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[Steve Cole]

Andy

Here is a thread for you to post up all your HD scatter graph information.

[SBB]

Now that's funny Steve.
A thread for all those that can't get along on that other site that want to come over here and bash you.
Cool!
Are there really people that petty?

 

SBB

[whittlebeast]

<<<<<<<< Warning >>>>>>>>>

This thread may get a little geeky in time with lots of graphs and math stuff.  I find this stuff amazing and now verify all tunes this way.  I use all sorts of auto tune programs all of the time but I always verify them with these concepts.  Yes they do break and get the wrong answer in some situations.  The trick is to be able find the exceptions..........

<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am waiting to get some good data off one of the CAN bikes to do this for a Harley motor.

In the mean time, here is a sheet put together for the Sporty world a few years ago showing lots of the concepts.  Some of this is unique to the 2007-2013 Sportys that has apparently finally been fixed on the 2014 Sportys.

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1ZpG7F_7q3g5MQW3BkgfZtQuHZ6W7nWUTeJ9Gw49FuZ%208

I also threw together a page demonstrating some of this.  This sheet assumes that you have a fairly good handle on basic tuning so.....

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/

Most of this stuff can be done in Excel or Open Office but you would need to be good a graphing.  I elect to use Megalogviewer HD as it was designed from day one as a engine management graphing tool and it is really fairly cheep.  It should open up any Power Commander data log directly.  It should open up any TTS log if the log is exported out of the TTS software as a CSV file.  TTS DM3 files often open directly.

Have fun tuning

Andy

[North Georgia Hawg]

Now that's funny Steve.
A thread for all those that can't get along on that other site that want to come over here and bash you.
Cool!
Are there really people that petty?

 

SBB

Chip - I guess you haven't been over there. I have, and yes, there are LOTS of petty people over there. That's why I quit going there.

Ken

[Twolanerider]

My dogs do scatter graphs all over the yard.  Try to mow often enough don't have to pick them up otherwise.

[North Georgia Hawg]

My dogs do scatter graphs all over the yard.  Try to mow often enough don't have to pick them up otherwise.

When we bought the Badger Den last November, the first thing I had done was to have a large area in the woods fenced in for our three dogs to do their "scatter charts"... I sure don't wanna SEE 'em!

Ken

[grc]

Some of us were quick to jump on those folks from that other site about taking over some of our threads with their self promotion and little arguments, and they have set up a couple threads of their own to discuss topics near and dear to them without constantly trying to hijack everyone else's threads.  It seemed to me that we were all starting to coexist peacefully, so it's a little disturbing that some of us feel a need to demean Andy and his charts.  The title of the thread is pretty simple and self explanatory, so I would assume that people who don't care about scatter graphs could just refrain from clicking on it and go to the next thread.

If I'm reading something into this that really isn't there, I apologize.

Jerry

[North Georgia Hawg]

Some of us were quick to jump on those folks from that other site about taking over some of our threads with their self promotion and little arguments, and they have set up a couple threads of their own to discuss topics near and dear to them without constantly trying to hijack everyone else's threads.  It seemed to me that we were all starting to coexist peacefully, so it's a little disturbing that some of us feel a need to demean Andy and his charts.  The title of the thread is pretty simple and self explanatory, so I would assume that people who don't care about scatter graphs could just refrain from clicking on it and go to the next thread.

If I'm reading something into this that really isn't there, I apologize.

Jerry

It's just never been explained how all of this data is really useful in improving a Harley tune.

I've been to the page that Andy set up, and I've read it. I just don't get a lot of what he's saying about these scatter charts, what they really show, and how the info can really be used productively to improve a Harley tune.

Now, there's a very good possibility that I'm simply not smart enough to understand all of this... but if Steve Cole doesn't get it, then it either has not been explained effectively, or it really isn't very useful. I can't make that determination.

Ken

[whittlebeast]

NGH

Hang in there and keep reading.  This get really simple and cool once you get the hang of it.

The ECU outputs lines of data that (generally are a snapshot in time of what the motor was seeing at any given moment.  Each one of these rows of data is known as a record.  To keep things simple for now lets picture just MAP, RPM, TPS, Ignition Advance Front and Rear, VE front and VE Rear, 02 volts front and o2 volts rear just to keep it simple.

A scatter plot in it's most basic form, can group together every time that the motor reported some specific MAP and some specific RPM and count up how many times that happened in a ride.  In MLVHD you can pick "Hits" and use the third color to represent how many times MLV saw that exact RPM and MAP and display the hits as color.

Things get a little more interesting when you start adding the third axis to display say average o2 voltage front as you may have hit that combination of MAP and RPM over the ride.

We will take on the more abstract plots later.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is an example.



Horizontal is throttle position limited from 0 to 25%

Vertical is RPM

On the left plot, colors represent average O2 voltage

On the right plot is the same motor but with the widebands displaying AFR in color.

Andy

[hrdtail78]

I am glad I can post anything about TTS and not have the same swingers jump in and bring up the same issue.  IMO is a non issue.  Baiters and haters.  Thanks to the mods for letting us these threads. It is not that we want to argue between ourselves. But would like to have THE argument. Without it being pulled in the exact same direction. Complete BULLchit.  I am still a member (barley) of HTT and think of it as a good site.

I called Andy a troll.  End to a means. Now I can post data, and can see what these scatter graphs can do. Win, win.

[whittlebeast]

Here is a solution to scatter plotting that appears to be rather cool.  This happens to be a Sportster.

http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/at2_log1/MAPvsINJPW?:embed=y&:display_count=no

http://public.tableausoftware.com/profile/mkw87#/

I have not really played with this SW package.

Andy

[SBB]

If I'm reading something into this that really isn't there, I apologize.

Jerry

No problem Jerry!

 

SBB

[SBB]

Chip - I guess you haven't been over there. I have, and yes, there are LOTS of petty people over there. That's why I quit going there.

Ken

Hey Ken

Look forward to meeting you in Maggie Valley!

 

SBB

[whittlebeast]

So no questions on the previous scatter plot?  You all see how to read it?

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is an example of a scatter graph that can reverse engineer the timing table that the motor is running.  I flipped the RPM upside-down to make it easier to see the timing table that is generating the reported timing at the data cable.

RPM is in the vertical scale and MAP is in the horizontal scale.  Color represents timing at each RPM and MAP.



Any questions?.....

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is a sample trace where you can see the lambda target on the left and the average lambda that I actually get at the o2 sensor.  The data matches fairly close.  Note that this is a bike in open loop that was tuned on a TPS based tuning.

Notice that the RPM has been flipped compared to the previous post.  MAP is still on the horizontal axis.



Any questions?

Andy

[FLTRI]

Wow! Andy, you're right, it jumps right out at you doesn't it?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

We are only just scratching the surface at this point.  This motor is fairly well tuned so tuning issues aren't showing up in these plots.

