the EMS box plugs between the O2 lines and the wideband O2's that come in the kit.  I presume there is very precise O2 readings taken and fed back to the ECM for the AF/MAP/VE calcs and adjustments.

Again, this is a guess, as it is proprietary whatever it is they do.

Dennis

Sending in your bike's ECM for unspecificed changes and then re-inserting it back into your bike seems like a recipe for disaster. Who's going to fix the bike if it turns out that there's a problem with the ECU coding. A dealer certainly won't touch it. Is this company going to send a mechanic to diagnose the problem if it's related to the ECU? At least with every other tuning option on the market you can either remove it from the bike or reflash the ECU back to an earlier tuning map. This whole approach to tuning seems very risky to me in the long run.

[Twolanerider]

Sending in your bike's ECM for unspecificed changes and then re-inserting it back into your bike seems like a recipe for disaster. Who's going to fix the bike if it turns out that there's a problem with the ECU coding. A dealer certainly won't touch it. Is this company going to send a mechanic to diagnose the problem if it's related to the ECU? At least with every other tuning option on the market you can either remove it from the bike or reflash the ECU back to an earlier tuning map. This whole approach to tuning seems very risky to me in the long run.

Have spoken with the vendor about this.  The area of the ECM they are writing to is the same area we would write to if using SERT or TTS.  Their work also does not effect the use of a SERT or TTS other tuning device that could write to the ECM. 

So if you had a SERT or SSERT or TTS or whatever and were, therefore, able to tweak a map or load a different map on your own at home you could still do the same thing after Revolution Performance loaded their map.  Were the bike running well I'm not sure why you would.  But you could.  Your ability to address the ECM with any tuning tool you might have isn't changed.  The Daytona Twin Tec tool for reading the ECM, accessing codes and doing a few other things also still works as it did before.

[Heatwave]

Have spoken with the vendor about this.  The area of the ECM they are writing to is the same area we would write to if using SERT or TTS.  Their work also does not effect the use of a SERT or TTS other tuning device that could write to the ECM. 

So if you had a SERT or SSERT or TTS or whatever and were, therefore, able to tweak a map or load a different map on your own at home you could still do the same thing after Revolution Performance loaded their map.  Were the bike running well I'm not sure why you would.  But you could.  Your ability to address the ECM with any tuning tool you might have isn't changed.  The Daytona Twin Tec tool for reading the ECM, accessing codes and doing a few other things also still works as it did before.

Then I clearly don't understand what they are doing to the ECU. What you just described sounds like they are simply loading a different map. If it's something more than that then it will still be present on the ECU should their be a problem and a dealership needs to examine the ECU. No I'm afraid this all sounds abit to cryptic from my perspective. In the absence of knowing "exactly" what is being changed on the ECU, I would be very skeptical, but to each his own.

[hogasm]

Then I clearly don't understand what they are doing to the ECU. What you just described sounds like they are simply loading a different map. If it's something more than that then it will still be present on the ECU should their be a problem and a dealership needs to examine the ECU. No I'm afraid this all sounds abit to cryptic from my perspective. In the absence of knowing "exactly" what is being changed on the ECU, I would be very skeptical, but to each his own.

Then do what I did. Purchased another ECM [$50] from someone who changed to a Thundermax and paid the tech at the Dealership[[$25] to match it to my scoot.

Now I have $75 tied up into a spare ECM. Since I do not have warranty left it was not done for that reason...but for someone who is scared to death of the dealer screwing his azz.....well there you go.....easy inexpensive solution to cover your assets

[guppytrash]

Then do what I did. Purchased another ECM [$50] from someone who changed to a Thundermax and paid the tech at the Dealership[[$25] to match it to my scoot.

Now I have $75 tied up into a spare ECM. Since I do not have warranty left it was not done for that reason...but for someone who is scared to death of the dealer screwing his azz.....well there you go.....easy inexpensive solution to cover your assets

Thats what I was thinking! 
Honestly most here have enough mods already it's too late, if I were worried about the warranty I would leave it bone stock!   
30% of the HD's own catalog will void your warranty.
It's why I did not buy the ESP. 
The dealer I bought my 2008 from loved to tell me what was going to void my warranty.  I no longer buy anything from them.  He told me if I installed my own hand grips he could no longer cover the TBW under warranty...I laughed in his face.

This will not be for everyone, but it may be a darn good option for those who are trying to get cooler/better running machines.  Time will tell.

[Heatwave]

Thats what I was thinking! 
Honestly most here have enough mods already it's too late, if I were worried about the warranty I would leave it bone stock!   
30% of the HD's own catalog will void your warranty.
It's why I did not buy the ESP. 
The dealer I bought my 2008 from loved to tell me what was going to void my warranty.  I no longer buy anything from them.  He told me if I installed my own hand grips he could no longer cover the TBW under warranty...I laughed in his face.

This will not be for everyone, but it may be a darn good option for those who are trying to get cooler/better running machines.  Time will tell.

Forget about the warranty. I'm just talking about someone being willing to fix a bike that's showing that it's ECU has been modified significantly in ways that go beyond tuning map variables. Good luck once someone connects the bike to a diagnostic tool. Has anyone attached one of these modified ECUs to a Harley Dealership diagnostic tool to see what kind of "codes" it kicks out?

[guppytrash]

You may have a good point Heatwave.  Again, I think a spare ECU would be a good solution.

Time will tell. 

I sure like the "idea" of how it works.  To early to throw it under the bus or to endorse it IMHOP.

It always leaves me scratchin' my bald head with how passionate/heated the EFI tuner debates always become here at CVOHARLEY.



 

 





 

   

[grc]

I haven't been following this thread, and haven't really researched the product, but just on the surface it appears to me to be very similar to the "wide band" T-Max system, except it uses the stock ECM instead of the T-Max ECM.  Both have separate modules for the "wide band" sensors, both are dependent upon base maps that just as likely don't exactly match your bike, etc.  At least with the T-Max you can make the adjustments to various parameters yourself, without shipping the ECM back to the company.  Is Rev Perf going to include the software to allow you to do this yourself, or do you have to ship the ECM back to them every time you want to make a change?  Or do you spend additional money to buy a TTS so you can tweak the other settings (and possibly screw up whatever Rev Perf did in this first place)?  The SEST and TTS let you change settings for the injectors, for instance, but I just read something in this thread that indicated you have to send the ECM back to Rev Perf if you change injectors.  What's up with that?

Twolane, you've always been one of the first to tell folks that "autotune" isn't really automatic tuning, that it only chases an AFR set in the coding of the map and doesn't deal with timing, and is highly dependent on an accurate base map.  That is an opinion I fully share.  What is there about this system that makes you think it's any different?  I'm confused.


Jerry

[hd-dude]

I'll chime in here...... When this first became available Rev was trying to get me to try it but I was also apprehensive. In many further discussion's with them decided to give it a try. I discussed it with Ernie as we have been dissatisfied with the performance of the twin tec and we gave it a try. As Ernie stated the system performs well right out of the box. There are some very distinct differences between this and the other auto tunes on the market. What Rev has done is basically cracked the code in the factory Delphi ECM. This has allowed them to rewrite the algorithms that control the system and to incorporate real time input from the wide band 02 sensors. They have changed and added to the adaptive leaning tables to allow for wider range of adjustments and faster responses. The system is in closed loop almost full time. The times when it is in open loop is: during the first 30 seconds of startup as the 02 sensors need to heat up, Cold Start, Hard Acceleration, or rapid Deceleration.

They have done extensive testing with the system and have found that you can basically do changes up to about 20% and the system will adapt.

 I have another project that I am using the system on. More feedback to follow........

Here is a link of comparisons between this system and other on the market:

http://www.revperf.com/Precision/compare.html


EDIT: Forgot to add that the changes that they do to the ECM does not prevent the HD Digital tech from reading the trouble codes or perform other digital tech functions from working properly. Needing service on the road would not be a problem if the dealer need the digital tech. Also the DTT Twin Scan unit will still read and clear codes...

[cvobiker]

Then do what I did. Purchased another ECM [$50] from someone who changed to a Thundermax and paid the tech at the Dealership[[$25] to match it to my scoot.

