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CVO Technical => Intake/Exhaust/ECM => Topic started by: Eqcons on June 11, 2007, 11:12:57 AM
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Hi all.
A simple (and as usual, probably stoopid!) question. I'm about to set off on a 5000 mile tour. I have the Thundermax and autotune, which seems fine, and I have my head round it all now. My "normal" mufflers are Screamin Eagle Performance 65115-98B, but while I LURVE their sound, they are too noisy for 10 days of 500 miles, so I've bought a pair of 65259-00 "Touring Mufflers" (I think these were stock on SE bikes a couple of years back???)
Question is - hopefully the TMax will Autotune on the fly for these, and can cope with the fact that I still have loads of air going in, but a more restrictive exhaust, (i.e. I don't have to change anything on my map!) then when I get home and swap back to my Performance pipes, it'll autotune back again?
Cheers,
Jim
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Eqcons,
It should be able to learn with in "20 percent" and it should adjust for you based on the change in the muffler provided your within a "20 percent range" which I think you should be. I built a map based on a 2 into 1 vs. true dual pipe and it seemed to learn that ok as well. I would try and go out for a dinner ride and try and put 40 or 50 miles on it to be sure before you left it should have a good grasp on the learning by that time. The other thing you may want to consider is based on your map is possibly pulling up the fuel curve in the low throttle range to a higher range of fuel ie .. if your at 13.0 you may want to consider 13.7 etc as the target to get a bit more economy. My problem was that when I took my trip I was at 13.0 to 1 and only got 25-29 miles per gallon when we were running highway speeds of 70 - 80. When we backed the speeds down to 25-55 it came up to about 35/36 mpg. Or if you dont feel comfortable with changing the map you may consider an override to say 14 to 1 across the board to no kill your economy and still have some performance.
Have a great trip and be safe,
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Eqcons,
It should be able to learn with in "20 percent" and it should adjust for you based on the change in the muffler provided your within a "20 percent range" which I think you should be. I built a map based on a 2 into 1 vs. true dual pipe and it seemed to learn that ok as well. I would try and go out for a dinner ride and try and put 40 or 50 miles on it to be sure before you left it should have a good grasp on the learning by that time. The other thing you may want to consider is based on your map is possibly pulling up the fuel curve in the low throttle range to a higher range of fuel ie .. if your at 13.0 you may want to consider 13.7 etc as the target to get a bit more economy. My problem was that when I took my trip I was at 13.0 to 1 and only got 25-29 miles per gallon when we were running highway speeds of 70 - 80. When we backed the speeds down to 25-55 it came up to about 35/36 mpg. Or if you dont feel comfortable with changing the map you may consider an override to say 14 to 1 across the board to no kill your economy and still have some performance.
Have a great trip and be safe,
Thanks UnB. I thought about leaning out the mixture between say 2500rpm and 3500rpm by a little, but as I'm heading into very hot weather, I wondered if I should do that, or leave as is to help cooling? What do you think?
Jim
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Eqcons,
It should be able to learn with in "20 percent" and it should adjust for you based on the change in the muffler provided your within a "20 percent range" which I think you should be. I built a map based on a 2 into 1 vs. true dual pipe and it seemed to learn that ok as well. I would try and go out for a dinner ride and try and put 40 or 50 miles on it to be sure before you left it should have a good grasp on the learning by that time. The other thing you may want to consider is based on your map is possibly pulling up the fuel curve in the low throttle range to a higher range of fuel ie .. if your at 13.0 you may want to consider 13.7 etc as the target to get a bit more economy. My problem was that when I took my trip I was at 13.0 to 1 and only got 25-29 miles per gallon when we were running highway speeds of 70 - 80. When we backed the speeds down to 25-55 it came up to about 35/36 mpg. Or if you dont feel comfortable with changing the map you may consider an override to say 14 to 1 across the board to no kill your economy and still have some performance.
Have a great trip and be safe,
Harry, I had intended to lean out the 13:1 mixture for a bit of economy's sake on longer trips; until the weather warmed up.
Counting my own there are three bikes I'm familiar here close to me with the TM and AT. All started suffering detonation when we passed from winter and early springs to days around 80 or above. Accelerating within the highway cruising RPM range or pulling from there.
Warmer days have, of course, made it even worse. I've already retarded the timing to compensate for it. But as the days have gotten warmer yet the problem recurs. After having mentioned it in passing once here several others have PMd saying they'd had or were having similar issues.
It's quite frankly a bit annoying that the maps are tuned so aggressively (for the sake of numbers?) that they can't be ridden in the summer time. Or perhaps they tune in a dyno room that is just too well air conditioned for use then in real world application. Whatever the reason it's an annoyance.
I've already taken enough out of mine that I can feel it in the seat-of-the-pants-dyno rather appreciably. Unless they have some different base mapping to work things differently I'm still going to have to take more out of it too.
I don't fault the hardware at all here. In fact the hardware is great as it allows us to do things and compensate for issues ourselves that could not otherwise be done. The base map provided to be used by the hardware, however, is for me (and others) a pinging SOB in even moderately warm weather though.
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Eqcons,
I would say from 2000 - 3500 from 14.9% throttle which is about 10 blocks over left to right to say about half way across is all you have to do unless you use the override. then you make a gradual ramp decline to where it is like feathering it in so its not such a harsh drop. This is for your low throttle areas you will be really surprised how much you actually ride in 5 to 20 from your starting position. You still want the fuel up high and at idle, but in the riding ranges of low throttle you will want the economy.
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Eqcons,
I would say from 2000 - 3500 from 14.9% throttle which is about 10 blocks over left to right to say about half way across is all you have to do unless you use the override. then you make a gradual ramp decline to where it is like feathering it in so its not such a harsh drop. This is for your low throttle areas you will be really surprised how much you actually ride in 5 to 20 from your starting position. You still want the fuel up high and at idle, but in the riding ranges of low throttle you will want the economy.
I see 2L has raised the question of leaning it out when the weather is hot, just as I was wondering..... Hmmmmm.... now I dunno what to do!
Jim
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Eqcons,
I actually had some of that detonation as well even at 13 to 1 on my trip which concerned me a lot. I think the timing is aggressive, and will most like satisfy myself when replaying with it to again lean it out for partial throttle and then take some of the timing out of the motor in the spots where i see the concerns.
The 2 places I really noticed it was 2nd and 3rd gear going from small amout of throttle to twisting it pretty good I would get some tapping / detonation and when I was in a high gear cruising and going to pass a car when at say 2500 rpm nailing it to go around.
In either case I would rather have the gas mileage and give up a little in the numbers than have it too rich so to speak and actually still have some detonation just not be able to hear it or see it happening.
For me this is still my touring bike so I am more willing to go give up a little to maintain its rideability.
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For me this is still my touring bike so I am more willing to go give up a little to maintain its rideability.
Same here, UnB.
Jim
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Same here, UnB.
Jim
Rideability with the reliability is the goal Jim. The question is how much detuning has to be done to gain that. It's not as if original parts ordered were made "a combination of parts and tuning that's reliable and safe, in the winter."
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Rideability with the reliability is the goal Jim. The question is how much detuning has to be done to gain that. It's not as if original parts ordered were made "a combination of parts and tuning that's reliable and safe, in the winter."
Yes, I agree, 2L. I'm going to leave as is for the moment I think. I'll have 5000 miles in 2 weeks to let me form a better picture.
Jim
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Eqcons,
It should be able to learn with in "20 percent" and it should adjust for you based on the change in the muffler provided your within a "20 percent range" which I think you should be. I built a map based on a 2 into 1 vs. true dual pipe and it seemed to learn that ok as well. I would try and go out for a dinner ride and try and put 40 or 50 miles on it to be sure before you left it should have a good grasp on the learning by that time. The other thing you may want to consider is based on your map is possibly pulling up the fuel curve in the low throttle range to a higher range of fuel ie .. if your at 13.0 you may want to consider 13.7 etc as the target to get a bit more economy. My problem was that when I took my trip I was at 13.0 to 1 and only got 25-29 miles per gallon when we were running highway speeds of 70 - 80. When we backed the speeds down to 25-55 it came up to about 35/36 mpg. Or if you dont feel comfortable with changing the map you may consider an override to say 14 to 1 across the board to no kill your economy and still have some performance.
Have a great trip and be safe,
I think it is 20% each time you start your bike??? Which that value can be adjusted if I am not mistaken. Can be adjusted for a faster learning curve???
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It's a trip reading how you guys are all the time adjusting values, fuel cells, etc. Constantly changing from 13.1 to 14.9 and never leaving it alone.
Where is that happy medium?
My Frontier is 140.9H/P, 141.1T and averages 38 to 40 miles to the gallon.
I have changed oil twice in the past 6 months and the motor now has 5K miles on it.
Other than checking the plugs (checking, not changing) the motor hasn't been touched.
It runs good enough to outrun a 124" SEEG (rated at 147H/P, I was told, not that I believed that).
Lets see, spend more time tuning and trying to get 1 more pony and reach nirvana with my fuel curve or,
GO RIDING
hmmmmmmmm
No contest there!
Go riding wins!
No offense to all of you that want, need or expect perfection from your motors but my goal is satisfaction not perfection.
Simply put, if it runs the way I expect it to, then it may not be perfect but I'm satisfied.
And sometimes, it is all about me! And I have Nancy's permission to say that!
S
/
B
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It's a trip reading how you guys are all the time adjusting values, fuel cells, etc. Constantly changing from 13.1 to 14.9 and never leaving it alone.
Where is that happy medium?
My Frontier is 140.9H/P, 141.1T and averages 38 to 40 miles to the gallon.
I have changed oil twice in the past 6 months and the motor now has 5K miles on it.
Other than checking the plugs (checking, not changing) the motor hasn't been touched.
It runs good enough to outrun a 124" SEEG (rated at 147H/P, I was told, not that I believed that).
Lets see, spend more time tuning and trying to get 1 more pony and reach nirvana with my fuel curve or,
GO RIDING
hmmmmmmmm
No contest there!
Go riding wins!
No offense to all of you that want, need or expect perfection from your motors but my goal is satisfaction not perfection.
Simply put, if it runs the way I expect it to, then it may not be perfect but I'm satisfied.
And sometimes, it is all about me! And I have Nancy's permission to say that!
S
/
B
My 110 gets 39-41 MPG at 141.9 HP, and 142.1 T. And, it's bone stock. ;)
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My 110 gets 39-41 MPG at 141.9 HP, and 142.1 T. And, it's bone stock. ;)
OK H/B
Fess up
NOW
Was that before or after you and JD spent the night at the Holiday Inn?
Inquiring minds really want to know!
:o
Edited to add
After review of your #'s on that stock motor it appears that we are evenly matched.
I guess this contest will ultimately be decided on which one of us is better looking!
Scary HUH?
:2vrolijk_21:
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OK H/B
Fess up
NOW
Was that before or after you and JD spent the night at the Holiday Inn?
Inquiring minds really want to know!
:o
Edited to add
After review of your #'s on that stock motor it appears that we are evenly matched.
I guess this contest will ultimately be decided on which one of us is better looking!
Scary HUH?
:2vrolijk_21:
Before and after the Holiday Inn stay.
Better looking? *hair toss* I'd win that one, as long as your mom isn't the judge. LOL
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My 110 gets 39-41 MPG at 141.9 HP, and 142.1 T. And, it's bone stock. ;)
And then you woke up! ;D Hoist! 8)
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No contest there!
Go riding wins!
Riding definitely wins Chip. And I would if the damn thing just stopped pinging :huepfenlol2: !
Fortunately that's the only thing I'm chasing. And the system makes that particular chase pretty easy. Five minutes longer than it takes to get the saddlebag and side cover on and off and you're done. Then it's ride it some more :2vrolijk_21: .
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Harry, I had intended to lean out the 13:1 mixture for a bit of economy's sake on longer trips; until the weather warmed up.
Counting my own there are three bikes I'm familiar here close to me with the TM and AT. All started suffering detonation when we passed from winter and early springs to days around 80 or above. Accelerating within the highway cruising RPM range or pulling from there.
Warmer days have, of course, made it even worse. I've already retarded the timing to compensate for it. But as the days have gotten warmer yet the problem recurs. After having mentioned it in passing once here several others have PMd saying they'd had or were having similar issues.
It's quite frankly a bit annoying that the maps are tuned so aggressively (for the sake of numbers?) that they can't be ridden in the summer time. Or perhaps they tune in a dyno room that is just too well air conditioned for use then in real world application. Whatever the reason it's an annoyance.
I've already taken enough out of mine that I can feel it in the seat-of-the-pants-dyno rather appreciably. Unless they have some different base mapping to work things differently I'm still going to have to take more out of it too.
I don't fault the hardware at all here. In fact the hardware is great as it allows us to do things and compensate for issues ourselves that could not otherwise be done. The base map provided to be used by the hardware, however, is for me (and others) a pinging SOB in even moderately warm weather though.
I noticed the same. I have a HD Stage I 103" on the '07 Ultra and Zippers doesn't have a map specific to it. I tried running various maps as recommended by Zippers, none were close enough to get the timing NEAR what I needed it to be. We tried adjusting the Timing table, backed it down so far I was at the end, and had lost a significant amount of power because of it. Tried running to FL and back on that, pinging wasn't bad around here, figured I'd try, AFR was about 13.0:1 and ramped down to 12.5:1, by the time I got to FL my mufflers were BLUE, seriously BLUE. Headed back to MD and when I got home, the Chrome was peeling and cracked all over the place where they were blue, had to toss em out. I got about 30-32MPG on the trip. Switched back to the stock ECM and now I'm getting 40-43MPG, the bike seems to run better, pingin is gone, and the TMAT is on the shelf.
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I noticed the same. I have a HD Stage I 103" on the '07 Ultra and Zippers doesn't have a map specific to it. I tried running various maps as recommended by Zippers, none were close enough to get the timing NEAR what I needed it to be. We tried adjusting the Timing table, backed it down so far I was at the end, and had lost a significant amount of power because of it. Tried running to FL and back on that, pinging wasn't bad around here, figured I'd try, AFR was about 13.0:1 and ramped down to 12.5:1, by the time I got to FL my mufflers were BLUE, seriously BLUE. Headed back to MD and when I got home, the Chrome was peeling and cracked all over the place where they were blue, had to toss em out. I got about 30-32MPG on the trip. Switched back to the stock ECM and now I'm getting 40-43MPG, the bike seems to run better, pingin is gone, and the TMAT is on the shelf.
Mine isn't that bad (yet) Fr8. But I have retarded timing enough (3 degrees across the crusing RPM range and stepped up at each end from there) that I do notice the differerence. Pinging is now gone on days up about 90 degrees or so depending on humidity. Above 90 it's still there. 95 it's there even climbing a moderate grade with the cruise control on at highway speed. It won't be rideable in its current trim in high summer. The trip to Nelson next month is a real concern.
This system was great in the winter time (fat lot of good that does is in the real world). And I do love the control we have over things. The maps Zippers has deployed (at least in my case and a couple of known others) are very problematic though. TMax doesn't use detonation sensing so the system can't compensate based on ambients. You have to make it ready for the world it's in. Making it ready for that world in summer time is proving to be a real chore.
I'm strongly considering reinstalling the stock ECM and getting it tuned before the Nelson trip. I called Zippers about this. Described the circumstances. Was told to wait for a response. That was a week and a half ago. The problem does seem to illustrate why 13:1 is their base though. And yet it still suffers detonation. That's a fair bit of fuel to be dumped in a hole to still ping like this (unless you're feathering the throttle and driving it very carefully).
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Come on Guys, I was already to go TMAT, now I'm not sure again!!! Keep us posted on you out come!
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Mine isn't that bad (yet) Fr8. But I have retarded timing enough (3 degrees across the crusing RPM range and stepped up at each end from there) that I do notice the differerence. Pinging is now gone on days up about 90 degrees or so depending on humidity. Above 90 it's still there. 95 it's there even climbing a moderate grade with the cruise control on at highway speed. It won't be rideable in its current trim in high summer. The trip to Nelson next month is a real concern.
This system was great in the winter time (fat lot of good that does is in the real world). And I do love the control we have over things. The maps Zippers has deployed (at least in my case and a couple of known others) are very problematic though. TMax doesn't use detonation sensing so the system can't compensate based on ambients. You have to make it ready for the world it's in. Making it ready for that world in summer time is proving to be a real chore.
I'm strongly considering reinstalling the stock ECM and getting it tuned before the Nelson trip. I called Zippers about this. Described the circumstances. Was told to wait for a response. That was a week and a half ago. The problem does seem to illustrate why 13:1 is their base though. And yet it still suffers detonation. That's a fair bit of fuel to be dumped in a hole to still ping like this (unless you're feathering the throttle and driving it very carefully).
Don, I'd be REAL concerned headed to Nelson where you are likely to encounter temps all over the board. At least you've got John nearby, so you could run up there and get a good tune with the PCIII and stock ECM, unless you'd rather use your SERT. You're just at 10.5:1 compression, right?
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Come on Guys, I was already to go TMAT, now I'm not sure again!!! Keep us posted on you out come!
Talon, I was a supporter of the sytem. Even though I'd had other issues with Zippers the Thundermax system was something I liked; in cool weather. In fact I'm a little distressed because I know some of our friends here also acquired the system after I'd been so pleased with it.
I'm still a fan of the technology. Zippers' implementation of it, however, certainly seems to be causing me and others a problem right now. The only thing I can say at this point is wait, please wait, until we see how Zippers responds to these concerns and if those concerns are effective in correcting what is a significant issue.
I just left a post for Kitzmiller in the Zippers Tech Support section of the site. I would not expect him to surf the entire site and just accidentally have found this thread. When he logs on again, however, that post in "his" section will direct him here. I'll choose to be optimistic that they will have an effective and fair solution until proven otherwise. Once we know they've got it right and supported us well then I'd have no qualm with recommending the hardware package again. But we've got to know first we'll be able to ride in the summer time.....
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Saw your post, lets see what happens, I'll be waiting, there's always SERT/Dyno!!!
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It seems that everyone is confused as to how the TMAT autotunes the bike. My impressions are that EVERY BIKE NEEDS TO BE PROPERLY TUNED, regardless of the type of tuning system you use. The TMAT will Autotune to the conditions dictated by the map it's given to Autotune to. Therefore, the correctly tuned map would be required to have the system work properly. I don't see this system eliminating Dyno Tuning, just enhancing it. If you make changes to the bike, you need to have it retuned and generate a new custom map. Just like a PC, if close enough is good enough for you, drop in a canned map. For proper tuning, have it tuned to you engine. The TMAT doesn't magically tune your bike. It works in conjunction with the base map you start with. It makes sense to me that this base map be as accurate as possible and be set for your engine specifically. Autotuning just keeps it there regardless of changing conditions, but not changing engine components. Maybe a thorough, accurate description of what this system does and doesn't do, from Zippers, is in order here. JMO.
Hoist! 8)
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It seems that everyone is confused as to how the TMAT autotunes the bike. My impressions are that EVERY BIKE NEEDS TO BE PROPERLY TUNED, regardless of the type of tuning system you use. The TMAT will Autotune to the conditions dictated by the map it's given to Autotune to. Therefore, the correctly tuned map would be required to have the system work properly. I don't see this system eliminating Dyno Tuning, just enhancing it. If you make changes to the bike, you need to have it retuned and generate a new custom map.
To a point, yes. Howie, the significant downside to the TMax is that (relatively speaking) no one can tune it. That's why, all technical capabilities notwithstanding, I had absolutely no interest until the autotuning addition became available.
With that addition, however, the system is pitched from the vendor as being supplied with a base map that is "good" and definitely close enough for the system to do it's thing. Subtle variations (like changing mufflers or air cleaners) are also supposed to be within the system's ability to readily compensate. Dramatic changes require a different base map from which it would then begin its tuning compensation.
In my case, for example, it's Zippers supplied hardware complete (head work, cylinder work, pistons, cams, air cleaner, throttle body and intake). My bike has true dual head pipes and White Brothers E Series slip ons. The map they supplied and which Kitzmiller said would "perfectly good to start with" was done on a bike reported to have exactly the same hardware package and a different set of dual exhaust. With all that similarity and the TMax system's ability to tune on the fly these problems should not be problems.
One of the proposed benefits of the system is, in fact, the money savings from avoiding dyno tunes for the smaller more common changes that are done more regularly (like mufflers, air cleaner, etc), and also being able to avoid those same dyno fees when larger work is done simply by pulling a different base map from the Zipper's library and then letting the system do its work on the bike from there. At least that's how it's supposed to work.
In my case, however, even with the base map tuned on bike ostensibly nearly identical to my own the bike was fine in the temps we rode in in Kentucky. 10 degrees warmer, however, and it's worrisome. 20 degrees warmer and it's bad. Come 100 degrees days or more, or high heat and lower humidity, and I could see it quickly becoming unrideable in its current trim.
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Persactly what I was in the process of writing, Don....nobody to tune the TMax, no matter the variation. You said it better, so I flamed my post.
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Hello All,
I was advised that someone needed some anti-pinging help here with the TMAX, so here goes:
The TMAX is a great device, but like all tuning devices, you need to know how to get where you need to be. In the manual, it states that you can make changes on the maps, but make sure to save them, so you can go back to where it worked well. There is a step that needs to be clarified. In the examples posted here, if you want to make a change, do the following in order, to fix the problems created by LF's. This may be written somewhere, but I don't think so, in English anyway..
Oh yes, do this on a cold bike, best that way.
1. The assumption is that this is a build that has a good Zippers map created.
2. That Zippers created the perfect map for the build if it was an engine by Zippers, or, its a map for parts and pieces or exhaust that match a map that Zippers has.
1.Therefore, if you have made arbitrary map changes along the way ,(and this applies to the Thundermax and any engines and changes) go back and download the original map that was supplied.
2. Assuming you are clear, and know how to do this, the download will warn, This map will overwrite, do you want to continue? Yes.
3. Go to the basic settings, and make sure your speedo and limiter and idle is set where you want it, and save this map at this point, under something other than the stock one. We will be making additional changes.
4. Initialize the map by doing the on and off 3 times, and then unlink from the computer. Leave bike on on the 3rd initialize sequence.
5. OK, now link it back up, and read the module. Make sure it read showing the original map, and the map you created (this is a double check, but do it. You want to make sure that it 'took'
6. This is important. The Offsets that were learned, I have found, can really confuse everything, so what I will absolutely do, on any change, is make sure of the following:
a. Select Clear Learned Offsets, and do it.
b. Select Idle Learned Offsets and do it too.
For some reason, becasue it is a computer, I do not want any remnants in the computer that can in any way try and make auto corrections to any points that I previously changed. For example, if the setting I used told the computer to retard timing, and loaded it, everything that I was doing would continually try and make those corrections, and 'learn' what to do when confronted with that change. If I change something else, like fuel AFR, without clearing it out, in my mind, it is possible that the old setting will have the learning curve, and now, with the change, it will try and correct the corrections. I hope I explained this properly, or hope you get the drift anyway. I want to make sure that all of that is gone, period.
Now, you have the original map, and a totally cleared learned offset and idle learn totally cleared out., So naturally, you are going to re-do the IAC.
Now, you start the bike, then activate the link, then activate the auto IAC and wait and monitor until the temp is up to 289. Not 295, or 275, but 289 +- 1 or 2.
Then hit IAC auto to disengage it, and then unlink, then stop bike.
Now you have a fresh, undistorted map. Is this overkill? I am not sure. I know a couple of tricks and things about the TMAX and this workes flawlessly for me. Now, I also discovered that if you are only just changing exhaust, this is not neccessary at all, but I do it anyway. Other changes, regarding AFR and Timing, absolutely I do the above. It is no big deal, and always pleasantly surprises me with the result.
So, you go and ride the bike. The auto tune will learn in the stock setting for learning, very quickly. Just a hop around the neighborhood will be a great tell tale. See if it is pinging. If so, make SMALL changes, in the range for example, if you have a little pinging around 2500 to 3000, lower the timing line 1 degree in that range.. See, for this FIRST CHANGE, the learning has already commenced, and you do NOT need to clear anything out. BUT if you want to make additional changes forward, best to CLEAR OFFSETS. Normally, just the cruise offsets, NOT the re do on the Idle offsets. OK, you make andother change? Yup, clear em out. Now, you are saving each time the map, under a new name, after you make each change.
But the key is make sure you clear out the offsets that the computer learned, so each change starts with a new slate. Any Questions?
Rhino(opinionsarenumerousbutmostofthetimetheyworkwhenisayso)
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Yes, my post abouve was to make sure you clear out the offsets so the computer doesnt get confused. Uh Huh.
Rhino
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And finally, make sure you also check under Closed Loop Module, to make sure the Map and the MODULE says you are in closed loop if you are running the o2 sensors, which I hope you are. To easy with them, and to tough without, makes it a sert kinda device requiring a dyno if you are runnin naked......
Rhino
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OK, one more, with personal experience.
I have been riding in 90+ temps, and at one point, early on in the 75+F temps, I noticed some pinging. That is what led me to experiment, and finally, discover the issue with the corrections I had saved, without clearing the offsets. After I did that, all was well. As a matter of fact, the day before yesterday, I did the whole procedure again. Why? Becasue since I had set it the the last time, I had taken off the rockers boxes, changed gaskets, re set pushrods and a few miskalaneous things. I failed to reset, and the bike was pinging just a bit at that pesky 2600 rpm during accel.
So the other night, I re-did it, and now I am once a gain a happy camper. It is in the manual, just nearly not enough emphasis on clearing out the old learning curves. From now on, it becomes SOP when making a change, whether it be for a:
a. Change In AFR on map
b. Change in Timing
c. Change in Component
I think that is when the TMAT shines, and once it sets up for the current scenario it is a real powerhouse, doing exactly what it is supposed to do with the tools it has to work with, the temps, and the density altitudes. The only thing we cannot control is the fuel quality.
So here is actualy one hypothesis that I have not yet tried. But it does kind of make sense. Get a crap load of fuel anywhere? Well, that is a hard one to plan on. So, what if one was to run the tank down, and then get a gallon of mid grade. like 89 octane? Then do all of the above in my previous post, and now, if you get good fuel it runs well, and also compensates for that occasional crap load that I am seeing more and more, especially hearing more ethanol stories coming out of the midwest. So what about this? I think until it is tried, no one can rebuke my thinking, because I said so.
Rhino(alwaysthinkingabouthewrongsubjectswhenishouldbeworking)
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I too have had a problem with the detonation in the 2500 range under light throttle and then needing to accellerate.
I took all the new updates to the software and ECM and also went to the new map for the 103.
BTW....my plugs were always black and sooty. Never the light tan they were supposed to be.
Anyway, the changes I've made have eliminated the ping, maintained gas mileage and the bike feels quite a bit smoother.
Bike only has Fat Cats with the standard baffle and a BigSuckerII aircleaner.
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Now, you start the bike, then activate the link, then activate the auto IAC and wait and monitor until the temp is up to 289. Not 295, or 275, but 289 +- 1 or 2.
Rhino, I have worked from a clean map to make changes. The IAC suggestions you offer here may even be at variance with Zippers itself is suggesting anymore. Reported in another thread here recently is that the latest version of the Zippers manual (in PDF form on their website) isn't even doing the full IAC link and train as part of the basic setup anymore. The recommendation now is to have loaded the latest firmware update, clear your old IAC training, then (without engaging the IAC training mode) start the bike and let it run to 289. Then shut off, etc.
I wish I could get rid of the ping on the red bike. I have worked with it as you suggested. I readily agree that the problem isn't hardware but implementation of that hardware via the Zipper's provided map. The map I'm currently use in fact has only the alteration in it for retarded timing. Just trying to see how retarded it would have to go to get rid of detonation.
So far, no soap. That some might be worse than others is of course to be expected. That some would therefore be solved with less effort than others is then also to be expected. Mine, so far, has not fully resolved from the more obvious and direct changes one would make to compensate for the problem that is hoping to be compensated for. From what Fr8trn, and others, have written, I'm not alone.
That mine (and others) has not resolved with those obvious changes is why support from Zippers has been requested. If anyone is going to over guidance as to how to better implement their hardware to actually make the bikes rideable in summer weather (one would hope) it would be them. Alternatively, if they can offer an effective solution that addresses and corrects the problem without gutting performance it would also be them that would offer other alternative solutions.
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Hey Twolane,
I am familiar with the IAC. The last part, the part where it asked for you to 'align' the mark after is gone. If they also eliminated the temp to 289 range on the IAC autotune, it is news to me. It is something that I always do, but it can be optional, so the regulars don't mess things up. I can't then understand why someone indicated it to run to 289 WITHOUT engaging IAC. Duh, what does that do.
As it goes back to what I was saying, the clearing of all offsets is a major issue. A lot of people make assumptions about the manual. It could have been written a bit easier for interpretation. I can only tell what I have actually done, and expereinced and experimented with. I do not go with what is supposed to work, just what does work.
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Hey Twolane,
I am familiar with the IAC. The last part, the part where it asked for you to 'align' the mark after is gone. If they also eliminated the temp to 289 range on the IAC autotune, it is news to me.
Sorry Rhino, if that's the way it came across it wasn't what I intended. Still running it up to temp. Just not chasing the line. Exactly as you describe here.
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I understand. My experience helping a lot of folok with this unit is that I always find they do not exactly interpret or read the tiny hidden detail in the manual. But I have no problems helping out, becasue I sincerely think this is one super product.