Keep reading along.....  We will get to that stuff.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is a motor displayed in Speed Density on the left (RPM and MAP) and on the right in Alpha-N (RPM and Throttle position)



In color is the number of hits or the number of times the motor visited this part of the map.  Points displayed  in red imply that is where the motor spends most of it's time on a normal street ride.

Andy

[North Georgia Hawg]

Hey Ken

Look forward to meeting you in Maggie Valley!

 

SBB

You too, Chip! It will be a GOOD TIME! 

There are a lot of people with whom I have been talking the last two years on this site who I have never met. I should have gone last year. Better late than never! 

Ken

[whittlebeast]

Here is the same view but with the color representing AFR



If you tag in any one spot, the software will give the matching point on the other plot.  This feature will be a big deal later when we get into tune trouble shooting.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is a motor that was driven to allow the Long Term Fuel Trims to take a set.  Then we turned off the Closed Loop and rode the bike.  It is interesting how Harley elected to have very distinct boxes to hold the same value.  I seldom see this on most EFI systems.



Have fun tuning

Andy

[whittlebeast]

The next thing we will get into is basic calculations and filters.  This can be used to see all sorts of things.  This is what is commonly known as a gear chart in road racing.  It is Vehicle Speed plotted vs RPM.  In color is displaying gear or gear ratio in these plots.  Filters are applied to hide the data during shifts.





Filters in MLVHD are simply formulas that you design to throw out data that you do not want displayed.  In this case, I simply threw out all data when Acceleration Enrichment or Decel Enleanment was active.  I used the formula

[Acel Enr]>0 or [Decl Enl]>0 and then turned the filter on for the right plots.

For gear ratio, I used the formula

[RPM]/[VSS]

Have fun tuning

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is a formula that is a little more interesting that we call TpsThrottling.  The formula is defined as

10*sqrt([TP])

What this formula does is take the square root of the throttle angle and multiplies that times 10.  This is loosely the percent of available torque being produced by the motor at any moment in time.  Here is MAP vs RPM and TpsThrottling on the right compared Throttle position on the left.



Have fun tuning

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Wile talking to a "Harley tuner" today, the subject of Harley fuel balance came up.  He mentioned that the Y manifold causes all sorts of strange things.  I told him that is really east to see in both terms of MAP vs RPM and TP ve RPM.  I create the formula.

100*([PulseWidthFr]-1)/(([PulseWidthFront]-1)+([PulseWidthRr]-1))

Note: Your field names will change depending what logger you are using.  The -1 is used to account for the about 1ms dead time for the injectors.

Here is the plot you get....



Notice that in overrun, the balance is a mess.  In the midrange, about 55% of the fuel comes out of the front injector.  At WOT the balance is real close to 50-50.

This happens to be a Sporty.  The results tend to be way closer to even on the BT motors.

Way cool.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

A couple of more shots showing the o2s doing there thing in both voltage and how they have caused the ECU to figure out how to lean on the stock fuel tables.

In this plot, we see the area of the tune where the o2s are "switching"



In this plot we see the long term fuel trims as defined by the formula

100*[VE New Front]/[VE]



This has everything to do with how autotune logic works.  Way cool stuff

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Acceleration enrichment and DE.  I will demonstrate how to test for it later.



Andy

[joe_lyons50023]

Thank you for posting up this information andy

[whittlebeast]

To see AE (and DE) you have to get your head around how Speed Density works at it's simplest form.  The two most significant constantly changing factors that drives the amount of air pumping thru a motor is RPM and MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure).   If you double the RPM, the air flow will generally double.  If you double the pressure in the intake, you double the air molecules in every gulp of air the motor takes.

Bottom line is you can multiply MAP x RPM and you wind up with a mass of air per time.

Now think of Duty Cycle on a fuel injector.  By definition it is a percentage of time that the injector is spraying at full flow, sort of...   It gets a little messy when you consider injector opening time when you consider that at 6000 RPM there is twice as many opening times in 1 min compared to 3000 RPM but we can account for that later if you want.  Lets keep things simple for now.

Now let's bring this all back to scatter graphs....

In this plot we are looking at a totally stock Sportster running almost entirely riding in closed loop.  So the AFR is real close to 14.7, in theory.  We will get to this in a later post.  Suffice it to say,  If you double the air getting into the motor, you need to double the fuel to hold a single AFR.



You can see that when you plot MAPxRPM/100 on one axis and DuyyCycle on the other axis, you get a straight line.  As it turns out the Sporty develops two lines.  Notice that One of the lines a distinctly different color than the other.  Looking at the scale for the color of the line indicates that the o2 are running lean on the lower line and butt fat on the upper line.  As it turns out if the ECU would have delivered the PW that is the tweener of the two lines and the resulting AFR would have been a near dead nuts 14.7 AFR.

Next time I will get into what you are seeing on the right plot.  Hint, Accel Enrichment jumps out at you as static in this view.

Have fun tuning.

Andy

[Coyote.]

Interesting. Are the two lines due to corrections from reading the o2's switching around the set point?

[whittlebeast]

That is correct.  This is the root cause of the hunting that plagues every stock Sporty.  Sporty's can't run in closed loop when in gear.

Andy

[Steve Cole]

Are you sure?
 
How about all the data that the ECM is using that does NOT get sent out on the buss to be captured.
The best you can do on a Sportster is to get about 4 frames per second of data and since the engine is truely running at 8.33 HZ at an idle speed 1000 RPM per cylinder you are NOT seeing over 50% of the data in your scatter graphs at idle alone.

Then, as engine speed increases your scatter graphs show less and less of what is really going on due to the buss issue.
At 6000 RPM you are getting 4 out of 50 or only 8% of the real data the ECM is using!
That's 92% you are NOT seeing!
That is going to leave a huge hole in your plots

You have to start with the basic understand of the system before you can jump to conclusions like you are.

[Coyote.]

I'm not sure I get why you can't run (a sporty, this bike) in closed loop but the rest makes sense to me. I guess I would expect a graph like that for any HD running closed loop. The system has an inherent error around the sensor switch point.

[FLTRI]

I'm not sure I get why you can't run (a sporty, this bike) in closed loop but the rest makes sense to me. I guess I would expect a graph like that for any HD running closed loop. The system has an inherent error around the sensor switch point.

What's the inherent error?? Does it happen with all closed loop NBO2 systems?
Bob

[sam280z]

Steve,
How does the output buss work? Is the output just what is available at the time that an update is required?
If not, and there is some characteristic of the data that drives what is output, I agree with you.

But, if the fact that a data "frame" is output only depends on time, then with enough log time and enough data, there won't be any "holes" in the scatter plot. There may be some "error" (really a lower correlation between variables) if the buss speed is slow enough that conditions have changed significantly between the output of one variable and the output of the next. But if the output algorithm just grabs a snapshot of all variables and then outputs them, then a scatterplot is perfect for looking at it - as long as you have lots of data.