Now I have $75 tied up into a spare ECM. Since I do not have warranty left it was not done for that reason...but for someone who is scared to death of the dealer screwing his azz.....well there you go.....easy inexpensive solution to cover your assets

Exactly what I did.... Got one on eBay $75 bucks last week 

[hogasm]

Exactly what I did.... Got one on eBay $75 bucks last week 

Now if you are in good standings with a tech at the dealership have him/her set it up with your scoot

[Heatwave]

I'll chime in here...... When this first became available Rev was trying to get me to try it but I was also apprehensive. In many further discussion's with them decided to give it a try. I discussed it with Ernie as we have been dissatisfied with the performance of the twin tec and we gave it a try. As Ernie stated the system performs well right out of the box. There are some very distinct differences between this and the other auto tunes on the market. What Rev has done is basically cracked the code in the factory Delphi ECM. This has allowed them to rewrite the algorithms that control the system and to incorporate real time input from the wide band 02 sensors. They have changed and added to the adaptive leaning tables to allow for wider range of adjustments and faster responses. The system is in closed loop almost full time. The times when it is in open loop is: during the first 30 seconds of startup as the 02 sensors need to heat up, Cold Start, Hard Acceleration, or rapid Deceleration.

They have done extensive testing with the system and have found that you can basically do changes up to about 20% and the system will adapt.

 I have another project that I am using the system on. More feedback to follow........

Here is a link of comparisons between this system and other on the market:

http://www.revperf.com/Precision/compare.html


EDIT: Forgot to add that the changes that they do to the ECM does not prevent the HD Digital tech from reading the trouble codes or perform other digital tech functions from working properly. Needing service on the road would not be a problem if the dealer need the digital tech. Also the DTT Twin Scan unit will still read and clear codes...

Very interesting comparison table. Even more interesting that this system includes an override of the Torque Management system of the newer bikes with electronic throttle control. It would be very interesting to see the difference between a bike running with all variables the same other than turning the TM Off vs On.

It's very curious why they couldn't offer a system that enables the user to make these variable changes instead of requiring that the ECU be sent in. Just don't like the idea of turning my ECU over to a business that isn't around the corner but maybe they are onto the foundation of a new tuning system that could be developed for users. If not, I suspect it will have very limited interest.

[Twolanerider]

Twolane, you've always been one of the first to tell folks that "autotune" isn't really automatic tuning, that it only chases an AFR set in the coding of the map and doesn't deal with timing, and is highly dependent on an accurate base map.  That is an opinion I fully share.  What is there about this system that makes you think it's any different?  I'm confused.


Jerry

Jerry, there a few things different.  Some minor and some less so.  At least as I understand what I've been told.

First off, as with the other devices, this doesn't change the timing curve on the fly.  What it does do, relative to engine timing, that T-Max does not is use the ion sensor.  So you gain additions to the full functionality of the stock ECM plus the protection from the ion sensor.  Not using that is something I've never understood about the T-Max.  An oversight on their part.

The importance of an accurate base map is as important as always.  There are differences there also.  What the boss at Rev Performance explained was not a constant draw from a fixed library of static base maps.  They want to know specifics of your hardware build.  They then (based on their experience) build a map that should be accurate to your environment. 

I've seen too many T-Max maps that just weren't close.  Made bikes little more than ping machines.  Some are good.  Some aren't.  It's at times a crap shoot.  Have run in to similar issues (though far less pronounced) with Power Commander maps also.  If Rev Performance really is using a thorough understanding and a wide experience to lay out a timing curve that actually matches a specific hardware configuration it would be an improvement over what is the crap shoot of the "library" of maps we're left with now.

That is, of course, an area of concern also.  We have to rely on the vendor doing a good job creating the map.  They're not a new shop by any means.  Calculations to build a curve to match known specifications wouldn't be hard math (automotive aftermarket does this commonly).  Coupled with an ECM that is made more adaptive than the stock piece we can hope the effort would be effective.  This is, however, the area where practical experience will be our only teacher. 

Limited data points so far have been positive.  Not enough applications to be a true cohort.  But so far so good from those I've seen.

[grc]

Very interesting comparison table. Even more interesting that this system includes an override of the Torque Management system of the newer bikes with electronic throttle control. It would be very interesting to see the difference between a bike running with all variables the same other than turning the TM Off vs On.

It's very curious why they couldn't offer a system that enables the user to make these variable changes instead of requiring that the ECU be sent in. Just don't like the idea of turning my ECU over to a business that isn't around the corner but maybe they are onto the foundation of a new tuning system that could be developed for users. If not, I suspect it will have very limited interest.

Once again I'm a little confused.  I was under the impression that the ETC response curve could be adjusted with the TTS, but the comparison chart makes it look like the TTS doesn't have that feature.  Some of the other comparisons don't look quite right either, but I'm not an expert on any of the systems listed so I can't legitimately call BS. 

Like Twolane said, I guess it will take some real world feedback from real users to tell if this is anything more than just one more approach to liberate dollars from the pockets of Harley owners.  Maybe I'm a little too cynical, but I've run across so many bogus or overhyped miracle products that I just can't help looking for the "catch".  And I still don't buy the idea that they can magically come up with a better base map for any and all of the combinations out there, any more than the Zipper's folks could or the Power Commander folks could.  And the real deal breaker for me would be the necessity to send my ECM to them if I needed changes made to various parameters, such as after changing cams or TB's or injectors or whatever.  I guess time will tell if it's a good thing or not.


Jerry

[Dennis the Menace]

HD-Dude, thanks for the post of the details on this.  I sent a email to Brian today to join this conversation, but he is at a trade show today and will take a look tomorrow.

I am an early adopter I guess, but this product works great and my bike ran better than it did with the previous Tmax or SEPST.

As for updates of the ECM, cant do them yourself, BUT, the ECM will adapt to many change you might make on the bike.  You can install it on a stock bike and run it, then add AC and pipes and not have to send it back in to RevPer for a modded map. If, however, you make any injecotr change, you will need to send it back in.

When you buy it, it coems with a prepaif shipping box.  It will go overnight to Revperf, and they ship it out the same day they get it, overnight to you. I snet mine in Monday evening, had it back by 9am Weds.  Not much wait.  And, they paid shipping both ways!

If you do need to send it back in for a new map, they pay shipping back.  But, I dont think there is a charge for the re-map...you only pay shipping.

RevPerf has 1,000's of maps for 100s of motor combinations they have developed over the years.  So, they arent starting from scratch.  Also, they are doing dyno testing by and independent company to compare their product to others.  Should be interesting.

Dennis

[Twolanerider]

As for updates of the ECM, cant do them yourself, BUT, the ECM will adapt to many change you might make on the bike.  You can install it on a stock bike and run it, then add AC and pipes and not have to send it back in to RevPer for a modded map. If, however, you make any injecotr change, you will need to send it back in.

Dennis, just to clarify a bit should it come up for someone later; the ECM wouldn't need to be remapped if an injector were simply changed for replacement.  That is a same part replacement.  Then you'd only dial in the air setting on the trim pot to calibrate the new sensor.  Change to any different injector, however, and I was told the remap is necessary.

Was also told to count on a remap if work is done that raises engine displacement by more than 20%.  Quite frankly I'd ask them touch it up if cams were significantly changed also; even if displacement stayed the same.  But for the more common pipe and intake changes it should all be good.

[Wheelsnkeels]

Other than the inconvenience of having to send your ECM in to be programmed it sounds like a very good option. (This is most likely to prevent piracy or reverse engineeering of their product)

Especially if it performs as advertised?

[Twolanerider]

I'll chime in here...... When this first became available Rev was trying to get me to try it but I was also apprehensive. In many further discussion's with them decided to give it a try.

Jim, you still just doing your homework on the system or have you set up dealer status for it also?  If so what will the price point be?

[Dennis the Menace]

Twolane, thanks for the catch.  I meant if the injectors were changed to a different flow rate...so, you are correct.  If its same flow rate injector no change needed to ECM.

Dennis

[hd-dude]

Jim, you still just doing your homework on the system or have you set up dealer status for it also?  If so what will the price point be?

Don;
I have Ernie's installed and am doing another later this week on a 106" build I am doing. So the jury is still out on the product for me but so far I am very encouraged with it. When I get a chance I will be taking Ernie's and or this other build I am doing to the dyno to see the real results.

 I have been a Rev Dealer for a few three years now.  I have used their barrels and pistons , head porting and crank services on many many builds. They have been a great vendor and customer service is top notch. For pricing I will start by saying that I won't compete with the 20% off internet whores to make just a few bucks but I will be offering at least the 10% discount on these kits.

[Heatwave]

Once again I'm a little confused.  I was under the impression that the ETC response curve could be adjusted with the TTS, but the comparison chart makes it look like the TTS doesn't have that feature.  Some of the other comparisons don't look quite right either, but I'm not an expert on any of the systems listed so I can't legitimately call BS.  