Now, another finally, one that I briefl;y addressed regarding the fuel. On occassion, I get a ping, but I know it is a bad batch of fuel. Simple enough. The Autotune has already been comfortable on a good tank, then you introduce some crap, and it has a hard time, certainly not enought otry and re-lean the firing points that lower octane presents to it.
Everyone does know I hope, that the only way you can run these bikes is with premium fuel. The 93 octane is nice, but down here, it is very rare. The best I can find says 91, and that's where occassionally I have a problem, becasue it's not true premium, it probably has some additives to make it seem so.
Finaly, ADDITIVES. Octane boosters, injector cleaners and the like. DO NOT EVEN THINK about it. It is not neccessary, and it will mask the O2 SEnsor, and ultimately coat it and ruin it.
Have a Z day,
Rhino
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Wow Rhino (hoist jr.) are you trying to boost your post count or what lately... Hey mods cant you put all that into 1 .... hehe
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What's needed here!!!!
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Wow Rhino (hoist jr.) are you trying to boost your post count or what lately... Hey mods cant you put all that into 1 .... hehe
Only if he adds w.....ty discussions too! ;D Hoist! 8)
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I am not going for any records, but I am the self appointed Tmax guy.
And I am good at it.
Rhino
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Don
Good luck with your tuning!
I would help but the BFH would be a little overkill.
Hoist
I have a great SERT man down here. But I think you know of a good one up there.
Since I'm a little bored and it's raining maybe I will go to the garage and hook up the Commadore 64 to the 50cc scooters so I can adjust the cell values and the fuel curve.
Rhino
I applaud your efforts to help these guys. I would throw in some technical advice on this subject but since I don't know any I will stick to riding. Not sure what your post meant but if anyone can comprehend it, TwoLane will be the man. I look forward to meeting and riding with you some day. Just remember I have that old school SERT and may not be operating at maximum efficiency!
Sure wish the rain would stop here.
I'm bored!
I'm ready to ride!
S
/
B
:2vrolijk_21:
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Don
Good luck with your tuning!
I would help but the BFH would be a little overkill.
Hoist
I have a great SERT man down here. But I think you know of a good one up there.
Since I'm a little bored and it's raining maybe I will go to the garage and hook up the Commadore 64 to the 50cc scooters so I can adjust the cell values and the fuel curve.
Rhino
I applaud your efforts to help these guys. I would throw in some technical advice on this subject but since I don't know any I will stick to riding. Not sure what your post meant but if anyone can comprehend it, TwoLane will be the man. I look forward to meeting and riding with you some day. Just remember I have that old school SERT and may not be operating at maximum efficiency!
Sure wish the rain would stop here.
I'm bored!
I'm ready to ride!
S
/
B
:2vrolijk_21:
Now that's some funny chit, I don't care who you are... ;D ;D
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Don
Good luck with your tuning!
I would help but the BFH would be a little overkill.
Hoist
I have a great SERT man down here. But I think you know of a good one up there.
Since I'm a little bored and it's raining maybe I will go to the garage and hook up the Commadore 64 to the 50cc scooters so I can adjust the cell values and the fuel curve.
Rhino
I applaud your efforts to help these guys. I would throw in some technical advice on this subject but since I don't know any I will stick to riding. Not sure what your post meant but if anyone can comprehend it, TwoLane will be the man. I look forward to meeting and riding with you some day. Just remember I have that old school SERT and may not be operating at maximum efficiency!
Sure wish the rain would stop here.
I'm bored!
I'm ready to ride!
S
/
B
:2vrolijk_21:
Terry I fully agree! That's some funny chit man! Chip you done good! The whole post is extremely entertaining!!! ;D ;D ;D :2vrolijk_21: Hoist! 8)
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SB
"if anyone can comprehend it, TwoLane will be the man. I look forward to meeting and riding with you some day. Just remember I have that old school SERT and may not be operating at maximum efficiency!"
Hey SB,
I hear whatever you may lack in efficiency you make up for it with brute HP. Of course that works! Me, I like the TMAX, the user interfaces are easy, and when it gets tough, like mixing parts that don't make up a map that is in the Zippers file, well, then I make a custom one, but then, it takes a dyno to play. And some patience. Not everyone has the time to do it, but, if you follow, the TMAX benefits from existing maps that are already on file with Zippers. It takes them many many hours to develop a map, I even heard them referred to as the Mapping Company.
Then for each application, the TMAX can go either side of perfect on the map they developed, to allow for differences on the bike you own, correcting things automatically, and making your map perfect. For you, the old sert guy, one difference is that when you start with a map from Harley for the SERT, you MUST then tune it for your specific bike, and it is then accomplished whereas the hard work is already done, and the TMAX does the rest after the base map install, automatically.
If Twolane has this nailed, fine. But I see he is having pinging and hot weather problems. But believe me, there is no way that the TMAX will change its running habits in hot or cold weather, and the ping, I'll bet is is the fuel. HOWEVER (always the caveat) What you will see when the weather changes is the performance. The air density is substantially reduced when it is hot, or when at high altitude, it comes into play. Density, means just that. The air is more dense. The molecules are closer together. You get more good air, and the TMAX will feed more fuel the colder, and lower your elevation. The density altitude, which affects all this, on a normally aspirated engine, when it is hot, actually simulates a higher running altitude. It is the pressure altitude actually.
Anyway, bikes run better when cool, unless turbocharged. Bikes lose a lot of HP when high up, or real hot. Air Fuel ratios are automatically adjusted in the TMAX for excactly these conditions. The only culprit I can see is bad fuel, or the unlikely clogged fuel filter, restricting flow at high rpms.
So, I am done, did my post allocation for the week, now I can go ride and do a couple wheelies before dark.
Rhino
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Don
Good luck with your tuning!
I would help but the BFH would be a little overkill.
Chip, not that frustrated with it. (yet!)
If it ever gets that bad I'll call you though. We'll uninstall that bitch on beat on it with two BFH if that ever happens. :smash: :smash:
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Anyway, bikes run better when cool, unless turbocharged. Bikes lose a lot of HP when high up, or real hot. Air Fuel ratios are automatically adjusted in the TMAX for excactly these conditions. The only culprit I can see is bad fuel, or the unlikely clogged fuel filter, restricting flow at high rpms.
So, I am done, did my post allocation for the week, now I can go ride and do a couple wheelies before dark.
Rhino
Don't disagree with the foundations of any of that Rhino. Unfortunately with the onset of warmer weather I've been seeing it across multiple tanks of fuel from different labels. Do know the fuel filter is clean too. Damn thing just pings :nixweiss: . Hotter the ambient temp the worse it is. Really warm days the little red bitch will ping hard if you're not careful with it. And that's before it hits altitude when I take it over the Rockies in summer and drier air next month.
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Twolane, why don't you give up some details, bike year, specs, options, build, exhaust, map U r using, let me take a look from here?
I'll respond Sunday, I need some R & R Sat.
Rhino
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Twolane, why don't you give up some details, bike year, specs, options, build, exhaust, map U r using, let me take a look from here?
I'll respond Sunday, I need some R & R Sat.
Rhino
Sure thing. In bits and pieces it's all scattered around this or other threads but to get it all here in place we got this:
It's my red bike. 05 SEEG.
The hardware package is everything in Zippers "103 Muscle" kit. That's the .005 over HD pistons, the rework of the heads they do, their 50mm throttle body, intake and air cleaner and the 657 cam. Of no consequence to the tuning are Feuling lifters, cam plate, oil pump and Zippers push rods. The map loaded is ZEEBMGBCXE082106 and was the map supplied in the ECM when delivered from Zippers.
Rhino I've tried a few things within the map. Nothing dramatic; just never enough time to play with it that much. I am certainly not above begging assistance from a soul more learned than myself. So any help is greatly appreciated.
Currently it's just a base load of the map with no alterations other than three degrees retarded through the three or four steps that cover the cruise RPM range followed and preceded by graduating two step increments of 2 degrees and one degree to bring it back to baseline. With that and AFR again at 13:1 across the board it is behaving as we've discussed here.
As we've also discussed here, I do like the hardware. Especially enjoy both what it can do on its own (if the base is close enough to ride from) and what you can do with it. Much control amd flexibility that just wouldn't be available otherwise. I apparently just need a better base implementation of that hardware than that which was supplied from the company.
Thanks again. Appreciate any efforts you might expend.
Don
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Water vapor does not combust well. Hot air temps hold more water vapor without condensing in the form of condensation...period. Physics. It's not fuel. It's temp, combined with relative humidy (water molecules) in the atmosphere.
I guess my basic question here would be how quickly the ECM is able to compensate for variances in air temp/water vapor/fuel mixture.
Don, does the situation improve at all if you're riding over a period of a couple of hours when it starts pinging? I don't know chit about the TMax, so I'm just posing questions here to learn something.
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Water vapor does not combust well. Hot air temps hold more water vapor without condensing in the form of condensation...period. Physics. It's not fuel. It's temp, combined with relative humidy (water molecules) in the atmosphere.
Give that man a banana :bananarock: .
Don, does the situation improve at all if you're riding over a period of a couple of hours when it starts pinging? I don't know chit about the TMax, so I'm just posing questions here to learn something.
Not much difference (if any) dependent on time on the road. I'm never twisting it hard until it's warmed up anyway. Assuming the engine has run long enough to get warmed up though the biggest (if not only) variable that dictates whether she's going to ping or not is how hot the day is.
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Give that man a banana :bananarock: .
Not much difference (if any) dependent on time on the road. I'm never twisting it hard until it's warmed up anyway. Assuming the engine has run long enough to get warmed up though the biggest (if not only) variable that dictates whether she's going to ping or not is how hot the day is.
My 80" Evo carb 10.5:1 does the same. The octane doesn't help. Even Cam 2. I'm convinced it's the heads on mine. Yours were just done. Could they be suspect? Hoist! 8)
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My 80" Evo carb 10.5:1 does the same. The octane doesn't help. Even Cam 2. I'm convinced it's the heads on mine. Yours were just done. Could they be suspect? Hoist! 8)
Howie, when the question is "could they" the answer is always yes. Biggest trouble there is I absolutely don't know. The heads are reworked by Zippers to (hopefully) improve upon the relatively poor hemispheric chamber we were saddled with to begin with. The work is accepted, however, based solely on their assurance that it's an improvement. Still waiting for response from Zippers to fully flesh out their ideas, suggestions, fears, concerns, alternatives or general ruminations on how to proceed. They're busy.
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Howie, when the question is "could they" the answer is always yes. Biggest trouble there is I absolutely don't know. The heads are reworked by Zippers to (hopefully) improve upon the relatively poor hemispheric chamber we were saddled with to begin with. The work is accepted, however, based solely on their assurance that it's an improvement. Still waiting for response from Zippers to fully flesh out their ideas, suggestions, fears, concerns, alternatives or general ruminations on how to proceed. They're busy.
Just thinking out loud, since the Evo's done it for a few years. I've tried gas, oil cooler to get the heat down, ignitions, timing changes-simple stuff with the Dyna S. Nothing helped. It's been happening since I did the top end 20,000 miles ago. Next top end will get new heads. That's why I mentioned it since mine did it since the heads were done. Hoist! 8)
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Water vapor does not combust well. Hot air temps hold more water vapor without condensing in the form of condensation...period. Physics. It's not fuel. It's temp, combined with relative humidy (water molecules) in the atmosphere.
I guess my basic question here would be how quickly the ECM is able to compensate for variances in air temp/water vapor/fuel mixture.
Don, does the situation improve at all if you're riding over a period of a couple of hours when it starts pinging? I don't know chit about the TMax, so I'm just posing questions here to learn something.
TC, what you are saying makes more sense to me than anything I've heard. If it's bad fuel, then every damn tank of fuel that I've run through it since the weather's been hot has been bad. My Zippers 117" is pinging bad now, and didn't do it at all during the winter. I just don't think that it's the fuel...I think it's the T-Max. My 103" was a high compression motor with a Race Tuner, and it didn't ping at all. I'm going to a Zippers tuner in a few weeks, and if he can't tune it out, I'm going back to the Race Tuner...no question about it. Couple the pinging with the fact that the turn signals won't self-cancel, with no help on that from Zippers either, and I'm about ready to try something different, even if it's wrong.
Oh, and mine gets worse after you've been riding for an hour or so.
And now, my #%$&^ battery won't charge...I think it's the voltage regulator. Chit!
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TC, what you are saying makes more sense to me than anything I've heard. If it's bad fuel, then every damn tank of fuel that I've run through it since the weather's been hot has been bad. My Zippers 117" is pinging bad now, and didn't do it at all during the winter. I just don't think that it's the fuel...I think it's the T-Max. My 103" was a high compression motor with a Race Tuner, and it didn't ping at all. I'm going to a Zippers tuner in a few weeks, and if he can't tune it out, I'm going back to the Race Tuner...no question about it. Couple the pinging with the fact that the turn signals won't self-cancel, with no help on that from Zippers either, and I'm about ready to try something different, even if it's wrong.
Oh, and mine gets worse after you've been riding for an hour or so.
And now, my #%$&^ battery won't charge...I think it's the voltage regulator. Chit!
SCRM, our circumstances with detonation sound similar. It's not fuel. It's not seasonal fuel mixes. It's not fuel mixes varied by geography. Mine has done it in six states from lots of different fuel labels. Unless Zippers can make it better they will have created a three season bike not suitable for riding in the high summer.
I hope they offer mapping solutions that will address the matter that (now) quite a few of us seem to be having. Perhaps they'll work to extend their customer service reputation, and resurrect some of the damage they've caused themselves by inattention, by something as direct as offering to tune bikes that are acting up. A willingness to make right what their system makes effectively unridable during the height of the riding season seems a fair reaction on their part.
If the system in fact can't be tailored to effective summer riding I suppose they might have to be asked to just buy some systems back. After all, nowhere in the disclosure information is the system described as "revolutionarily effective for Harley engine management; seven or eight monts out of the year."
Of course as of yet it seems no one has actually got a contextual response. So patience must be exercised.
For a little bit.
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So patience must be exercised.
For a little bit.
What's that I hear? Zippers laughing? I'll be that's what would happen if I request that they buy it back. And patience? I'm out of it...Race Tuner's not perfect I know, but it does offer some advantages...advantages that I was willing to forego for what I thought, and what Zippers represented was a much improved ECM/Tuning Module. I now think that they put this thing on the market much too hastily with too many bugs not yet worked out. And that service-after-the-sale that they were supposedly so renowned for? Now too busy I guess.
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What's that I hear? Zippers laughing? I'll be that's what would happen if I request that they buy it back. And patience? I'm out of it...Race Tuner's not perfect I know, but it does offer some advantages...advantages that I was willing to forego for what I thought, and what Zippers represented was a much improved ECM/Tuning Module. I now think that they put this thing on the market much too hastily with too many bugs not yet worked out. And that service-after-the-sale that they were supposedly so renowned for? Now too busy I guess.
SCRM, I still believe in Santa Clause. So I'm just certain Zippers is working the midnight oil this very weekend developing a solution for those of us experiencing this problem.
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SCRM, I still believe in Santa Clause. So I'm just certain Zippers is working the midnight oil this very weekend developing a solution for those of us experiencing this problem.
:santa3: :santa3: :santa3: :santa3: :santa3:
Ho Ho Ho boys and girls!
Merry Tmax to one and all!
Ho Ho Ho
:santa3: :santa3: :santa3: :santa3: :santa3:
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Ho Ho Ho
C'mon now Chip. I haven't called anyone those kinds of names; yet.
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C'mon now Chip. I haven't called anyone those kinds of names; yet.
What about that lady(?) that lived above you working on that 1000 a day budget.
Or was that 1000 per hour?
Didn't she qualify?
:nixweiss:
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What about that lady(?) that lived above you working on that 1000 a day budget.
Or was that 1000 per hour?
Didn't she qualify?
:nixweiss:
According to her it was per hour. And, at those rates, I don't think she did. Courtesan maybe. From my perspective though she was just a good neighbor.
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Sorry Rhino, if that's the way it came across it wasn't what I intended. Still running it up to temp. Just not chasing the line. Exactly as you describe here.
Don,
I'm sure someone has probally mentioned this...Have you tried a set of colder plugs....??? Greg
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Don,
I'm sure someone has probally mentioned this...Have you tried a set of colder plugs....??? Greg
Greg, it hadn't come up in the conversation here (and I should have mentioned it). But yes, they've been tried. Infact they're in it now. Made no appreciable difference.
Thanks for reminding me of that detail :2vrolijk_21: .
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I tuned in tonight to hear Rhino's report.
Hint Hint
:nixweiss:
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My 80" Evo carb 10.5:1 does the same. The octane doesn't help. Even Cam 2. I'm convinced it's the heads on mine. Yours were just done. Could they be suspect? Hoist! 8)
Hoist brings up a point worth considering. It is possible that combustion chamber modifications may have increased the octane requirements of the engine to a point which pump gas can no longer meet. If this is the case, switching ECM’s and/or pulling the spark timing back may not be the complete answer.
There may be some value in looking at the experience of others running stock or H-D’s HTCC heads in a build with the TMAT auto tune. I suggest this because the HTCC heads seem capable if handling more relative timing and higher CR’s without issue. I ran H-D’s CNC ported heads with their domed piston in my 2002, 103 without issue in 2005. I currently run the 103+ heads with their domed 10.5:1, 113” pistons in weather that you wouldn’t put your dog outside in; including record breaking Las Vegas and Death Valley heat in 7-2005 (103) and last year’s killer California heat (115 shaded) in July (113”) with no engine knock issues.
I run a set of Branch Flowmetrics heads on my ’97 Buell S1. Branch’s kit uses a J&E, 10.5:1 domed piston with their modified “bathtub” chamber. This engine is a 100+ octane engine; you can only nurse it on 91 octane without knocking; a real PITA. Buell’s White Lightning with a Race Kit makes the same power running a 10.2:1 CR and 91 octane gasoline. Apparently the fastest burn doesn’t necessarily always ring the bell.
One thing common to the Branch equipped machines, including a ’93 modified Bagger that I used to run, they seem to have a propensity for quickly blackening a fresh oil change. I attributed this to high pressure blow-by resulting from the fast burn of the Branch combustion chamber. I swapped the piston rings out for Total Seal gapless rings on both the Buell and ’93 Bagger with no change in the oil contamination. The oil in the Branch equipped machines would appear visibly blackened after just a few hundred miles; a cammed and carbureted EVO or Twin Cam with stock or HTCC heads will run 1,000 + miles on a fresh change before the oil begins to darken.
A couple of questions that I would be asking are:
Does the engine oil prematurely darken relative to a stock or mildly modified machine?
Are the folks like Rhino who seem to be having better results with the TMAT & Auto Tune running a different cylinder head and piston package? Is there a pattern?
Take a look at a couple of “canned” SERT timing tables for a build similar to yours. Are there significant differences in the timing tables at the same load and RPM that you experience issues? If the tables don’t directly compare, is it something that can be translated with reasonable accuracy?
Beyond that, I got nuthin’. Good luck and I hope you get things working ok for the big road trip to the great north west.
djkak
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There may be some value in looking at the experience of others running stock or H-D’s HTCC heads in a build with the TMAT auto tune.
DJ, the combination is or course always a consideration. In this case it's still a question placed at Zippers doorstep though. It is their ECM with their mapping to implement it running their cams and heads completely rebuilt by them to their own specifications. It is a collection of parts purchased after conversations that included the words "purchasing for reliablity," "not looking for extremes," "it's got to be rideable," "not looking for issues" and other sundry statements to get the point across.
Kitzmiller's responses were always in the affirmative. This was a build with a collection of parts that would run all day long, be stable, wasn't extreme in any way and would behave well. Fortunately it is every bit of that. Unfortunately it is only every bit of that during cool weather.
DJ, while the head work of course has to be considered (because everything has to be considered) I have discovered now many (too many) ongoing discussions around not just our site but elsewhere on the Internet of similar issues. SCRM, Fr8tran, myself and a few others have seen it to greater or less extent here; and with a variety of engine component configurations.
The one constant to the issue has been the TMax system. More accurately it's probably Zippers implementation of the TMax system via their maps. In practice at our end that ends up being the same thing though. But whether it's Zippers TMax system or Zippers TMax system in combination with all the other Zippers parts it's still a question I must ask of Zippers. Zippers, unfortuantely, just isn't willing to answer.
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Don, when you talk about warm weather, what temp and humidity conditions are you talking about? Just curious as we have regular 90-95 degree temps and high humidity during the summer months here and I haven't had similar issues with my 120 build and TMAX. However, I did have a custom base map built, so I'm not using a Zipper's base map. I should also note that I was very concerned when considering this build about heat build up which is why I chose to thermal coat the combustion chambers and piston tops. My tuner said he has never seen a 120 run as cool as mine, rarely reaches cylinder head temp of 300 degrees. Just a thought...
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Don, when you talk about warm weather, what temp and humidity conditions are you talking about? Just curious as we have regular 90-95 degree temps and high humidity during the summer months here and I haven't had similar issues with my 120 build and TMAX. However, I did have a custom base map built, so I'm not using a Zipper's base map. I should also note that I was very concerned when considering this build about heat build up which is why I chose to thermal coat the combustion chambers and piston tops. My tuner said he has never seen a 120 run as cool as mine, rarely reaches cylinder head temp of 300 degrees. Just a thought...
Pete, I first started hearing it at ambient temps of around 80 degrees. Detuned the timing curve slightly and it went away to about 85 degrees ambient. Detuned a bit more and could get away to 90. Now detuned significantly and still get detonation on days in the low to mid 90s under only moderate acceleration or an uphill grade in the road.
To give an idea of the consequence of what's been done to deal with the pinging consider the following. The bike had the 575 cams as an upgrade by itself before doing the Zippers "103 Muscle" package that included different cams, pistons, significant headowork, throttle body, intake manifold and air cleaner. To deal with the detonation in response to only June's temperatures I have had to detune the bike to a point where it was stronger with just the 575 cam job then it is now. This begs the question "why'd I spend all that money with Zippers." Especially when a stated precondition to the further work was that the end goal be a preparation that was stable, reliable, not extreme and good for the road.
The temps may vary a bit. But several now have reported detonation issues with the TMax as warmer weather arrived. Some very bad, even worse than mine. Some much milder.
As your application suggests I do tend to believe it's a problem caused by the implementation of the hardware via the supplied map than the actual hardware itself. But for those 99% of us who don't have a tuner competent in the Zippers package anywhere within range the hardware and software effectively become one; especially when one of the initial promises made on the system was that their provided base maps were all that was needed to get you started.
At different times Kitzmiller used the words "almost identical" and "just about perfect" to describe the match of their base map to my bike. Given their intimations and suggestions of system capability, intelligence and tuning range that should be satisfactory. That it's not is unfortunate. That they seem willing to let the issue lay dormant and do absolutely nothing about it is more so.
Fr8trn already spoke of just removing his. In PMs here two others have suggested that is a step they'll soon have to take if they can't get theirs tuned to a driveable state. Four other members (just on this site) have written stating their intent to not purchase the system (or the system and other hardware) now when they were near doing so. That's an unfortunate consequence to the company. But an earned consequence for such a total lack of response or ethic to address at all a paid client that simply asked for help.
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Don, when you talk about warm weather, what temp and humidity conditions are you talking about? Just curious as we have regular 90-95 degree temps and high humidity during the summer months here and I haven't had similar issues with my 120 build and TMAX. However, I did have a custom base map built, so I'm not using a Zipper's base map. I should also note that I was very concerned when considering this build about heat build up which is why I chose to thermal coat the combustion chambers and piston tops. My tuner said he has never seen a 120 run as cool as mine, rarely reaches cylinder head temp of 300 degrees. Just a thought...
Pete
We may just be lucky with the 120.
Hanging with AJ (I say that like it's a good thing :2vrolijk_21:) I bought me one of those infared meters for checking my motor temperature when I stop. I am alway 40 to 60 degrees cooler than the other motors.
Like you I have never seen 300 degrees on my motor.
Just an FYI
Probably has nothing to do with the T-max
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Pete
We may just be lucky with the 120.
Hanging with AJ (I say that like it's a good thing :2vrolijk_21:) I bought me one of those infared meters for checking my motor temperature when I stop. I am alway 40 to 60 degrees cooler than the other motors.
Like you I have never seen 300 degrees on my motor.
Just an FYI
Probably has nothing to do with the T-max
That's an interesting ancillary note on this one Chip. Even with the detonation issue that seems so directly relative to ambient temps I'm not seeing or suspecting high engine temperatures. A couple months back when in Georgia Chuck shot mine and his with his I/R gun after identical rides. I was almost a 100 degrees cooler at one point. Even when putting slowly through town on a thoroughly heat soaked engine I've still yet to see oil temps reporting much above 230-250. Going down the road on even the warmest days so far those oil temps are in the 160 range. So I've got to believe it's ignition initiated detonation in conjunction with higher ambient temperatures rather than simply premature detonation from fuel hitting hot jugs and pistons.
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Hello Don,
I've checked my voice mail, email and with our with our product support guys and so far no one has reported hearing from you about your problem. So I can only assume your cries for help have only been on this site, not to Zipper's directly?
I've mentioned before that our workload won't allow me the time to exclusively monitor this site to help solve any issue that may arise. Since the product is being so widely accepted, we have established channels to deal with questions and tech support on the ThunderMax. I know you've stated that you've been busy, but if you'll take the time to locate the tech support form at the back of the ThunderMax manual, fill it out and send it to us, we'll be happy to help. But there are some questions that need to be answered before we can. Also, since you've modified the map, please copy and send the map to productsupport@zippersperformance.com so we can see what you've done to it.
I've attached the form in case you no longer have it. If you'll take the time to follow these steps, we'll get back to you asap.
Thanks, JK
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Hello Don,
I've checked my voice mail, email and with our with our product support guys and so far no one has reported hearing from you about your problem. So I can only assume your cries for help have only been on this site, not to Zipper's directly?
John:
While I am gratified that you have finally responded here your assumption would be incorrect. I called Zippers. Spoke with Randy. Randy is who the receptionist described as the person handling Thundermax and map questions. I described what was going on. The gentlemen said he'd get back to me. There was no other guidance to tech support forms or any other medium of support offered. If you have a mandated support process that company personnel don't advise of, yet won't actually offer support without, the fault is not with me.
I waited for that promised response. It didn't come. I then asked you here directly as a means to follow up or pursue the question in an alternative means to that first attempt. Though your busy schedule didn't keep you from logging in to the site several times after the question was placed you declined any opportunity to answer or even recognize the question; as had been the case with other questions asked here by other members. You didn't even offer a quick response to cite the support the process you now cite as the mandatory means to gain aid. Having quickly done so could have gained a company customer valuable time in the process. That such a simple response wasn't given initially is difficult to understand.
It was only after the question in this forum had been posted through a few of your login sequences that the conversation was taken to this more public and open thread. In other words there were no original "cries" only on this public forum. There were, instead, appropriate and professional requests to the company followed by a similar request to you here in the vendor section that would have allowed a simple, direct and one-on-one response. After all of that was unheeded there were still no "cries." There was just general (and earned) dissatisfaction that became an accurate public discussion here.
Your tone seems to suggest you feel victimized or targeted. That wasn't the case though. There was ample opportunity to respond before the bullseye was self-placed. To further prosecute the process, however, I will gladly execute the form you cited. The issue exists with absolutely no changes to the map. In fact it is worst in that trim. So it should be an easy process. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. That pudding will then be judged by the quality and alacrity of the response to the form you mandate for support. It will be interesting whether the form process becomes a medium for effective support or a mechanism for further delay.
Thank you for finally offering response. It has been anticipated. Whether actual progress results is what you and I (and anyone else) can now pay heed to.
Don Carey
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John,
Just in case there might be some error in documents handling through your fax the docs requested should no be on Zippers' fax machine right now. To avoid further delaying the already delayed process I produced the data requested right away. To supplement the fax transmissions copies are provided here.
Your doc:
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A screen shot of the full data page.
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Since the product is being so widely accepted, we have established channels to deal with questions and tech support on the ThunderMax. I know you've stated that you've been busy, but if you'll take the time to locate the tech support form at the back of the ThunderMax manual, fill it out and send it to us, we'll be happy to help. But there are some questions that need to be answered before we can. Also, since you've modified the map, please copy and send the map to productsupport@zippersperformance.com so we can see what you've done to it.
I've attached the form in case you no longer have it. If you'll take the time to follow these steps, we'll get back to you asap.
Thanks, JK
BOY!
This gets better and better.
Just glad I don't have the Thunder Max Auto Tune.
Don your post of,
"The issue exists with absolutely no changes to the map."
Contradicts with JK's post of,
" Also, since you've modified the map, please copy and send the map to productsupport@zippersperformance.com so we can see what you've done to it."
I thought of lots of remarks that I could post and even erased some that would probably get me chastised but you clearly have much more patience than I do.
So now the wait for a response begins.
Good luck Don, the PC was shipped today.
Hope you don't need it!
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Don,
Got it! We'll take a look and get back to you tomorrow.