Sam

[joe_lyons50023]

I would agree with the fact that no matter how slow the data stream if you have enough data collected it should be ok but yes with a higher rate of data collection less ride time is needed.  What kind of speeds of data collection are you getting with the 614 cals Steve?   Also why would harley choose TP based VE tables over MAP based VE tables?  Im guessing that there is a MAP vs. VE table in the ecm somewhere but just not used.

Andy how long were most of these recordings that you have.  They look huge.

[whittlebeast]

I typically get about an hours worth of data.  I have a couple of loops I ride that gets lots of different types of data.  I also can open several rides at the same time to get plenty of data.  When I am looking at faster data rate systems, I often look at a half million samples at one time.

[whittlebeast]

Are you sure?
 
How about all the data that the ECM is using that does NOT get sent out on the buss to be captured.
The best you can do on a Sportster is to get about 4 frames per second of data and since the engine is truely running at 8.33 HZ at an idle speed 1000 RPM per cylinder you are NOT seeing over 50% of the data in your scatter graphs at idle alone.

Then, as engine speed increases your scatter graphs show less and less of what is really going on due to the buss issue.
At 6000 RPM you are getting 4 out of 50 or only 8% of the real data the ECM is using!
That's 92% you are NOT seeing!
That is going to leave a huge hole in your plots

You have to start with the basic understand of the system before you can jump to conclusions like you are.

Yes I am sure.

You have to start with the basic understand of statistics before you can jump to conclusions like you are.

This screen shot clearly demonstrates that plenty of data and applying filters as required does wonders.  



Sure there are a few breaks in the data but in EFI tuning, getting a great tune has everything to do with averages.  Scatter graphs do the averaging for you in living color.  

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is an example of AE Testing taken off one of my motors.  This happens to be a jetski sitting at slightly over idle.  I stab the throttle.  You can clearly see the Pulse Width jump up faster than the MAP and then settles in.  That is the AE hitting.  Notice how the AFR is fairly stable.  The motor peaks out at close to 40000 RPM/sec for a short period of time as the motor jumps from 2300 RPM to 7000 RPM in .274 sec.  That works out to a little over 17000 RPM per sec average.  That was all sorted out looking at scatter plots.

I am looking for the motor to jump in RPM as soon at you see the throttle jump.  You will also see the MAP jump up with the throttle.  I never want to see the RPM drop with a throttle stab.  This motor happens to be a 275 Hp 1500 cc motor.



Have fun tuning

Andy

[Steve Cole]

Steve,
How does the output buss work? Is the output just what is available at the time that an update is required?
If not, and there is some characteristic of the data that drives what is output, I agree with you.

But, if the fact that a data "frame" is output only depends on time, then with enough log time and enough data, there won't be any "holes" in the scatter plot. There may be some "error" (really a lower correlation between variables) if the buss speed is slow enough that conditions have changed significantly between the output of one variable and the output of the next. But if the output algorithm just grabs a snapshot of all variables and then outputs them, then a scatterplot is perfect for looking at it - as long as you have lots of data.

Sam

Sam

The HD Buss does NOT allow for a data frame to be collected at one time. It comes out in small packets and those are all stagger in time. Different packets get updated at different rates and at different times. This is how all automotive data buss's send out data and why Andy just cannot understand what he is plotting contains the artifacts of this issue. Until he learns that the artifact needs to be removed he is making nothing other than pretty pictures, as he clearly has no idea what goes with what. Add to that the amount of missing data (up to 92% missing) and it becomes clear why the pretty pictures look like they do, it jumps right out at you.

Let's say for sake of discussion that one data frame contains 20 packets. Each packet gets it's own data updated at various rates. So now you have 20 packets collected at a fixed rate that are staggered in time, with packets that contain data that has been updated at different times. The higher the engine speed the more the data collection update rate and staggering in time becomes an issue. That should give you the basic understanding of what's going on.


Andy

No matter how much you try, until you learn how to understand the raw data IMHO your just making pretty pictures.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

And... for once... lets keep this civil.  Maybe we can start to have some real discussions instead of this devolving into tit-for-tat, like that other site always does.

Lets discuss more about how ANY program sucks the data packets out of the bus.

[sam280z]

Steve,
I see your point, but I see two potential  issues with your argument against usefulness of the data that comes out of this system.
1) The buss refresh rate is about 1 per .12 seconds. So new data comes out once every 12th of a second (8.33Hz). I'm assuming that the data being inserted into a packet is associated with a maximum time interval of .12 secs. i.e the maximum amount of time between two pieces of information reported together in one packet is .12 seconds.  This can be less than some of the lags created by the physical configuration of the motor (input tract length, injector placement, exhaust distance to UEGO sensor, etc...) and computational times of the controller algorithms. What is changing so fast in the engine that this matters, especially for steady state tuning?

2) Let's say it does matter.
    a) If we know something about how the data is related in time, we can address the lags in the scatter plots by plotting the value of one variable from one record/packet against the value of a different variable in an earlier/later record.
    b) If we do not know how the data is related in time, or the timing differences are smaller than the difference between records, we can throw up our hands and give up, or accept that this difference will be the minimum error we can possibly have. We can measure the error in the tune and break it into tune error and measurement error. The buss timing issue would fall into measurement/random error along with things like sensor calibrations. All we can do to minimize the total error is adjust the on the tune to minimize he tune error. Once we get to a point where attempts to reduce error actually increase it, you are done.

Sam

[Steve Cole]

Steve,
I see your point, but I see two potential  issues with your argument against usefulness of the data that comes out of this system.
1) The buss refresh rate is about 1 per .12 seconds. So new data comes out once every 12th of a second (8.33Hz). I'm assuming that the data being inserted into a packet is associated with a maximum time interval of .12 secs. i.e the maximum amount of time between two pieces of information reported together in one packet is .12 seconds.  This can be less than some of the lags created by the physical configuration of the motor (input tract length, injector placement, exhaust distance to UEGO sensor, etc...) and computational times of the controller algorithms. What is changing so fast in the engine that this matters, especially for steady state tuning?

2) Let's say it does matter.
    a) If we know something about how the data is related in time, we can address the lags in the scatter plots by plotting the value of one variable from one record/packet against the value of a different variable in an earlier/later record.
    b) If we do not know how the data is related in time, or the timing differences are smaller than the difference between records, we can throw up our hands and give up, or accept that this difference will be the minimum error we can possibly have. We can measure the error in the tune and break it into tune error and measurement error. The buss timing issue would fall into measurement/random error along with things like sensor calibrations. All we can do to minimize the total error is adjust the on the tune to minimize he tune error. Once we get to a point where attempts to reduce error actually increase it, you are done.