Like Twolane said, I guess it will take some real world feedback from real users to tell if this is anything more than just one more approach to liberate dollars from the pockets of Harley owners.  Maybe I'm a little too cynical, but I've run across so many bogus or overhyped miracle products that I just can't help looking for the "catch".  And I still don't buy the idea that they can magically come up with a better base map for any and all of the combinations out there, any more than the Zipper's folks could or the Power Commander folks could.  And the real deal breaker for me would be the necessity to send my ECM to them if I needed changes made to various parameters, such as after changing cams or TB's or injectors or whatever.  I guess time will tell if it's a good thing or not.


Jerry

You're confusing 2 different things. I believe almost all of the tuning software alternatives on the market offer adjustment to the progressivity of the electronic throttle control on the newer fly-by-wire throttle bikes that have been released since 2008.

What was new that I've not seen any other tuning software address (and highlighted in the comparison table link provided earlier) is this software's ability to address the ETC Torque Management controls that HD has installed in all of their ETC bikes. There are some that believe this TM algorithym in the HD ECUs is holding back the newer ETC bikes resulting in lower dyno #'s/performance. By managing the TM some believe HD is attempting to soften the torque on the drivetrain in order to reduce warranty claims.

With this software approach to tuning the ECU, it should be easy for someone to run a tuning map with the TM on vs a dyno run with the same map and the TM turned off. TM is a very different beast from simply adjusting the progressivity of ETC.

[Twolanerider]

Don;
I have Ernie's installed and am doing another later this week on a 106" build I am doing. So the jury is still out on the product for me but so far I am very encouraged with it. When I get a chance I will be taking Ernie's and or this other build I am doing to the dyno to see the real results.

Thanks for sharing the impressions Jim.  Understand that while you're still reviewing it can be a delicate balance between collecting info to base your judgment on and sharing those impressions publicly.

You mentioned the company had been good to deal with.  That was part of my gaining an early good impression of the company also.  Had called to ask a hand full of questions on the product.  A conversation that should have been a few minutes was easily stretched to a half hour.  The rep on the phone offered more and more; much more than I asked.  All willingly and easily.

That was good.  What was a surprise and exceptional was what came next.  I was just a potential customer who hadn't even given a last name.  About ten minutes after the call ended my phone rang.  It was Brian calling me back.  Offering a thanks for the call and the interest in the product and offering far more detail and insight than the sales rep was able or allowed. 

It all ended with an invitation to call back in with any more questions.  Have spoken with them a couple more times since as questions came to mind.  The rep has always been very forthcoming.  Good or bad they answer the question.  It's a type of conversation that rarely comes from the vendor channel anymore.  Especially to some joe-blow off the street.

Was all good enough to peak interest in the package more.  Having learned more it's hard not to be interested.  Have a couple of friends here locally wanting to do "something" over the winter.  Pretty sure they'll go this way now.  I plan to on the Road King project.  Will see if I can steer the guys your way come purchase time.

[cvobiker]

Now if you are in good standings with a tech at the dealership have him/her set it up with your scoot

Yup 

[cvobiker]

Jenni is having trouble finding a Drag part number based on description.... Anyone out there happen to have the Drag # ?  I shoot an email off to vender and will post same if I hear back..

[erniezap]

You mentioned the company had been good to deal with.  That was part of my gaining an early good impression of the company also.  Had called to ask a hand full of questions on the product.  A conversation that should have been a few minutes was easily stretched to a half hour.  The rep on the phone offered more and more; much more than I asked.  All willingly and easily.

Don,

When I had a problem which required disassembly(head gasket leak)m they said to package up the heads, cylinders, gaskets, and pistons and they paid for the shipping.  They wanted to look to see what caused the problem.  When I got it back, they had cleaned everything and freshened up the heads including seals, springs, etc!  They said that it was a "good will" gesture.  Now that is customer service!

[Twolanerider]

Don,

When I had a problem which required disassembly(head gasket leak)m they said to package up the heads, cylinders, gaskets, and pistons and they paid for the shipping.  They wanted to look to see what caused the problem.  When I got it back, they had cleaned everything and freshened up the heads including seals, springs, etc!  They said that it was a "good will" gesture.  Now that is customer service!

That is unexpected Ernie.  In a good way of course.  But a lot more than one would have expected or even hoped for anymore. 

It's not as if we don't spend a fair amount of coin with these companies.  It's not just refreshing it's also reassuring to hear of cases where the companies actually give a damn in return.

[guppytrash]

That is unexpected Ernie.  In a good way of course.  But a lot more than one would have expected or even hoped for anymore.  

It's not as if we don't spend a fair amount of coin with these companies.  It's not just refreshing it's also reassuring to hear of cases where the companies actually give a damn in return.

X100
Customer support with this stuff is absolutely the highest priority for me.  Make a good product and then stand behind it!  Seems simple and yet it is so hard to find.
If this EMS is reliable and works as advertised it will be a home run.

[erniezap]

Had the bike out yesterday and cold/warm starting is a lot easier and the bike is just a lot more fun to ride due to smoothness and throttle response.

[hd-dude]

Jenni is having trouble finding a Drag part number based on description.... Anyone out there happen to have the Drag # ?  I shoot an email off to vender and will post same if I hear back..

Here they Are....

1020-1366 New EMS PRECISION 04-05 SFTL
1020-1367 New EMS PRECISION 06-10 SFTL 
1020-1368 New EMS PRECISION 04-05 DYNA 
1020-1369 New EMS PRECISION 06-10 DYNA   
1020-1370 New EMS PRECISION 04-06 FLH 
1020-1371 New EMS PRECISION 2007 FLH 
1020-1372 New EMS PRECISION 2008 FLH 
1020-1373 New EMS PRECISION 2009 FLH 
1020-1374 New EMS PRECISION 2010 FLH 

[Steve Cole]

I do not know anything about this new kit and how it works on each bike but I can straighten out a few things about the ECM. The area that is programmed by this kit only contains the calibration area, the operating system software is not changed. The stock ECM will correct about 20% and this kit list the same thing so I would assume that it is just using the stock code for corrections. There is no selection within the ECM to just switch Torque Management on or off, sorry but it does not work that way. As for the Broad Band conversion this was done years ago in the automotive side but is no longer being used by most. If you look at an LM1 from Innovate Motorsports it does the same thing. What these boxes do is to take a Broad Band sensor and convert it's output to be the same as a narrowband sensor. To tell if this kit is doing the same thing one just needs to look at the data coming off ECM and see if it still shows a switching signal.

[cvobiker]

Here they Are....

1020-1366 New EMS PRECISION 04-05 SFTL
1020-1367 New EMS PRECISION 06-10 SFTL 
1020-1368 New EMS PRECISION 04-05 DYNA 
1020-1369 New EMS PRECISION 06-10 DYNA   
1020-1370 New EMS PRECISION 04-06 FLH 
1020-1371 New EMS PRECISION 2007 FLH 
1020-1372 New EMS PRECISION 2008 FLH 
1020-1373 New EMS PRECISION 2009 FLH 
1020-1374 New EMS PRECISION 2010 FLH 

Yup just got it from Revolution, BTW they intend to address Steve Cole's claims..

[Heatwave]

I do not know anything about this new kit and how it works on each bike but I can straighten out a few things about the ECM. The area that is programmed by this kit only contains the calibration area, the operating system software is not changed. The stock ECM will correct about 20% and this kit list the same thing so I would assume that it is just using the stock code for corrections. There is no selection within the ECM to just switch Torque Management on or off, sorry but it does not work that way. As for the Broad Band conversion this was done years ago in the automotive side but is no longer being used by most. If you look at an LM1 from Innovate Motorsports it does the same thing. What these boxes do is to take a Broad Band sensor and convert it's output to be the same as a narrowband sensor. To tell if this kit is doing the same thing one just needs to look at the data coming off ECM and see if it still shows a switching signal.

Can you provide any thinking on what exactly this system "might" be doing with respect to Torque Management? I found it interesting that this system is "addressing" torque management while all other tuning options do not, at least as displayed on their comparison chart.

What exactly could be addressed in this system related to TM that all the other tuning systems are not addressing?

[Twolanerider]

Can you provide any thinking on what exactly this system "might" be doing with respect to Torque Management? I found it interesting that this system is "addressing" torque management while all other tuning options do not, at least as displayed on their comparison chart.

What exactly could be addressed in this system related to TM that all the other tuning systems are not addressing?

I've always been very interested in Steve's insights on the TTS product, his willingness to discuss and share how it works and his ability to contrast it to the prior SERT product.  His company built them all after all.  So no one better to speak to what they'll do and how to do things with them.  On top of all that he's also personally been nothing but helpful and courteous to the users here who have asked questions or needed support.