(Sorry for the delay, I had to find a dictionary and look up 'alacrity'. For other common folk like me, it's a noun meaning "cheerful eagerness; sprightliness" ;)
Thanks, JK
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Don,
(Sorry for the delay, I had to find a dictionary and look up 'alacrity'. For other common folk like me, it's a noun meaning "cheerful eagerness; sprightliness" ;)
Thanks, JK
Yep, 2Lane is the petard. Besides learning alot about motorcycle mod's from him, I have also increased my vocabulary with his help. :)
In all seriousness, help him get his problem solved JDK, you won't find a better salesman for your company's product.
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I tuned in tonight to hear Rhino's report.
Hint Hint
:nixweiss:
I got a few comments, but I am currently hadicapped with a blind eye probelm. My daugheter typed this for me. No riding for a while, no seeing good either. Called corneal ulcer, its not a good thing, be patient, will report back soon with a TMAX solution I am sure, need a few days to get through this.
Rhino(orpiratefornow)
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No riding for a while, no seeing good either. Called corneal ulcer, its not a good thing, be patient, will report back soon with a TMAX solution I am sure, need a few days to get through this.
Rhino,
I feel your pain, bro. Just recovered from the same, due to sand in my eye :freak:(under contact lens) from a passing dump truck. Wicked pain and blurred vision solved by vicodin & $75 eye drops.
Good luck & will await another fine update on the TMAT. Mine does a good job, but can always be fine-tuned.
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Rhino,
Hope your eye heals up really fast!
Mark
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I got a few comments, but I am currently hadicapped with a blind eye probelm. My daugheter typed this for me. No riding for a while, no seeing good either. Called corneal ulcer, its not a good thing, be patient, will report back soon with a TMAX solution I am sure, need a few days to get through this.
Rhino(orpiratefornow)
Rhino
Damn man, get that eye better.
Looks like JK is going to do the right thing and help Don and the others.
If I can help you with anything let me know!
S
/
B
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Don,
Got it! We'll take a look and get back to you tomorrow.
(Sorry for the delay, I had to find a dictionary and look up 'alacrity'. For other common folk like me, it's a noun meaning "cheerful eagerness; sprightliness" ;)
Thanks, JK
John, I'm not at all interested in responses that are non-responsive. I (and too many others) have already had non-responsive.
Staying on point really will be your best course of action at this point. Sarcasm as a customer service tool rates barely above the entire lack of response that had been the case previously. That Zippers is at least engaged now is something. But, then again, so are geriatrics in bikinis. They do little to earn my favor as well.
It should be clear I'm only interested in the work and service you provide. Those have been lacking. You can work to repair that and the light your efforts have cast on your company. Or you can keep looking things up in the dictionary.
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I got a few comments, but I am currently hadicapped with a blind eye probelm. My daugheter typed this for me. No riding for a while, no seeing good either. Called corneal ulcer, its not a good thing, be patient, will report back soon with a TMAX solution I am sure, need a few days to get through this.
Rhino(orpiratefornow)
Rhino, when you're able to read this please know we're feeling for you man. It sounds painful. Hope that it's something that is recovered from very quickly. Thank the daughter from all of us for helping you check in. And thanks again for even thinking about taking the time to help when you did. It was really appreciated. Feel better. Get better. Heal up. Nothing is more important than that :2vrolijk_21: .
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Looks like JK is going to do the right thing and help Don and the others.
Chip, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that whomever at the company is tasked with looking at this is able to supply an effective solution. That certainly is the easiest alternative. At this point I've got to cover my bases though. Picked up a set of o2 bung plugs and with that Power Commander I can change horses quickly if necessary before the Nelson trip. All I had ever asked for was effort.
Now that an effort may finally be forthcoming the next question will of course have to be judging its effectiveness. We've got days in the 90s ahead of us by weeks' end. So a comparison will be readily available. Fortunately I can get a free spin of the bike on the same dyno that spun the bike with the original map. So a fair comparison of the effects of the new map can be judged.
The more important consideration of course will be the seat of the pants feel. It it again feels good, sounds good and runs without causing fear that will be progress. The difficult nature of support in this case still leaves one with concern about the "what if" we all might face out in the boonies sometime. But one thing at a time.
If the offered solution here in fact isn't a solution that future consideration won't have to be worried about. Then would just change horses. If the supplied alternative is satisfactory that will be progress. Can't say I'd still be 100% comfortable with the efforts they've provided to date. But progress is progress. Future judgements would be based accordingly.
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As you know, I'm on the road on my 5000 mile trip at the moment, so I've missed a LOT of posts in this thread.
Today I rode in 110 degree heat all day (400+ miles) and my bike was pinking like there was no tomorrow on any attempt to open the throttle wide. :-(
I was using 95 Octane gas, as I couldn't find 98, which I normally run.
My (brand new when I left - 1800 miles ago) mufflers have the left one going dark gold at the entrance to the muffler (As I experienced with my non-touring mufflers) and I'm finding that ANY slight holdup in traffic has my engine warning light come on due to high head temps; despite my efforts, the TMAT is still plainly making the engine (particularly the rear cylinder) run too hot.
The pinking however, is the worst I've ever heard!
I think the problem is that there's no close enough base map.... :-(
Jim
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Don,
Got it! We'll take a look and get back to you tomorrow.
(Sorry for the delay, I had to find a dictionary and look up 'alacrity'. For other common folk like me, it's a noun meaning "cheerful eagerness; sprightliness" ;)
Thanks, JK
Well, technically I guess he has until midnight tonight, June 19th, but I ain't holding my breath. And I see Eqcons is having the very same problem. This sucks major big time. Keep pouring on the coals Don - not only for yourself but for all the other trusting souls who bought into their hype.
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Well, technically I guess he has until midnight tonight, June 19th, but I ain't holding my breath. And I see Eqcons is having the very same problem. This sucks major big time. Keep pouring on the coals Don - not only for yourself but for all the other trusting souls who bought into their hype.
To whom it may concern:
I made a post in the 'Vendors Tech Support' section on May 20, just a simple question regarding the pros & cons of putting the TMAT on a stock motor.
That post has had 80 views, but ZERO answers from Zippers.
I now own the product and live in southern Louisiana (New Orleans) where the heat index has been over 100 the last few days due to high humidity.
I could use some assistance and have been reading Rhino's posts as he is the TMAT Guru as far as I'm concerned! (Thanks Rhino, keep up the outstanding work!)
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Well, technically I guess he has until midnight tonight, June 19th, but I ain't holding my breath. And I see Eqcons is having the very same problem. This sucks major big time. Keep pouring on the coals Don - not only for yourself but for all the other trusting souls who bought into their hype.
Jerry,
Seeing Jim's post above is yet another to add to the storyline. You'd not believe some of the PM's I've gotten since this has started as well. People's stories of lack of support, poor support, contradictory support and variations thereof are just startling. And so many. Many are quite concerned about being public in their concerns for fear they'll foreclose any options they might have of future assistance. Talk about feeling one's self to be between a rock and a hard place....
Jim, very sorry to read that you're suffering too. For a system that's supposed to be good, supported by an extensive library of excellent base maps, and able to adapt from those maps to supply us with an excellent, safe and reliable riding experience it certainly is full of ping sometimes. If one is lucky enough to score well with an accurate implementation via software map you are apparently good to go. Some have reported exactly such.
Too many are not though. Not even close is too often the case. Yet we're still supplied product and told we're ready for prime time. It seems not. You and Fr8trn have damaged if not cosmetically ruined exhaust. I'd likely have done the same if I'd not just pretty much stayed off the bike in the hottest of weather lately. Issues abound. Solutions, apparently, do not. Or at least not easily.
After Kitzmiller was either embarassed or annoyed enough to finally respond here during the last couple of days my documents response was sent back to them promptly yesterday. This morning I received a perfectly pleasant email from Dan Fitzmaurice asking for clarification on the driveablility concerns and a more thorough description of how the bike was behaving. That description was all here in the early part of this thread of course. But I can understand Kitzmiller not wanting to direct his colleague to this thread.
I responded to the gentleman's email of this morning and got this in response just before noon:
Don- This is good data I can work from. I will work on a revised table and forward it to you later tonight with instructions.
Thanks
Dan Fitzmaurice
Got home from a concert in Kansas City late this evening. No further response as of yet. So the initial promise of "later tonight" was missed.
However..... I'm not going to damn the man's efforts for one day. I don't know what is involved in what he's doing. I'd rather it be good than quick. So if he initially suggests one day and it happens to be the next that's fine. Ideally if his own suggested deadline is going to be missed he'd send a quick follow up advising such. I did ask to be kept apprized of progress. But right now it's just a few hours one way or the other and not a big deal.
If it drags on, however, then, well, it is what is. Right now I'm allowing the man the latitude to make the effort without new complaint. Ask me again in another 24/48 if "latitude to make the effort" is euphemism for "enough rope to hang themselves."
Ideally a mention here would be a gentle prod to remind them to pursue a solution. I'm damned if I'm chasing them any longer though. It is not appropriate that a company makes its clients force them to appropriate response and effort. It's simply not fair. It's less than ethical. Quite frankly it's a lazy approach to avoid as much effort as can be avoided short of being forced in to it.
In the end Zippers will either deliver an effective solution (for which I'd thank Fitzmaurice for his efforts quite gladly) or they won't. If not they'll know they and their system haven't lived up to their promises or even baseline expectations. At that point they'll either offer to buy the system back or they won't. The choice for ethical and correct or avoidant and dismissive will be theirs though. Others later can judge whether to patronize the company based entirely on the choices they make and the efforts (or effectiveness thereof) they exercise on thier clients' behalf.
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I'm not involved with any of this, but was very close to buying the TMAT earlier on. I feel your pain and hope you can get a satisfactory result in very short order.
Like many others watching here, the way this is being handled is just as important as how the equipment performs.
Good luck to you all.
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I'm not involved with any of this, but was very close to buying the TMAT earlier on. I feel your pain and hope you can get a satisfactory result in very short order.
Like many others watching here, the way this is being handled is just as important as how the equipment performs.
Good luck to you all.
I still feel, like with every tuning device, you need to create your own custom map on a Dyno, to get your starting point accurate. You can use Zippers base map and get lucky, you can tweak it like Rhino does. But the bottom line is that to have it run right, the base map has to be right. The only way to get the correct base map for each engine is to map it directly for that engine. You need a Dyno and a guy that knows TMAT software to create this. I still don't see how this device avoids Dyno Tuning. It will maintain a tune to a map you have in there. But that map had better be right to start off with. I think the marketing exceeds the engineering! JMO! ;) Hoist! 8)
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I still feel, like with every tuning device, you need to create your own custom map on a Dyno, to get your starting point accurate. You can use Zippers base map and get lucky, you can tweak it like Rhino does. But the bottom line is that to have it run right, the base map has to be right. The only way to get the correct base map for each engine is to map it directly for that engine. You need a Dyno and a guy that knows TMAT software to create this. I still don't see how this device avoids Dyno Tuning. It will maintain a tune to a map you have in there. But that map had better be right to start off with. I think the marketing exceeds the engineering! JMO! ;) Hoist! 8)
D'uh :huepfenlol2:
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I still feel, like with every tuning device, you need to create your own custom map on a Dyno, to get your starting point accurate. You can use Zippers base map and get lucky, you can tweak it like Rhino does. But the bottom line is that to have it run right, the base map has to be right. The only way to get the correct base map for each engine is to map it directly for that engine. You need a Dyno and a guy that knows TMAT software to create this. I still don't see how this device avoids Dyno Tuning. It will maintain a tune to a map you have in there. But that map had better be right to start off with. I think the marketing exceeds the engineering! JMO! ;) Hoist! 8)
Ditto, couldn't have said it better myself!
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Then the system is no more useful than a SERT or PCIII, which is a far cry from what is represented by Zippers. Finding a Tmax tuner has always been the problem with the Tmax before the autotune feature was a glimmer in anyone's eye. Unless you live in the immediate 200 mile radius of Zippers.
That they have not provided a base map on a motor BUILT BY THEM, in essence, which makes the bike drivable, is inexcusable. I followed Don's build closely, as I will be doing things to my bike in the next year, and he has Zippers parts, Zippers machine work, and Zippers base map, in a build that is not at all radical, just what I would consider middle of the road, considering what CAN be done to a 103 platform. Yes, every bike is different, but that difference is not radically significant, IMO. A good base map should at least get any similar motor in the ball park...even in the infield. Then the tuning is just fine tuning, not starting from outside the stadium. That is the VERY thing the autotune is supposed to take care of, else it's just a box and a couple of sensors, able to MONITOR, not tune.
The TmaxAT was on my list of parts to acquire over the next several months. Unless this is resolved, and quickly, I'll be looking at alternate methodology to accomplish my goals.
Based on initial reports from Don and several other people here, I have RECOMMENDED this system to a few people I know. In a million years, I would have never dreamed these kinds of problems would have cropped up just because of ambient temps and humidity. If the product cannot adapt for changing weather, might as well be a boat anchor.
I really hope Zippers steps up to the plate on this, and does so in a damn big hurry.
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Then the system is no more useful than a SERT or PCIII,
TC, after what has been learned recently I can't disagree. We're seeing that base mapping of much greater extent then they can supply out of the box is very often necessary. In the public forum here or via PM I've now seen discussion of just over a dozen with driveability issue of greater or lesser concern. Have no idea what our total cohort of TMax w/AT users might be. But a dozen out of any number provided by this membership is statistically very signicant.
I've no qualm with saying I wish I'd gone a different direction. It's unfortunate I started in winter so could not immediately have the problems present. But it is what it is. So my first option will be to make work what I've got. Others should note what they might have to go through to be working effectively. To that end....
I really hope Zippers steps up to the plate on this, and does so in a damn big hurry.
About noon today an email from Dan Fitzmaurice at Zippers arrived with a revised map and other instructions. As described last night I have no issue with it being a few hours later than originally suggested. The response from Fitzmaurice has been of a friendly tone and helpful tone. Getting the revised map in the time frame I have is also a perfectly adequate response. If Zippers writ large had been this responsive (and accurately responsive) from day one the relationship would be somewhat different than it's currently been forged.
Within a day or two I'll have an opportunity to try the revised map. Have promised Fitzmaurice would advise him of driveability progress made or not made by the revised map. Hopefully this will be real progress. If not hopefully a follow on effort tweaking it a bit more would finish dialing it in. If such a follow on effort is also supplied with the same alacrity (sorry John, look it up) as was Dan's effort with this one his efforts will have made a strong step in the right direction toward repairing some of the damaged perception the company has caused itself.
Quite frankly the errors have been more than one. So one correct effort won't make up for it. It would still be a difficult and unwarranted choice to grant anew total trust in the promises some there might offer or suggest based on one timely response. A first step is a frist step though. With luck it would be the beginning of a process of correction that restores lots of lost credibility and repairs some real damage to the perception of the company.
The next step will be to see what gain is had by the new map. If the problem several of us are experiencing is correctable via customer service, and that customer service can be had without having to drag the company kicking and screaming to the table to get it done, that will be progress worth noting.
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Good luck with the new upload, Don.
Like so many other things in life, a few screw ups can undo a whole chit load of at-a-boys. It's all about what a person or company does about the screw ups.
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I to am holding my purchase of the TMAT to see what happens here. I think this thread is getting diluted, with so many post. It would be nice if everyone could just recap if you have a TMAT are you having this problem or not, I think I see three that are, not heard from anyone not having the problem. Does this sound correct? Probably couldn't have seen this at the beginning, but a poll would have been nice.
At any rate keep us posted, I'd like to see how long it takes to get fixed, if at all!!!!! ???
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I'll recap mine for ya, I HAD a TMAT on mine, tried working out issues with Zippers, it still didn't work. Pinging and so much heat the mufflers blued then cracked/peeled the chrome plus poor...really poor mileage. I put the TMAT on the shelf, the other day, I put it in the mail to someone else who really wanted to have it, and boy do I feel better now......I'm not blessed with 2Lanes patience (or vocabulary I've been flat wearing out www.m-w.com in this thread).
Now if I could just figure out how to beat the lock HD has on the SERT so it can't be used on more than one bike. Sure wish I was in an Electronics lab still...woulda had it figured out by now.......
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I'll recap mine for ya, I HAD a TMAT on mine, tried working out issues with Zippers, it still didn't work. Pinging and so much heat the mufflers blued then cracked/peeled the chrome plus poor...really poor mileage. I put the TMAT on the shelf, the other day, I put it in the mail to someone else who really wanted to have it, and boy do I feel better now......I'm not blessed with 2Lanes patience (or vocabulary I've been flat wearing out www.m-w.com in this thread).
Now if I could just figure out how to beat the lock HD has on the SERT so it can't be used on more than one bike. Sure wish I was in an Electronics lab still...woulda had it figured out by now.......
Hey Mike. Have you tried it on another bike? What happened? I've posted about this before long time ago. This technology is all way above my pay grade but if some teenager in Scandavia can figure the unlock code for DVDs worth millions you'd think this could be done. Not enough teenagers riding Harleys I guess!
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Hey Mike. Have you tried it on another bike? What happened? I've posted about this before long time ago. This technology is all way above my pay grade but if some teenager in Scandavia can figure the unlock code for DVDs worth millions you'd think this could be done. Not enough teenagers riding Harleys I guess!
Yeah, tried it yesterday, it comes back and tells you that this isn't the right ECM and it can only be used on one ECM...and blah blah blah....was worth a try...... ;) I use to do this stuff, it would be easy with the right gear, I just don't have the right gear. You can still use it to read DTC and clear them, and anything in data collection mode seems to work, but ya can't download to the ECM....if I come up with something I'll be sure to BlackMarket it. LOL
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Just installed zipper efi on my SEUC 110in w/ d&d 2 into 1 exh, hi flow a/c, redshift 575 cams. fueling oil pump and lifters.
Wrench in Abq did the install. Seemed to run ok back home 130 miles. Now it just surges. Shift a gear, apply throttle, and it just doesn't come on. Don't think it applies to temp and the problems listed on this thread, but it's sure a pain in the ____! Now having to return to Abq this Friday, assume the mechanic will clear and reload. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Looking forward to letting the Eagle Scream.
JMack New Mexico
Riding For Those Who Can't
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Don, Freightrain, everyone else,
I SO identify with your issues. I've been waiting since February for a resolution to my Zippers ECM issue. And just like others, my calls, e-mails and such go unanswered. When I last spoke to Danny Fitz, he said he would have one of his techs work on the issue. I guess February to June is reasonable for them. At this point I really don't know what else any of us can do but continue to wait.
Mark
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Don, Freightrain, everyone else,
I SO identify with your issues. I've been waiting since February for a resolution to my Zippers ECM issue. And just like others, my calls, e-mails and such go unanswered. When I last spoke to Danny Fitz, he said he would have one of his techs work on the issue. I guess February to June is reasonable for them. At this point I really don't know what else any of us can do but continue to wait.
Mark
Mark, if they don't/can't/won't make it right we can pull the hardware off and move on. I know yours would be a lot more involved to do that than mine. But, in the end, what are the options.
Am hoping to get or make the opportunity to load the new software in the bike this evening. Might even have time to take it for a spin if the weather stays warm enough to make it an effective test. If not will try and steal an hour to run it out tomorrow afternoon.
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Just aborted the attempt to begin finding out if the revised map supplied by Zippers would help or not. The map wouldn't load.
I have the SmartLink software v. 2006.16.3.0 . No mention was made nor question asked about software versions. This software reports the supplied revised map as an incompatible version though.
Can not find a link to download Smarklink itself on either the Zippers or the Thundermax websites. Don't know whether the map supplied is corrupted or whether one or the other of us are working with a software outdated enough it won't read the file created on the other's platform. The supplied revised map has an .slk file extension. If anyone knows version an extension information for the SmartLink software don't hesitate to share.
To summarize; after the hope of progress there was none. As to why, I know nothing; other then that delay continues. Have already forwarded the revised map back to Zippers with a description of the problem. Will wait again. Not for a lot longer. But will wait again.
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Just aborted the attempt to begin finding out if the revised map supplied by Zippers would help or not. The map wouldn't load.
I have the SmartLink software v. 2006.16.3.0 . No mention was made nor question asked about software versions. This software reports the supplied revised map as an incompatible version though.
Can not find a link to download Smarklink itself on either the Zippers or the Thundermax websites. Don't know whether the map supplied is corrupted or whether one or the other of us are working with a software outdated enough it won't read the file created on the other's platform. The supplied revised map has an .slk file extension. If anyone knows version an extension information for the SmartLink software don't hesitate to share.
To summarize; after the hope of progress there was none. As to why, I know nothing; other then that delay continues. Have already forwarded the revised map back to Zippers with a description of the problem. Will wait again. Not for a lot longer. But will wait again.
Don, do you know anyone that tunes the TMAT? Why wait for another canned map when you can get the TMAT tuned to your motor specifically. I know it costs even more that way. But that TMAT ain't worth crap if you don't have an accurate base map to start. What better starting point is a properly Dynotuned engine? I'm not believing that this thing is self tuning. To me, it's more like it's more for self-correcting and maintaining a properly supplied/tuned base map. Garbage in = garbage out! ;) Hoist! 8)
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Don, do you know anyone that tunes the TMAT? Why wait for another canned map when you can get the TMAT tuned to your motor specifically. I know it costs even more that way. But that TMAT ain't worth crap if you don't have an accurate base map to start. What better starting point is a properly Dynotuned engine? I'm not believing that this thing is self tuning. To me, it's more like it's more for self-correcting and maintaining a properly supplied/tuned base map. Garbage in = garbage out! ;) Hoist! 8)
Howie, if I knew of such an option I'd have bailed on Zippers'/Kitzmiller's sad excuse for assistance and just tried to work through that alternative about a light year ago. I don't look forward to or especially enjoy the self flaggelation that is being the level of asshole necessary to shame or annoy them in to assistance. In fact I rather resent it when someone else by their actions or inactions forces me to be an asshole.
Lacking other options, however, they're it. A problem predicated on original promises of capability to begin with and support later if necessary that are wholly separate from reality.
Paying someone else to do another tune isn't the issue here really. Getting some ignition and fuel management system working right is. I say "some" because if I end up hiring a tuner to make the bike run right I'll be hiring someone to tune a SERT or a PC. I'm certainly not above making a mistake the first time. But I'll be damned if I'm throwing good money after bad.
Zippers either will make this work in what will be from now short order or they won't. If they won't they'll either offer to buy the system back because they couldn't make thier own system work in a hardware environment of their own parts or they won't offer to buy it back. If they can't make it work via their own efforts, however, I'll be running away like the girl whose just heard the words "I promise, I'll pull out, really; and yes, I love you too." If I'm going to be further taken advantage of while getting my pants yanked down it's sure as hell not going to willingly come from dudes at a bike shop.
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Fully agree Don. Most people don't change engine components all that often. With that, nothing wrong with just tuning the bike to the setup and be done with it. I'm looking forward to getting the bike back and then an excellent tune from a reputable tuner, and be done with mine for awhile. If I do more work after the w.....ty is up, I'll just have him retune it. Sorry you're going thru this. I have a feeling John Golden is in your near future! ;) Hoist! 8)
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TwolaneRider,
Man I am so sorry to see you go through this. I REALLY hope Fitz and Kitz can make this right.
Have you talked to Mike (DC Fireman)? Mike's a good guy and he is in deep with Fitz and those guys. Sometimes he helps board members out, but bear in mind that he is also a staunch defender of Zippers. So if you post about your negative experiences with them he may not. That's what happened to me. I can tell you first hand that the LAST thing you want to do is piss Zippers off by speaking your heart and mind. If you do, they will just ignore you like they ignore me and your issue will NEVER get resolved. I sure hope you don't end up waiting as long as I have been, with no contact, and no idea of what is going on.
Mark
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Just aborted the attempt to begin finding out if the revised map supplied by Zippers would help or not. The map wouldn't load.
I have the SmartLink software v. 2006.16.3.0 . No mention was made nor question asked about software versions. This software reports the supplied revised map as an incompatible version though.
Can not find a link to download Smarklink itself on either the Zippers or the Thundermax websites. Don't know whether the map supplied is corrupted or whether one or the other of us are working with a software outdated enough it won't read the file created on the other's platform. The supplied revised map has an .slk file extension. If anyone knows version an extension information for the SmartLink software don't hesitate to share.
To summarize; after the hope of progress there was none. As to why, I know nothing; other then that delay continues. Have already forwarded the revised map back to Zippers with a description of the problem. Will wait again. Not for a lot longer. But will wait again.
Don,
Try this site to download the latest version of SmartLink: http://www.thunder-max.com/Support/Instructions/FuelInjectionSoftware.aspx The Zipper's download page shows as "unavailable", but the page I listed works.
It really sucks that you're going through all this hassle. I never tried the TMAT, mostly because I did try the plain T-Max about a year ago and it was a POS from the git-go. Zipper's was never able to get it right, and I eventually returned it for credit under their 30 day return policy. I find all of this to be very disheartening, because Zipper's has had a great reputation for many years relative to their mechanical parts and services. Apparently their mechanical talents didn't translate over to electronics.
Good luck.
Jerry
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TwolaneRider,
Man I am so sorry to see you go through this. I REALLY hope Fitz and Kitz can make this right.
Have you talked to Mike (DC Fireman)? Mike's a good guy and he is in deep with Fitz and those guys. Sometimes he helps board members out, but bear in mind that he is also a staunch defender of Zippers. So if you post about your negative experiences with them he may not. That's what happened to me. I can tell you first hand that the LAST thing you want to do is piss Zippers off by speaking your heart and mind. If you do, they will just ignore you like they ignore me and your issue will NEVER get resolved. I sure hope you don't end up waiting as long as I have been, with no contact, and no idea of what is going on.
Mark
Mark,
That is a really chitty way to run a business, but from what I've experienced myself as well as what I've read here and elsewhere I would have to agree with you that this is how they operate. Obviously they have so much business that they don't care about pissing off current customers, or having the dirty laundry aired all over the internet. If this type of "customer service" is their new norm, they won't last too many more years.
Jerry
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Fully agree Don. Most people don't change engine components all that often. With that, nothing wrong with just tuning the bike to the setup and be done with it. I'm looking forward to getting the bike back and then an excellent tune from a reputable tuner, and be done with mine for awhile. If I do more work after the w.....ty is up, I'll just have him retune it. Sorry you're going thru this. I have a feeling John Golden is in your near future! ;) Hoist! 8)
Karnak and the Ouigi board might agree. I'm lucky to have a decent option the other way also right here in town. And hardware to swing either way thanks to Chip and MJ. Will definitely go with John if he'll be in town any time between now and the departure for Nelson (assuming Zippers continues in the same form they have). He is (very fortunately) feeling good enough after his cardiac work that they're back out working hard again now. The weekends are all scheduled away per their website. But that doesn't mean they might not be home a day or three between weekends some time. One way or the other it'll all work out though.
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TwolaneRider,
Man I am so sorry to see you go through this. I REALLY hope Fitz and Kitz can make this right.
Have you talked to Mike (DC Fireman)? Mike's a good guy and he is in deep with Fitz and those guys. Sometimes he helps board members out, but bear in mind that he is also a staunch defender of Zippers. So if you post about your negative experiences with them he may not. That's what happened to me. I can tell you first hand that the LAST thing you want to do is piss Zippers off by speaking your heart and mind. If you do, they will just ignore you like they ignore me and your issue will NEVER get resolved. I sure hope you don't end up waiting as long as I have been, with no contact, and no idea of what is going on.
Mark
Mark,
Appreciate the kind words. Mike and I were chatting on the phone just last week about other things. While doing so I did intrude on our friendship to ask if he'd attempt to put a bug in someone's ear. The issue is Zippers' and not Mike's though. I've no intention of putting him in the middle in any way. If Zippers had actually performed in time prior in any kind of an acceptable fashion asking someone to intercede would never even be a consideration; nor should it have been. But I did ask.
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Don,
Try this site to download the latest version of SmartLink: http://www.thunder-max.com/Support/Instructions/FuelInjectionSoftware.aspx The Zipper's download page shows as "unavailable", but the page I listed works.
It really sucks that you're going through all this hassle. I never tried the TMAT, mostly because I did try the plain T-Max about a year ago and it was a POS from the git-go. Zipper's was never able to get it right, and I eventually returned it for credit under their 30 day return policy. I find all of this to be very disheartening, because Zipper's has had a great reputation for many years relative to their mechanical parts and services. Apparently their mechanical talents didn't translate over to electronics.
Good luck.
Jerry
Thanks Jerry. Appreciate that very much. I wasted 10 minutes looking all over that damn site and never found a good link to download the software. It's dl'ing right now with your assistance. Will finish here and load it up to see what can be done.
Thanks again,
Don
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TwolaneRider,
Man I am so sorry to see you go through this. I REALLY hope Fitz and Kitz can make this right.
Have you talked to Mike (DC Fireman)? Mike's a good guy and he is in deep with Fitz and those guys. Sometimes he helps board members out, but bear in mind that he is also a staunch defender of Zippers. So if you post about your negative experiences with them he may not. That's what happened to me. I can tell you first hand that the LAST thing you want to do is piss Zippers off by speaking your heart and mind. If you do, they will just ignore you like they ignore me and your issue will NEVER get resolved. I sure hope you don't end up waiting as long as I have been, with no contact, and no idea of what is going on.
Mark
Mark
Hope it's OK to call you Mark, I feel we are all friends here.
Let me clear up any misconception about Dawg (DC Fireman)
He IS the most staunch defender of Zippers that I have ever met.