Sam

Sam

I agree with some of what you said. We have to know............ and since you do not know, there lies the problem. While I have a very good handle on it, just taking data from an unknown source then claiming this is the answer doesn't fly here. Andy is taking data collected by another program, so he starts at a lose because he has no way to know where/how any of it fits together.

Again, I want to make sure that you and everyone understands that scatter plots have there place but you must know and understand the pitfalls of them too. Same goes for many of the sensors being used to collect data from, they all have there specifications and you need to know those to be able to weed out the areas that can be at issue due to those tolerances. Using steady state information goes a long way to getting those errors averaged out but that is NOT what Andy has said nor shown.

The last time he did this and posted the raw collected data he used, it was proven to be bad data but he himself never figured it out. So all those pretty charts were just that! This is were I see issue with it and telling people, this is the answer, is a problem to me. This is what I do for a living and I can only share so much but in Andy's case I have to say with reason for saying it is , buyer/reader beware.

[North Georgia Hawg]

Frankly, most of this stuff is flying 40,000 feet over my head. I have read it and re-read it multiple times, and it just doesn't seem worth all of the trouble to me. All of these scatter plots give me a headache after a few moments of looking at them and attempting to SEE what Andy says they show.

As a 30-year software guy, I know that analysis can be done perfectly fine using mathematical calculations, and I don't understand why all of the scatter plots are even necessary along the way. If the data is there and it's good data - a well-written computer algorithm is far more efficient at analyzing it, eliminating anomalies, performing complex statistical analyses, and identifying trends - and producing good results - than is a human looking at charts. There are many software products on the market - and I've used several - that can perform extremely complex analyses on what we call "big data"... literally trillions of rows of data... and the only time they ever create charts is when the results of these complex analyses need to be seen by a human. The charts are used merely to present the results to a human... not to determine how to do the next analysis, nor how to apply the results of the analyses to the end product.

As a user, I just want a tuning device that figures out all of this stuff using the real-world data I have collected during rides, updates my tune, and lets me then enjoy riding the bike more. I think that's what most riders really want. I really couldn't care less about the last 2% of power to be gained, if it means exerting 10 or more times the effort to get it. It's the law of diminishing returns. I'll be more than happy with the first 98%, or even the first 95%, and I am confident that the TTS gives me all that I need and will ever be able to use.

If I were a pro tuner like some of the folks here, then it might all be more interesting and relevant to me... not to mention more understandable. And believe me, I've tried hard to understand. But frankly I can't see how all of this is worth the effort unless you're tuning top fuel dragsters, NASCAR engines, or race bikes - and winning is everything.

I guess my question is: Why is all of this NECESSARY for tuning Harley big twins... especially big hulking 900 lb Touring bikes? The Twin Cam isn't exactly a modern, state-of-the-art racing engine. When is a tune "good enough", and do devices such as the TTS provide a "good enough "tune? Will most riders ever notice an extra ft-lb or two of torque, or 2 extra HP? I may be completely ignorant about this level of tuning... but if Steve Cole doesn't get it either, then it's clearly far above my level of understanding, and way more than I will ever need.

I'll bow out of this thread now, but I'll continue watching it from time to time. It clearly isn't aimed at people like me.

Ken

[whittlebeast]

Did I miss where you asked a question?

[FLTRI]

Andy, I think to get everyone up with you and what you are showing us, first you need to explain scatter plotting and why it's "way cool" to look at and see what's happening. Ie: why you need an hr of data.

Then, after a quick 101 class, explain how you take what you see in the plot and use it to make changes.

For example, "See these dots here? This is why it's not good vs this or this right here means you need to change the VE (s) by x amount to correct the issue."

Or "This is an example of good tune say@ steady-state 2500rpm cruise and this is an example of a poorly tuned steady-state 2500rpm cruise tune and this is how you see it". (Use arrows etc to point to it on the graph.)

Then, when you post scatter plots folks will know what to look for and what/how to make changes to what.

Thanks Andy,
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Frankly, most of this stuff is flying 40,000 feet over my head. I have read it and re-read it multiple times, and it just doesn't seem worth all of the trouble to me. All of these scatter plots give me a headache after a few moments of looking at them and attempting to SEE what Andy says they show.

As a 30-year software guy, I know that analysis can be done perfectly fine using mathematical calculations, and I don't understand why all of the scatter plots are even necessary along the way. If the data is there and it's good data - a well-written computer algorithm is far more efficient at analyzing it, eliminating anomalies, performing complex statistical analyses, and identifying trends - and producing good results - than is a human looking at charts. There are many software products on the market - and I've used several - that can perform extremely complex analyses on what we call "big data"... literally trillions of rows of data... and the only time they ever create charts is when the results of these complex analyses need to be seen by a human. The charts are used merely to present the results to a human... not to determine how to do the next analysis, nor how to apply the results of the analyses to the end product.

As a user, I just want a tuning device that figures out all of this stuff using the real-world data I have collected during rides, updates my tune, and lets me then enjoy riding the bike more. I think that's what most riders really want. I really couldn't care less about the last 2% of power to be gained, if it means exerting 10 or more times the effort to get it. It's the law of diminishing returns. I'll be more than happy with the first 98%, or even the first 95%, and I am confident that the TTS gives me all that I need and will ever be able to use.

If I were a pro tuner like some of the folks here, then it might all be more interesting and relevant to me... not to mention more understandable. And believe me, I've tried hard to understand. But frankly I can't see how all of this is worth the effort unless you're tuning top fuel dragsters, NASCAR engines, or race bikes - and winning is everything.

I guess my question is: Why is all of this NECESSARY for tuning Harley big twins... especially big hulking 900 lb Touring bikes? The Twin Cam isn't exactly a modern, state-of-the-art racing engine. When is a tune "good enough", and do devices such as the TTS provide a "good enough "tune? Will most riders ever notice an extra ft-lb or two of torque, or 2 extra HP? I may be completely ignorant about this level of tuning... but if Steve Cole doesn't get it either, then it's clearly far above my level of understanding, and way more than I will ever need.

I'll bow out of this thread now, but I'll continue watching it from time to time. It clearly isn't aimed at people like me.

Ken

 

[whittlebeast]

Lets look again at a Long term fuel trims plot I posted a few pages back.



I have added a couple of green lines.  The vertical line is at about 32 KPA.  The horizontal line is at about 2000 RPM.  The color of most of the dots is clearly red all around than MAP and RPM.  Red on the scale to the right translates to 105 or 5% extra fuel is being added in most of the cells in that area.

Does everyone that concept on scatter plots?

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Regarding hour long data runs.  More is always better when dealing with statistics.  We all deal with statistics with this stuff.  Many of us just don't realize it.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Andy, I think to get everyone up with you and what you are showing us, first you need to explain scatter plotting and why it's "way cool" to look at and see what's happening. Ie: why you need an hr of data.

Then, after a quick 101 class, explain how you take what you see in the plot and use it to make changes.