In this case, however, I think we'd be better served to call technical support at Revolution Performance to ask questions about their product.  Even more so when Steve has readily admitted the EMS package is not a product he is familiar with.  

Steve has been courteous in the past sharing information on his package.  And he's rightfully questioned those not familiar with his package when they spoke of it without knowing all they should know of it before speaking.  Getting information straight from Rev Performance (or perhaps Jim as one of the product's users and vendors) would seem better for both us and the vendors than would questioning a competitor who's admittedly never had hands on the product.

[guppytrash]

I've always been very interested in Steve's insights on the TTS product, his willingness to discuss and share how it works and his ability to contrast it to the prior SERT product.  His company built them all after all.  So no one better to speak to what they'll do and how to do things with them.  On top of all that he's also personally been nothing but helpful and courteous to the users here who have asked questions or needed support.

In this case, however, I think we'd be better served to call technical support at Revolution Performance to ask questions about their product.  Even more so when Steve has readily admitted the EMS package is not a product he is familiar with.  

Steve has been courteous in the past sharing information on his package.  And he's rightfully questioned those not familiar with his package when they spoke of it without knowing all they should know of it before speaking.  Getting information straight from Rev Performance (or perhaps Jim as one of the product's users and vendors) would seem better for both us and the vendors than would questioning a competitor who's admittedly never had hands on the product.

Well said!  No disrespect to Steve.  
Henry Ford would not be the guy to ask about a Chevrolet or a Chrysler.  

[Heatwave]

I've always been very interested in Steve's insights on the TTS product, his willingness to discuss and share how it works and his ability to contrast it to the prior SERT product.  His company built them all after all.  So no one better to speak to what they'll do and how to do things with them.  On top of all that he's also personally been nothing but helpful and courteous to the users here who have asked questions or needed support.

In this case, however, I think we'd be better served to call technical support at Revolution Performance to ask questions about their product.  Even more so when Steve has readily admitted the EMS package is not a product he is familiar with. 

Steve has been courteous in the past sharing information on his package.  And he's rightfully questioned those not familiar with his package when they spoke of it without knowing all they should know of it before speaking.  Getting information straight from Rev Performance (or perhaps Jim as one of the product's users and vendors) would seem better for both us and the vendors than would questioning a competitor who's admittedly never had hands on the product.

Agreed however Steve is the resident expert on how TM is managed on our bikes. Perhaps someone from RevTech could be encouraged to follow-up and post information regarding their product on this forum. In the absence of their direct participation in this thread, wouldn't all the information be suspect. I see no reason why others shouldn't respond to technical questions about this product (in their absence) otherwise what exactly is the point of the thread since there's no one from the company directly posting?

[HD Street Performance]

I thought TM was a big hitter. I found out otherwise from others, in a question on another board that could have been answered in a few simple sentences, such as: "it does not effect power output on the dyno runs that take only ~6sec."

Why are the FBW bikes for the most part done by 5,500 rpm? I see the trend that's all and wonder why? There may be a rogue high flier here and there but this seems to be the norm.

There is value in a tuner that is truely plug and play. We will see.

[Heatwave]

I thought TM was a big hitter. I found out otherwise from others, in a question on another board that could have been answered in a few simple sentences, such as: "it does not effect power output on the dyno runs that take only ~6sec."

Why are the FBW bikes for the most part done by 5,500 rpm? I see the trend that's all and wonder why? There may be a rogue high flier here and there but this seems to be the norm.

There is value in a tuner that is truely plug and play. We will see.

There must be some benefit to actively managing TM, otherwise why is RevTech pointing it out as a feature they offer that no other tuning approach provides?

[revperf]

First of all thanks for the interest in our product. I wanted to take time to answer a few questions that I thought were deserved a fair answer.

1.   The EMS (your ECU) looks to an H-D dealership just like a TTS or SERT from a functional and/or diagnostic perspective.  It just has a different Cal ID.  Digital Techs or other scan tool devices communicate in standard fashion.  DTC codes are all the same and the standard trouble shooting diagrams from H-D can be followed.

2.   Torque management is a loaded question…  There are several systems in play especially in DBW vehicles.  Steve Cole is absolutely right that you can not just flip a switch and turn it off.  There are multiple parameters that must be modified in order to effectively disable different aspects of the system.   We disable all necessary parameters in the proper fashion.  Steve has been under a great deal of undue pressure lately about the TM.  TM is not going to be an issue whatsoever with regards to a dyno run whether you are using our system or a TTS.  That's not how it works.  Steve has a great product and lots and lots of satisfied customers.  This should in no way turn into a back and forth on the two different products. 

3.   We do not use a broad band conversion to imitate a switching style sensor signal.  This has been done for years by others, and has some definite disadvantages as far as response control speed is concerned.  We prefer to control with the data from the wide band O2 sensors directly, and our modifications allow this to happen seamlessly



Thanks to everyone who has responded and we will keep watching, and answer as appropriate.

[Steve Cole]

Can you provide any thinking on what exactly this system "might" be doing with respect to Torque Management? I found it interesting that this system is "addressing" torque management while all other tuning options do not, at least as displayed on their comparison chart.

What exactly could be addressed in this system related to TM that all the other tuning systems are not addressing?

I did not want to get into the middle of what it may or maynot be doing but there are a few things being stated that are incorrect, so I stepped in on those things only. I provided you a way to test to see what was going on with the O2 system and left it at that. For the record TTS has been the first and only device to  address Torque Management and it has been done in our product since day one, so it's not new, so the claim that REV is the only one is way off base and I think that is fair to point out. What this reprogramed ECM is doing with the system and not doing with the system I am not going to get into as I do not feel it's right.

[Heatwave]

First of all thanks for the interest in our product. I wanted to take time to answer a few questions that I thought were deserved a fair answer.

1.   The EMS (your ECU) looks to an H-D dealership just like a TTS or SERT from a functional and/or diagnostic perspective.  It just has a different Cal ID.  Digital Techs or other scan tool devices communicate in standard fashion.  DTC codes are all the same and the standard trouble shooting diagrams from H-D can be followed.

2.   Torque management is a loaded question…  There are several systems in play especially in DBW vehicles.  Steve Cole is absolutely right that you can not just flip a switch and turn it off.  There are multiple parameters that must be modified in order to effectively disable different aspects of the system.   We disable all necessary parameters in the proper fashion.  Steve has been under a great deal of undue pressure lately about the TM.  TM is not going to be an issue whatsoever with regards to a dyno run whether you are using our system or a TTS.  That's not how it works.  

3.   We do not use a broad band conversion to imitate a switching style sensor signal.  This has been done for years by others, and has some definite disadvantages as far as response control speed is concerned.  We prefer to control with the data from the wide band O2 sensors directly, and our modifications allow this to happen seamlessly



Thanks to everyone who has responded and we will keep watching, and answer as appropriate.

I still didn't read anything that would clarify exactly what your TM feature is doing that is not addressed by other alternative HD tuning approaches. I don't mean this to be a loaded question. I'm just trying to understand what it does since it's one of the features REVTECH has promoted that is exclusive to your tuning approach that others don't offer. Any elaboration would be appreciated, even if the reality is that it doesn't provide any benefit at all vs other tuning approaches.

[guppytrash]

GEEEZZZ
 Heatwave
You are like one of Michael Vicks dog's going after a raw steak.  
I just reread all your posts on this so far.  Your arm must be tired...that's a whole lot of grenades you have been throwing.
Is there a reason why you are putting a bullseye on this target?

Do you tune bikes for living?  Why so threatened?  

This could be the biggest flop or the greatest thing since EFI....I dunno

One last thing...I think its Rev Performance...not REVTECH

[Heatwave]

GEEEZZZ
 Heatwave
You are like one of Michael Vicks dog's going after a raw steak.  
I just reread all your posts on this so far.  Your arm must be tired...that's a whole lot of grenades you have been throwing.
Is there a reason why you are putting a bullseye on this target?

Do you tune bikes for living?  Why so threatened?  

This could be the biggest flop or the greatest thing since EFI....I dunno

One last thing...I think its Rev Performance...not REVTECH

My apologies on the wrong name. My interest is solely personal from a technical perspective. I'm considering a new tuning system as I currently own the SEPST. I'm simply an individual bike own that enjoys tuning my own bike. I see that Rev Performance offers a feature capability that no other tuner offers (Torque Management according to their own literature) and I'm intrigued. I try to get a straight answer and I get run arounds, non-answers and now attacks for asking the question.

It's obvious to me that when there's no clear answer that there's a reason the answer is hidden. You may be satisified but I'm not. I challenge you to find a single grenade I've thrown. I've shared honest opinion (for whatever it's worth) and asked legitimate questions such as what the benefit is of the Rev Performance TM feature . Deal with it...or not. Makes no difference to me.