BUT
Discussions of negative or positive experiences with Zippers matter not to Dawg. If someone ask for help and can show where they have been wronged then Dawg will be like stink on poop trying to help right the issue.
Don and I both have talked to Mike about him slipping in the back door at Zippers to find someone that actually gives a damn about the customers that are having T-max issues. But as Don said, this is not Mikes cross to bear but he has agreed to walk in that back door to try.
S
/
B
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That's what happened to me. I can tell you first hand that the LAST thing you want to do is piss Zippers off by speaking your heart and mind.
Mark,
That is a really chitty way to run a business, but from what I've experienced myself as well as what I've read here and elsewhere I would have to agree with you that this is how they operate. Obviously they have so much business that they don't care about pissing off current customers, or having the dirty laundry aired all over the internet. If this type of "customer service" is their new norm, they won't last too many more years.
Jerry
Mark, Jerry, et.al.
You guys perhaps would not be surprised by some of the messages I've received from others over the last week or so as this finally became a more public discussion. I quite frankly was never sure that my experience with them wasn't more personal since I managed to piss Kitzmiller off during my initial parts acquisition. Choosing not to behave at the time like a Lemming with a credit card seemed to get on the gentleman's bad side.
Having been blown off before the only way that had proved effective to get a response was, unfortunately, to reach a level of annoyance or embarassment he finally felt necessary to shut down. Certainly he did try to engage the conversation ever so briefly. But not in a consumer support fashion, just to score points and apparently try to safe a little face. Fortunately his skills aren't anything special in that regard (either).
Seeing and reading of yours and now so many other incidents I see that it is by no means a personal thing though. They're just all too often very bad generally. How terribly unfortunate both for them and for those in their client base. It is most unfortunate for those riders who really don't wrench at all and honestly don't know they might have a problem. They'll simply trust until they grenade. Then they'll never see a bit of assistance after the fact.
The only people that have benefited from this entire affair are those that hadn't bought yet. Among those several messages in the last week or so were also a few in just that category. Our efforts may not have helped ourselves. But others are benefiting by learning of potential headaches they'll just choose to avoid.
I can point out the obvious fact that the company should consider buying back hardware that won't perform as promised. If the revised map proves to be an incomplete success I'm relatively certain that will be an upwind urinary effort though. I bought mine in winter time. It didn't act up until much later. Well beyond 30 days. C'est la vie
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Just aborted the attempt to begin finding out if the revised map supplied by Zippers would help or not. The map wouldn't load.
I have the SmartLink software v. 2006.16.3.0 . No mention was made nor question asked about software versions. This software reports the supplied revised map as an incompatible version though.
Can not find a link to download Smarklink itself on either the Zippers or the Thundermax websites. Don't know whether the map supplied is corrupted or whether one or the other of us are working with a software outdated enough it won't read the file created on the other's platform. The supplied revised map has an .slk file extension. If anyone knows version an extension information for the SmartLink software don't hesitate to share.
To summarize; after the hope of progress there was none. As to why, I know nothing; other then that delay continues. Have already forwarded the revised map back to Zippers with a description of the problem. Will wait again. Not for a lot longer. But will wait again.
Don, I didn't see if anybody posted it to you or not, here is a link to the latest software...
http://www.thunder-max.com/software/smlivzippers2006_17_9.zip
it is newer than what you have, maybe it'll help...
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Don, I didn't see if anybody posted it to you or not, here is a link to the latest software...
http://www.thunder-max.com/software/smlivzippers2006_17_9.zip
it is newer than what you have, maybe it'll help...
Thanks very much. It had been cited up above and I just finished dl'ing and installing. The revised map file Zippers supplied did load with the new software. So that's taken care of.
Haven't yet waded through it to see all the differences yet. The first things I notice, however, are front cyclinder advance retarded by 5 degrees from 12 to 7. Rear cylinder advance retarded by 3 degrees from 12 to 9. Base ignition timing is retarded from 13 to 6 degrees.
I incrementally tried retarding time up to a max of 4 degrees. Stopped at that point and began trying to get help because retarding it that far was gutting the bike's acceleration from highway cruise speeds and lower end torque. Admittedly, I've not yet studied the rest of this map. But if the primary differences are solely timing retardation I'll feel a real hit in performance with this new map. I'd already been to the point that the bike ran stronger in stock trim with just the 575 cam addition than it was with all the "103 Muscle Kit" work running with the retarded timing. So to say I'm concerned at this point is an understatement. One doesn't buy a new top end to "improve" on things to only accomplish running smaller with lower fuel economy.
There may be more work done in this map. So I'm not damning the effort at all until I know more. Will take time to ride it a fair bit tomorrow afternoon and get an idea what if any progress has been gained so far.
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Thanks very much. It had been cited up above and I just finished dl'ing and installing. The revised map file Zippers supplied did load with the new software. So that's taken care of.
Haven't yet waded through it to see all the differences yet. The first things I notice, however, are front cyclinder advance retarded by 5 degrees from 12 to 7. Rear cylinder advance retarded by 3 degrees from 12 to 9. Base ignition timing is retarded from 13 to 6 degrees.
I incrementally tried retarding time up to a max of 4 degrees. Stopped at that point and began trying to get help because retarding it that far was gutting the bike's acceleration from highway cruise speeds and lower end torque. Admittedly, I've not yet studied the rest of this map. But if the primary differences are solely timing retardation I'll feel a real hit in performance with this new map. I'd already been to the point that the bike ran stronger in stock trim with just the 575 cam addition than it was with all the "103 Muscle Kit" work running with the retarded timing. So to say I'm concerned at this point is an understatement. One doesn't buy a new top end to "improve" on things to only accomplish running smaller with lower fuel economy.
There may be more work done in this map. So I'm not damning the effort at all until I know more. Will take time to ride it a fair bit tomorrow afternoon and get an idea what if any progress has been gained so far.
Yup that was my problem, I'd retarded the timing so far it wasn't worth riding it......
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Wow,
I am sure dissapointd that Zippers is taking a lot of open flack from some of our members here. This is a downright shame that this laundry is getting aired openly. I am not happy to see this (for the first time in a week I can see a bit thank goodness), since I know the product so well, and never see this stuff on any of my install, or mods. I still feel someone is making a mistake.
Of no consequence to the tuning are Feuling lifters, cam plate, oil pump and Zippers push rods. The map loaded is ZEEBMGBCXE082106 and was the map supplied in the ECM when delivered from Zippers."
DID ZIPPERS DO THE BUILD, AND THE INSTALL, INCLUDING THE LIFTERS AND PUSHRODS. DID THEY PHYSICALLY DO IT I MEAN, OR DID YOU HAVE A LOCAL SHOP GET INVOLVED, OR DID YOU DO IT YOURSELF. I AM SUSPECT IF IT WAS PARTED TOGETHER OUTSIDE OF ZIPPERS FOR A COUPLE REASONS, EXPLAINED LATER.
"Currently it's just a base load of the map with no alterations other than three degrees retarded With that and AFR again at 13:1 across the board it is behaving as we've discussed here."
ILOOKED AT THE BASE MAP YOU POSTED, THE TIMING VS ENGINE SPEED, AND NOTE TWO THINGS. I AM LOOKING AT AN UNMODIFIED MAP, AND SINCE YOU ARE LINKED AT THE TIME, I CAREFULLY LOOKED AT THE 24 LISTED PARAMETERS, WHICH ALSO LOOK GREAT.
"Zippers "103 Muscle" kit. The map loaded is ZEEBMGBCXE082106 and was the map supplied in the ECM when delivered from Zippers."
THE FIRST THING I CHECKED, AND YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE, WAS OCCASIONALLY CHECK FOR UPDATES. THE NEWEST UPDATE FOR YOUR INSTALL WAS DONE IN APRIL 07. IT IS MAP NUMBER 040907. IT IS THE SAME PREFIX NUMBERS. WHEN I WENT TO CHECK THE BACKGROUND ON THE MAP NUMBER YOU SUPPLIED, THIS NEWEST ONE HAD BEEN AN OPTION. IF INTERNAL CHANGES ARE MADE, THIS IS ALWAYS THE FIRST PLACE TO CHECK. SO, HERE IS ONE ISSUE OVERLOOKED. THE NEXT YOU FORGOT WAS THE CHECK FOR UPDATES ON THE SOFTWARE. YOU ARE USING AN OLD VERSION, AGAIN THE NEW ONE IS 2007-17-11. YOU NEED TO OCCASIONAL SEE IF ZIPPERS ADDED ANYTHING, AND THIS IS CLEARLY THE FIRST PLACE YOU NEED TO BE GOING. ZIPPERS SOFTWARE AND HARDWARE AND VERSION REVISIONS ARE CLEARLY LABELED LINKS WITHIN THE PROGRAM.
THE ABOVE CONCERNS ME. YOU INDICATED YOU MADE SOME CHANGES TO THE TIMING, ALTHOUGH THE MAP YOU POSTED DOES NOT SHOW THIS. THIS MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT TO THE TUNER, WE MUST STAY WITH WHAT YOU HAVE FIRST. ANYWAY, WE ARE GOING TO TOSS THE MAP YOU CURRENTLY HAVE IN THE BIKE. I HAVE TRIED TO HELP YOU STEP BY STEP, BUT YOU ARE GLOSSING OVER IT. YOU ALSO STATED SOME CHANGES IN THE NEW MAP ZIPPERS SENT YOU. WELL UNLESS YOU HAVE THE WRITING MAP SOFTWARE, YOU CANNOT SEE ANY OF THIS. YOU HAVE END USER, AND THAT IS ALL YOU NEED IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, SINCE YOU HAVE A GOOD BASE TO WORK FROM. HOWEVER, I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE CHANGES YOU MAY HAVE MAP TO THE TIMING ARE FLAT WRONG, AND FOR THEM TO HAVE TOOK, YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN THE TELLTALES FOR THE PRIMARY SETTING VS THE CHANGED SETTINGS. THESE I DO NOT SEE.
I AM NOT TRYING TO BUST YOUR CHOPS, BUT YOU NEED TO LET SOMEONE WHO REALLY UNDERSTANDS THE UNIT DO THIS. I FIND 2 MANY PEOPLE MAKE IT SO COMPLICATED, AND READ INTO IT MUCH MORE THAN IS THERE, AND FRANKLY SOME ALWAYS SEEM TO COMPLETELY MISS A CRITICAL STEP IN THE PROGRAMMING. HEY, IT HAPPENS, BUT IT HAPPENS WAY TO MUCH. THE RESULT OF THESE ERRORS ARE NOT ZIPPERS, THEY SPEND SMALL FORTUNES ON EACH MAP. iT AIN'T NO WALK IN THE PARK FOR THE DEVELOPMENT SIDE, AND THEY WON'T RELEASE IT UNTIL IT WORKS. LOOK, I BRIEFLY WENT THROUGH THE SAME THING. IT WASN' ZIPPERS, IT WAS MY DEALER.
I also looked at the attahment you sent Zippers on the fax. You made numerous errors on that submission, and I hope Zippers is not trying to make a special map to compensate for what you submitted. It won't work. Also, the fact that you say you cannot load the new map they sent is not possible, unless trying to do it in the wrong sequence. For example, number 8 on the fax, I know TPS is flat wrong, 52 aint gonna be it, its more like 11%. You also said you were at 13.1 across the board. Well that is not true also, unless you are running in an open loop, this fixed number will be so, but in closed loop, it is a basis reference and has nothing to do with the actuals going on behind the scenes, unles the CLM is not activiated. And then the stored offsets, we talked of this before, but you did not respond specifically on what you were doing in there.
So, I can tell you a couple of other things also. The adjustable rods installed in the bike, are they Zippers? If so, with your confriguration, there is a special setting on those, vs what the regular Harley mech thinks, they thik they know better. It makes a big difference.
YOU AND YOUR FOLLOWERS CAN MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT ZIPPERS, AND HOW 'BAD' THEY ARE ALL YOU LIKE, BUT I AM TELLING YOU, IT IS NOT THE CASE. WHEN A PRODUCT THAT INSTALLS ON YOUR BIKE IS TO BE DONE BY YOURSELF, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND IT FULLY FIRST. IT ELIMINATES THE DYNO REQUIREMENTS BECASUE ZIPPERS SPENT THE TIME TO MAKE THE PERFECT MAPS FOR SPECIFIC COMBINATIONS. BUT ONE MUST PAY ATTENTION.
FOR ALL THE BITCHING ON THIS BOARD, I TALK WITH HUNDREDS MORE THAT ARE HAPPY AS CLAMS, BUT THE PROBLEM, AND THIS IS A BROAD SWEEP, IS ALWAYS AS THEY SAY 'PILOT ERROR', NOT THE MANUFACTURER. THIS IS NOW GOTTEN TO BE THE MOST CHILDISH THREAD ON THE BOARD. I FOR ONE, DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO ZIPPERS. YOU GUYS ARE CLEARLY OVER THE TOP, AND MY HELP CLEARLY SEEMS TO BE GOING AWAY FROM A TECHNICAL SIDE, AND BTW, I DID THIS WITH ONE PAINFUL EYE, NO CHOICE BECASUE THIS THREAD IS OUTTA CONTROL. PLEASE STOP and ADDRESS THE SPECIFICS ANOTHER WAY.
Rhino(oneeyedronfornow)
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Mark
Hope it's OK to call you Mark, I feel we are all friends here.
Let me clear up any misconception about Dawg (DC Fireman)
He IS the most staunch defender of Zippers that I have ever met.
BUT
Discussions of negative or positive experiences with Zippers matter not to Dawg. If someone ask for help and can show where they have been wronged then Dawg will be like stink on poop trying to help right the issue.
Don and I both have talked to Mike about him slipping in the back door at Zippers to find someone that actually gives a damn about the customers that are having T-max issues. But as Don said, this is not Mikes cross to bear but he has agreed to walk in that back door to try.
S
/
B
S/B,
Dawg's gotta be top shelf all the way. He should be nominated for Sainthood. Anyone that takes our issues and walks in the back door to try and find someone at Zippers who gives a damn about helping us out is number one in my book. The only reason I have not called and asked him for help with my long drawn out issue is that I don't want him pissed at me either.
I sure hope TwoLane Rider gets his issue squared away. No one should have to put up with this.
Mark
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S/B,
Dawg's gotta be top shelf all the way. He should be nominated for Sainthood. Anyone that takes our issues and walks in the back door to try and find someone at Zippers who gives a damn about helping us out is number one in my book. The only reason I have not called and asked him for help with my long drawn out issue is that I don't want him pissed at me either.
I sure hope TwoLane Rider gets his issue squared away. No one should have to put up with this.
Mark
Mark
He is top shelf.
As far as the nomination for sainthood, that should go to "V".
She's the one that has to live with him.
I agree with you though, no one should have to put up with the B/S you have been thru.
S
/
B
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Jim, very sorry to read that you're suffering too. For a system that's supposed to be good, supported by an extensive library of excellent base maps, and able to adapt from those maps to supply us with an excellent, safe and reliable riding experience it certainly is full of ping sometimes. If one is lucky enough to score well with an accurate implementation via software map you are apparently good to go. Some have reported exactly such.
I've done another day in 100+ degree heat, this time on my usual 98 Octane gas. It still pinks (UK word for it!) like there's no tomorrow. :(
Worse still, it runs WAY too hot. The slightest delay in traffic, and the engine warning light is on, meaning that the head temp is too high. Way too high. In a nutshell, this system is not usable in a hot climate as it stands.
All I'm doing on my vacation is worrying about my engine, and NOT because of my epoxy, which is fine.
Jim
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Mark
He is top shelf.
As far as the nomination for sainthood, that should go to "V".
She's the one that has to live with him.
I agree with you though, no one should have to put up with the B/S you have been thru.
S
/
B
Well lets see what she has to say about that after they get back from their Honey Moon! LOL!!!
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Wow,
I am sure dissapointd that Zippers is taking a lot of open flack from some of our members here. This is a downright shame that this laundry is getting aired openly.
Rhino,
We completely agree that it's a shame that Zippers lack of response or effort, or lack of quality response or effort to so many generated such a discussion. Truly unfortunate.
I appreciate you looking it all over. In the end, however, I see no real suggestions for tuning alternatives. Too bad. Was hoping you'd be more help than Kitzmiller had for so long.
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I've done another day in 100+ degree heat, this time on my usual 98 Octane gas. It still pinks (UK word for it!) like there's no tomorrow. :(
Worse still, it runs WAY too hot. The slightest delay in traffic, and the engine warning light is on, meaning that the head temp is too high. Way too high. In a nutshell, this system is not usable in a hot climate as it stands.
All I'm doing on my vacation is worrying about my engine, and NOT because of my epoxy, which is fine.
Jim
Jim, yours is all fresh hardware and software recently supplied and installed. That's unfortunate you're having this experience, and more so that you're doing do while on your trip.
Fitzmaurice at Zippers had written that the data supplied to them was "good data to work from" so I'm choosing to be optimistic that efforts, once supplied, from them will make a positive difference. I will be trying their revised map this afternoon and will let you know how it's doing. Hopefully the problems are as simply corrected as a map revision. Will let you know how it goes.
You're seeing it with a better grade of fuel than can regularly be had around here too. 91 or 93 as top options at some stations is not uncommon at all. Your experience at 98 is even more worrisome though.
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Jim, yours is all fresh hardware and software recently supplied and installed. That's unfortunate you're having this experience, and more so that you're doing do while on your trip.
Fitzmaurice at Zippers had written that the data supplied to them was "good data to work from" so I'm choosing to be optimistic that efforts, once supplied, from them will make a positive difference. I will be trying their revised map this afternoon and will let you know how it's doing. Hopefully the problems are as simply corrected as a map revision. Will let you know how it goes.
You're seeing it with a better grade of fuel than can regularly be had around here too. 91 or 93 as top options at some stations is not uncommon at all. Your experience at 98 is even more worrisome though.
It sure is - and it's not slight pinking either, imagine a blacksmith hitting his anvil with a hammer, and you'll get some idea! :( We don't get less than 95 Octane here, 98 is less common, but I always use it. I'm more worried about the engine warning light coming on after 5 minutes of stop-start traffic though. We really need to see a revised map for my bike too - and my setup is nothing at all uncommon or unusual!
Bottom line - as is, the TMAT is no use for hot weather.
Jim
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You're seeing it with a better grade of fuel than can regularly be had around here too. 91 or 93 as top options at some stations is not uncommon at all. Your experience at 98 is even more worrisome though.
Is their octane rating the same as ours here in the states?
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It sure is - and it's not slight pinking either, imagine a blacksmith hitting his anvil with a hammer, and you'll get some idea! :( We don't get less than 95 Octane here, 98 is less common, but I always use it. I'm more worried about the engine warning light coming on after 5 minutes of stop-start traffic though. We really need to see a revised map for my bike too - and my setup is nothing at all uncommon or unusual!
Bottom line - as is, the TMAT is no use for hot weather.
Jim
Jim, I'm really sorry your trip is being intruded on by this experience. The detonation noise you describe is much like mine is on hot days too if I were not very very very careful with the throttle. That you're seeing it on such good fuel is really unfortunate.
Enjoy the trip otherwise my friend. Take pictures. At least one friend here will be trying out a revised map to hopefully give you some insight as to what can be gained there.
Ride safe,
Don
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Is their octane rating the same as ours here in the states?
Same worldwide.
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Is their octane rating the same as ours here in the states?
Not exactly. The calculated ratio is just that. A calculated ratio of iso-octanes. But in Europe what's displayed on the pump is something called a Research Octane Number. There's also something called a Motor Octane Number which is a different measure. In North America what we see on the pumps is supposed to be an average of the RON and the MON.
If I remember correctly that means our numbers here (for otherwise identical fuel grades) will be about four points lower. That means if Jim is regularly seeing 98 octane ratings on the pumps he's still seeing better than I can regularly get as it is not uncommon for 91 to be the top available at the regular haunts.
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Jim, I'm really sorry your trip is being intruded on by this experience. The detonation noise you describe is much like mine is on hot days too if I were not very very very careful with the throttle. That you're seeing it on such good fuel is really unfortunate.
Enjoy the trip otherwise my friend. Take pictures. At least one friend here will be trying out a revised map to hopefully give you some insight as to what can be gained there.
Ride safe,
Don
Thanks Don - look forward to your report!
Jim
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Not exactly. The calculated ratio is just that. A calculated ratio of iso-octanes. But in Europe what's displayed on the pump is something called a Research Octane Number. There's also something called a Motor Octane Number which is a different measure. In North America what we see on the pumps is supposed to be an average of the RON and the MON.
If I remember correctly that means our numbers here (for otherwise identical fuel grades) will be about four points lower. That means if Jim is regularly seeing 98 octane ratings on the pumps he's still seeing better than I can regularly get as it is not uncommon for 91 to be the top available at the regular haunts.
I'm humbled and educated! I knew about RON etc., but thought that the Octane displayed at the pumps (RON in our case) was used globally.
Jim
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Same worldwide.
Jim, the numbers are the same worldwide. MON=MON. RON=RON. PON=PON. There are even one or two others I can't think of now. They are calculations and not just arbitrarily defined volume measures (for example). The variation in what's displayed at the pump, however, is that different jurisdictions legislatively or administratively decide which or what combination of those calculations is shown.
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I'm humbled and educated! I knew about RON etc., but thought that the Octane displayed at the pumps (RON in our case) was used globally.
Jim
It really is one of those "distinctions without a difference" thing Jim. Within large geographic markets the numbers are the same. So you always know what you're comparing against. For whatever reason not all large geograhic markets choose to use the same numbers. Wish they did actually. Bit it's not a biggie when compared to important things like Paris's incarceration or Brittany's panties.
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Not exactly. The calculated ratio is just that. A calculated ratio of iso-octanes. But in Europe what's displayed on the pump is something called a Research Octane Number. There's also something called a Motor Octane Number which is a different measure. In North America what we see on the pumps is supposed to be an average of the RON and the MON.
If I remember correctly that means our numbers here (for otherwise identical fuel grades) will be about four points lower. That means if Jim is regularly seeing 98 octane ratings on the pumps he's still seeing better than I can regularly get as it is not uncommon for 91 to be the top available at the regular haunts.
Thanks Don. Knew we used the average of mon & ron here but could not recall (if I ever knew) what the standard in Europe is. If I recall I think we used to use just one but sometime ago (in the seventies?) we changed and started using the average. Am I correct?
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Thanks Don. Knew we used the average of mon & ron here but could not recall (if I ever knew) what the standard in Europe is. If I recall I think we used to use just one but sometime ago (in the seventies?) we changed and started using the average. Am I correct?
You are correct, sir. Used to the the R number, as my Grandaddy owned an Amoco Station for over 25 years, and the "white gas" was then one of the higher numbers...99, if memory serves me. they changed it in the very early 70's, if I recall.
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You are correct, sir. Used to the the R number, as my Grandaddy owned an Amoco Station for over 25 years, and the "white gas" was then one of the higher numbers...99, if memory serves me. they changed it in the very early 70's, if I recall.
Yeah, and Sunoco had 103 (103 Powered!) back then too! ;) Hoist! 8)
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You are correct, sir. Used to the the R number, as my Grandaddy owned an Amoco Station for over 25 years, and the "white gas" was then one of the higher numbers...99, if memory serves me. they changed it in the very early 70's, if I recall.
Just the thought of that change brings back a lot of good memories. I started working at my dad's Texaco station when I was about 11; probably 1972 or so. Working the grease rack and the gas island. Had to carry a milk crate out reach across the windows. I can remember the local jobber bringing new stickers to put on the pumps. Though it didn't mean as much to me as the developing interest in the teen age girls that game in for gas and thought the little kid was "cute."
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Just finished the phone calls and other things I had to get done now. Going out to the garage to clear the software, load the revised map, hope my assessemly skills don't lead to pushrods coming through the seat and skewering my private parts and then riding the bike for awhile this afternoon to exercise and evaluate the revised map. Choosing to be optimistic. Everyone please keep their fingers crossed :2vrolijk_21: .
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Just the thought of that change brings back a lot of good memories. I started working at my dad's Texaco station when I was about 11; probably 1972 or so. Working the grease rack and the gas island. Had to carry a milk crate out reach across the windows. I can remember the local jobber bringing new stickers to put on the pumps. Though it didn't mean as much to me as the developing interest in the teen age girls that game in for gas and thought the little kid was "cute."
Same here, Don...my Grandfather was sort of winding down the business by the time I was old enough to drive in '67, so he went from Pure Oil Company (later Union 76) and a fairly large gas/repair business, to a little two pump Amoco across the street from his old business. I helped out there the summers of 67, 68, and 69 by pumping gas, oil changes, grease jobs, and minor tune ups. Fixed flats, etc. Made 90 cents an hour, plus gas at cost, which was about 13 or 14 cents a gallon, I think. I would take the service truck and go pick up my Granny around lunch time and bring her to work, where she would feed us, then work the register until closing time, smoking cigarettes all afternoon. Credit back then was signing a paper ticket which was kept in a cigar box, then folks would come in on payday and settle up their gas bill for the week. Never had a person not pay their bill...that's just the way people were back then, black or white. Learned not to be afraid of getting a Chilton's book out and figuring out things on a car back then. In the school months, I'd work at the local Western Auto after school and on weekends, as stock boy, tire changer, did some brake jobs, tune ups, water pumps...that kind of stuff. Kept the auto parts stocked and organized, sold Delta Tires. toys and assembling bicycles at Christmas time. Oogle the girls at the drug store next door, where they had cherry cokes, milk shakes, and a grill.
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Just finished the phone calls and other things I had to get done now. Going out to the garage to clear the software, load the revised map, hope my assessemly skills don't lead to pushrods coming through the seat and skewering my private parts and then riding the bike for awhile this afternoon to exercise and evaluate the revised map. Choosing to be optimistic. Everyone please keep their fingers crossed :2vrolijk_21: .
Hope it runs like a scalded dog!!!
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Just finished the phone calls and other things I had to get done now. Going out to the garage to clear the software, load the revised map, hope my assessemly skills don't lead to pushrods coming through the seat and skewering my private parts and then riding the bike for awhile this afternoon to exercise and evaluate the revised map. Choosing to be optimistic. Everyone please keep their fingers crossed :2vrolijk_21: .
Fingers crossed here, Don. Perhaps ballistic shielding is in order...............just to be on the safe side. ;D Can't get that video out of my head when that rider gets hit with one of his pistons. :stars:
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I'd just like to add my .02 now that I've got some miles on:
I put the Zippers TMAT on a SEUC w/stock engine at 985mi. Loaded a base map (#379) and then put on 150mi, 10-20 at a time (to let it tune).
Then added the Kury 'roll yer own' A/C. same map, rode 50mi, 10 at a time.
While waiting for pipes & mufflers to arrive I rode another 200mi.
Added Rinehart slip-ons, still same map(#379), rode 150, 20-30 at a time. Next day, V&H headpipes showed up, put 'em on (forgot to re-initialize) and rode 200, 20 at a time.
Re-initialized later that day & the idle smoothed out.
I live in New Orleans where the ambient air temps have been in the mid 90's with heat index yesterday near 105, we also have high humidity and dew points, 0' elevation (or less)
so at times it's like riding in a blast furnace :-X
I run 93 octane & what I have noticed is this-
oil temps are down an average of 25* (switching to Mobile1 V-Twin this week-end)
drivability is great, got power at 2000rpm in 6th when needed for passing
no noticeable pinging or knocking (radio is off)
I love the way my red Jester runs with the TMAT as I've configured it. (its done the work for me)
I have made NO changes to the map whatsoever, I've just let it do its thing (tune itself)
I know 'your mileage my vary', but for me and the few changes I've made, I'm a happy camper!
So, today - Bourbon St (Johnny Whites) and knock back a few :drink:
Thanks for listening.....
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BayouBiker,
Your story is what everyone is striving for when it comes to Zippers products. However it seems that more often than not, a lot of Zippers customers end up waiting, on hold, in park, or whatever you want to call it, for technical help. I sure am glad we have folks like Rhino over here, and Jerry S. over on the VTF. Those guys understand how the system works and can usually point you in the right direction and help you out. They understand tuning, and timing and FI tweaking. Me, I'm still looking for a screw on a carburator to richen or lean out. It's also nice to have someone like Mike (Dawg) DC Fireman to go through the backdoor for us to try and find Zippers people to help us out too.
TwoLane, my fingers are crossed, and I have said a prayer.
Keep us posted.
Mark
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I'd just like to add my .02 now that I've got some miles on:
Bayou, that's great. We've mentioned before in this thread that some have had excellent experiences. For those that have there is no doubt everyone else wishes them well and envies them their success. Simply working without problem is certainly the easiest, cheapest and happiest solution. Really glad your system is doing so marvelously. Congrats and absolutely hope it does nothing but keeps doing the same.
Unfortunately not everyone is having such a seamless experience. And when we don't it's a pain; like all problems are. That some have had such a difficult time getting effective assistance is a two-fer. Sort of rubbing salt in the original wound.
I just got back from about a four hour ride. Still much the same problem. Had an email from Fitzmaurice at Zippers just following up to which I responded as follows. It effectively summarizes what I saw today so can let the email speak to the day:
Thanks Dan. Literally just walked back in the door from a little over a four hour ride. Just under 220 miles. The firmware version had been updated and is the most current.