For example, "See these dots here? This is why it's not good vs this or this right here means you need to change the VE (s) by x amount to correct the issue."

Or "This is an example of good tune say@ steady-state 2500rpm cruise and this is an example of a poorly tuned steady-state 2500rpm cruise tune and this is how you see it". (Use arrows etc to point to it on the graph.)

Then, when you post scatter plots folks will know what to look for and what/how to make changes to what.

Thanks Andy,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I need data to demo that part.  Most everything I have is already sorted.  40 hz data would be way better than the stuff I have.  This group never seems to appreciate the cool stuff.  Most of the motors I have data from don't really even want to run till 5000.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Throttle response as God intended....



In engine tuning "good enough" is what you say when you are stumped.  You really just need guys better at typing.  Those guys can type.

Have fun tuning

[mayor]

I need data to demo that part.  Most everything I have is already sorted.  40 hz data would be way better than the stuff I have.  The this group never seems to appreciate the cool stuff.  Most of the motors I have data from don't really even want to run till 5000.

When I was a slightly younger lad, I took a college speech class.  One of the first lessons that we were given was know your audience.  You need to know who you are talking to, and know how to gain their interest with what you want to talk about.  It appears that you know this audience based in the above comments, but you haven’t quite made the transition into knowing how to gain our interest.  I bought the MLV years ago when you were active on the HTT forum.  I can honestly say that I actually haven’t touched it in well over a year.  I like the scatter graphs for reviewing some data, but I found that the other tools available to me got me close enough in my own personal tunes that I didn’t find using the program as valuable as the time spent using it.  In the end, I know and understand that with these chromed out tractor motors close enough really is for most folks.  When you have fellows who can run canned maps in open loop that are extremely out of tune to that particular motorcycle and never report negative issues, then it is going to be tough to convince someone that through statistics the motorcycle would be much happier and the owner would notice a difference.  Heck, just afr tuning on some of these bikes would make them happier….but even the thought of that doesn’t appeal to some folks.  I have read your comments on using these scatter plots for quite a few years, and you always seem to be lacking the data to validate your opinion that this stuff works. I’m not saying it doesn’t work, but after several years of you being a crusader for this method of tuning you would think that you could show us at least some sort of proof that this is beneficial to big twin owners.   

I will respectfully be critical of you on one aspect.  When you use words like way cool stuff to describe what you’re doing, I automatically assume that you either can not talk to us in a technical manner or you assume we do not have the ability to discuss things in a technical manner.  Neither of which is showing that you know your target audience in my opinion.   

[redmtrckl]

Zzzzzzzzz

[FLTRI]

Andy, I think to get everyone up with you and what you are showing us, first you need to explain scatter plotting and why it's "way cool" to look at and see what's happening. Ie: why you need an hr of data.

Then, after a quick 101 class, explain how you take what you see in the plot and use it to make changes.

For example, "See these dots here? This is why it's not good vs this or this right here means you need to change the VE (s) by x amount to correct the issue."

Or "This is an example of good tune say@ steady-state 2500rpm cruise and this is an example of a poorly tuned steady-state 2500rpm cruise tune and this is how you see it". (Use arrows etc to point to it on the graph.)

Then, when you post scatter plots folks will know what to look for and what/how to make changes to what.

Thanks Andy,
Bob

[turboprop]

Throttle response as God intended....



In engine tuning "good enough" is what you say when you are stumped.  You really just need guys better at typing.  Those guys can type.

Have fun tuning

Andy, was the car in this video tuned using MLV?

[whittlebeast]

I have no clue how F1 does this stuff.  Indy car and stock car uses similar methods.

Andy

[turboprop]

Andy, I really want to know more, but like my friend Mayor, I too have not seen anything usefull or really interesting with MLV. Would really like for you to post up something that has been tuned using MegaSquirt or any of it's related systems. Please man, post up something useful and enlightening, maybe even dumb it down for the masses. Post up something that we can see and understand as many of us, even those with TTS tattoed on their butt, are always looking for something better or at least another way to validate and confirm.

[North Georgia Hawg]

Andy, I really want to know more, but like my friend Mayor, I too have not seen anything usefull or really interesting with MLV. Would really like for you to post up something that has been tuned using MegaSquirt or any of it's related systems. Please man, post up something useful and enlightening, maybe even dumb it down for the masses. Post up something that we can see and understand as many of us, even those with TTS tattoed on their butt, are always looking for something better or at least another way to validate and confirm.

When did you see my BUTT?

Oops... I'm not supposed to be in this thread any longer... Sorry...

Ken

[whittlebeast]

Andy, I really want to know more, but like my friend Mayor, I too have not seen anything usefull or really interesting with MLV. Would really like for you to post up something that has been tuned using MegaSquirt or any of it's related systems. Please man, post up something useful and enlightening, maybe even dumb it down for the masses. Post up something that we can see and understand as many of us, even those with TTS tattoed on their butt, are always looking for something better or at least another way to validate and confirm.

Did you read this?

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/

Do you really want to see stuff off different systems?

Andy

[turboprop]

Did you read this?

http://www.ncs-stl.com/tuning/

Do you really want to see stuff off different systems?

Andy

I have looked at that, and honestly, it hurts my head and is just real hard to follow. The video you posted of the F1 car was more like what I was looking for, or maybe your sportster. Can I assume you have used MLV to fine tune the tune? Maybe you could post up some pics of the tune using your scatter graphs and the tune as displayed by TTS? That might be a good start, sort of ease us into this.

[hrdtail78]

It's funny how if you have a favorite tuning device.  Little girls want to come on and call you names.

I use a cam 10-I2 times as a bolt in. On a stock 103. I see close to 100 hp and around 110 tq.  I'm not drunk on the kool aid.  It's, I'm sticking to what I know.

[whittlebeast]

I was sent today a new set of injectors and a new "Pro Tuned Setup" for my ski.  Here is the results of the test.  I spent the rest of the afternoon attempting to dial in.  Here is the setup I was running that was fairly well tuned in.



Now here is the so called Pro tune on a shake down run just to see where I was starting from.



The top tune is far more linear in every respect.  You can see where the MAPxRPM vs Duty Cycle has a huge dip and also goes huge lean at that same point.  I was hired to sort out his base tune that will be supplied with his tuning SW package.

I have some work to do.  First step is get him to standardize on injectors somewhere between these to options.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

After a few auto tune sessions , it started to dial in.  I and still not happy with the big blue area on the left pot near the top center.  I am thinking the is a Acceleration Enrichment Hidden table that will need to be exposed the the release SW package to dial this in.  he throttle respons what half what I was aiming for.



You can see that the autotune is making the MAPxRPM ve Duty Cycle more linear indicating to me that the tune is getting better but the MAP vs RPM clearly needs work.

Andy

[hrdtail78]

What do you mean "auto tune" sessions?  Matched injectors?

[whittlebeast]

What do you mean "auto tune" sessions?  Matched injectors?