[Twolanerider]

I try to get a straight answer and I get run arounds, non-answers and now attacks for asking the question.

A suggestion.  Before damning them completely give them a call and ask the question.  I've called several times with questions.  They've been nothing but polite and forthcoming.

A couple of questions I asked knowing beforehand the answer would likely be some version of "that's proprietary."  They said that but still found a way to answer enough of the question to get the job done.

This site nor this format is their tech support medium.  They never said it was so I'm not sure it's fair to cite them for not doing in depth tech support here.  If they seem dodgy over the phone when you speak with them share that here too.  All facets of the vendor's response and product are what we're interested in here.

[hogasm]

My apologies on the wrong name. My interest is solely personal from a technical perspective. I'm considering a new tuning system as I currently own the SEPST. I'm simply an individual bike own that enjoys tuning my own bike. I see that Rev Performance offers a feature capability that no other tuner offers (Torque Management according to their own literature) and I'm intrigued. I try to get a straight answer and I get run arounds, non-answers and now attacks for asking the question.

It's obvious to me that when there's no clear answer that there's a reason the answer is hidden. You may be satisified but I'm not. I challenge you to find a single grenade I've thrown. I've shared honest opinion (for whatever it's worth) and asked legitimate questions such as what the benefit is of the Rev Performance TM feature . Deal with it...or not. Makes no difference to me.

If you like to play with your......then this is not for you. It is a plug and play device. With advice that you could tweak out a few more hp/tq then go with a different device.

If it is too hard to make a phone call to Brian or Andrew at Revolution Performance 920-892-2109 or to another company that makes a tuning device that you might consider....and you believe everything printed on any forum....you deserve what you end up with.

[guppytrash]

Heatwave
 
It's not a personal attack, just trying to find out where all your passion is coming from.  I always like a devils advocate approach.

Just saying in your first post... in 7 minutes you had determined it was a waste of time.
By your second post...you were skeptical, concerned for safety, the company was not going to stand behind their product, and I think they were going to be out of business.  

Just go back and reread...you come at this with both barrels blazzin'

I can deal with it and even appreciate it.  Just sayin' if your looking for a straight answer call Rev Performance.  But you may want to start with a little more of an open mind before you dial.

If this thing works and is reliable, I will want it, and so will everyone else.  Check that not everyone will, this could really hurt some of our most knowledgeable people here.  Guys that make there living selling a competing product or those who use a dyno to make a living.  For those folks I hope it is a total flop, but for the rest of us, I hope it works and is reliable.  Again...Time will tell.

Keep asking good questions, but read between the lines, depending on who you ask you may very well be getting the run around.

[revperf]

Please feel free to give me or any of staff a call at any time. Heat, if you get a minute please give me a shout and we can talk about your questions. I was not trying to give you an evasive answer in my post. Your topic is something that is way easy to talk about then write about.

BN

[cvobiker]

A suggestion.  Before damning them completely give them a call and ask the question.  I've called several times with questions.  They've been nothing but polite and forthcoming.

A couple of questions I asked knowing beforehand the answer would likely be some version of "that's proprietary."  They said that but still found a way to answer enough of the question to get the job done.

This site nor this format is their tech support medium.  They never said it was so I'm not sure it's fair to cite them for not doing in depth tech support here.  If they seem dodgy over the phone when you speak with them share that here too.  All facets of the vendor's response and product are what we're interested in here.

X1
I've been emailing and calling them.. So far they are very responsive and eager to address any concerns without making claims 'mine is better than yours'.... I like these folks, and as TwoLane pointed out,,, call them, so far they seem to have time to discuss your issues, but I have a feeling these guys will be very busy sooner than latter..I'm an old fart and have played around with tuning more than I should have,,, time is getting to precious,, I plan to spend the rest of it riding and not worrying about the 'next tune'. I'm happy and satisfied this product will do what they claim, and if not, it won't be the last time I threw money away... Seems to be the story of our lifes... Time to ride boys and girls... And not worry

[cvobiker]

http://revperf.com/Precision/index.html


$800.  So comparable to the T-Max package or to a SERT and a dyno tune.  Perhaps even a bit less in some cases.  Revolution Performance is in the Drag book now too.  So once a Drag number is published maybe likely even 20% cheaper from Jenni.  $600 makes it even more open to consideration.

TwoLane,,

Just got a quote from Jenni,, better deal then thought..she is selling for $448.00   

[Heatwave]

Heatwave
 
It's not a personal attack, just trying to find out where all your passion is coming from.  I always like a devils advocate approach.

Just saying in your first post... in 7 minutes you had determined it was a waste of time.
By your second post...you were skeptical, concerned for safety, the company was not going to stand behind their product, and I think they were going to be out of business.  

Just go back and reread...you come at this with both barrels blazzin'

I can deal with it and even appreciate it.  Just sayin' if your looking for a straight answer call Rev Performance.  But you may want to start with a little more of an open mind before you dial.

If this thing works and is reliable, I will want it, and so will everyone else.  Check that not everyone will, this could really hurt some of our most knowledgeable people here.  Guys that make there living selling a competing product or those who use a dyno to make a living.  For those folks I hope it is a total flop, but for the rest of us, I hope it works and is reliable.  Again...Time will tell.

Keep asking good questions, but read between the lines, depending on who you ask you may very well be getting the run around.

To be fair, I wasn't interest in the product UNTIL 2 questions/issues were addressed. The first dealt with how a dealer's instruments would "see" the ECU after REV Performance's modifications were made. This answer came later in the thread and was positive from my perspective in that it's not going to throw any unusual codes that would result in a dealership telling you to "hit the road" if you have an engine management issue.

My level of interested changed from "I would never send my ECU to a mailing address that I know very little about", to "Tell me more" after this clarification on the dealership diagnostics.

Then someone posts a comparison table of Rev Performance's tuning features to other tuning products on the market. That comparison shows REV Performance as addressing a number of tuning features of interest to me, one being Torque Management since I own a TBW 2010 HD. Some have suggested that TM is holding these bikes back from performing as strongly as their cable-operated brethren. Others suggest that TM is irrelevant to their performance.

Either way, TBW bikes with the same displacement and engine upgrades are generally performing at levels 10% (peak) below bikes without TBW TBs (based on my general review of dynos charts that have been shared). If this 10% reduction is due to TM (and I'm not convinced it is yet), then I would certainly like to better understand why REV Performance is promoting TM as a feature that they offer that no one else offers.

What benefit is REV's TM providing that is not available from any other tuning approach? If the benefit is compelling, then my interest in this product goes up substantially. To date, the only response regarding this question result in run-around answers. I see know reason why a basic response on a forum like this on the topic of why TM is a feature that REV highlights as unique to their product should be so difficult to respond to.

Even if you don't care for my style in getting there, does this background help others in understanding where my positions and questions regarding this product are coming from?

[revperf]

Heat,

I see that you are online right now.  I am in the office and would enjoy visiting with you about the product.  My number is 920-892-2109 or if you will PM me yours I would be happy to call on my dime.

BN

[Twolanerider]

TwoLane,,

Just got a quote from Jenni,, better deal then thought..she is selling for $448.00   

That's homework I'd not done yet.  Still far enough away on the Road King project wasn't necessary and the locals who it now seems will go that way sometime this winter either hadn't looked or hadn't mentioned.

Many spend that (or close to it) for just a spin on a dyno.  And that's a crap shoot and doesn't buy the hardware/software package.  The same money buying the tune and an enhancement of the bike's base hardware moves the product beyond interesting to an almost "must do" for anyone who like me anymore is only interested in the end result.  Get no satisfaction of runs on the bike with a laptop hooked up chasing calibrations or other data just to "dial it in" halfway close.  If I can be good to begin will gladly let the package have the credit for getting me there.

[hd-dude]

TwoLane,,

Just got a quote from Jenni,, better deal then thought..she is selling for $448.00   

Unless they are in business to loose money that is not going to happen. This price is way way way below dealers cost! If its true i know where i'll be buying them.....

[Twolanerider]

Unless they are in business to loose money that is not going to happen. This price is way way way below dealers cost! If its true i know where i'll be buying them.....

With their posted MSRP that price does seem unbelievably kind.  Couldn't help but think it might be a mistake.  Just like Jim Jenni is good people.  Would be worth letting her know this one is worth reviewing.

[FNGw/08SERK]

That's homework I'd not done yet.  Still far enough away on the Road King project wasn't necessary and the locals who it now seems will go that way sometime this winter either hadn't looked or hadn't mentioned.