Unfortunately still got detonation issues. Had it from the first few miles. Wanted to give the autotuning capability a chance to autotune though so kept on going. Really saw very little difference. I appreciate the effort you put in to trying. Really do. I know Kitzmiller and I each think unfavorably of the other. But I'm not letting an opinion of one color the efforts made by another.
Here's what I had this afternoon. Day was between 85 and 90 all afternoon. Humidity about 45%. Really not a lot of difference from before. I could be cruising at 75 in fifth gear and twist the throttle only moderately, not even hard acceleration, and would get pretty significant detonation. If the throttle was feathered through it could be avoided. But even light to average acceleration would bring it on.
Cruise control on in 6th gear on a slight grade would still bring on a light ping. A long such grade would bring it on more. Cruise control on in 6th gear at 75 mph brought on a little ping once on even flat road.
Attempts at hard acceleration from cruise speeds/RPM brought on detonation that you just have to get out of the throttle for. Especially later in the afternoon as it warmed up a bit more.
Dan, I need an honest analysis at this point. I'm at only a 1000 feet elevation and it's not high summer yet. Leaving in three weeks for a trip that will cross in to high summer in the upper desert of the NW and could see elevations of 10,000 feet or more. If you take a crack at this again will I end up with a serviceable result?
I don't ask this with rancor. I'd prefer the company's support and the product itself were successful. The system working is the easiest and cheapest solution for me. But if we're not very confident it's going to I have to make a change. And I have to do it in short order. Your honest advice is my next step.
Thank you,
Don Carey
Will give Dan a day or two to think about it. Final decision as to maintaining or moving on by first of the week. At this point it is hard to trust the system for the variety of climates that will be part of the upcoming trip. Suggestions to the contrary notwithstanding, however, this entire process is about giving the company the opportunity to get it going (and gauging the effectiveness of doing so). It's just a pretty tame 103 that won't currently run in the summertime. Trying to make that better.
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That sucks Don! Sorry the new map didn't help. Is it running any differently at all? How do check to see if the ECM is working correctly. Maybe it's stuck somehow and not responding to required autotuning changes. I have no idea if that's even possible. Just throwing ideas out there. I've been thru painful electrical issues before and I feel your pain! Hope you get it soon! Hoist! 8)
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Don,
I'm sorry to see that there was no change for the better for you.
A couple of things came to mind for me, and I'm pretty sure you already did them.
Did you clear the IAC offsets?
Did you reinitialize?
Did you let the bike start up cold, NOT USING the AUTO-IAC feature, but instead letting the Auto-tune set the IAC?
Did you run let it warm up un-touched to 289 degress, shut it off with the key, then back on to keep the settings?
I sure hope Fitz-n-Kitz can help you out. I'd hate to see you have to go to a Thunder-Max Tuning center for a custom MAP.
But like I said, don't do anything more to piss 'em off or they will turn their back on you and you'll be left out in the cold too.
Mark
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If your bike is running the same, there is something definitiely wrong. If you installed the new map, and updated the software, you should be running very well. 3 others with your combo have chimed in to me, and they made some changes as an experiment. Then they went back to the beginning as requested.
Anyway, the last response from you was that you could not load the map. That tells me that there is a possible system problem with your computer. That is of course, if you did everything correctly to get where you are now. (me, I think you did not get it to take, but that is just MHO). Sometimes, interference occurs if you are using a virus or blocking program, casues the computer to crash or miss a beat.
I will offer one more suggestion, then I am out of it.
Hookup computer to bike
open Smartlink Software
turn bike on (electrics only)
link bike module to computer
READ module and wait for complete cycle.
LOOK at the top of the maps
What do they say?
Map should read map provided.
MODULE should read the installed MAP
At top of window, it should say end user and a map code.
At top of window, it should also say a seperate map code, as the map you saved. What is it?
If all of the above is checked, and noted and posted, then I would be suspect of
another issue computer related, not letting the TMAX lock to the ECM.
However, if you are certain all of the above is good,
then I admit I am lost.
I have seen this happen a few times, and have overcome it rather quickly,
but for some reason, it's not working for you. This intrigues me and
certainly is giving me a headache. Wish you were closer, we could fix this in
ten minutes. Same for the ride, the autotune will pretty much fix and lock in ten minutes, or a few miles max. The long runs are for learning and tweaking, and the short runs do the same. The key is everytime you start and stop the electrics, it saves that run as a new tweak to the base map. But no matter what, the first start should be close to finished, and certainly not allow pinging. It is a mystery for me at this point if you are POSITIVE the programming etc went properly without a missed step.
Rhino
Bayou, that's great. We've mentioned before in this thread that some have had excellent experiences. For those that have there is no doubt everyone else wishes them well and envies them their success. Simply working without problem is certainly the easiest, cheapest and happiest solution. Really glad your system is doing so marvelously. Congrats and absolutely hope it does nothing but keeps doing the same.
Unfortunately not everyone is having such a seamless experience. And when we don't it's a pain; like all problems are. That some have had such a difficult time getting effective assistance is a two-fer. Sort of rubbing salt in the original wound.
I just got back from about a four hour ride. Still much the same problem. Had an email from Fitzmaurice at Zippers just following up to which I responded as follows. It effectively summarizes what I saw today so can let the email speak to the day:
Thanks Dan. Literally just walked back in the door from a little over a four hour ride. Just under 220 miles. The firmware version had been updated and is the most current.
Unfortunately still got detonation issues. Had it from the first few miles. Wanted to give the autotuning capability a chance to autotune though so kept on going. Really saw very little difference. I appreciate the effort you put in to trying. Really do. I know Kitzmiller and I each think unfavorably of the other. But I'm not letting an opinion of one color the efforts made by another.
Here's what I had this afternoon. Day was between 85 and 90 all afternoon. Humidity about 45%. Really not a lot of difference from before. I could be cruising at 75 in fifth gear and twist the throttle only moderately, not even hard acceleration, and would get pretty significant detonation. If the throttle was feathered through it could be avoided. But even light to average acceleration would bring it on.
Cruise control on in 6th gear on a slight grade would still bring on a light ping. A long such grade would bring it on more. Cruise control on in 6th gear at 75 mph brought on a little ping once on even flat road.
Attempts at hard acceleration from cruise speeds/RPM brought on detonation that you just have to get out of the throttle for. Especially later in the afternoon as it warmed up a bit more.
Dan, I need an honest analysis at this point. I'm at only a 1000 feet elevation and it's not high summer yet. Leaving in three weeks for a trip that will cross in to high summer in the upper desert of the NW and could see elevations of 10,000 feet or more. If you take a crack at this again will I end up with a serviceable result?
I don't ask this with rancor. I'd prefer the company's support and the product itself were successful. The system working is the easiest and cheapest solution for me. But if we're not very confident it's going to I have to make a change. And I have to do it in short order. Your honest advice is my next step.
Thank you,
Don Carey
Will give Dan a day or two to think about it. Final decision as to maintaining or moving on by first of the week. At this point it is hard to trust the system for the variety of climates that will be part of the upcoming trip. Suggestions to the contrary notwithstanding, however, this entire process is about giving the company the opportunity to get it going (and gauging the effectiveness of doing so). It's just a pretty tame 103 that won't currently run in the summertime. Trying to make that better.
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Rhino,
I guess the easiest way to know would be for Zippers to send him a new ECM loaded with the same MAP. If the bike runs well, then yes, it was a bad ECM all along. If the bike still pings and runs like crap, then it probably has to do with matching the build to the MAP tune, correct?
Mark
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My thoughts are not so much on a bad ECM, but TwoLane is the only one that knows the map #'s in his computer and module. Of course, if the maps are distorted or not loading, he can now see that. Then, I would be suspect of the computer he is using. If all else fails, then of course, try a new ECM. But, I would check a variety of things first, like even the connections on the autotune sensors, and make sure that the closed loop module was not only on the computer/map side, but in the bikes module as well. Is there a bad 02 Sensor? etc etc.. These tiny little things, if glossed over, can make a life miserable. I know this, just from my own silly experiences with my rush to judgement on some settings.
Rhino
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If your bike is running the same, there is something definitiely wrong.
Rhino, it's not running "the same." Though it is running much the same. Acceleration isn't quite as sharp as it was before. The ping is slightly less pronounced. Less hard. But still there in all the same ranges. The revision was a step in the right direction. But, unfortunately, only a very very small one. You still can't just ride the bike. If past trends are instructive it'll only be worse on hotter days. So, yes, the revision made a difference. A slight one. But the general problem still exists.
It is a mystery for me at this point if you are POSITIVE the programming etc went properly without a missed step.
Rhino
Absolutely positive. With adamentine certainty. Connections are good, etc etc etc. The problem isn't in the computer, it's in the bike :)
the last response from you was that you could not load the map.
No Rhino, a much earlier response was that the version of SmartLink I had was reporting a file format error and that I didn't immediately find a link to dl the latest version of Smartlink. The software was later downloaded and the newer format file was used without problem.
(me, I think you did not get it to take, but that is just MHO).
Zing, across the bow goes the shot. No, Rhino, the new file loaded to the module. Granted, this IT stuff is difficult for me. I only did systems design and deployment for a few years, troubleshoot some minor systems for Raytheon, Boeing or Thiokol occasionally and worked in PC environments for a decade or so. So this hooking bike to a PC stuff is some deep chit. But I got the cheese to lead the mouse to the PC and I plugged the mouse's tail right in to that Thundermax thingie. The little bastard bit me, but he was in there. File went right in right after I got the rabies shot.
Ok, kidding and "humble opinions" aside; yes the file loaded. EVERYTHING that is supposed to report reports. Connections are fine. Engine assembly was fine. Pushrods were adjusted correctly per Zippers supplied data sheet. In fact ALL appropriate directions from Zippers have been followed to the letter; even when they themselves have been revised. It's all good. It still pings.
However, if you are certain all of the above is good, then I admit I am lost.
I started to write "Hallelujah," rest my tired fingers and just move on. But I do appreciate all the time you took to offer all the points of consideration; no matter how obtuse they might have been. It's the little things that will bite a guy in the ass after all. So any ideas offered really are appreciated.
Rhino, as has been said before, no one doubts that yours is doing well. And that's great. It's just that for some reason others of us aren't having the same experience. Why that seemed to trouble you so is beyond me. You crossed the line a bit from suggesting ideas on the one hand to looking for and pre-supposing end user blame on the other.
You don't need to defend your own experience. Really. I'm happy yours is a seamless usage of the system. Sure as well wish mine was the same.
No matter how effective your usage has been, however, you have to admit that if someone is experiencing a problem they need to know that effective assistance is easily gained from the supplier. That is especially true when the supplier and the product are as proprietary as is this system and the system in question is primarily responsible for keeping you off the side of the road.
We've really only got one source for help. With the prospect of being on the road in the middle of no where ahead of you that source must be reliable.
That being so the BIG issue here has never been the hardware. I still think that if implemented correctly this system would be the nuts. I don't think it's a hardware problem at all; I'd bet 103Thunder's left nut that it's software. But the two become one when support for either comes from one place. In my case, and unfortunately in the case of others, that support has been at times either difficult to get, ineffective or both.
Rhino, support issues aren't a problem when the system works great. When it works great you don't need the after the fact support. It's far easier to praise someone when you don't have to test them.
To summarize though, I've still got ping. With having done all the right things I've still got ping. I'm not a novice with the technology nor with the mechanical side. I'm also smart enough to know what I'm not familiar with and ask for help. Which is why help was requested of Zippers for further more sophisiticated responses or revisions in the map. But I've still got ping...
Have already received a response from Fitzmaurice with timing alternatives to try myself on top of what his revision offered. Most are steps I'd gone through before with the old map. But I'll gladly try it one more time with the revised map just because giving them every opportunity to make it right is the right thing to do.
Fitzmaurice is now making an effort. That is a profound improvement on the company representative's performance previously. Whether the effort is successful or not is yet to be seen. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. And I've still got ping.
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Don,
I'm sorry to see that there was no change for the better for you.
A couple of things came to mind for me, and I'm pretty sure you already did them.
Did you clear the IAC offsets?
Did you reinitialize?
Did you let the bike start up cold, NOT USING the AUTO-IAC feature, but instead letting the Auto-tune set the IAC?
Did you run let it warm up un-touched to 289 degress, shut it off with the key, then back on to keep the settings?
I sure hope Fitz-n-Kitz can help you out. I'd hate to see you have to go to a Thunder-Max Tuning center for a custom MAP.
But like I said, don't do anything more to piss 'em off or they will turn their back on you and you'll be left out in the cold too.
Mark
Thanks Mark. Fortunatley only minimal gains in the effort to date. All the latest guidances for startup, clearing and reset, etc etc etc had been done previously and were done again at noon today when the revised map was installed.
Wish it had been a silver bullet. No such luck though.
Visiting a T-Max tuning center isn't a geograhic practicality. It'll either have to work and dial itself in as advertised, do so with company support or be pulled for another option. Reliability on the road is more important than whose ECM is controlling going down the road. The cost of such a custom creation isn't supposed to be part of the TMax/AT package either. Though if geograhy weren't an issue I'd likely give it a try without much thought.
As is it'll either work or it won't. If not the company will have been afforded the opportunity to make it so and efforts will have been expended to help them help me make it so. The efforts will have been real and well intended. After all, it's easer and cheaper to make what I've got go than to have to go again with something else.
If in the end the TMax problem just doesn't resolve they'll be asked if they are willing to buy it back. I assume they'll say no; but I don't know that. Their response to that question will be factored in to my overall evaluation of their response generally. I hope it sorts out. Because I'd prefer to be happy with what I've got and be without worry over it than to change it all out. But change it out I will if that's what's necessary to go securely down the road.
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Rhino,
I guess the easiest way to know would be for Zippers to send him a new ECM loaded with the same MAP. If the bike runs well, then yes, it was a bad ECM all along. If the bike still pings and runs like crap, then it probably has to do with matching the build to the MAP tune, correct?
Mark
Mark, such an offer would have to come from them. Such an offer would of course be factored in any judgement of their overall response. But it is above and beyond normal warranty handling. So it's not my place to request it.
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Granted, this IT stuff is difficult for me. I only did systems design and deployment for a few years, troubleshoot some minor systems for Raytheon, Boeing or Thiokol occasionally and worked in PC environments for a decade or so. So this hooking bike to a PC stuff is some deep chit. But I got the cheese to lead the mouse to the PC and I plugged the mouse's tail right in to that Thundermax thingie. The little bastard bit me, but he was in there. File went right in right after I got the rabies shot.
Maybe you should stick to computers.
yes the file loaded. EVERYTHING that is supposed to report reports. Connections are fine. Engine assembly was fine. Pushrods were adjusted correctly per Zippers supplied data sheet. In fact ALL appropriate directions from Zippers have been followed to the letter; even when they themselves have been revised. It's all good. It still pings.
Rhino, as has been said before, no one doubts that yours is doing well. And that's great. It's just that for some reason others of us aren't having the same experience. Why that seemed to trouble you so is beyond me. You crossed the line a bit from suggesting ideas on the one hand to looking for and pre-supposing end user blame on the other.
Since I have been involved in many installs and tweaks for the systems, 99% were operator error. Just goin by what I have experienced on numerous installs on the phone.
You don't need to defend your own experience. Really. I'm happy yours is a seamless usage of the system. Sure as well wish mine was the same.
Not defending, mine is a non issue, and everyone elses ultimately runs well after a tweak if at all, yours is a sticky point.
No matter how effective your usage has been, however, you have to admit that if someone is experiencing a problem they need to know that effective assistance is easily gained from the supplier. That is especially true when the supplier and the product are as proprietary as is this system and the system in question is primarily responsible for keeping you off the side of the road.
And I have taken it upon myself to be a samaritan for the company, and help where neccessary. So I don't need the sidebar commentary, especially from you.
We've really only got one source for help. With the prospect of being on the road in the middle of no where ahead of you that source must be reliable.
That is overstated, dont you have AARP?
That being so the BIG issue here has never been the hardware. I still think that if implemented correctly this system would be the nuts. I don't think it's a hardware problem at all; I'd bet 103Thunder's left nut that it's software. But the two become one when support for either comes from one place. In my case, and unfortunately in the case of others, that support has been at times either difficult to get, ineffective or both.
I think you should be happy they are even talking with you at all. You and your little group of followers having the same type of problem, well, that don't compute either.
Rhino, support issues aren't a problem when the system works great. When it works great you don't need the after the fact support. It's far easier to praise someone when you don't have to test them.
DuH!
To summarize though, I've still got ping. With having done all the right things I've still got ping. I'm not a novice with the technology nor with the mechanical side. I'm also smart enough to know what I'm not familiar with and ask for help. Which is why help was requested of Zippers for further more sophisiticated responses or revisions in the map. But I've still got ping...
Have already received a response from Fitzmaurice with timing alternatives to try myself on top of what his revision offered. Most are steps I'd gone through before with the old map. But I'll gladly try it one more time with the revised map just because giving them every opportunity to make it right is the right thing to do.
That's nice, hope that does something for you.
Fitzmaurice is now making an effort. That is a profound improvement on the company representative's performance previously. Whether the effort is successful or not is yet to be seen. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. And I've still got ping.
You talk to much and spew big words, and describe little. Before Zippers will even consider buying it back, there is a long road of anaylsis that will include a trip to the factory to let them sort it out. I for one, am very very interested in the outcome, because it will be made right. I want to know what was wrong, so everyone can learn from this one about the mysterious ping that won't go away. Me, I would be pulling it down ASAP and take a look at some vitals that may be a contributing factor. But you already said everything is perfect on the install didn't you. Hope you took pictures.
Rhino
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You talk to much and spew big words, and describe little. Before Zippers will even consider buying it back, there is a long road of anaylsis that will include a trip to the factory to let them sort it out. I for one, am very very interested in the outcome, because it will be made right. I want to know what was wrong, so everyone can learn from this one about the mysterious ping that won't go away. Me, I would be pulling it down ASAP and take a look at some vitals that may be a contributing factor. But you already said everything is perfect on the install didn't you. Hope you took pictures
Hey Scot, how was the ABQ trip? Any good road stories? Bill, is Anne all packed for the Nelson trip yet. Spider, how's your dad doing? And how about those Mets?
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TwoLaneRider,
Just a suggestion here. It's a difficult one, but I know it can be done. If I'm way out of line, tell me to go have a cup of "Shut the Heck up", and I will. When I was having my ORIGINAL Marelli issues (which were very similar to yours in that regardless of what I did, the bike ran like crap) over a year ago, I made a "telephone appointment" with Dan Fitz. It took me two whole days of clearing my calendar and waiting by the phone for him to call, but eventually I finally did get to speak to him.
Anyway, make this appointment with the sole purpose of having him walk you through everything live time. Set your phone up with a hands free set, and have the bike cold and hooked up to the PC. If you have another PC, log onto the internet in case he needs to e-mail you a new adjusted MAP. This way he can tell you how to adjust the flux-capacitor, change the di-lithium crystals, and reverse polarize the whatchamacallit, and do it all direct and live. That's what we did. The bad news is after all that he never did get the bike to run decent, and I had to leave it with a tuner who understood the T-Max software. But that saga is for another day
Anyway, give that idea a thought. And if you can't get Danny Fitz on the phone, maybe Rhino might be able to give you live phone tech support. I hope my suggestions don't cause problems on the board or piss more people off. I'm not trying to stick my nose in other peoples lives and business, I'm just trying to help TwoLane get his issue resolved.
Anyway, like I said, if you want me to pull this post and delete it, let me know and I will.
Mark
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TwoLaneRider,
Just a suggestion here. It's a difficult one, but I know it can be done. If I'm way out of line, tell me to go have a cup of "Shut the Heck up", and I will. When I was having my ORIGINAL Marelli issues (which were very similar to yours in that regardless of what I did, the bike ran like crap) over a year ago, I made a "telephone appointment" with Dan Fitz. It took me two whole days of clearing my calendar and waiting by the phone for him to call, but eventually I finally did get to speak to him.
Anyway, make this appointment with the sole purpose of having him walk you through everything live time. Set your phone up with a hands free set, and have the bike cold and hooked up to the PC. If you have another PC, log onto the internet in case he needs to e-mail you a new adjusted MAP. This way he can tell you how to adjust the flux-capacitor, change the di-lithium crystals, and reverse polarize the whatchamacallit, and do it all direct and live. That's what we did. The bad news is after all that he never did get the bike to run decent, and I had to leave it with a tuner who understood the T-Max software. But that saga is for another day
Anyway, give that idea a thought. And if you can't get Danny Fitz on the phone, maybe Rhino might be able to give you live phone tech support. I hope my suggestions don't cause problems on the board or piss more people off. I'm not trying to stick my nose in other peoples lives and business, I'm just trying to help TwoLane get his issue resolved.
Anyway, like I said, if you want me to pull this post and delete it, let me know and I will.
Mark
Hi Mark, no problem with the idea. If they thought they could impart something different in real time that isn't accurately detailed in the written directions I'd be more than willing to listen. No problem at all.
As is all the parts have been on and off to check connections, continuity across every connector has been verified, a spare o2 sensor has been used in each of the pipes, all linking and monitoring functions have been verified, maps checked and compared before and after loads, etc etc etc. That was all done before I ever tried to get support from the company.
The latest versions of the written directions supplied by the company were used including the document supplied last night with the revised map. So while I am absolutely certain the map is loaded, links are established and communication is ongoing, etc etc etc I am perfectly willing to listen to any other idea they might have. Have said exactly that before.
The current email pending to Fitzmaurice basically asks if any other ideas might be beneficial. Since it's their product and their familiarity with it I'd hope they'd share any such ideas if they've been beneficial previously. When you did this was there any part of the setup/installation you were walked through that was undocumented?
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You and your little group of followers having the same type of problem, well, that don't compute either.
Ron, hope you're not aiming that at me. I'm not anyone's follower, but I can assure you that the pinking problems I have are very real, as is the continual overheating. I am grateful for the help you gave me, and I know that the map I have is loaded properly, and - except for the low end slight richening that you took me through - unmodified by me. Computers are my business, so there's nothing on the computing side I got wrong.
My bike is simple - stock 110", K&N air filter, HD touring mufflers on V&H true dual headers. In hot weather, if I open the throttle wide, the bike pinks like crazy, even a few minutes stuck in slow traffic and my engine light comes on, and the muffler for the rear cylinder has gone gold. I have 2200 miles on this setup, long enough for the TMAT to learn, surely - but the bottom line is the bike pinks and runs WAY too hot. That just is not right, is it?
Jim
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When you did this was there any part of the setup/installation you were walked through that was undocumented?
No, it was basically following the same directions, nothing new or undocumented. To a low tech kind of guy like me it was nice having them explain what every step was and why it was important to do it in sequence. Jeez I hope you get this thing resolved soon. I've been in your shoes with Zippers so I know the level of high dollar, high expectation, and high frustration that you are dealing with.
Good Luck
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Quote from: Rhino on Yesterday at 11:24:13 PM
You and your little group of followers having the same type of problem, well, that don't compute either.
Damn!
The cows have come home.
Hell has froze over.
A follower of TwoLane. (OMG, my reputation has gone down the crapper)
Lets set the record straight.
I don't follow no stankin pingin motorsycle.
But I do respect the mans efforts to get it right!
My take on the T max situation is this.
As a potential customer of the T max system on my Frontier or any of the other bikes I own, I decided to go to the horses mouth.
At Myrtle Beach I talked to Danny Fitzmaurice about how installation and follow up support would work for me if I purchased a T max. My decision after that conversation was that I needed to stay away from his product unless I was willing to move to Maryland or real close to a T max tuning center. Neither of those choices are an option to me.
So I passed on the T max system.
I have the utmost respect for people that have computer knowledge.
On a scale of 1 - 10, with 10 being the most knowledgeable and 1 being a computer dummy I would rank my computer skills at about a 1.75.
At a 1.75 ranking, I'm thinking there are many more out there just like me that know as little as I do about this stuff.
Knowing how little I know about the subject and knowing how much it seems to require to know how to deal with the T max is the main reason I passed on the system.
Reminds me of a conversation with Brian (Hogasm) at Myrtle Beach. He said he had heard T man was scared to even try the T max. At that time I thought that was a strange statement but now with hindsight I have to agree.
I am to!
Good luck to all!
S
/
B
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I feel like George Kennedy in Airplane, continuing to stick my head in the cockpit door....
I feel your pain and wish you a speedy resolution to your problems.
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Quote from: Rhino on Yesterday at 11:24:13 PM
You and your little group of followers having the same type of problem, well, that don't compute either.
Damn!
The cows have come home.
Hell has froze over.
A follower of TwoLane. (OMG, my reputation has gone down the crapper)
Lets set the record straight.
I don't follow no stankin pingin motorsycle.
But I do respect the mans efforts to get it right!
My take on the T max situation is this.
As a potential customer of the T max system on my Frontier or any of the other bikes I own, I decided to go to the horses mouth.
At Myrtle Beach I talked to Danny Fitzmaurice about how installation and follow up support would work for me if I purchased a T max. My decision after that conversation was that I needed to stay away from his product unless I was willing to move to Maryland or real close to a T max tuning center. Neither of those choices are an option to me.
So I passed on the T max system.
I have the utmost respect for people that have computer knowledge.
On a scale of 1 - 10, with 10 being the most knowledgeable and 1 being a computer dummy I would rank my computer skills at about a 1.75.
At a 1.75 ranking, I'm thinking there are many more out there just like me that know as little as I do about this stuff.
Knowing how little I know about the subject and knowing how much it seems to require to know how to deal with the T max is the main reason I passed on the system.
Reminds me of a conversation with Brian (Hogasm) at Myrtle Beach. He said he had heard T man was scared to even try the T max. At that time I thought that was a strange statement but now with hindsight I have to agree.
I am to!
Good luck to all!
S
/
B
I agree Chip. It seems you need to know too much about computer programs, and have too much involvement in trying try to tweak or correct this thing, for me. I just want my bike tuned properly by an expert on a Dyno, and forget it. This thing is way overmarketed as a simple, plug-and-play device, that magically tunes itself. If so many people are causing their own issues with the installation and adjustment of this device, it must not work as well, or be as simple as they claim it is. It's wrong for one expert here to downplay other member's problems, or blame the end user, to defend the unresponsive manufacturer! Our members have real issues here and the mfr. is being difficult in their support and responsiveness. They should not be chastised by another member who minimizes their problem in support of said vendor. As the "site expert" of the TMAT system, you should have more consideration of these member's problems. It's not your problem, so if you don't want to be involved, don't! But if you do get involved, you should be more supportive and understanding of them instead of chastising them! JMO! Hoist! 8)
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I agree Chip. It seems you need to know too much about computer programs, and have too much involvement in trying try to tweak or correct this thing, for me. I just want my bike tuned properly by an expert on a Dyno, and forget it. This thing is way overmarketed as a simple, plug-and-play device, that magically tunes itself. If so many people are causing their own issues with the installation and adjustment of this device, it must not work as well, or be as simple as they claim it is. It's wrong for one expert here to downplay other member's problems, or blame the end user, to defend the unresponsive manufacturer! Our members have real issues here and the mfr. is being difficult in their support and responsiveness. They should not be chastised by another member who minimizes their problem in support of said vendor. As the "site expert" of the TMAT system, you should have more consideration of these member's problems. It's not your problem, so if you don't want to be involved, don't! But if you do get involved, you should be more supportive and understanding of them instead of chastising them! JMO! Hoist! 8)
Well said Hoist. Here, have a cold one on me. :drink:
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...
Fitzmaurice is now making an effort. That is a profound improvement on the company representative's performance previously. Whether the effort is successful or not is yet to be seen. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. And I've still got ping.
Man, you have much more patience than I do. I'd dump the POS. As for Zippers, I can't say a lot - my only exposure was a couple of calls to them to talk about a Thundermax. Even so, I sat on hold for 20 minutes or more each time, and frankly thought the reps I talked to were condescending to the point of being dismissive about my questions. I know some of you on this thread have had good experiences with them, but when I get red flags up front, I walk.
bc
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I have one more piece of diagnostics to try that may at least narrow down the problem. As you can tell, I am sharing a lot of frustration, and can't get a grasp on it.
If I am correct, you had at one time mentioned that you added a power commander and a tune on this bike, and noted that it ran fine.
Well, is it possible the sensors are bad on the Autotune? Before anything, I would try the following before tearing into it again. Disable the sensors, and set the AFR's in override? for 12.5 or richer across the board and take it for a ride. If i am not mistaken, disabling the closed loop from the module may do this, but I cant read enough to go over that detail. Perhaps this process of elimination will help, and at least feed the motor the extra fuel.
At least you could discover if the AFR metering side is actual hampering the flow inadvertantly. A 02 sensor can go bad, or, it can get coated, and send erroneous signals to the TMAX.
Rhino
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Well, the plot thickens. This morning I went out to start my bike, and it will not fire on the rear cylinder at all. It has fuel, it has a spark, swapped the plugs, but nothing.
Got it hauled to the dealer tech area at the rally by a breakdown truck, their first reaction? Non standard ECM so your warranty is void.....
So, here I am 2500 miles from home, I don't speak the language, no bike, and no vacation.... If I discover that this is a problem with the TMAT, I'm going to be a little annoyed.
Ron, do you know any circumstances under which the TMAT will "turn off" the rear cylinder on a bike when it's stone cold?
Jim
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Well, the plot thickens. This morning I went out to start my bike, and it will not fire on the rear cylinder at all. It has fuel, it has a spark, swapped the plugs, but nothing.