Autotune has nothing to do with matched injectors.  Most all modern EFI software now has the capability to auto correct the VE table.  The way this is done is a little different from package to package but the concept is always similar.  The PC5s when you have the autotune option does it by having the PC5 and the Autotune module talk back an forth thru a CAN like network cable.  The PC5 keeps track of the MAP and RPM and the Autotune feeds back the AFR.  The PC5 builds the fuel correction tables on the fly as you ride.  The correct tables can be TPS based, MAP bases or both.  In the jetski world, we are stuck with having to kill the motor to apply corrections back to the ECU.  It sucks, but it is doable.

In the Magasquirt world, it can be done one of three ways, depending on if you have a laptop connected to the system wile the motor is running.  Here you have the option to write all the way back to the ECU on the fly all automatically.  The racecar video that I posted on the other thread was tuned as the driver circled the track.

The MLV stuff that I show here is just screen shots of different ways to look at the data to verify the Autotunes are doing as expected and no part of the map is falling thru the cracks of the autotune logic.  In the Megasquirt world, if you can prove to the programmers that you have found a pattern that consistently falls into a crack, the programmers just do some more typing and fix it.  My job is to document the busts in the logic.

MAPxRPM vs DC was one of those things that we stumbled on looking a lots of data off different motors.  At this point, I can  normally pick off a problem tune within a few min of getting the data to the glass.

Apparently I can't say "way cool" any more, so technically interesting.

Andy

[hrdtail78]

What auto tuner are you using?  The injectors you received.  Where they matched?

[whittlebeast]

The ski is running a PC5 aurotune2 and LCD 200

[FLTRI]

Ok, now I think in understand.
You take a PCV w/auto tune and use scatter plots to watch what it does.
All this time I was looking forward to learning something new about tuning.

The auto tune does the tuning and you watch and report cracks in the system.
Much more sense now,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

That is generally correct on the motors I do with a PC5.

Andy

[FLTRI]

That is generally correct on the motors I do with a PC5.

Andy

This clears a bit up for me. I apologize for constantly prompting you for answers to questions you have no way of knowing due to which side of the calibration fence you are on.
Carry on,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Most of the time I only care about things like does this thing have 15 to one compression, HUGE cams or does it have HUGE injectors that is why the bottom end is a challenge to dial in.  Most of the time I tune to where the logs lead me.  Motec, Haltech, PV, Holley, Megasquirt... it really does not matter that much.  The trick is having access to the data.  The more data, the easier it is.  Sometimes it takes a hour ride to get enough data.  I have about a 30 hour log off my 2013 Honda street truck just to get plenty of data to see how they do things.  The data rate is about 2 per sec on that thing.

The stranger the build, the more fun it gets.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is a sample MAP based VE adjustment map from a PC5 on the right and the data that generated the adjustments on the left.  All MAP units are in KPA.

[hrdtail78]

Most of the time I only care about things like does this thing have 15 to one compression, HUGE cams or does it have HUGE injectors that is why the bottom end is a challenge to dial in.  Most of the time I tune to where the logs lead me.  Motec, Haltech, PV, Holley, Megasquirt... it really does not matter that much.  The trick is having access to the data.  The more data, the easier it is.  Sometimes it takes a hour ride to get enough data.  I have about a 30 hour log off my 2013 Honda street truck just to get plenty of data to see how they do things.  The data rate is about 2 per sec on that thing.

The stranger the build, the more fun it gets.

Andy

That's why I was in shock that you like the PV over the TTS. BTW that data is being collect as we speak and the owner is really non the wiser.

[FLTRI]

Wow! It looks like some copy/paste going on. It appears some assumptions as to some of the extension of VEs?
I like to tune each cell @ steady state, then back it up with sweep tuning...that way I get the best of both worlds.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Wow! It looks like some copy/paste going on. It appears some assumptions as to some of the extension of VEs?
I like to tune each cell @ steady state, then back it up with sweep tuning...that way I get the best of both worlds.
Bob

Please clarify the Copy / Paste comment.  I missed something.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of people messing with their motors don't own a dyno.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Here is a sample MAP based VE adjustment map from a PC5 on the right and the data that generated the adjustments on the left.  All MAP units are in KPA.

Note the same numbers???

[whittlebeast]

Are you referring to the numbers you get in color on the scatter plots is real close to the numbers in the PC5 map?

I did add the red line on the right side of the screen shot in Paint.....  That was done for a different forum to point out what numbers were in play on a typical ride.

Andy

[FLTRI]

No, I am referring to the PC5 VE adjustment table you posted to the right of the scatter plot.
A lot of the exact same numbers.
I have never tuned an engine that changes were precisely the same in an area.
This is why I said it looked like copy/paste.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Scatter plots do a good job of showing where the motor can get on a typical ride,  I go out of my way to run the crud out of my motor when tune testing attempting to get to every area that the motor can get to.  The problem with this sort of thing is figuring out what to do in the areas that you never got to in the testing. 

I see this all the time in the Harley world.  These guys put cams in the motor with the only apparent goal is to make the motor idle bad, make lots of noise and be a dyno queen with numbers higher that the guy across the bar.  You see data off their typical ride and they never use the motor where it was designed to run. 

Yes I realize this is the audience here.  I simply don't get it.  Most of the people I tune for run the ever living snot out of their motor.  Corello rods, gun drilled titanium bolts, carbon graphite panels and brackets everywhere just to get weight out off and get the entire package.  The only goal is to be out front for the last three feet of the race.  Winning is everything to these guys.  All summer is just practice for one week in early fall somewhere.

I enjoy sharing what I have learned over the years.  Lots of people have contacted me off line thanking me for sharing.  It is interesting that they apparently have been too intimidated over the years to post anywhere, but they are reading.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Probably one of the most valuable tool in the tuner's box for tuning outside the normal "box" is the eddy brake.
It is very easy to get wherever the engine will run regardless of what speed gear, etc.

Street tuning is fine as long as the brakes and clutch are in good shape and the rider has a true understanding what is necessary to get where "no man has gone before".

I don't recommend street tuning based on my own experience...it can be very dangerous when done in traffic of any level. I would say street tuning is on the same par as texting while driving. Difference is, when a car runs into the vehicle in front of them there is a much better chance of survival than if accomplished with a motorcycle.

Bob

[whittlebeast]

Owning a Dyno is $35000 out of the scope of this thread.

Andy

[joe_lyons50023]

Bob why did you have such a big discussion about using nb o2 sensors for the diy tuner for wot recording when you are against street tuning for the diyer.  Gonna have to be dangerous to collect enough data for wot nb tuning right?

[FLTRI]

Bob why did you have such a big discussion about using nb o2 sensors for the diy tuner for wot recording when you are against street tuning for the diyer.  Gonna have to be dangerous to collect enough data for wot nb tuning right?