Many spend that (or close to it) for just a spin on a dyno.  And that's a crap shoot and doesn't buy the hardware/software package.  The same money buying the tune and an enhancement of the bike's base hardware moves the product beyond interesting to an almost "must do" for anyone who like me anymore is only interested in the end result.  Get no satisfaction of runs on the bike with a laptop hooked up chasing calibrations or other data just to "dial it in" halfway close.  If I can be good to begin will gladly let the package have the credit for getting me there.

      

[cvobiker]

With their posted MSRP that price does seem unbelievably kind.  Couldn't help but think it might be a mistake.  Just like Jim Jenni is good people.  Would be worth letting her know this one is worth reviewing.

Jenni got a call in very quick order.. She miss quoted the price and sent me a correction - actual cost is $560.. per Jenni about two mins ago..   

[Twolanerider]

Jenni got a call in very quick order.. She miss quoted the price and sent me a correction - actual cost is $560.. per Jenni about two mins ago..   

That's good news.  At that price it's still a bargain compared to the purchase of a tuning hardware/software package and someone's dyno time.  Makes for a very effective price point.

The qualifier of course is that it works as advertised.  Limited data points so far have all been favorable though.  Even full MSRP is fair compared to the other costs and time of getting one dialed in.  Can only hope the responses to use continue to be good.

[HD Street Performance]

Either way, TBW bikes with the same displacement and engine upgrades are generally performing at levels 10% (peak) below bikes without TBW TBs (based on my general review of dynos charts that have been shared). If this 10% reduction is due to TM (and I'm not convinced it is yet), then I would certainly like to better understand why REV Performance is promoting TM as a feature that they offer that no one else offers.

I am not sure I can agree with 10% but I have seen a steady decline in performance with these bikes.
I am now confident TM is just a red herring but still don't know the root cause. Some very big motors with great heads and cam are laying over too soon and they are not shorted for air, 100% MAP is present.

[cvobiker]

Either way, TBW bikes with the same displacement and engine upgrades are generally performing at levels 10% (peak) below bikes without TBW TBs (based on my general review of dynos charts that have been shared). If this 10% reduction is due to TM (and I'm not convinced it is yet), then I would certainly like to better understand why REV Performance is promoting TM as a feature that they offer that no one else offers.

I am not sure I can agree with 10% but I have seen a steady decline in performance with these bikes.
I am now confident TM is just a red herring but still don't know the root cause. Some very big motors with great heads and cam are laying over too soon and they are not shorted for air, 100% MAP is present.

A little bit of time and experience with this product in our hands will let the cat out the bag in short order... For any of you engine builders/tuners out there,, i would bet Rev Perf would jump to providing some sort of test unit if arrangements were made to promote their product.. This is just my assumption  and defiantly worth a try for some of you.... HurryUp... make a deal,,, lots of us are waiting on the limp.. 

[Dennis the Menace]

Related to this topic, but sorta off.....

RevPerf has joined this site as a sponsor, so kudus to them for joining and supporting all of us here.

Now, back to your program......

[jaxx]

pricey

[cvobiker]

Related to this topic, but sorta off.....

RevPerf has joined this site as a sponsor, so kudus to them for joining and supporting all of us here.

Now, back to your program......

And I second the kudo's 

Welcome RevPerf 

[cvobiker]

pricey

I don't think so,, i tend to agree with TwoLanes point.. see reply #76

[guppytrash]

pricey

Compared to what?  Seems like a bargain to me.

[Heatwave]

Please feel free to give me or any of staff a call at any time. Heat, if you get a minute please give me a shout and we can talk about your questions. I was not trying to give you an evasive answer in my post. Your topic is something that is way easy to talk about then write about.

BN

Great conversation with these guys (including one of their software engineers) today. Learned alot. This product seems like an ideal solution for the guy looking to plug/play/ride with as little fussing as possible. Might not be as ideal for the guy that wants to "tinker" and make manual adjustments since there's no user interface, but if you're looking for a plug/play "self-tuning" approach, they are worth a phone call to learn more and to see if it would be suitable for your needs.

[Dennis the Menace]

SBB...they are a vendor.  And member. Sorry for the misquote.

Dennis

[SBB]

SBB...they are a vendor.  And member. Sorry for the misquote.

Dennis

          

SBB

[kraut]

let's see if I sorted out all right what was told to us:

1. OEM O2-sensors will be changed to wide band sensors

2. additional controller will be installed similar to a pc

3. ECM will be flashed with a) in tuning section only with OEM plus unknown code and b) a new base map

4. the ECM afterwards will appear and act as before and if accessed by SESPT or Digital Technician no difference will be shown.

and conclusions:

1. system stays in closed loop almost all the time and ajusts both AFR and timing on the fly

2. changes up to 20 % from the new base map are supposed to be "autotuned", mayor changes (esp. injectors) need reflashing the ECM.

3. you still may change the base map by SESPT/TTS or other device yourself if you wish - and see fit - to do so.

so after all info gathered here this seems to be the solution for everybody who has no or only mediocre tuning capability with standard tools at hand.

I may give it a try next year when factory warranty has expired. Meanwhile please post further experiences 

[cvobiker]

let's see if I sorted out all right what was told to us:

1. OEM O2-sensors will be changed to wide band sensors

2. additional controller will be installed similar to a pc

3. ECM will be flashed with a) in tuning section only with OEM plus unknown code and b) a new base map

4. the ECM afterwards will appear and act as before and if accessed by SESPT or Digital Technician no difference will be shown.

and conclusions:

1. system stays in closed loop almost all the time and ajusts both AFR and timing on the fly

2. changes up to 20 % from the new base map are supposed to be "autotuned", mayor changes (esp. injectors) need reflashing the ECM.

3. you still may change the base map by SESPT/TTS or other device yourself if you wish - and see fit - to do so.

so after all info gathered here this seems to be the solution for everybody who has no or only mediocre tuning capability with standard tools at hand.

I may give it a try next year when factory warranty has expired. Meanwhile please post further experiences 

To sum it all up,, and if it works.... It's simply 'Simple' 

I talked to folks at RBRacing yesterday and learned their new digital dual AFR meter can be spliced into the Wide band sensors and provide dual purpose operation, monitor AFR under actual driving conditions and provide data for seamless REV Performance EMS operation. I will adapt the AFR meter when i install the EMS. At least this will provide some monitoring of AFR in real life cycles.  I also plan to adapt the DTT Twin Scan so to capture/log actual data cycles under various loads/conditions.  This in itslef will tell us if the REV Performance is telling us the 'real deal' and i dont doupt that they arent.. Just nice to have proof in the pudding   

[kraut]

good you guys do the testing for us 

We got 5 F and some 10 inches of snow in front of the garage, some more to come tonight - riding finished early this year 

[guppytrash]

good you guys do the testing for us 

Yes, Thanks to the testers.
And keep the information coming.
 

[WildClyde]

Jim, HD-DUDE, replaced the Daytona Twin Tech III on my '07 FLHTCUSE2 with the new EMS from Rev Performance last Saturday. The bike now runs as good as it has ever run! Gone are the random hard starts (especially when the bike was hot), occasional backfires, and other TT III anomalies.

For me the Twin Tech III has always been erratic - it worked well most of the time and then it would suddenly be a pain in the butt - usually when friends were waiting for me to get the bike started after a gas-up. Jim tuned and tweaked the TT III map but we were never able to get it to run as well as the Rev Performance EMS does right out of the box.

One other note about the TT III: it somehow messes with the clock signal on the engine management bus such that the Harley Advanced Audio Navigation Module will not sync up satellites properly after being replaced/reset. Swap the TT III with a stock ECU and the Harley Navigation Module initializes properly. Swap back the stock ECU with the TT III and the Navigation Module contines to work. Go figure.

I'll add my name to the list of endorsers of this product.

Clyde

PS: Anyone who wants a used TT III contact me offline.

[HD Street Performance]

I'd like to see what the dyno looks like if Jim ran one. Thanks for the report.

[erniezap]

I will bring my 124 in for a pull or 2 the next time Jim has a dyno scheduled.  Since I have results from the Twin Tech it should be a decent comparison.

[Twolanerider]

I will bring my 124 in for a pull or 2 the next time Jim has a dyno scheduled.  Since I have results from the Twin Tech it should be a decent comparison.

Enough miles yet to make a fair comparison of fuel usage?

[erniezap]

Haven't done a whole lot of riding sunce the weather has been crappy, but gas mileage seems to be about the same.  Was getting ~185 miles on a tank before and this seems similar.

[revperf]

Thanks so much for using the product Clyde and we are glad you are enjoying it.

Revperf

[Twolanerider]

Thanks so much for using the product Clyde and we are glad you are enjoying it.