Got it hauled to the dealer tech area at the rally by a breakdown truck, their first reaction? Non standard ECM so your warranty is void.....
So, here I am 2500 miles from home, I don't speak the language, no bike, and no vacation.... If I discover that this is a problem with the TMAT, I'm going to be a little annoyed.
Ron, do you know any circumstances under which the TMAT will "turn off" the rear cylinder on a bike when it's stone cold?
Jim
Jim, this sounds like the "trip from hell". Glad your JB Weld fix is holding up. Shame about the TMAT. Did you carry your original ECM with you? Probably a stupid question. I'm sure you would have tried swapping it. If you do have it, maybe you can pick up a PC III and throw it on with a canned map, so you can continue your trip. This TMAT thing is appearing to be more trouble than it's worth. Good luck Jim! Hoist! 8)
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Thanks Howie. No, didn't bring the original ECM, because I'd have had to bring the O2 sensors too, and if I'd fitted them, the ECM would have been throwing up errors because the active valves on the Air intake and exhause have been disconnected...
Jim
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Thanks Howie. No, didn't bring the original ECM, because I'd have had to bring the O2 sensors too, and if I'd fitted them, the ECM would have been throwing up errors because the active valves on the Air intake and exhause have been disconnected...
Jim
That's right, I forgot about your Flappers! Can you get another TMAT overnighted to you for exchange back to Zippers? Sounds like with all the issues you're having, that's the least they can do. You haven't had it in that long and run a stock engine. Maybe they can exchange this unit and provide a better map with it at the same time. Good luck Jim. Hoist! 8)
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That's right, I forgot about your Flappers! Can you get another TMAT overnighted to you for exchange back to Zippers? Sounds like with all the issues you're having, that's the least they can do. You haven't had it in that long and run a stock engine. Maybe they can exchange this unit and provide a better map with it at the same time. Good luck Jim. Hoist! 8)
Overnighted to the south of Spain might be taxing them a bit, IF they were easily contactable..... :(
Jim
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I've been in your shoes with Zippers so I know the level of high dollar, high expectation, and high frustration that you are dealing with.
Good Luck
That's just it Mark, I don't think asking that the bike be rideable in the summer time is a "high expectation." I honestly don't believe that simply asking for the product to work as advertised, or expecting easily supplied support if it does not, is an expectation above or beyond the regular call of duty. Without intending to speak for anyone I'm pretty sure that this group of fellow travellers we're now a part of would all say the same. No-bad-pinging isn't a high expectation :nixweiss: .
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Overnighted to the south of Spain might be taxing them a bit, IF they were easily contactable..... :(
Jim
It's a 'Global" environment today Jim. Getting one there shouldn't be a problem. Getting in touch with, and getting something out of Zippers, that might be more difficult! Hopefully they're wanting this issue resolved and to go away, so they they have incentive to cooperate and help. Oh, who the hell am I kidding! ::) Hoist! 8)
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Ron, hope you're not aiming that at me. I'm not anyone's follower
Don't sweat it Jim. The fellow travellers' bike issues are enough to worry about. No sense in asking for more. I don't envy your position at all though. For me a swap back is easy. Your 07 with it's stock 07 o2 sensors and the European exhaust additions makes it actually a fair bit of work.
Good luck and enjoy the trip Jim.
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It's a 'Global" environment today Jim. Getting one there shouldn't be a problem. Getting in touch with, and getting something out of Zippers, that might be more difficult! Hopefully they're wanting this issue resolved and to go away, so they they have incentive to cooperate and help. Oh, who the hell am I kidding! ::) Hoist! 8)
Well, we don't know that the TMAT is faulty, of course. I don't know what would be the result of a faulty O2 sensor either, though I doubt it would do this) and of course Zippers give no warranty on those in any case. But it does seem mighty coincidental that the rear cylinder has been running hotter than Hell, and now it won't run....
Jim
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Well, we don't know that the TMAT is faulty, of course. I don't know what would be the result of a faulty O2 sensor either, though I doubt it would do this) and of course Zippers give no warranty on those in any case. But it does seem mighty coincidental that the rear cylinder has been running hotter than Hell, and now it won't run....
Jim
Jim, making the assumption that what Kitzmiller told the group here quite some time is correct (and there's no reason to think that it wasn't) a faulty o2 sensor simply takes the unit back to open loop. Like having the Thundermax by itself. If the base maps are as good as they suggest to us they'd be in the sales literature that sales the Thundermax by itself gaining driveabilty issues as you're describing still should not be the expectation then.
On that note, however, one of the several PM messages I've received while this conversation has been ongoing described an issue that would "go away" when the autotune function was turned off. The man apparently had a bad autotune module or some other issue that would cause it to "learn" improperly. Whatever the issue was his bike ran decently with the autotune disabled and progressively worse when re-enabled.
That was a legitimate suggestion I'd not considered before. I have just now gotten back to the house after trying it this morning. Of course mine only had a couple hundred miles of "learning" on it after the new installation yesterday. So didn't expect much general difference. But did want to at least isolate one set of hardware from the other and see if data provided by the module might be negatively impacting it in any way. It still pings.
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Of course I didn't bring the TMAT cable with me on the trip either...... :-[
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Well, we don't know that the TMAT is faulty, of course. I don't know what would be the result of a faulty O2 sensor either, though I doubt it would do this) and of course Zippers give no warranty on those in any case. But it does seem mighty coincidental that the rear cylinder has been running hotter than Hell, and now it won't run....
Jim
Went back to find the "other" post. Had missed it scanning the first time through. Very sorry for the even greater hassle right in the middle of your trip.
Even though the tech staff said no warranty are they at least willing to work on it? Or are you without both warranty and service options?
Certainly hope it's something simpler like a bad wire, coil, injector or a chafed injector harness. Really don't even want to think about scenarios in which your detonation was so extreme you'd burned a piston or other such horrors.
If it ran on both cylinders when you shut it off last night and didn't when you started it this morning the odds are far more likely the problem is an easily serviceable one. Again, sorry this intruded on your trip. Good luck.
Of course I didn't bring the TMAT cable with me on the trip either...... :-[
Ok, THAT was just dumb :huepfenlol2: ! (he says with love)
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I have one more piece of diagnostics to try that may at least narrow down the problem. As you can tell, I am sharing a lot of frustration, and can't get a grasp on it.
If I am correct, you had at one time mentioned that you added a power commander and a tune on this bike, and noted that it ran fine.
Well, is it possible the sensors are bad on the Autotune? Before anything, I would try the following before tearing into it again. Disable the sensors, and set the AFR's in override? for 12.5 or richer across the board and take it for a ride. If i am not mistaken, disabling the closed loop from the module may do this, but I cant read enough to go over that detail. Perhaps this process of elimination will help, and at least feed the motor the extra fuel.
At least you could discover if the AFR metering side is actual hampering the flow inadvertantly. A 02 sensor can go bad, or, it can get coated, and send erroneous signals to the TMAX.
Rhino
Rhino, if you disable the sensors (basically taking it out of AutoTune Mode) then the AFR Override isn't an option.
Don, I'm surprised nobody has recommended this yet, but I did it on mine, while it didn't help me any, it might you. Get the bike good and heated up, then with the Laptop connected, (you are using a laptop I hope cause this won't work with a desktop, atleast not without a really long extension cord), setup the monitoring function and save it to a file, then go for a ride with the laptop in your tourpak, create whats happening and then go back and playback the file, it takes a while cause the playback is viewing something like 8 samples/second, also this information may help Zippers determine your problem (assuming they can) if you send them the file. Ya gotta really pay attention during the playback but after looking at it for a bit you can see where you shift and accel and blah blah blah, it'll all make sense before long. Just make sure you turn on monitoring for major functions like AFR, Timing, TP........anything you think might be helpful.
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Thanks 2L - fingers crossed...
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WOW
This is crazy!
And I have been worried about rebooting my Commadore 64! :nixweiss:
And I thought I had problems!
Good luck!
S
/
B
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Rhino, if you disable the sensors (basically taking it out of AutoTune Mode) then the AFR Override isn't an option.
Don, I'm surprised nobody has recommended this yet, but I did it on mine, while it didn't help me any, it might you.
Thanks Fr8, even though the capability exists in the software Zippers hadn't suggested it. I pulled such a log earlier with the original map. It did take a while to study it the first time and begin to understand what was being read.
Used it for some of the timing changes I made at one point working with the unrevised original map. The upside was that some of the changes were better than just across-the-board general, they could be a bit more targeted. The downside was that if I retarded timing enough to even get close to getting rid of the detonation the bike was neutered. So detuned that if the options were leaving it that way or throwing away the Thundermax you'd have to throw away the Thundermax.
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Jim....sincerely hope that the fix is a simple one for your problem. Seems that the dealer there could at least eliminate the things that would obviously not let the cylinder fire, even if they can't do anything with the Tmax. At least you'd be at a point of knowing whether the problem is in fact the ECM, then take whatever steps needed to get the bike on the road again for the rest of your trip. I know this is a nighmarish experience for you, and I hate that you are going through this on your Holiday... :(
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I have one more piece of diagnostics to try that may at least narrow down the problem. As you can tell, I am sharing a lot of frustration, and can't get a grasp on it.
If I am correct, you had at one time mentioned that you added a power commander and a tune on this bike, and noted that it ran fine.
Well, is it possible the sensors are bad on the Autotune? Before anything, I would try the following before tearing into it again. Disable the sensors, and set the AFR's in override? for 12.5 or richer across the board and take it for a ride. If i am not mistaken, disabling the closed loop from the module may do this, but I cant read enough to go over that detail. Perhaps this process of elimination will help, and at least feed the motor the extra fuel.
At least you could discover if the AFR metering side is actual hampering the flow inadvertantly. A 02 sensor can go bad, or, it can get coated, and send erroneous signals to the TMAX.
Rhino
Rhino, some of this may have already been covered. Speaking only to my case I have a spare o2 sensor and have swapped it in and out of both holes. Never altered monitored data in the data stream at all.
The bike had a Power Commander on it a long time ago. Well before any of this was going on. No o2 sensors at that time either. The bike is an 05 so the sensors were added with the TMax installation.
Another member had written in PM of a problem with his bike that only happened while his autotune module was enabled. It would run progressively worse the longer he rode it. He could turn of the autotune function and the bike was better each time.
That's a different problem than I was experiencing. On mine smoother idle, easier starting and other subtle variations were gained with riding. All indicative of the autotune functioning (it seemed to me). But just this morning I did give that a try. Ran it in 80 degree temps with the module disabled. Still pinged. At 80 degrees ambient it was always much lighter. So it was light this morning. But the ping at 80 degrees ambient temp with the new revised map was only slightly less than it was originally. So disabling the autotune module didn't give us anything different either.
I did not, however, richen it up even more as you'd suggested. Was already more than a little surprised that this much pinging was still going on with the base 13:1 setting unaltered (with the exception of what the system itself might be doing). 13:1 isn't close to lean. I'd hate to run it even richer. Will certainly give it a try just for purposes of instruction. To see if it makes any difference. But can't see leaving it that way for the long term.
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The downside was that if I retarded timing enough to even get close to getting rid of the detonation the bike was neutered. So detuned that if the options were leaving it that way or throwing away the Thundermax you'd have to throw away the Thundermax.
Oh I know that feeling........but don't throw it away, find someone that has a setup closer to their basemap and sell it to em.......
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Jim....sincerely hope that the fix is a simple one for your problem. Seems that the dealer there could at least eliminate the things that would obviously not let the cylinder fire, even if they can't do anything with the Tmax. At least you'd be at a point of knowing whether the problem is in fact the ECM, then take whatever steps needed to get the bike on the road again for the rest of your trip. I know this is a nighmarish experience for you, and I hate that you are going through this on your Holiday... :(
That could be a nightmare scenario if the tech department is either a bit lazy or a bit behind the technology curve TC. Without the cable you can't read codes from the module. Even with the cable you can't read the module without the software. I've got the cable and the software on a flash stick in a zip lock in one of the saddlebag lid pouches.
Even with that, however, I could completely understand some service department denying to load my software on their PC to read the system. It would not be an unreasonable denial. That's why I also kept the stock ECM stored in the bottom of the saddlebag. To make the swap back if necessary.
So many techs anymore are trained to only follow the codes. Without the data report they really just don't have a clue what to do. And will then look for excuses not to do anything. Depending on the initiative of the service staff the circumstance Jim is in right now could be a very ugly one.
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Oh I know that feeling........but don't throw it away, find someone that has a setup closer to their basemap and sell it to em.......
:bananarock:
Fr8, I just had a moment of clarity :bulb: . I'm hauling extra data cables, software, ECMs and tools for a "what if" scenario. Fighting a problem that doesn't seem to be going away. Giving it a real and legitimate effort. Hoping that someday I'm never where Jim is right now. Still without an effective resolution from the company. Not riding the bike as much the last few weeks as a result of it all. And not enjoying the experience one bit.
Good lord, talk about landing fixation.....
It could be time to abort this approach and find a different runway.
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Well, the plot thickens. This morning I went out to start my bike, and it will not fire on the rear cylinder at all. It has fuel, it has a spark, swapped the plugs, but nothing.
Got it hauled to the dealer tech area at the rally by a breakdown truck, their first reaction? Non standard ECM so your warranty is void.....
So, here I am 2500 miles from home, I don't speak the language, no bike, and no vacation.... If I discover that this is a problem with the TMAT, I'm going to be a little annoyed.
Ron, do you know any circumstances under which the TMAT will "turn off" the rear cylinder on a bike when it's stone cold?
Jim
Good grief. I sure feel for you Jim. That nightmare scenario is exactly what kept me from taking the plunge with the TMAT even before all this started about the pinging. Sure hope you get that sucker running well enough to get you through your trip. Best of luck. :2vrolijk_21:
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Good grief. I sure feel for you Jim. That nightmare scenario is exactly what kept me from taking the plunge with the TMAT even before all this started about the pinging. Sure hope you get that sucker running well enough to get you through your trip. Best of luck. :2vrolijk_21:
You're a smart man Jerry. Clarity and several morning beverages (it's going to be a GOOD FRIDAY) have me envying you right now. But the fog has cleared. I'm off instruments and have realized that flying under the hood isn't fun when all you want is clear air and VFR. Simple is its own reward sir. And no one has ever said I'm not simple ??? . I think it's time to change runways and take the easy approach. It's not as if we didn't try hard to crater her in.
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That could be a nightmare scenario if the tech department is either a bit lazy or a bit behind the technology curve TC. Without the cable you can't read codes from the module. Even with the cable you can't read the module without the software. I've got the cable and the software on a flash stick in a zip lock in one of the saddlebag lid pouches.
Even with that, however, I could completely understand some service department denying to load my software on their PC to read the system. It would not be an unreasonable denial. That's why I also kept the stock ECM stored in the bottom of the saddlebag. To make the swap back if necessary.
So many techs anymore are trained to only follow the codes. Without the data report they really just don't have a clue what to do. And will then look for excuses not to do anything. Depending on the initiative of the service staff the circumstance Jim is in right now could be a very ugly one.
Know what you're saying, Don...if the computer doesn't tell them things to check, they're often as lost as a fart in a whirlwind...
But if they could verify fire to the chamber, and if needed ensure the FI is spraying fuel in there, at least it would be a start. God forbid any mechanical bits are laying around in places they don't need to be... :nervous:
The thing now is that the pucker factor on the road has just gone up exponentially, even if there is some resolution to the particular problem at hand.
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Know what you're saying, Don...if the computer doesn't tell them things to check, they're often as lost as a fart in a whirlwind...
But if they could verify fire to the chamber, and if needed ensure the FI is spraying fuel in there, at least it would be a start. God forbid any mechanical bits are laying around in places they don't need to be... :nervous:
The thing now is that the pucker factor on the road has just gone up exponentially, even if there is some resolution to the particular problem at hand.
TC, too many kids in the dealerships don't know how to check spark with their tongue if it didn't tell them how to do it with a code reader. They're trained to only do what's directed. And they're more scared of doing it wrong then trying something new. There is no trial and error resolution when trial is afraid of error (or just doesn't have the initiative to push his hairy ass out of the way).
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Don
I have a suggestion.
Check your mail.
The answer could be in the box.
or that brown truck pullin up in your driveway!
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Know what you mean, Jerry. It was on the top of my list of things to accumulate for next year's project...in fact, the only reason I don't have it already is that I had just got a decent tune on the PCIII back last November, and I also didn't feel like pulling the pipes off to have the bungs welded in for the sensors. Me thinks I'll stick with the PCIII and keep a copy of the MAP on a CD in my owners manual in the TP. At least if the PCIII takes a crap, I can limp in on my ECM flash for the SE pipes I had on prior to delivery, get another one, load the MAP, and be back on the road in an hours time, if I can get my hands on a computer.
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It could be time to abort this approach and find a different runway.
Well glad I could be of some assistance, you'd be surprised how quickly that stuff can come off the bike. :2vrolijk_21: Then go riding, sounds like you've got some frustration to get rid of.....I know I certainly feel much better now that mines gone........endless nights in the geerage, making changes to maps hoping it'll all go away........
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Well glad I could be of some assistance, you'd be surprised how quickly that stuff can come off the bike. :2vrolijk_21: Then go riding, sounds like you've got some frustration to get rid of.....I know I certainly feel much better now that mines gone........endless nights in the geerage, making changes to maps hoping it'll all go away........
Yup, I'll bet he does. We chastise the moco for "field testing" their products but this is ridiculous!
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Well, the plot thickens. This morning I went out to start my bike, and it will not fire on the rear cylinder at all. It has fuel, it has a spark, swapped the plugs, but nothing.
Got it hauled to the dealer tech area at the rally by a breakdown truck, their first reaction? Non standard ECM so your warranty is void.....
So, here I am 2500 miles from home, I don't speak the language, no bike, and no vacation.... If I discover that this is a problem with the TMAT, I'm going to be a little annoyed.
Ron, do you know any circumstances under which the TMAT will "turn off" the rear cylinder on a bike when it's stone cold?
Jim
Jim,
Hate to even suggest this, but if you have fuel and spark you need to check compression. If the bike is running as hot as you indicate and detonating severely, you may have burned a valve or piston. I hope I'm wrong and it turns out to be something simple.
Jerry
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Don
I have a suggestion.
Check your mail.
The answer could be in the box.
or that brown truck pullin up in your driveway!
Big brown truck paid me a visitation last night Chip. Didn't see the package until a couple hours ago. But, it's heeeere :2vrolijk_21: .
Thanks again. Very much appreciated. A pair of o2 bung plugs arrived in the mail today also that I'd ordered to have just-in-case. With the Nelson trip's departure deadline looming I don't have the option of two and three day cycles of several different suggestions. Pretty well have to hop one way or the other right away.
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Jim,
Hate to even suggest this, but if you have fuel and spark you need to check compression. If the bike is running as hot as you indicate and detonating severely, you may have burned a valve or piston. I hope I'm wrong and it turns out to be something simple.
Jerry
Had the same fear Jerry. Was crossing fingers, toes and other bendable bits of anatomy that the bike firing on both cylinders when he shut off last night and then suddenly losing a cylinder on startup this morning might indicate something other. But it certainly can't be dismissed. It's well in to the evening for him now so hopefully he'll have posted good news by our AM. Just hate to see him having to deal with all so far from home though.
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Yup, I'll bet he does. We chastise the moco for "field testing" their products but this is ridiculous!
Have done those garage hours testing, tinkering, reading and trying as Fr8 described Jerry. The biggest overall surprise was how little difference it all made. One would think that that something would make more than a small dent. I could make the bike run bad. Could detune it to something like a stock Evo and still never lose the ping. Fuel, spark, whatever, nothing ever shook the ping.
Fitzmaurice at Zippers has been making a regular contact now. A contact that is appreciated, directed and would hopefully be eventually successful. He's now speaking of a path of more "surgical" steps to try and narrow it down and get it resolved. With the Neslon trip deadline looming that might or might not be practical just because we can't yet know how long it would take. That being so I just offered him what seemed to me to be a fair alternative.
Suggested that with the trip upcoming I'd not push the deadline and would reinstall an alternative now. Get it tuned and be ready for the trip. I've got to be in the DC area occasionally. Further suggested that I'd ride the bike back to let them have it for a day sometime later this summer. They could do a quick re-install of the TMax and then dyno tune the bike and system together.
I asked that such a dyno tune be on their dime as part of the process to make the system work as advertised. I'd be supplying the travel, my own time (so far and to get it there) and the test-mule-problem-child for them to add to their learning curve to hopefully help other riders.
It seems a fair middle ground. Hopefully first of the week will see a positive response.
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Jim,
Hate to even suggest this, but if you have fuel and spark you need to check compression. If the bike is running as hot as you indicate and detonating severely, you may have burned a valve or piston. I hope I'm wrong and it turns out to be something simple.
Jerry
Jerry...hadn't read thoroughly enough to realize Jim had checked the fuel already. Certainly hope it is something else, but this does not bode well :nervous: I'll be optimistically awaiting Jim's post when it gets figured out.
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Wow, alot of emotion in this thread! I feel for those of you that are experiencing problems with your T-Max AT and hope you get your issues resolved. I have had mine installed for 117 engine hours so far and have not experienced any of the difficulties that have been described.
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Wow, alot of emotion in this thread! I feel for those of you that are experiencing problems with your T-Max AT and hope you get your issues resolved. I have had mine installed for 117 engine hours so far and have not experienced any of the difficulties that have been described.
hdfr...In the interest of me trying to figure things out, did Zippers do your complete build, install, and tune in house, or did you get the parts and either do it yourself or have a shop do the work. The point I'm interested in is whether they tuned the bike after the motor was built or provided you with a preloaded MAP?
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Wow, alot of emotion in this thread! I feel for those of you that are experiencing problems with your T-Max AT and hope you get your issues resolved. I have had mine installed for 117 engine hours so far and have not experienced any of the difficulties that have been described.
Odd how that worked out ::) . Started with a group of guys doing some curb racing and sharing what turned out be be an issue common among them, trying to get some support, eventually getting some and then hoping for resolution. No one saying that others hadn't done better. Just that they hadn't been so lucky. Then..... ???
HDFR, glad yours is performing ok. The numbers were seeing with some kind of issue on the site, relative to all the site members using it, is by itself a little worrisome. That at least a few are experiencing the same kind of problem is even a bit more so. Perhaps the silver lining to that cloud would be that sorting out one would be a silver lining to sorting out several. I've offered a hands on opportunity to sort out one. Hopefully it'll work out.
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Odd how that worked out ::) . Started with a group of guys doing some curb racing and sharing what turned out be be an issue common among them, trying to get some support, eventually getting some and then hoping for resolution. No one saying that others hadn't done better. Just that they hadn't been so lucky. Then..... ???
HDFR, glad yours is performing ok. The numbers were seeing with some kind of issue on the site, relative to all the site members using it, is by itself a little worrisome. That at least a few are experiencing the same kind of problem is even a bit more so. Perhaps the silver lining to that cloud would be that sorting out one would be a silver lining to sorting out several. I've offered a hands on opportunity to sort out one. Hopefully it'll work out.
My bike is running great. No pinging, no retarded lag no nothing. I think the technical term is raped ape. What's wrong with the rest of you yahoos out there? You must be doing something wrong because my bike is running great. You all must be a bunch of newbies that don't know what you're doing. Rookies!
Vroom Vroom.
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I've got to be in the DC area occasionally. Further suggested that I'd ride the bike back to let them have it for a day sometime later this summer. They could do a quick re-install of the TMax and then dyno tune the bike and system together.
I asked that such a dyno tune be on their dime as part of the process to make the system work as advertised. I'd be supplying the travel, my own time (so far and to get it there) and the test-mule-problem-child for them to add to their learning curve to hopefully help other riders.
It seems a fair middle ground. Hopefully first of the week will see a positive response.
Well I'd be a might bit offended if ya didn't let us know when you'd be happenin out this way. I'm bout 45 minutes from Zippers..........
Now ya see, my problem was that they don't have a map close enough to my setup (just for review, 96" upgraded to a HD Stage I 103") and trying to work it all out with them I suggested I bring it in and they Dyno it there, then they'd have a map for this new for 2007 setup and we'd all be happy. The tech I was dealing with recommended I not, as they are a bit rough on the test mules on the Dyno, not like I don't beat on it enough but I took his advice and we continued trying, to no avail. So I hope it works out for ya......and if it gets me a chance to shake your hand and buy ya a Soda (sorry, I don't drink that fire water stuff) then all the better.
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It would be wise to ignore anything typed at this keyboard tonight. It's Mexican night ya know.
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My bike is running great. No pinging, no retarded lag no nothing. I think the technical term is raped ape. What's wrong with the rest of you yahoos out there? You must be doing something wrong because my bike is running great. You all must be a bunch of newbies that don't know what you're doing. Rookies!
Vroom Vroom.
Well of course it runs fast. Anything with jugs that hot wants to go fast just get off of itself :huepfenlol2: !
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Well I'd be a might bit offended if ya didn't let us know when you'd be happenin out this way. I'm bout 45 minutes from Zippers..........
Now ya see, my problem was that they don't have a map close enough to my setup (just for review, 96" upgraded to a HD Stage I 103") and trying to work it all out with them I suggested I bring it in and they Dyno it there, then they'd have a map for this new for 2007 setup and we'd all be happy. The tech I was dealing with recommended I not, as they are a bit rough on the test mules on the Dyno, not like I don't beat on it enough but I took his advice and we continued trying, to no avail. So I hope it works out for ya......and if it gets me a chance to shake your hand and buy ya a Soda (sorry, I don't drink that fire water stuff) then all the better.
If I'm close will definitely let you know. You can count on it.
Did the "test mule" excuse sound a bit thin to you or did the gentleman sound sincere? Really, can they offer a dyno tuning service that is so abusive they shouldn't really offer it? It's not as if all the combination of bikes for which they have maps could have come from bikes they own. So there has to be some dyno tuning of consumer bikes from which the map library is drawn. Perhaps I'm still being too much the cynic. But that one seems a bit evasive, seems a bit too much like wanting to avoid free dyno time.
Hey, but then again maybe not. It's not Mexican night but it is :drink: night. So my own analyses might be a bit askewwwww. That's alright though. Finished cleaning the hot tub this afternoon. All fresh and running good (and NO PING!). FWB coming over in a bit and she's bring munchies and movies. The evening it is planned :2vrolijk_21: .
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JIM - Sorry I have not responded earleir but life is a bit miserable now with the eyesight..It is interfereing no doubt. But as to the problem you arew having, I am truly sympathetic, and wish I had input on that one. Never had the YMAX shut down a cylinder though. GIMME A BREAK< NORMALLY I CAN SPELL
TWO - I tried a couple times to get Fitz on the phone, but we palyed phone tag, I had wanted to throw somethng by him re the 'problem'.
If the Module is set to an override position, like you said the stock is 13.1 in the box, it does not mean you are at 13.1 at all. Like the RT, it means nothing until the VE's are adjusted (that is RaceTune only). Internally, the TMAX is constantly changeingnthe AFR's and the targets, each time, it is making a change to match what the map/module says to do. It is basic, but i will get to the point. A ;py ogf control is on 2 screens that one wants to leave alone, but the point is, go head and take the stoxk map, and label it something else. (save as)
Now play with it by doing the following as a test. This map you now change to, make sure you simpky erase the learned settings. And now change the timing across the board, DOWN 2 points from the stock map setting. Hit savve. You should now see the new line, while the stock line stays in place as a reminder. Dont erase that.
Now go to override on the module settings page.. Engage override. Change the fuel to 12.0 Save again. Now, make sure that this map, namwed whatever, is ready to load, and connect it up, load it, initialize it, 3 times, and then read it and make sure blah blah blah.
OH, start it up and rife around the block. Is the ping still there? I think not. The next step is to stay with the end user maps and make some tweaks. Don't put a lot of emphasis opn the AFR's you are seeing. Ot is not a real number. The monitoring screens will show you that. But one step here, try it out.
Later
rHINO
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Jim,
Not sure if there is anyway to get your Stock ECM sent to you, but if you take some wire ties after disconnecting the thundermax you can wire tie down the wide band cables out of the way. Leave the wide bands in place. There are only 2 fault codes that will be given when you dont have the narrow band sensors connected and they clear each time you restart the bike its U xxxx code. The only thing with this is that it is annoying at night, but that is it its a yellow warning on the dash in the speedo. I run this way all the time when I use the Daytona Wego IID system to check my air fuel ratios on the bike. You won't hurt anything and it might allow you to enjoy some of your vacation if you can get the bike to fire on the rear cylinder.
Sorry the holiday is going the way it is for you, hopefully it will get better soon,
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hdfr...In the interest of me trying to figure things out, did Zippers do your complete build, install, and tune in house, or did you get the parts and either do it yourself or have a shop do the work. The point I'm interested in is whether they tuned the bike after the motor was built or provided you with a preloaded MAP?
I live relatively close to Zippers and had them do the complete install and tune.
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Odd how that worked out ::) .
HDFR, glad yours is performing ok. The numbers were seeing with some kind of issue on the site, relative to all the site members using it, is by itself a little worrisome. That at least a few are experiencing the same kind of problem is even a bit more so. Perhaps the silver lining to that cloud would be that sorting out one would be a silver lining to sorting out several. I've offered a hands on opportunity to sort out one. Hopefully it'll work out.