Owning a Dyno is $35000 out of the scope of this thread.

Andy

Joe,
Oops. Guess I wasn't very clear. Sorry.
Being mindful of what it takes to get a good street closed course tune I wasn't meaning I'm against it.
Street Closed course tuning can be very dangerous especially if your trying to read a little monitor attached to the handlebars while trying to watch where you're going...
Street Closed course tuning techniques must be developed outside normal riding habits to get a good tune.
Just the issues that must be dealt with in a careful manner or the rider is just an accident waiting to happen.

Anyone who has efi tuning experience riding in traffic while reading a small monitor and making adjustments will have a story about the challenges.

I can tell you from my personal experience, I was really glad to have had my wife on the back while I was dialing in my fuel tables...when I had drifted a bit into the oncoming lane she tapped me to look up just as a logging truck came around the corner hugging the line. OMFG!!!!

Andy,
Are you saying this thread does not apply to Dyno tuning...meaning scatter plots are useless?

[whittlebeast]

When I was messing with the Sporty, I have the digital display set to AFR, or O2 voltage front and rear so I can tell at a glance if the bike is running in closed loop.  I have never tried the fill the dots routine. When I am tuning a ski, I don't even have the digital display where I can see it.  In the race cars, I typically have the driver do a couple of warmup laps. If everything is close, I have him do a few qualifying like laps and the do a couple of cool down laps.  That sequence normally gets enough data to see where the motor needs tweaking.  We have limits set up on all critical sensors that brings on a CEL so to speak, to get the driver to check the gauges.

Racecar testing     www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBG6zzU7SQ8
autocross testing  www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2pMKXyOlE
jetski testing        www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEkC6Tlpp3A

On the street driven bikes we try to limit all higher load testing to first and second gear and normally up hill.  Highway entrance ramps work good as nobody will pull out in front of you.  This is also good for testing for fuel starvation.

The turbo stuff is the most problematic to test and most of the time is best tested on a dyno.  The real issue is most of those cars end up way too fast for the street anyway.  The 8 sec street car was one of the hardest cars I ever tuned.

My kids rotary turbo Miata is a real handful.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Andy,
Are you saying this thread does not apply to Dyno tuning...meaning scatter plots are useless?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Andy,
Are you saying this thread does not apply to Dyno tuning...meaning scatter plots are useless?
Bob

You can log a dyno run just fine.  Feel free to post one up.

[FLTRI]

I would assume the steady state capability of the Dyno & Brake combo would provide very stable data for measurement without transitions ie: AE, getting in the way?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I would assume the steady state capability of the Dyno & Brake combo would provide very stable data for measurement without transitions ie: AE, getting in the way?
Bob

AE never gets in the way.  AE is the way.  Half of the battle of tuning EFI is the AE and DE.  Transitions is everything and happens all the time on the street.



In this shot, everything above the Blue line is in the AE region.  That region all happens in less than a second when you get it correct.  When it's wrong, the customer is not happy.  It can be tested at 40 samples per sec if you know what to look for.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

As a side note, I never test any system I tune with AE turned off.  Sometimes I do turn it down a little, compared to what I think the final settings will be.   The need for AE never goes away, why would you ever want to turn it off?

I tend to shoot for about a 20% increase in PW for about .1 sec in fairly rapid increases in MAP on most motors.



Look at the bottom trace in white.  Right when I punch the motor, you can see the PW jump up and then settle into the VE table.  note that the intire trace there is only 1.6 sec as shown at the bottom.  This stuff happens fast.

Notice that in that test the AFR went lean but the RPM picked up instantly.  It is hard to test that looking at just one punch.  In the skis I tend to do thirty and then look at this stuff in scatter plot.  I create a new field named RPM/SEC and then plot that in color.  More RPM/SEC immediately after the throttle stab is the goal.  A drop in RPM right after the stab is a disaster.

In the race cars, I tend to ask the driver "How are the shifts?" before he even gets out of the belts.  If he flinches, I go straight to the logs.

Have fun tuning.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Looks like increasing AE would help that lean shot.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

The AE on that program is a little lame.  Big changes in exhaust flow in a hurry are always a little suspect.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

This plot has a wealth of basic information of how EFI really works.  This motor is jumping back and forth from about 3500 to about 7800 in about .4 of a sec.

The spikes in the PW at about 1243 sec is the acceleration enrichment coming in.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/pc5wb/MAP%20vs%20PW%20Blower%20Motor.png



Andy

[FLTRI]

This plot has a wealth of basic information of how EFI really works.  This motor is jumping back and forth from about 3500 to about 7800 in about .4 of a sec.

Would you please circle the .4 sec you are referring to. Pointing or circling what you are referring to will help a lot!
Thanks,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Simply look at the scale at the bottom of the screen.  it goes from 1234.5 sec to 1247.975 sec.   You are looking at a total of 13.5 sec in that screen shot.

You can see at the top of the screen where I jumped on it three times.  Twice I nailed it fairly quickly.  The middle time the throttle was a little more gradually rolled on.

[FLTRI]

Simply look at the scale at the bottom of the screen.  it goes from 1234.5 sec to 1247.975 sec.   You are looking at a total of 13.5 sec in that screen shot.

You can see at the top of the screen where I jumped on it three times.  Twice I nailed it fairly quickly.  The middle time the throttle was a little more gradually rolled on.

Sorry Andy but I don't see the .4 sec you are referring to. As asked numerous times in the past, circling the point on the graph you are referring to would make understanding (by me...the blind) your statements a bit clearer to me the lame.
Not sure why you refuse to do so.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

The time involved and the link is often posted several times with different points.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Sorry Andy but I don't see the .4 sec you are referring to. As asked numerous times in the past, circling the point on the graph you are referring to would make understanding (by me...the blind) your statements a bit clearer to me the lame.
Not sure why you refuse to do so.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Bob. Try a refresh.  In the purple box is the huge jump in RPM.

AE (Acceleration Enrichment) shows up in the Red box as a very fast spike in PW.

I don't have the raw data log here to measure the time.  I just thought "that's rather cool" when I saw it.

[FLTRI]

Bob. Try a refresh.  In the purple box is the huge jump in RPM.

AE (Acceleration Enrichment) shows up in the Red box as a very fast spike in PW.

I don't have the raw data log here to measure the time.  I just thought "that's rather cool" when I saw it.

This plot has a wealth of basic information of how EFI really works.  This motor is jumping back and forth from about 3500 to about 7800 in about .4 of a sec.

Ok, I think you meant to say the engine accelerates from 3500 to about 7800 in about .4 sec? (Where you circled)
Not hard to understand, especially with a jet ski..

Not sure about the "back and forth" statement and it confused me.

AE is usually only for a fraction of a second so it will always look like a blip from my experience.

[whittlebeast]

Has anyone ever looked into how the Torque Limiting on the DBW bikes works?