Revperf

Brian, was discussing your EMS product with a couple buddies over breakfast one morning last weekend.  Had a couple questions come up that I'd not seen answered before.  Both related to potential problems while on the road.

First was can you provide an OE number for the o2 sensors used in the kit?  Should something fail out in the boonies somewhere a part number that could be carried in to an auto parts store could be a help because you know any Harley shop will be useless.

Second question was on the map installed in the customer's ECM.  If the customer requested it would you supply a copy of the map on disk that could be carried in the bike?  Same logic as with the sensor.  If an ECM craps out somewhere a dealership could at least load the map in a replacement to get you home.  Wouldn't have any other changes you make.  But would at least be a good base tune to finish a trip.

[revperf]

Brian, was discussing your EMS product with a couple buddies over breakfast one morning last weekend.  Had a couple questions come up that I'd not seen answered before.  Both related to potential problems while on the road.

First was can you provide an OE number for the o2 sensors used in the kit?  Should something fail out in the boonies somewhere a part number that could be carried in to an auto parts store could be a help because you know any Harley shop will be useless.

Second question was on the map installed in the customer's ECM.  If the customer requested it would you supply a copy of the map on disk that could be carried in the bike?  Same logic as with the sensor.  If an ECM craps out somewhere a dealership could at least load the map in a replacement to get you home.  Wouldn't have any other changes you make.  But would at least be a good base tune to finish a trip.


Great questions!  Let’s address them in order.  The OE number for the Bosch sensor is #17014.  It is a very standard LSU 4.2 sensor and is readily available at most parts stores.  The only real difference is the connection end for the harness, which is unique, but could be spliced onto the new sensor in an emergency.  Let’s talk about how the bike will react if you should fail a sensor.  There are fail-safes written into the system that when the ECM recognizes that a sensor has failed or even starts to provide very skewed data, the bike will revert back into open loop protective mode and keep going.  Obviously it will not be running optimally but it will get you there.  Then you can make a decision as to how you want to proceed.  We keep 750-1000 sensors on the shelf at all times and they can be overnighted out at a moment’s notice or you can go the parts house route for the time being.   As soon as the sensor is replaced, the ECM recognizes that the data is acceptable and goes right back into adaptive mode and you are on your way as before.
The second question has to do with the ECU and/or map.  Because of the unique way that we code the ECU we can’t supply a map to you for you to load because the dealership wouldn’t be able to load it in the manner that we do.  But before panic sets in, let me stress that the same logic holds true for the ECM as for the sensor.  If you were at a dealership they could just replace the ECM with a new one and flash it to get you going for the short term.  Same situation would hold true if you have a T-Max and no extra OE ECM with you or if you don’t have the equipment to reload a TTS or PC map back into the new ECM.  The other option is that we have a cache of emergency ECM’s on the shelf at all times that can be programmed with your original cal file that we store on a protected server and can be sent overnight, early AM if necessary, to wherever you are in the world and you simply plug it back in a go.  No trying to find a dyno, no re-learning of the system.  You have to buy the ECM but we charge you nothing to re-load your system.  Let me stress something though, the instance of a true ECM failure with the equipment today is extremely rare per-capita.  Nonetheless, we have made every attempt before we even released this product to take into account these scenarios and provide unparalleled customer support. 

Brian
   

[Twolanerider]

Nonetheless, we have made every attempt before we even released this product to take into account these scenarios and provide unparalleled customer support. 

Brian
   

Thanks Brian.  That all seems reasonable.  That 17014 is the same sensor packaged with the Thundermax and has proved readily available.  That you're keeping a cache of ECMs in house that can be used for next day replacement satisfactorily would handle that potential issue also.  Especially when you could cool your heels at a hotel pool for a day waiting for the FedEx truck the next morning before taking ten minutes to swap the ECM before breakfast.

[HD Street Performance]

I installed the EMS last night. Had it for a while but weather here has been the pits so I was delayed. REV Perf is busting ass to provide great support and deserves kudos for that. I am probably what would be considered a real "problem customer". My bike has not run right from the inception with the 117. I had a DTT on it at one time, a real problem and left me stranded once. Then went back to the stock ECU and a TTS. No major issues just a small problem area that would have been worked out in time. But that is time I do not have and I thought I would dive in and try the EMS. I also have a bad preconcieved bias about "self-tuning" devices without the aid of a MAF system.
So far I am very impressed. The install took 30 minutes to install and I fired it up. It was late and cold so I just let it warm up and then started to rev it to the problem areas, 1800-2200 and the uneven reversion behavior was gone. Now just a steady beat. I will get it on the road and report back. I am cautiously excited about this product and if it works on my problem child it will certainly be great on most of the builds I supply heads for. This will take one persistent problem out of the whole process of modifying these motors, finding a great tuner or dealing with laptops and road tuning.  In a few cases a custom tune might yield a few more hp but in my case I do not care I want driveability and reliability. In a lot of cases a custom tune may go the other way if the tuner does not understand procedures to optimize fuel and spark. So that is just one ritual I am hoping to do away with as we don't have any good tuners close by to Seattle that I am aware of and I have tried most of them or my customers have.
We will see, I will report more.

[erniezap]

I put the 124" on the dyno yesterday just to see what the air/fuel looks like with the RevPerf ECM.  The HP/Torque numbers were similar to the Daytona Twin Tech, and the A/F number varied between 12:1 & 13.5:1, but mostly stayed around 13:1.  Not quite as flat as the Twin Tech, but I haven't been riding it much due to weather so the tuner might not have gotten itself adjusted yet.  That being said, the difference in throttle response, starting, and idling are so major that I will be using this going forward.  Anyone want to buy a used Daytona Twin Tech set up?

[eleft36]

This is very interesting even for this successful and satisfied TMax user, yes I have spent thousands of miles tweaking my map.

I almost think it runs perfect now.

Thank you all for sharing your technical intelligence.

I wish every one A Healthy, Safe and Happy New Year.

Al

[hellmut73]

Any further reports on dyno results??? 

[revperf]

Any further reports on dyno results??? 

Hellmut,

Here is a sheet from Open Road H-D comparing the system to an SE tuned 110. 

Brian

[brypink]

Hellmut,

Here is a sheet from Open Road H-D comparing the system to an SE tuned 110. 

Brian

Brian,

Any dyno comparisons/results with built engines? 

Thanks,
Bryan

[revperf]

http://www.roadglide.org/showthread.php?t=3823&page=2

Bryan,

Try this link.  This graph is from a built 124". I was really hoping that the guy that owns it was going to post it because I think it adds a lot more credibility than the manufacturer doing it.

Brian

[ultraswede]

Here is the same dyno file, from an "vendor for sale thread;
http://www.hdforums.com/forum/vendor-for-sale-classifieds/593896-revolution-performance-precision-ems.html

[revperf]

Thanks Ultra!  There are more on the way. 

Brian

[hd-dude]

That 124 dyno sheet is a build I did for Erniezap. Not sure how it got over on hd forums being used by that reseller

[Twolanerider]

That 124 dyno sheet is a build I did for Erniezap. Not sure how it got over on hd forums being used by that reseller

That's the lack of citation and accountabilty in net usage of just about anything Jim.  If it exists anywhere it's perceived to belong everywhere.

[revperf]

Jim,  I spoke with Drago about that sheet and Ernie gave permission to post it.  It was meant to merely show the aspects of the EMS. This engine was designed and built by Jim at Metal Dragon, not by the re-seller that posted it.

[brypink]

That 124 dyno sheet is a build I did for Erniezap. Not sure how it got over on hd forums being used by that reseller

FWIW, the reseller did originally state it was "not" his dyno sheet.  I also checked to see if the post had been edited ("Last editied by..."), which the post had not been.  

[cvobiker]

As soon as i get my 131 back from rebuilder and after break in, i plan to install the EMS and take it over to Bob to compare before the SERT/DTT Twin Scan and after with the EMS... The only difference we will see between these two motor scenarios will be about two years of time and the EMS in place of SERT/DTT.. This will be an interesting take to see side by side dyno sheets....   If my wallet holds together we should see this around Feb, early March....

[erniezap]

As soon as i get my 131 back from rebuilder and after break in, i plan to install the EMS and take it over to Bob to compare before the SERT/DTT Twin Scan and after with the EMS... The only difference we will see between these two motor scenarios will be about two years of time and the EMS in place of SERT/DTT.. This will be an interesting take to see side by side dyno sheets....   If my wallet holds together we should see this around Feb, early March....