Don,
I agree that the problem seems to be common and a solution for one should solve the problem for many.
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Did the "test mule" excuse sound a bit thin to you or did the gentleman sound sincere?
No it wasn't thin, in fact it was the way he said it that made me agree with him.
OK, now before I throw some ideas out and offend someone....FWB??
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I live relatively close to Zippers and had them do the complete install and tune.
Still looking for trends and other data that might be instructive. In this thread and in the now large volume of PMs that have come in from other gentlemen sharing their experiences think I'm seeing one constant.
No one who has said they actually had their bike specifically tuned was having a problem. I understand this will likely be a much smaller cohort than those that just bought the hardware and installed it as we're told we can do. But are there any viewers to this thread that have had their bike tuned by Zippers or other creditable Thundermax tuner who still had a driveability issue?
HDFR, when your bike was tuned at their shop were you given a warning similar to what Fr8trn described about their tuning efforts being dangerous to the bike? When you got the bike did you see any signs of abuse? Or was their care and service of seemingly good quality?
I'm currently of a mind that my latest suggestion to Zippers was a fair one. I put a fair bit of time, with a reasonable level of insight and skill behind it, in to working with the original map. They also offered a revised map which, unfortunately, made only the slightest bit of difference.
From there we might go through many steps. Tuning their product is (apparently) the one panacea solution to correcting their product. Since my travel deadline is near going to Plan B now is really my only alternative. We'd have more time if close to a month hadn't been lost from first phone calls to them to support efforts actually being supplied hadn't been lost. But that's irrelevant now. It still seems (at least to me) a fair suggestion that if I'd make the trip they'd tune the bike to correct the problem (at least one would hope it could be corrected).
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TWO - I tried a couple times to get Fitz on the phone, but we palyed phone tag, I had wanted to throw somethng by him re the 'problem'.
Rhino, thank you for the suggestions. Not to the extent you suggested but I had tried something similar when working with it initially on my own.
Given the time issue before me right now any alternatives worked through are going to potentially push the travel deadline. That's a problem (for me, not for anyone else). Fitzmaurice has offered a suggestion as the next step he wants me to try that will, apparently, be followed by other "surgical" steps. It's something that sounds like it could take awhile.
Since I can't devote all the spare time to sorting out the issue with the Zippers hardware unfortunately it might not even get worked on each day. Nor do we know how effective such a process will end up being. Any "steps" I work through at this point will need to be Fitzmaurice's just because of the time issue at this point. Not that I don't appreciate your later suggestions here. I do. Just would only have the time to even consider riding one horse at a time right now.
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FWB??
oh, Friend With Benefits ::)
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No one who has said they actually had their bike specifically tuned was having a problem.
Twolane, as I stated in an earlier PM to you, I've been experiencing the same pinging problem on my Zipper's 117" kit with ThunderMax. Not running the autotune, just their canned map for this build. I have an appointment on 7/13 with a Zipper's authorized tuner in central Fl, so I'll know then if he can tune it out. I'll have the original ECM and RT in my hip pocket just in case, because if he can't tune it out with the TM, I'm jerking it out right then and there with no hesitation or other deliberation in that regard. I built this motor to ride hard, and I'm tired of pussyfootin' around because I live in a hot climate. Do hope I can keep the TM though...but no regrets if I can't. I'll let you know if he has any success...
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Twolane, as I stated in an earlier PM to you, I've been experiencing the same pinging problem on my Zipper's 117" kit with ThunderMax. Not running the autotune, just their canned map for this build. I have an appointment on 7/13 with a Zipper's authorized tuner in central Fl, so I'll know then if he can tune it out. I'll have the original ECM and RT in my hip pocket just in case, because if he can't tune it out with the TM, I'm jerking it out right then and there with no hesitation or other deliberation in that regard. I built this motor to ride hard, and I'm tired of pussyfootin' around because I live in a hot climate. Do hope I can keep the TM though...but no regrets if I can't. I'll let you know if he has any success...
Right attitude SCRM-R! Got to get it right! It's Only $Money$...And You Can Make Some More!! ;) Hoist! 8)
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Right attitude SCRM-R! Got to get it right! It's Only $Money$...And You Can Make Some More!! ;) Hoist! 8)
Let's see now...where have I heard that? Just got back from a 200 mile ride today...97 degrees...pinging BAD when you roll on the throttle from about 2500 to 3500 rpm's. I'm just tired of it, so I'm gonna see if it can be tuned out without making a eunuch :nervous: out of the motor.
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Let's see now...where have I heard that? :nixweiss:Just got back from a 200 mile ride today...97 degrees...pinging BAD when you roll on the throttle from about 2500 to 3500 rpm's. I'm just tired of it, so I'm gonna see if it can be tuned out without making a eunuch :nervous: out of the motor.
I think it can be tuned out. I'm convinced from all this, that you can't use canned maps in these TMAT's. To me, the TM needs to be properly setup on a Dyno, and then let the AT work in from there. Good luck with your tune. Hoist! 8)
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Twolane, as I stated in an earlier PM to you, I've been experiencing the same pinging problem on my Zipper's 117" kit with ThunderMax. Not running the autotune, just their canned map for this build. I have an appointment on 7/13 with a Zipper's authorized tuner in central Fl, so I'll know then if he can tune it out. I'll have the original ECM and RT in my hip pocket just in case, because if he can't tune it out with the TM, I'm jerking it out right then and there with no hesitation or other deliberation in that regard. I built this motor to ride hard, and I'm tired of pussyfootin' around because I live in a hot climate. Do hope I can keep the TM though...but no regrets if I can't. I'll let you know if he has any success...
I'm in essentially the same position SCRM.
Have spent a fair bit of time trying the logical alternatives we might try ourselves and troubleshooting everything. In to a time crunch now where, even were I so inclined to spend a few weeks further experimenting and exploring and trying various directed options, the time doesn't allow it to happen at this moment.
I will be very interested in your tuning experience. I would not be against keeping the system on the bike. But, like you, if it has to come off it has to come off. No tears because of it. The only important thing is that the bike runs well and does so withing having to continue dinking with it.
The issue you, I and others are experiencing is unfortunately real. It also hasn't bee soluble by the things we'd commonly try. That and all other things being considered in the mix I don't think it's unwarranted to ask the mftr to just tune it. That is allowing them the absolute opportunity to make their system function as promised. I'll supply the half-continental travel at a mutually agreeable schedule and they supply a day (or a half day, or whatever). They can use the experience to benefit many others in their client base (if they're so inclined).
If they can then tune it out that's great. Really would be the ideal answer for them and me. If they can't they'd have to address that at the time. Will just have to see the first of the week if they're willing to stand up and address the problem this way.
Good luck with yours man. Hope it goes well. Will look forward to your before and after report.
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SCRM-R are you coming down to Holly Hill by chance? If you would like to meet up for a beverage or something please let me know.
-harry
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I think it can be tuned out. I'm convinced from all this, that you can't use canned maps in these TMAT's. To me, the TM needs to be properly setup on a Dyno, and then let the AT work in from there. Good luck with your tune. Hoist! 8)
Howie, for many of us that is what this experience seems to be stongly suggesting. Unfortunately that's not the premise the system is sold under.
If that would too often end up being the case then we're in no appreciably different position then with working with a SERT or PC. Still need dyno time/expense to make it work. Some minimal gain after the fact onboard with autotune. But we're seeing now it can't adjust from even their own base map that (at least in my case) was promised to be "very close" and perfectly "good enough to work from."
The real gain was to be the lack of further need for dyno tuning/time/expense. If we don't get that (or at least too many of us don't) we end up with no gain on the tuning/time/expense side and and the addition of a product that might present service hazards on the road should there ever be a failure.
It's not an unfair trade to consider losing the further need for tuning time and expense against the potential service hazards of hardware unfamiliar to the rest of the world. But if you don't get the initial gain it becomes far more difficult to justify the acquired hazard.
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Howie, for many of us that is what this experience seems to be stongly suggesting. Unfortunately that's not the premise the system is sold under.
If that would too often end up being the case then we're in no appreciably different position then with working with a SERT or PC. Still need dyno time/expense to make it work. Some minimal gain after the fact onboard with autotune. But we're seeing now it can't adjust from even their own base map that (at least in my case) was promised to be "very close" and perfectly "good enough to work from."
The real gain was to be the lack of further need for dyno tuning/time/expense. If we don't get that (or at least too many of us don't) we end up with no gain on the tuning/time/expense side and and the addition of a product that might present service hazards on the road should there ever be a failure.
It's not an unfair trade to consider losing the further need for tuning time and expense against the potential service hazards of hardware unfamiliar to the rest of the world. But if you don't get the initial gain it becomes far more difficult to justify the acquired hazard.
That sounds great in theory. But no 2 engines are alike. It relies on a Zippers provided base map to start off with. Why would that map necessarily match a particular motor with it's own characteristics? Maybe by coincidence. If it worked as you say, you shouldn't have to touch it at all after they supply it with a "close enough" map. All these adjustments everyone keeps making, are way too much to ask the average guy to have to do. Trial and error to replace a good Dyno tune? A bike should be tuned and forgotten until another mod is made. If you gotta keep fiddling with this thing in trying to replace a real Dyno tune, it just ain't worth it, IMO!
Hoist! 8)
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SCRM-R are you coming down to Holly Hill by chance? If you would like to meet up for a beverage or something please let me know.
-harry
Harry,
I have an appt. with Jim of Braggin' Rights Dyno at 10:00 a.m. on 7/13. I'm meeting him at Stormy Hill H-D in Clermont...don't know where that is from Holly Hill? After he finishes with it, which I am expecting to take most of the day, I am traveling on down to Brandon to spend the weekend with my brother. My brother doesn't ride, but he has promised to take me to a place called Mons Venus....sounds like a thrill ride, he-he. He said that it would be worth the trip down. ;D If you want to ride over to Stormy Hill on Friday the 13th, I would be pleased to meet you.
Marvin.
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That sounds great in theory. But no 2 engines are alike. It relies on a Zippers provided base map to start off with. Why would that map necessarily match a particular motor with it's own characteristics? Maybe by coincidence. If it worked as you say, you shouldn't have to touch it at all after they supply it with a "close enough" map. All these adjustments everyone keeps making, are way too much to ask the average guy to have to do. Trial and error to replace a good Dyno tune? A bike should be tuned and forgotten until another mod is made. If you gotta keep fiddling with this thing in trying to replace a real Dyno tune, it just ain't worth it, IMO!
Hoist! 8)
I agree wholeheartedly...I'm taking one shot at getting this thing tuned...hope it works...if it doesn't, I'll put the damn thing on Ebay, if I don't chunk it.
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I don't run the TMAT, but I ran across this forum thread discussing it. Over 1700 posts to this thread on the Zipper Automax Thunder Tune.
http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93157
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HDFR, when your bike was tuned at their shop were you given a warning similar to what Fr8trn described about their tuning efforts being dangerous to the bike? When you got the bike did you see any signs of abuse? Or was their care and service of seemingly good quality?
Don,
I received no such warning and there were no indications that the bike had been abused when I received it. I have done similar projects with Zippers in the past and my experiences have always been positive or I would not have entrusted them to do this one. I had used the T-Max with a canned map on a Stage 1 2005 FLHT before the AT became available. Based on my complete satisfaction with that experience, I decided to add the AT capability when they did my current 120" build. For me, Zipper's is the best local performance shop available, which is the main reason I chose them in the first place. If I lived in NC, it would have been T-Man Performance or Kendall Johnson, in Florida it probably would have been Cyclerama, and I would have used whatever package they suggested. Too many variables in these packages for me to be comfortable doing it from long distance.
I just returned from the VA State HOG Rally in Williamsburg where I accompanied a friend who had John Golden tune his motor with a Power Commander. The motor was built using a package recommended by Bob Wood who also supplied the cams. My friend followed Bob's recommendation to use Hillside Performance for the machine work on the heads and fitting the pistons. All components are exactly as prescribed by Bob. Despite John's best tuning efforts, there remains a detonation issue, similar to what you are describing, that could not be fixed without pulling so much timing that performace suffered unacceptably. John recommend that my friend provide Bob Wood with the dyno chart and a copy of the map for further analysis. My point is that tuning alone may not be the answer and the problem may not be exclusive to the T-Max.
I sincerely hope that you get everything sorted out.
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My point is that tuning alone may not be the answer and the problem may not be exclusive to the T-Max.
I sincerely hope that you get everything sorted out.
Thanks very much. That's my hope too.
That it simply won't go away with tuning is of course always a potential consideration. Not one I'd look forward to. But a potential consideration nonetheless.
Were that so than I'd have an entirely different set of questions for company. All the components impacting the problem would be theirs in the form of the "103 Muscle Kit." Made perfectly clearn before order was that I was after nothing radical, not even moderately extreme. Didn't even want to screw with compression releases. Goal was only an improvement that would be a highway cruising bike that would be everyday reliable. There was never any equivocation from that target.
With that as a foundation instruction for the order, and all the parts effecting it being supplied by them, I'd then be asking why I had not just a detonation issue but one so bad it couldn't be tuned out without gutting the gains in performance they'd taken the money for? Fortunately I'm still choosing be optimistic and assume that effective tuning with product and bike in hand will beat the problem. But you're right, I know that optimism may not bring an effective final result.
If I remember correctly Jim's T-Max installation (Jim from Scotland) is on an otherwise stock 110. SCRM's is an engine built for far more output than mine. And mine is a pretty plain jane minor upgrade. So at least with those three the detionation issue covers the gamut of engine changes from none to milk toast to very strong. Who knows what will end up resolving it though. Just hope some solution ends up being easy.
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I don't run the TMAT, but I ran across this forum thread discussing it. Over 1700 posts to this thread on the Zipper Automax Thunder Tune.
http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93157
OK
Call me lazy, but reading 1700 post on something I have already decided I don't want seems like a waste.
So whats the general direction of the 1700 post on the t max subject?
:nixweiss:
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OK
Call me lazy, but reading 1700 post on something I have already decided I don't want seems like a waste.
So whats the general direction of the 1700 post on the t max subject?
:nixweiss:
Didn't read beyond the first couple of posts, but it appears the thread is for those that have the TMAT and offers tips.
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OK
Call me lazy, but reading 1700 post on something I have already decided I don't want seems like a waste.
So whats the general direction of the 1700 post on the t max subject?
:nixweiss:
I'm with you, Chip.....there is too much going on with the scooters that have tried this...we need more credible info to refute our initial impressions, or I'm with you on the " don't want" decision. :( spyder
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Check your PM.
I have an appointment on 7/13 with a Zipper's authorized tuner in central Fl, so I'll know then if he can tune it out.
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Still looking for trends and other data that might be instructive.
My suggestion to hookup the laptop etc and add fuel and retard timing should take no more than 5 minutes, and a few minutes to ride around. I hope you find the time to at least do this task, It would say a lot. At the same time, log it, and then send it over. I have the buikd softwaew, and can analyze the run and pinpoint any areas suspect.
Also, I don't think you answered one other members question regarding the build. Was this parts purchased from Zippers that you installed yourself, or did the do it and ship out the finished goods? Thanks...Still plunking along mystified, but I love challenges. I will be also talking with Zippers Monday AM on a scheduled call.
Ron (eyemateypatchespeglegsandparrotsforanotherweekitseems)
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My suggestion to hookup the laptop etc and add fuel and retard timing should take no more than 5 minutes, and a few minutes to ride around. I hope you find the time to at least do this task, It would say a lot. At the same time, log it, and then send it over. I have the buikd softwaew, and can analyze the run and pinpoint any areas suspect.
Also, I don't think you answered one other members question regarding the build. Was this parts purchased from Zippers that you installed yourself, or did the do it and ship out the finished goods? Thanks...Still plunking along mystified, but I love challenges. I will be also talking with Zippers Monday AM on a scheduled call.
Ron (eyemateypatchespeglegsandparrotsforanotherweekitseems)
Hey there, the questions on the build had been answered (I think a couple of times throughout the thread actually). But just to be clarify; parts from Zippers and I did the assembly.
Rhino, today was and continues to be a long day at the desk. Tomorrow much the same. Real life often intrudes on what we'd like to do. I'll try to log data tomorrow afternoon. It will depend, however, on how much time can be taken away from other things.
Like you I'd like nothing other than to find a simple solution. I do have a schedule consideration of the local shop having only one tuning spot in their schedule between now and the departure for the Nelson trip. That slot is only a few days away. So if I can't know for sure the TMax question can be resolved by then I'll have to go the other way; at least for now. It's no statement of anyone's willingness to assist at the moment. Just a practical scheduling reality.
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OK then, I wait....... Let me know.
Rhino
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oh, Friend With Benefits ::)
Ah...ok, I was thinkin Fat White Broad and figured hey, their fun.....ya just don't let your friends find out. LOL
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But just to be clarify; parts from Zippers and I did the assembly.
TwoLane,
Are you running the Zippers Throttle Body as well? I ask because if this situation is NOT resolved before your trip, is swapping back to the OEM ECM, and getting a dyno tune (I know,....more money) a possibility? I know it's expensive, it it is a possibility. Just another word of caution, Zippers DOES NOT like it when customers get impatient and start swapping things out to try and find a solution. I swapped my stuff out, and changed my bike over from Marelli to Delphi to try and get it to run better (I had the same sort of tuning issues as you). This really pissed them off and started my whole non communication problem.
Keep us posted.
Mark
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TwoLane,
Are you running the Zippers Throttle Body as well? I ask because if this situation is NOT resolved before your trip, is swapping back to the OEM ECM, and getting a dyno tune (I know,....more money) a possibility? I know it's expensive, it it is a possibility. Just another word of caution, Zippers DOES NOT like it when customers get impatient and start swapping things out to try and find a solution. I swapped my stuff out, and changed my bike over from Marelli to Delphi to try and get it to run better (I had the same sort of tuning issues as you). This really pissed them off and started my whole non communication problem.
Keep us posted.
Mark
Mark,
Part of Zippers "103 Muscle Kit" is their 50mm throttle body, intake and mating air cleaner. So, yes, they are on the bike. I lost about a month from initial attempts at support to finally beginning to get support. That did push me to a real and significant deadline for the upcoming trip.
While I'd not (or at least wouldn't see any reason to do so yet) start pulling intake components I will readily pull the T-Max off and reinstall the stock ECM to get it tuned in an attempt to make the bike ready for the trip. In fact I'm quite sure that will have to happen as the only tuning slot in the dyno schedule between now and my departure is just a few days away. That slot can't be missed just in case the T-Max couldn't be worked through between now and then.
If that's the case the Thundermax support efforts will simply go on hiatus. I've suggested what seems a very fair idea to them that could be pursued later. Or we could simply go through the steps they want me to go through, but do them later. Quite frankly they'll probably spend more of their time dancing me through step after step after step then if they'd accept "Plan B" and spin it themselves for a half day for a tune.
I've got no issue with spending the dollars for a dyno tune to make the trip. It's unfortunate that such a redundant expense might have become necessary. But it is what is. If I need to I need to and it's on me. Zippers can't (or shouldn't) get upset at my willingness to bear that expense when it only gains more flexibility and time to address the problem.
It would also isolate the tuning and ignition from the engine. If it still pings like a b*tch with the stock ECM and a good tune via SERT or Power Commander then an entirely different discussion would begin. That is, quite frankly, information worth having and information I'd pay to learn.
The only reason the company supplying all the parts (Zippers) would not want that information to be in the consumers' hands would be if they were concerned about the larger supplied parts collection also. I've seen no indication of that on their part. But I can't say that I wouldn't mind isolating the engine build from the ECM/Ignition system just to know for sure. It would be information very much worth having in hand to address reservations that might come during further pursuit of the tuning problem (if that's where it is). Quite frankly there is also no reason to be a puppy chasing it's tail round and round on an issue if you can find out relatively easy whether or not the tail is actually the problem.
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Part of Zippers "103 Muscle Kit" is their 50mm throttle body, intake and mating air cleaner. So, yes, they are on the bike.
While I'd not (or at least wouldn't see any reason to do so yet) start pulling intake components I will readily pull the T-Max off and reinstall the stock ECM to get it tuned in an attempt to make the bike ready for the trip.
Don,
I too have the Zippers 50mm TB, as it came with their Marelli Conversion kit. One of the things I noticed on mine is that the Zippers TB DOES NOT have a MAP sensor, at least mine did not. I ended up zip tying the MAP sensor hook up out of the way. Back when I was able to speak with Zippers Tech support, it was explained to me that the way their set up is designed, the T-MAX ECM does not use a MAP sensor, so even if someone were to keep their OEM TB, the MAP sensor is somehow taken out of the loop when using the T-MAX ECM. Now I may be all wrong about that, so you better double check before your just install the OEM ECM and head out for a dyno tune. I'd hate to see you run into more headaches as the OEM ECM looks for a MAP sensor that is not on the Zippers TB.
Did you see the other posting about Zippers no longer being a site tech supported vendor?
Mark
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Don,
I too have the Zippers 50mm TB, as it came with their Marelli Conversion kit. One of the things I noticed on mine is that the Zippers TB DOES NOT have a MAP sensor, at least mine did not. I ended up zip tying the MAP sensor hook up out of the way. Back when I was able to speak with Zippers Tech support, it was explained to me that the way their set up is designed, the T-MAX ECM does not use a MAP sensor, so even if someone were to keep their OEM TB, the MAP sensor is somehow taken out of the loop when using the T-MAX ECM. Now I may be all wrong about that, so you better double check before your just install the OEM ECM and head out for a dyno tune. I'd hate to see you run into more headaches as the OEM ECM looks for a MAP sensor that is not on the Zippers TB.
Did you see the other posting about Zippers no longer being a site tech supported vendor?
Mark
Hmmm..... Their intake and throttle bodies are sold/described as working with or without the TMax ECM. On the "103 Muscle Kit" package, of which my intake and throttle body were a part, the TMax is specifically mentioned but described as something you can add to the party.
That being so the intake and throttle body would have to be able to swing both ways. In my case the sensor is installed and the new intake has it in exactly the place you'd expect to find it.
Have no idea why your intake wouldn't have provision for it. Is the Marelli conversion package you got dedicated specifically to a conversion from M&M to Thundermax? Or is it just conversion from M&M to Delphi or anything that would work in Delphi's place?
If it is designed as a package to specifically and only convert from M&M to Thundermax that would seem to acccount for sensor no longer being needed. Even then, however, it seems odd that they'd build two entirely different intakes when one would suffice by just plugging the hole with the existing sensor (whether it's used or not).
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OK, it has been two days!
Has anyone heard from Jim?
Thousands of miles from home and his bike quits.
Anybody heard what the outcome was?
:nixweiss:
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OK, it has been two days!
Has anyone heard from Jim?
Thousands of miles from home and his bike quits.
Anybody heard what the outcome was?
:nixweiss:
No PM to me. And nothing here in the public thread either. Hopefully that means he got going and simply is enjoying the trip (because the likely alternative is the problem was really ugly and he's so pissed off at anything Harley right now even logging in here makes his stomach turn).
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Just a few observations to help you all. I did some mixture testing on a crude load dyno and came to the conclusion that my engine ran best at 12.8/1 at idle and under acceleration conditions. If I leaned out much above 13.8/1 in cruise then torque would start to drop off. In other words more throttle needed to maintain a given speed.
Now for the big discovery on my 07 Glide - I HAD SOME FRONT CYLINDER EXHAUST GOING PAST REAR CYLINDER 02 SENSOR.I removed the right hand muffler baffle and drilled enough holes in it to double my air flow through it and rewelded it back in. On warm up the right muffler heats up quicker than the left one. Some of you must chuckle at how scientific my testing is, but it works. This has changed my motor's performance tremendously. I can now have more advance without pinging. Power improved. There is now no hunting while driving, only a steady drone. 800 rpm idle is totally solid. Small amounts of exhaust from the other cylinder can really destabilize the closed loop process and cause pinging due to intermitent leaness.
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To go along with my previous post
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Good morning jschmuck ,
:welcome_005: on the CVO website.
Thanks for your informations.
Best regards
:vrolijk_26: Jacques
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Small amounts of exhaust from the other cylinder can really destabilize the closed loop process
True duals here.
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True Duals here too....Rineharts with performance baffles.
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OK, it has been two days!
Has anyone heard from Jim?
Thousands of miles from home and his bike quits.
Anybody heard what the outcome was?
:nixweiss:
Bump :nixweiss:
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Bump :nixweiss:
No news !
Last connection : June 22th.
Jacques
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No news !
Last connection : June 22th.
Jacques
Had his phone number for a CB problem I'd called Harmon Kardon for him about a year or so ago. Spent 40 minutes yesterday looking for that number but couldn't find it. So no luck here.
If he was still broke down he'd eventually have opted to vent a little frustration on the site. Really believe "no news" must be "good news" and that not reading his words must mean he's back on the road enjoying the trip (either that or he's on foot inside the Chunnel on a long walk home back to Scotland).
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OK Guys - just got an internet connection for the first time since Friday, so an update (I appreciate all your voices of concern! :2vrolijk_21:)
I called back to the UK and asked our dealer to express to HD what my thoughts about this were (!). Shortly thereafter, I had an SMS from the UK HD rep, telling me that his colleague in Spain would be in touch. He called me, told me that he would await the report from the tech tent at the rally on my bike, then act accordingly.
The next day, the tech department - who had been so unhelpful on first contact - were falling over themselves to be helpful, so words must have been whispered in their ear. ;) They said no compression on rear cylinder, exactly as I had suspected and suggested to them. My guess will be a burnt valve or holed piston - though I doubt we'll ever know.
Harley provided me with an Ultra Classic from the rally to continue our holiday with, and have shipped my bike back to the UK with their bikes. It should be back at our dealers before I get home. They called me yesterday to let me know that they have ordered a new engine this time, so all should be well in the end... :carrot:
This time the MoCo came through! :orange:
Jim
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Hey Eqcons, sorry you're having the trouble, but glad for you that the MoCo and all concerned finally came thru to save the day for you. Keep us apprised. :drink: spyder
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OK Guys - just got an internet connection for the first time since Friday, so an update (I appreciate all your voices of concern! :2vrolijk_21:)
I called back to the UK and asked our dealer to express to HD what my thoughts about this were (!). Shortly thereafter, I had an SMS from the UK HD rep, telling me that his colleague in Spain would be in touch. He called me, told me that he would await the report from the tech tent at the rally on my bike, then act accordingly.
The next day, the tech department - who had been so unhelpful on first contact - were falling over themselves to be helpful, so words must have been whispered in their ear. ;) They said no compression on rear cylinder, exactly as I had suspected and suggested to them. My guess will be a burnt valve or holed piston - though I doubt we'll ever know.
Harley provided me with an Ultra Classic from the rally to continue our holiday with, and have shipped my bike back to the UK with their bikes. It should be back at our dealers before I get home. They called me yesterday to let me know that they have ordered a new engine this time, so all should be well in the end... :carrot:
This time the MoCo came through! :orange:
Jim
WOW
Now that's good news!
We were worried!
Hope all works out in the end!
Let us know what happened to the motor!
:2vrolijk_21:
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Too bad Jim. At least they're making good! Did the TMAT come into question at all? Enjoy the rest of your trip! Hoist! 8)
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Did the TMAT come into question at all?
Not yet Howie.... We'll see what the damage is I think, but I suspect I'll be changing the TMAT for a SERT on the new motor.
Jim
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Not yet Howie.... We'll see what the damage is I think, but I suspect I'll be changing the TMAT for a SERT on the new motor.
Jim
Well should it come up, get with some of the guys here that have had the same issue without the TMAT, if you work with them perhaps a couple VIN's that have had the same issue might ring a little louder in the MoCo's ears.......Good luck with it, glad they set you up so you could continue riding.....
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Well should it come up, get with some of the guys here that have had the same issue without the TMAT, if you work with them perhaps a couple VIN's that have had the same issue might ring a little louder in the MoCo's ears.......Good luck with it, glad they set you up so you could continue riding.....
Hopefully since a warranty claim had already been approved to change the cases on this engine the extra step won't cause anyone to take too long of a second look.
Jim, glad to read that they are picking up the effort of getting it home for you. It may not salvage the vacation. But it's still a big help. Good luck with getting it all sorted out as quickly as possible.
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Not yet Howie.... We'll see what the damage is I think, but I suspect I'll be changing the TMAT for a SERT on the new motor.
Jim
Sorry to read about your troubles, Jim, but the MoCo came through for you.
Good idea you have there.
Hope you enjoy the rest of your trip!
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Well should it come up, get with some of the guys here that have had the same issue without the TMAT, if you work with them perhaps a couple VIN's that have had the same issue might ring a little louder in the MoCo's ears.......Good luck with it, glad they set you up so you could continue riding.....
In fairness to the TMAT, I can't say it's in any way to blame at the moment; these bikes - even in standard form, run way too hot, especially (for obvious reasons) on the rear cylinder.
The TMAT otherwise performs faultlessly, and even the standard Ultra the Moco have loaned me pings on the good gas in this heat. And it has blued mufflers. IF I change the TMAT for a SERT, it'll be because if I do get stuck somewhere, with the TMAT, the techs can't connect their digitech to look at error codes, not because I feel the TMAT isn't up to the job.
Jim
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Jim,
Happy to read your news !
I wish you an happy end for your holidays but it's rainy in France and in England and Scotland.
Ride safe !