Andy

[FLTRI]

Has anyone ever looked into how the Torque Limiting on the DBW bikes works?

Andy

Yes. Steve Cole. Been working with it since it first came into being as he was still working with HD when the TBW first showed up.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Did you personally verify how it worked?  DWL response logic, timing changes per gear...

Andy

[FLTRI]

Did you personally verify how it worked?  DWL response logic, timing changes per gear...

Andy

Do you mean did I question SC's explanation on how it works? No.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

So you don't verify things?  Really?

Andy

[FLTRI]

So you don't verify things?  Really?

Andy

Anytime I feel it necessary I certainly attempt to verify whatever it is.
When a mfg tells me something about his product I DO take it a face value until I have reason to doubt the info.

Bob

[whittlebeast]

Here is on of the skis I am tuning right now doing a little acceleration enrichment testing.  My personal ski is almost that strong till about 50 where the race ski wis big blower gets the best of me.  That boat is entirely tuned with scatter plots and without a dyno.



Have fun tuning

Andy

[FLTRI]

Andy,
Not sure what point you were trying to make by posting a jet ski single acceleration straight line acceleration?
Are you insinuating a Dyno and tuning software cannot be used to tune AE as well as scatter plots?

Suppose if I were serious about tuning these water pumps this is what I would opt for:
http://www.land-and-sea.com/pwc-dyno/pwc-dyno.htm

But that's just me. I believe in controlled, measured testing.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Those dynos have no way to simulate blowing out the prop (essentially boiling the water leading into the pump) and pump stuffing that happens at high speed.  These guys also fight racing is someone elses prop wash. 

Both he and his wife are nationally competitive racer so they test alternating being in the lead.  None of this is possible to simulate on a dyno.

Andy

[FLTRI]

Have you spoke to anyone who owns one of these Land-n-sea jet ski dynos?

I have and there are able to simulate virtually any condition, including cavitation (free wind).

Andy, I realize you do not own a Dyno but understand dynos are far more accurate and useful for dialing in EFI than anything else due to the ability to tightly rein in any and all anomalies.

That said this may not be the ultimate testing for carbed skis due to the g forces applied to the float bowl
This is not a concern with EFI.

JMHO,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I have found more issues with fuel starvation in the EFI world than I ever say with the run any position stuff we ran 10 years ago on the skis.  When you starve the fuel pickup on an EFI system, the fuel pressure instantly plummets and all hell breaks loose. I see it all the time on the high HP stuff.

Andy

[HOGMIKE]

I have found more issues with fuel starvation in the EFI world than I ever say with the run any position stuff we ran 10 years ago on the skis.  When you starve the fuel pickup on an EFI system, the fuel pressure instantly plummets and all hell breaks loose. I see it all the time on the high HP stuff.

Andy

Would that be a FLHSKI ?
 

[FLTRI]

I have found more issues with fuel starvation in the EFI world than I ever say with the run any position stuff we ran 10 years ago on the skis.  When you starve the fuel pickup on an EFI system, the fuel pressure instantly plummets and all hell breaks loose. I see it all the time on the high HP stuff.

Andy

So what you are saying is you have a fuel tank pickup up issue NOT an EFI tuning issue.

Come on Andy this thread was for scatter plots and how too read them and what all those dots mean.
There was a couple members state they Re interested in learning all a out scatter plots so this thread was started for you to school us on these plots.

So far we have seen some a couple scatter plots, some multi-line graphs, and heard all about your jet ski issues.

Stay on point please!
Bob

[whittlebeast]

I do find those issues with scatter plots...  When the PW and DC fall right in line as expected but I get a random but repeatable lean spot, I start looking for mechanical issues that can generate the symptom.

I am waiting for 2014 Harley data for this thread.

Andy

[FLTRI]

I do find those issues with scatter plots...  When the PW and DC fall right in line as expected but I get a random but repeatable lean spot, I start looking for mechanical issues that can generate the symptom.

I am waiting for 2014 Harley data for this thread.

Andy

Sounds like you need to work in fuel pickup before worrying about the tuneup?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

We tend to see that on the racecars.  It is really bad on the wife's Sporty.

Andy

[FLTRI]

...It is really bad on the wife's Sporty.

Andy

If that's the case you just want to take a peek inside the tank. Get back to basics...there is no trick here.
As the bike accelerates it sloshes fuel back right into the petcock so there should NEVER be a starvation issue...unless there is something wrong inside the tank.
Sometimes we let ourselves get caught up in the minutia of technical do dads when if we just think about it for a minute the resolve come clear.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

In that case, it is the wife's bike.  Or simply fill the tank as soon as the light comes on....  In the race motors, the solution can get a little more involved.  In my kids car there is a 2 quart tank in the engine compartment that is always full to the brim.  We have a circulation dump in the tank and a pressure pump up front.

Starvation solved.

Andy

[FLTRI]

In that case, it is the wife's bike.  Or simply fill the tank as soon as the light comes on....  In the race motors, the solution can get a little more involved.  In my kids car there is a 2 quart tank in the engine compartment that is always full to the brim.  We have a circulation dump in the tank and a pressure pump up front.

Starvation solved.

Andy

So the sporty's fine until it get very low on fuel.
Acceleration should not be a problem until empty.
The wife's bike a race bike?
Remember this a thread about learning scatter graphs as applied tuning Harley's....please
Bob

[whittlebeast]

It starts to fuel starve on a first gear throttle stab when there is about 2.5 gal left in the tank.  It is just a lowly near stock 1200 Sporty with snappy throttle response.  I did find it the issue with scatter plots.  All you do is filter out all of the data from every gear except 1st and then look for the series of lean (red) dots on all of the typical dark blue dots.  Keep in mind that the o2s should be solid in blue in high voltage in any of this sort of thing.

Andy

[FLTRI]

A gross lean spot caused by fuel starvation should be obvious in any O2 data log.
Even Ray Charles would be able to see that on a standard line graph.
Unless you have some jumbo fuel tank on that sporty 2 1/2 gallons in the tank should be about 2/3rd full without a chance if fuel starvation except if the bike was somehow ridden upside down.

I would be looking in the fuel tank for whatever is responsible for this rare condition.
Bobi

[whittlebeast]

My stock tank is 4.5 gal.  It will starve any time you punch it in first gear if the fuel light is on. 

Andy

[FLTRI]

My stock tank is 4.5 gal.  It will starve any time you punch it in first gear if the fuel light is on. 

Andy

Maybe on those tanks they put the fuel pick up at the front.
That would be a huge mistake IMO due to being prone to accel enleanment (starvation).
I know they put the fuel level indicator a the front and it will show lower level going uphill vs downhill where it will show higher level...
You definitely have an issue we have not run across....and we have a bunch of wheelie artists that ride around on the sporty's and dyna's with the front wheel pointing to the sky for minutes at a time (like across the bay bridge) without any starvation issues.
Bob