That is what I did on my 124.  I had it dyno'd with the Daytona Twin Tech several months ago, then with the RevPerf EMS recently. During the RevPerf pull, Bob was sitting on the bike which caused the HP & Torque to go down about 5 each.

[cvobiker]

That is what I did on my 125.  I had it dyno'd with the Daytona Twin Tech several months ago, then with the RevPerf EMS recently. During the RevPerf pull, Bob was sitting on the bike which caused the HP & Torque to go down about 5 each.

Did you post the two dyno sheets.. would be interesting to compare both side by side.

[erniezap]

Here is the side by side

[Rooster]

Looks really nice Ernie. Interesting AFR line, looks like all 13.5 or richer. 

[hogsty]

At WOT, at which most dyno runs are made 13.5 should be common.  That's that problem with dyno sheets.  The bike could post great numbers and run like crap at cruise.  I'm not sayong this one did, I fully expect it didn't, but it is possible.

[smiley1049]

Does anybody know if this system works on the 2011 Touring.
Chuck

[uscanuck]

Does anybody know if this system works on the 2011 Touring.
Chuck

Instructions say it does but you need to either use 2009 head pipes or get the 18mm? old style O2 bungs welded into your existing pipes.  I think I read somewhere else that RevPerf will do this to your pipes if you send them back with your ECM for reflash.  Extra cost but not sure how much.

[revperf]

We currently have just a couple more tests to run over the next couple of weeks and we should be good to go on the '11's.  Sorry about the wait but we want to make sure that there are no surprises on both our end and yours.  If you are using your OEM head pipes the bungs have to be welded in.  We charge 50.00 to do this and the pipes are all vacuum tested when we are done to insure that there is not even a minute pin hole.  We have done this recently for a couple of people and what we do is ship the kit out inside a box big enough for you to return your head pipes.  Naturally, it adds a couple days to the process but it hasn't been a problem for folks so far.  Like was said before though, if you run most '09 performance exh. systems they already have the bungs in them.

Thanks!

Brian

[revperf]

Just a quick addendum to the above post.  You MUST get the bungs first before you send the pipes though.  The reason is that we get you to put the bungs against the pipes and trace around them where the O2 sensor goes.  That way when we weld them in we know that you have already confirmed that the sensor is not going to get into the head or frame or something else.  This is a biggie.

Brian

[shanefromwa]

Jenni got a call in very quick order.. She miss quoted the price and sent me a correction - actual cost is $560.. per Jenni about two mins ago..   

Please post or pm me her number! Someone?

[Twolanerider]

Please post or pm me her number! Someone?

Quoting the response to the request in the other thread:

It's Jenni Sapyta at TriCounty Harley.  Email at jsapyta@aol.com or the dealership's phone is 513-874-4343.

[shanefromwa]

Quoting the response to the request in the other thread:

Damn that was quick! Thanks fellas!

[Twolanerider]

Damn that was quick! Thanks fellas!

Got it installed yet ?

[cvobiker]

Damn that was quick! Thanks fellas!

Shane,,

The $560 I posted last month is incorrect, actual cost after 20% discount is $639.96

[shanefromwa]

Appreciate the response fellas, my 2010 FLTRX is currently torn down and getting a fresh bore at 107 with axtell pistons, Deweys Street Pro Heads (compression will be at 10.6-1)  and TMAN 590 cams.  Will be using a D & D Fatcat as well.  My EMS should be here by the end of my build, can't wait to see the results!

[Twolanerider]

Appreciate the response fellas, my 2010 FLTRX is currently torn down and getting a fresh bore at 107 with axtell pistons, Deweys Street Pro Heads (compression will be at 10.6-1)  and TMAN 590 cams.  Will be using a D & D Fatcat as well.  My EMS should be here by the end of my build, can't wait to see the results!

Should run strong Shane.  Here's to miles of smiles when you get it back .

[cvobiker]

I'm getting excited.    got my Jim's 131 along with my EMS package delivered all the same day. Sending the heads to Charlie today and the ECM to Rev Performance for calibratration. Two weeks away from feeling the cool breeze...   once again

[Twolanerider]

I'm getting excited.    got my Jim's 131 along with my EMS package delivered all the same day. Sending the heads to Charlie today and the ECM to Rev Performance for calibratration. Two weeks away from feeling the cool breeze...   once again

Is head work on the new engine all you're doing to it out of the crate?  Have read others saying the initial cams weren't ideal either.  I never ran the specs on one of those engines though so really had no idea how much was accurate and how much was a continued case of dollar-itis.

Two weeks more of withdrawal?  You gonna make it?

[sadunbar]

Is head work on the new engine all you're doing to it out of the crate?  Have read others saying the initial cams weren't ideal either.  I never ran the specs on one of those engines though so really had no idea how much was accurate and how much was a continued case of dollar-itis.

Two weeks more of withdrawal?  You gonna make it?

The JIMS lifters don't have much of a reputation either....   

[Twolanerider]

The JIMS lifters don't have much of a reputation either....   

Oh yeah, didn't even think about that.  Also remember someone writing of problems with an overly small throttle body relative to the displacement.  But don't even know if those engines come with a TB or if that was a shop's choice.

[sadunbar]

Oh yeah, didn't even think about that.  Also remember someone writing of problems with an overly small throttle body relative to the displacement.  But don't even know if those engines come with a TB or if that was a shop's choice.

Standard without... 

But I believe you can order them with a carb...

[cvobiker]

Is head work on the new engine all you're doing to it out of the crate?  Have read others saying the initial cams weren't ideal either.  I never ran the specs on one of those engines though so really had no idea how much was accurate and how much was a continued case of dollar-itis.

Two weeks more of withdrawal?  You gonna make it?

Twolane,,, Last October I started a project to upgrade cams to a set of S&S 640 gear drive cams in my Jims 131, which i've had for a little over three years. Once i got the cam cavity opened up i checked the run-out and measured 14/1000's,, Not good  . Since the motor was slightly over two years out of Jims warranty i called SB Charlie to arrange getting the motor to him for a complete rebuild. Charlie tells me that Jims had a run of bad cranks during the time i purchased the motor and suggest i contact them to see what they would do for me. To my surprise Jims said they would cover the rebuild at no expense, other than shipping cost and labor to install (which i did). Now that i have the motor back from Jim's, the heads are going out to Charlie for a CNC valve job and minor porting since the Jim's heads are already CNC ported. He will also set the heads up for the 640 camshaft. Along with the cam change I will be adding a Fueling oil pump, Fueling cam plate, Woods directional lifters and Smith Bro's push rods. If all goes as planned i should have this up and running by mid February, broke in and ready for our anual road trip to Death Valley in March. Sending the ECM off to Rev Performance today and looking forward to seeing how well she runs with this setup, which is a big relief since i dont have to hassle with a dyno tune.. The Death Valley trip will defiantly be a good road test for the EMS.. and your write up will help me get through this install.... more to come...   

[Twolanerider]

Sending the ECM off to Rev Performance today and looking forward to seeing how well she runs with this setup, which is a big relief since i dont have to hassle with a dyno tune.. The Death Valley trip will defiantly be a good road test for the EMS.. and your write up will help me get through this install.... more to come...   

A lot of hassle to get to a good place.  But it does sound like a good place is where you'll end up.  Nice improvements being done there.  If your experience with the EMS product continues what several have seen so far you'll be pleased.  Your circumstance is the type where an option like this can shine too.  Guy buttons up a nice engine build and just wants have it ready to ride.  No delays for dyno scheduling or lost time actually riding the engine break-in because you have to collect data logs on tedious runs to dial it in yourself. 

All the boring details notwithstanding; it's got to make an engine build a lot more fun.  You can look forward to just firing it up and riding it when you're done bolting things together and wiping off finger prints.  Those first hours on a new build when things often aren't tuned well can cause some tension.  Warranted or not it's a time that's not as much as it should be.

[StrGlide]

These are the current part numbers from Drag Specialties for Revolution Performance EMS.

DRAG PART#          DESCRIPTION                                 Notes
1020-1366           EMS PRECISION 04-5 SFTL   
1020-1367           EMS PRECISION 06-10 SFTL   
1020-1368           EMS PRECISION 04-5 DYNA   
1020-1369           EMS PRECISION 06-10 DYNA   
1020-1370           EMS PRECISION 04-6 FLH   
1020-1371           EMS PRECISION 2007 FLH   
1020-1372           EMS PRECISION 2008 FLH   
1020-1373           EMS PRECISION 2009 FLH   
1020-1374           EMS PRECISION 2010 FLH           REQUIRES 18MM O2 BUNGS IN EXH
1020-1526           EMS PRECISION 2011 FLH           REQUIRES USE OF AN 08-10 ECU (Temporary issue)