I've stopped my travel to Fuengirola in the Pyrenees the 19th June.
Tomorrow, I go to the dealer for my starter and the heat's problems.
Wait and see !
I've received my TM/AT and probably I'll mount it after this visit.
Jacques
Nota : I decide to wash my bike after my "little" ride and now, I'm same the others :
I've my leak on the head gasket on the rear cylinder. 8)
:beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug:
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Jim,
Happy to read your news !
I wish you an happy end for your holidays but it's rainy in France and in England and Scotland.
Ride safe !
I've stopped my travel to Fuengirola in the Pyrenees the 19th June.
Tomorrow, I go to the dealer for my starter and the heat's problems.
Wait and see !
I've received my TM/AT and probably I'll mount it after this visit.
Jacques
Nota : I decide to wash my bike after my "little" ride and now, I'm same the others :
I've my leak on the head gasket on the rear cylinder. 8)
:beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug:
Hi Jacques - we are back in France (Dax tonight, Chatellerault tomorrow night). Why did you stop in the Pyrenees?
We were in the Pyrenees on the 18th - through Andorra.
Interestingly my head gasket does not show the "usual" leak at the rear, but my friend's does, after the trip to Fuengirola!
Jim
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Hello Jim,
Just I arrive from my dealer where I put my bike.
He'll change the head gaskets (only the rear cylinder have a leak) and check the rocker boxes.
Concerning the last point, I've sended the pics from this thread :
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=14631.15 (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=14631.15)
Now I'll wait 2 or 3 weeks before I ride again with my baby.
I arrived in the Pyrenees the 19th June by Perpignan and I explain my problems in my pic's reports :
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=14620.0 (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=14620.0)
in the first topic.
It was not reasonable to ride to Fuengirola because when I stopped my engine, I was not sure to start again.
I've had a good discussion with the SM this morning about the generic problems of the 110ci.
I related all experiences of the owners from the site.
He agree with me for the head gaskets because he had another customer (SERK) with the leak.
Concerning the rocker boxes, he had no informations from the Moco.
He'll look on mine because he'll change the gaskets but without that, he'll look not.
I advise him to check before the crank runout. Same : no information from the MoCo.
I explain him if it's out, it'll not necessary to dismount the other parts because he need to change the engine.
Concerning this point, he'll not check without MoCo's informations.
I explain him that the heat is the origin of all problems.
He agree with me and advise me to change my exhaust, A/C and a SERT.
I said him that I've the exhaust, the RYO A/C and I bought a TM/AT.
I explain him the system and I ask him if it's a problem for the warranty.
I'll have not a paper but he says me :
If we have a problem and it'll possible to replace the TM/AT with the ECM, he'll manage the problem of warranty with the MoCo.
Sure, this way is possible with my dealer but if the bike is out in other place, I need to bring with me the ECM and O2 sensors.
Good news, the rain will come back not before Friday afternoon on the West of France..
Jacques
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Well this thread sort of died abruptly......2Lane, how is it going with your scoot?? You finally pulled the magical plug and gone back to stock ECM and PCIII????
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Well this thread sort of died abruptly......2Lane, how is it going with your scoot?? You finally pulled the magical plug and gone back to stock ECM and PCIII????
Fr8, I'm in the process. Just got back home from an aborted attempt actually.
After the long delay in actually getting a response from the company there was the response that was seen here. Zipper's Fitzmaurice offered an alternative or two and answered a couple of emails. All that was a real response. In and of itself that was much better than before. The downside was that the revised map he provided didn't help.
I let him now that I had an impending travel deadline. A deadline we were now pushing more because of the delay initially in getting any real response from the company (didn't say that to him while he was helping, only "thanks for the help").
Almost immediately after letting him know of the deadline he responded by saying we'd have to begin a "surgical approach" that would apparently include several incremental steps. In other words lots of time. After he offers an idea, I do it, he studies the result, offers a variation to continue that idea or moves on to something different. It would be easy to see how such a process could take quite some time.
At a minimum between his time and mine each individual cycle would easily be two or three days. Also unfortunate for a system that was supposed to do all that itself and was presented as being mapped so closely to my bike that it would be good to go without concern or issue.
No way that would get worked through, with certainty, before the Nelson trip. Not their fault. Not mine. I do not necessarily believe the "surgical process" was suggested when it was to push the travel deadline and force me to consider alternatives and relieve them of responsibility for further efforts.
That was the effect though.
I advised him in a responding email that I'd have to consider alternatives. The various options for local tuners have busy schedules. I was scheduled to get the bike tuned at a dealer with a decent rep on the south side of Kansas City this morning. Got part way there and found the highway closed due to flooding from recent heavy rains. Appintment now rescheduled for Friday and will have to take an alternative route that turns a two hour trip in to almost a four hour trip. But it'll at least be done.
The last troubling part, however, was this. When I advised Zippers that I'd have to pursue a Plan-B option I also suggested to them what seemed to me a very fair alternative. I'd be getting the bike tuned alternatively right now. My expense. Nothing asked or expected of them. This allowed a lot more time flexibility for them actually.
I then suggested that in the late summer or early fall I simply bring them the bike. They could take a few hours one day and just make it right. They could deliver on the promise of the system and the promise of the advertising for the system. From my take on what Fitzmaurice had seemed to suggest might be involved in the "surgical process" they'd also have less man hours in just tuning it once than he'd spend methodically and carefully working through these many steps and alternatives.
I'd supply cross country travel and they'd supply a small hand full of hours morning or afternoon. In the process they'd get the opportunity to step up and make it right. It seemed a completely fair suggestion that (to me) any business would have jumped at. I got no response. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
Thinking it couldn't be them I emailed again a few days later. Again no response. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
Obviously I can't know what's in another's mind. I can't know that when put in the position of actually having to prove themselves effective and make real the promises of the system and its advertising that they just chose to again be as non-responsive as they'd been initially. It could just be email.....
What I do know is that, barring even more high water, the bike will be tuned and ready to go on Friday. I also know that, all reason for delay being irrelevant, the fact of delay in response from Zippers is too real to accept if one needed support while travelling. Quality of hardware notwithstanding, in my experience the company has simply been wholly unreliable. That other's experiences are better is fine. I'm happy for their good fortune. When needing assistance with a primary system, however, it's just not good enough to wonder if it could just be email.....
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2LR, sorry to hear you still having issues, I was about to send a note wanting to know you status. This has made me really rethink the purchase of the TMAT. It'll be be interesting to see what your tuner finds, keep us posted!
I guess my question it how many people out there have the TMAT, and how many are having problems??? From what I seen on several threads there are a few with this same problem, don't need to go into detail, but it would be nice to get numbers as to how many are working ok, verses not. The bottom line to me is this may be a fairly new product, so some problems may be expected, but the lack of support and resolution of the problem, is a problem!!
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2LR, sorry to hear you still having issues, I was about to send a note wanting to know you status. This has made me really rethink the purchase of the TMAT. It'll be be interesting to see what your tuner finds, keep us posted!
I guess my question it how many people out there have the TMAT, and how many are having problems??? From what I seen on several threads there are a few with this same problem, don't need to go into detail, but it would be nice to get numbers as to how many are working ok, verses not. The bottom line to me is this may be a fairly new product, so some problems may be expected, but the lack of support and resolution of the problem, is a problem!!
Talon, we share much the same view. Sometimes parts give a problem. They just do. And sometimes they don't. For those that don't have issue that's great. We envy them their good fortune. It's not their experience, however, that the company's efforts should be judged by. It's easy to be good when nothing is really asked of you.
We also agree that neither good fortune nor problem is universal here. From the several PMs I've received and those that have participated in this conversation publicly I know that even among our small group there are several who are experiencing some type of hardware or support related issue. And again, for those that haven't I'm sure every one of us that have envy them their success.
Speaking only to my particular case it's just unfortunate that the specific things I asked about and were promised (simple, effective, reliable, not extreme, regular cruising use) are specifically those things which weren't to be. A base map that was supposed to be "nearly perfect" (relative to their own supplied engine kit) obviously isn't. The system's ability to compensate and adjust as advertised also doesn't meet its demands relative to the way the company supplied the product. Getting help was initially difficult and slow, then provided to the extent described above, then faded away again.
The only thing I might suggest is that a prospective client of theirs go in with eyes wide open. Ask lots of question. Pointed questions. Of course I asked a lot of questions too. If your experience is seamless it will likely be very much so. If not, however, it might become very very difficult and annoying to tie those seams back together. My own such metaphorical seams were ripped apart allowing the Thundermax parts to fall through the hole created. They now reside on the work bench where I expect they'll be til such time as they visit eBay (as Zippers stepping back up seems less likely with each passing day).
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Don, no matter what you do with getting this system working on your bike later this fall, I sure hope nothing about it is going to stop you from being able to make the trek to Nelson.
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Don, no matter what you do with getting this system working on your bike later this fall, I sure hope nothing about it is going to stop you from being able to make the trek to Nelson.
Me too Candy. That has been the sole motivator for a long time now. When the initial request for assistance took a month to finally start getting assistance I knew that (given the efforts of many vendors today) I might be pushing it close.
That's why when it got close I was willing to jump to a Plan B. Got to get on the road. There's also a Plan C tuning option on the 9th or 10th. But I don't want to push it that close. John Golden is going to be back in town for a couple of days then. As much as I'd love John to do it I don't want to be messing with until literally the day before departure. After all, I still want to ride it a little bit with the trailer behind me before I go just to get a feel for it.
The flooded out highways between here and Kansas City stopped me this morning. Am now rescheduled for Friday morning at 1000. With both of the major north/south options washed out from here it'll be a long enough trip I might even go up Thursday evening now and stay with a friend. I started to say "come hell or high water it'll get done though." But the high water thing got me today :huepfenlol2: .
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...I started to say "come hell or high water it'll get done though." But the high water thing got me today :huepfenlol2: .
Kind of be careful what you ask for.
Don't want to claim to be like the letter carriers either for the same reason.
WFP did that when he went to the SEEG Plate Meeting for Nor Reason, and he got the rain, ice and snow on that trip. I don't want to see all that.
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Well enjoy your trip Don, the important part is you'll be riding. Sad you hadn't heard back on getting them to tune it later this year. Hopefully it all works out.....
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Me too Candy. That has been the sole motivator for a long time now. When the initial request for assistance took a month to finally start getting assistance I knew that (given the efforts of many vendors today) I might be pushing it close.
That's why when it got close I was willing to jump to a Plan B. Got to get on the road. There's also a Plan C tuning option on the 9th or 10th. But I don't want to push it that close. John Golden is going to be back in town for a couple of days then. As much as I'd love John to do it I don't want to be messing with until literally the day before departure. After all, I still want to ride it a little bit with the trailer behind me before I go just to get a feel for it.
:huepfenlol2: .
Don,
It is very disappointing that the onset of hot weather has had such a dramtic impact on what had been a very impressive build, 119HP/119TQ!
I won't go into the T-MAX product claims or customer service issues since they have already been thoroughly addressed in this thread.
A note of caution for your future tuning endeavors: As good as his reputation appears, even John Golden doesn't have a magic wand for all tuning matters. Two weeks ago I recommend a friend have John tune his PC equipped 95" build that was experiencing similar problems to yours. John had it on the dyno for almost an hour and made some progress, but was unable to eliminate all the detonation. He opined that perhaps it was related to compression building too quickly and instructed my friend to contact Hillside Cycles, who configured the build, for their advice. On the way to Hillside, my friend brought his bike to nearby Joe's Cycle Repair in Mechanicsville, NY for a second tuning opinion. Joe is also a renowned tuning guru. After getting the bike on the dyno, Joe reported that fuel and timing maps for the rear cylinder had not been done independently from the front. I was there when John tuned it and can attest to the fact that he only measured the A/F for the front cylinder (RH True Duals). Joe was able to dial out the remaining detonation and increase performance by 5 HP and 4 FT/LB TQ. To be fair to John, the compression (219 psi CCR) is an issue that Hillside is now lowering. Nonetheless, he still only tuned it from the front cylinder. My point is that at the end of the day it takes a skilled technician AND a knowledgeable consumer to ensure the job gets done right.
I hope you are able to get yours done right so you can begin to enjoy riding again.
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I hope you are able to get yours done right so you can begin to enjoy riding again.
Thanks HDFR. Fully understand that hardware too extreme might lead to a problem that tuning itself can't correct. Of course part of the conversation on this particular top end rebuild included precisely the discussion to preclude that; or at least it was supposed to.
All the hardware is from the same vendor. All the machine work was from that same vendor. The tuning/ignition package was from the same vendor. All at the same time. All purchased following a discussion that included statements like "nothing extreme," "reliable cruiser," "don't even want to mess with compression releases" and "needs to be reliable for long rides."
With those as guidance and instruction to the vendor and the vendor supplying the package in return I don't think I'm being unfair asking for something different then the experience received so far. You're right too in that the bike did run great in cool weather. It gets by without compression releases without issue.
It does nothing (besides the detonation) to make one believe it is "extreme" in any way. CR isn't frighteningly high, etc etc etc. All that leaves me optimistic that a proper tuning effort will have it going. But you're also right that I do not know that for a fact. And I won't until the tuning effort is tried.
If it works, great. I move on and, quite frankly, don't worry about it. If it doesn't, however, then after all the guidance and instruction given the vendor prior to parts acquisition I've got a completely different conversation to begin with them.
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Well enjoy your trip Don, the important part is you'll be riding.
Amen to that and thanks very much. Really looking forward to it. Pushing deadlines tighter than I'd like. But just can't wait to have issue behind me and open road in front.
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Don
You have written so many words that have spelled out how you have been treated by Zippers!
Everytime you post there is always the hint, the hope that they will step up and finally do the right thing.
But until they do let me summarize how I see their service to you and their followup.
Zippers suck!
If I have misstated my perception of their service to you please correct me.
I only hope no one has to go through what you have been through.
If it had been me the term "Going Postal" would probably apply.
S
/
B
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Don
You have written so many words that have spelled out how you have been treated by Zippers!
Everytime you post there is always the hint, the hope that they will step up and finally do the right thing.
But until they do let me summarize how I see their service to you and their followup.
Zippers suck!
If I have misstated my perception of their service to you please correct me.
I only hope no one has to go through what you have been through.
If it had been me the term "Going Postal" would probably apply.
S
/
B
Well said. I agree, and can tell you from first hand experience that the worst part is having to "hang on", and wait for Zippers to make things right. I'm sure they mean well, and have good intentions, but it all comes down to results, or lack there of. If I could do it all over again, I NEVER would have gone down the road of Zippers. Like I have said before, the product is good. The support is not. Once you buy their product, they HAVE your money, so support becomes a non issue. If you are lucky and your build and MAP work well, you are a HAPPY customer because you don't need support. However, if you have issues like Don and I, you are at their mercy.
I have said this before, thank God for guys like Rhino, and jsheppard on the VTF. These guys have provided me and others with valuable support, and answers when Zippers kept us hanging. Without them, a lot of Zippers customers would have "gone postal".
Keep us posted on this saga Don.
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Well said Chip! Knowing the hell I'm in just dealing with HD dealers, which I'm pretty fed up with by now, I can't imagine putting up with that crap from an indie or vendor. This is a song that keeps repeating itself with Zippers from many people. Not just from this site! It's unfortunate that after spending your hard earned money there, they abandon you like you don't matter at all! F Zippers! FTF! FTW! Why is it so difficult to get what you pay for? Hope your tune takes care of your issues Don.
Hoist! 8)
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When I was down at Ft. Rucker, I had a buddy who was looking hard at Zippers stuff. Financial challenges thwarted his desires, and it looks like that may have been a blessing in disguise for him. He works in the Building now, so I've been relaying to him. Apparently he is considering a trip to Carl's Speed Shop now. I hear they do good work..............anyone hear different?
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When I was down at Ft. Rucker, I had a buddy who was looking hard at Zippers stuff. Financial challenges thwarted his desires, and it looks like that may have been a blessing in disguise for him. He works in the Building now, so I've been relaying to him. Apparently he is considering a trip to Carl's Speed Shop now. I hear they do good work..............anyone hear different?
Over on the V-Twin Forum there is an unfavorable thread about Carls Speed Shop. I think your friend should read it.
As with everything including Zippers, your experiences may differ.
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Over on the V-Twin Forum there is an unfavorable thread about Carls Speed Shop. I think your friend should read it.
As with everything including Zippers, your experiences may differ.
That's good info to have, Ironhorse. Thank you very much for sharing. I'll pass it along.
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I'm sorry to hear about the problems you guys are having with Zippers tmax,I allmost ordered one for my seeg.I also noticed Zippers no longer has a vendor support area on the site.Did the site pull there plug or did Zippers pull out???
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I'm sorry to hear about the problems you guys are having with Zippers tmax,I allmost ordered one for my seeg.I also noticed Zippers no longer has a vendor support area on the site.Did the site pull there plug or did Zippers pull out???
As I understand it the change in site status was not at Zippers request.
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Don
You have written so many words that have spelled out how you have been treated by Zippers!
Everytime you post there is always the hint, the hope that they will step up and finally do the right thing.
But until they do let me summarize how I see their service to you and their followup.
Zippers suck!
If I have misstated my perception of their service to you please correct me.
I only hope no one has to go through what you have been through.
If it had been me the term "Going Postal" would probably apply.
S
/
B
Well Chip, it's not that I haven't thought their efforts had been approaching maximum sucking potential for awhile. From the outset with the "mis-promised" delivery and poor machine work to the inability to get follow up answers to the lack of response or suppor later it's been less than a journeyman's effort.
Until I'd completely bailed, however, there was just yet no reason to go postal. If there was a shot they'd actually step up I was willing to swallow the bile and allow them the opportunity. Bad tastes are only abided so long though. Their ignition is of the bike. They've chosen not to respond at all to the latter (and very fair) request.
I believe, without doubt, that any warranty, support or kisses in the dark just aren't going to happen. Even if it turns out tuning doesn't help (I think it will, but if not....) and they just royally F'd the parts combination for the build they'll still not do anything.
I had the temerity to voice complaint over their poor efforts to begin with. I'd spoken of what they did well. Kitzmiller enjoyed that. I then spoke of what they didn't do well. That pissed Kitzmiller off. He said so. After that responses to questions were non-existent or had to be strongly encouraged. So I'm not surprised that now they're not stepping up. I was surprised there were a lot more than just me enduring similar hassles though.
But, yeah, at least in my experience; Zippers Sucks (and quite royally too).
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You'd really think this was not a Forum they'd want bad publicity in, and step up and help make things right! Either they can't make their chit work right, or they just don't GAS about customers after the sale. Can't understand why, with such a following, you would wanna deal with that kind of reputation and bad publicity when you don't have to. They're their own worst enemies! Hoist! 8)
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You'd really think this was not a Forum they'd want bad publicity in ... They're their own worst enemies!
All I can say is that a good chunk of the thinking behind my going with the SERT was comments in this forum.
bc
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I am also having trouble with my thundermax unit but my bike is rideable wish i would of found this site before i bought one ......i am getting pinging @ 3000 rpms like if I'm running between 65 and 70mph and i roll on the throttle i hear it ping just a couple times before the t max i had the power commander3 had it tuned the tuner said he could"nt get the ping out at that rpm also...Emailed zippers they had me lower the timing in that rpm range by -1 in a smoothing effect didn't help went all the way to - 3 still pinged .Emailed then again told me to add gas in those area's till i found it didn't ping anymore i also thought this tmax was suppose to do it for me..What i have is a 2005 roadking 95" kit with SE flat top pistons, SE air filter,37g cams,2 into 1 fatcat exhaust, heads ported and polished for a 9:8-1 they told me to use map #275 hope this is the right map.. Also sorry to hear other people are having troubles also....... Glad i kept my PC3 looks like i might need it and also a better tuner..................
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I am also having trouble with my thundermax unit but my bike is rideable wish i would of found this site before i bought one ......i am getting pinging @ 3000 rpms like if I'm running between 65 and 70mph and i roll on the throttle i hear it ping just a couple times before the t max i had the power commander3 had it tuned the tuner said he could"nt get the ping out at that rpm also...Emailed zippers they had me lower the timing in that rpm range by -1 in a smoothing effect didn't help went all the way to - 3 still pinged .Emailed then again told me to add gas in those area's till i found it didn't ping anymore i also thought this tmax was suppose to do it for me..What i have is a 2005 roadking 95" kit with SE flat top pistons, SE air filter,37g cams,2 into 1 fatcat exhaust, heads ported and polished for a 9:8-1 they told me to use map #275 hope this is the right map.. Also sorry to hear other people are having troubles also....... Glad i kept my PC3 looks like i might need it and also a better tuner..................
RDJ Roadking,
Welcome to CVOHarley glad to have you join us. :2vrolijk_21: When you get a chance you should go to this board - New Member Introduction (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php/board,30.0.html) and start a thread to introduce yourself. Don't forget to include some pictures of your scooter. Because....
:worthless: :worthless:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Hello RDJ,
Welcome to this site. Regarding your TMAX, it can be tuned, but you have to remember some basics. First, Zippers has created a lot of maps for a variety of combinations for you. What this does, is tells the Thundermax to do whatever neccessary to make your bike FOLLOW the fuel ratios, timing etc, that the map is set for. This is the automatic part. If you tell the bike to run 13.5 AFR, it will, perfectly.
But a question for you first, do the 2/1 fatcats have the 02 sensor bung, and are you running the 02 sensors, and, are you running in either open or closed loop??
A common misunderstanding is that the TMAX is fully automatic, meaning take any ol bike, and with any combination, just hook it up and it will run great. Well, this is not the case, but for some reason, some think it works this way. Simply, the pre-created maps are very close to what you bike likes, and then the TMAX automatically adjusts conditions so the map and bike work in harmony. But, you really need to have some type of a BASE map. Now, with your combination, there is not a pre created map, and Zippers recommended map as you said is # 275. Let me take a look. The 275 map is for the following: HCRESJSGEF010307.slk and kind of matches, with the exception of the cam you are running, the 37G. So, right away, the cam profile is very different than the stock that this map was designed for. So, you have to compensate for that. a little. The map choices in this 95" instance are either harley 203, redshift 557, or stock. The idea is to get as close as possible to the configuration you have #1, and then make minor adjustments to AFR and timing #2.
I personally think you have retarded timing far enough. I also think you need to increase your target AFR to 13.0 if not already, and also, if closed loop, richen up a bit at the top end throttle degrees from 2500rpm up. But first, let's simply see what you have, so....
Rather than guess at the answer from my question, I await your response, and will go from there.
Rhino
I am also having trouble with my thundermax unit but my bike is rideable wish i would of found this site before i bought one ......i am getting pinging @ 3000 rpms like if I'm running between 65 and 70mph and i roll on the throttle i hear it ping just a couple times before the t max i had the power commander3 had it tuned the tuner said he could"nt get the ping out at that rpm also...Emailed zippers they had me lower the timing in that rpm range by -1 in a smoothing effect didn't help went all the way to - 3 still pinged .Emailed then again told me to add gas in those area's till i found it didn't ping anymore i also thought this tmax was suppose to do it for me..What i have is a 2005 roadking 95" kit with SE flat top pistons, SE air filter,37g cams,2 into 1 fatcat exhaust, heads ported and polished for a 9:8-1 they told me to use map #275 hope this is the right map.. Also sorry to hear other people are having troubles also....... Glad i kept my PC3 looks like i might need it and also a better tuner..................
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I am also having trouble with my thundermax unit but my bike is rideable wish i would of found this site before i bought one ......i am getting pinging @ 3000 rpms like if I'm running between 65 and 70mph and i roll on the throttle i hear it ping just a couple times before the t max i had the power commander3 had it tuned the tuner said he could"nt get the ping out at that rpm also...Emailed zippers they had me lower the timing in that rpm range by -1 in a smoothing effect didn't help went all the way to - 3 still pinged .Emailed then again told me to add gas in those area's till i found it didn't ping anymore i also thought this tmax was suppose to do it for me..What i have is a 2005 roadking 95" kit with SE flat top pistons, SE air filter,37g cams,2 into 1 fatcat exhaust, heads ported and polished for a 9:8-1 they told me to use map #275 hope this is the right map.. Also sorry to hear other people are having troubles also....... Glad i kept my PC3 looks like i might need it and also a better tuner..................
Hey Bro........and welcome to CVO Harley!! I'm a second time PCIIIUSB owner. I've run a SERT before, and after dealing with that, the PC is much easier. Remember, the SERT's second middle name is RACE.........and it's map, like the PC is a spreadsheet...........but each cell has to be tuned individuallly.........and that takes time........and unless you're racing.......it isn't worth it. Stick with the PC. It's good, its fast, and in the hands of a competent tuner, there isn't much better than a PC. Again, welcome aboard!
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The difference between the PC and the TMAX is substantial. The PC is an add on device to the existing ECM, and actually fools the stock ECM to run at the requested AFR's and timing etc. Not that this is a bad thing, but if Harley changes the ECM software, or does a code change, it can be a little problem. I hear 08 is going to be one of those years.. The TMAX requires total removal of the Stock ECM, and is a total replacement. And if you did not do unmapped custom work, then the pre made maps are quite a nice fit. (99%...yes a few are having trouble but out of thousands in the market the odds are very good) and then you have a very nice simple control system that requires no tuner. Me personally I LIKE that independence.
Rhino
I'm a second time PCIIIUSB owner. I've run a SERT before, and after dealing with that, the PC is much easier. Remember, the SERT's second middle name is RACE.........and it's map, like the PC is a spreadsheet...........but each cell has to be tuned individuallly.........and that takes time........and unless you're racing.......it isn't worth it. Stick with the PC. It's good, its fast, and in the hands of a competent tuner, there isn't much better than a PC. Again, welcome aboard!
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The difference between the PC and the TMAX is substantial. The PC is an add on device to the existing ECM, and actually fools the stock ECM to run at the requested AFR's and timing etc. Not that this is a bad thing, but if Harley changes the ECM software, or does a code change, it can be a little problem. I hear 08 is going to be one of those years.. The TMAX requires total removal of the Stock ECM, and is a total replacement. And if you did not do unmapped custom work, then the pre made maps are quite a nice fit. (99%...yes a few are having trouble but out of thousands in the market the odds are very good) and then you have a very nice simple control system that requires no tuner. Me personally I LIKE that independence.
Rhino
I'd like that too, but after seeing what Don is going through. NAH!!!!!
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Hope no one gets pixxed at me for asking this, 'cause I certainly am not trying to steer this thread off on a tangent, but this seems like as good a place as any to ask this. If the powers that be think this should be a separate thread, then so be it. It's just that after following this thread with bated breath, and reading EVERY post closely, I still want to know if there is ANYONE who has had either good or bad experiences with the TMAT on a COMPLETELY STOCK '07 SERK ---- and by completely stock I mean exactly that. Not with a different set of pipes or AC or cams, etc., etc.
I, like some others, thought that the TMAT was the way to go, and if not for the fact that my cash flow (and not having a laptop at present) wouldn't allow, I'd have put one of the suckers on by now. After reading this thread though, I'm almost glad I didn't. Kind of similar to the Rinehart TD situation but decidedly worse.
Again, is there anyone having problems with the TMAT on an otherwise COMPLETELY STOCK SERK?
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Me, not at all, and not at all with a pipe change, and not at all with a cam change.... I must be the lucky one according to this thread. Everyone has an opinion, and for 800 bucks, it was not an easy decision, and I always had that 30 days to return it, no questions asked, if I did not like it. I fell in love and the love affair continues. Other people have other opinions, but that is to be expected, my best advice is to try it, risk free, and make your own decisions. No matter what, yes I am very biased, and have had lots of experience with the TMAX in a lot of diff. bikes. I still suggest do your own research, and weigh everything properly. In the end, you will find the way. PS I also first had SERT for the heat, and no one could tune it. I skipped the PC route, since it did not do what I wanted it to do. And I could go on, but I won't. I am a bit tired of this thread as far as informational content. It's getting thin.
Rhino
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A couple of things to keep in mind.
You need to be careful of when dealing with Zippers and their 30 day return policy. You need to plan accordingly to the date. Don't buy it and shelf it "for later install", because if you do, and you need support, it will NOT come right away. It is not unheard of to have a 3-5 day time period between e-mails and phone calls with Zippers. So a "simple" issue can take weeks to resolve just due to slow communication. And, if you need the special attention of Danny Fitzmaurice, that can take weeks, and months. If you do have some tech problems, regardless of how things turn out, do not post unfavorably of Zippers. And please refrain from speaking your heart and mind. As Don, myself, and several others have found out, Zippers will just cut you off and leave you hanging.
The good news is that if your Zippers issues are tuning related, Rhino over here can help you out. He knows how to tweak, adjust, and tune. And he gets back to you a LOT faster than Zippers ever could.
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Thanx Rhino and Ironhorse;
I guess it comes down to literally a roll of the dice wrt the TMAT and my specific bike making good karma or not right off the bat -- i.e. provided the startup base map is a good match and I don't flub it up on install/initialization.
Speaking of the base map, Rhino, would you know what map no. would be recommended for my completely stock '07 SERK? I know the maps are listed in the download, but with dial-up internet, it will take me literally hours to do the complete download. If you know, fine, if not, no biggie.
Also, makes me kind of ticked at the MoCo for not marketing a bike which DID NOT require aftermarket or after sale ECM, etc. mods. Seems to me that if H-D were to step-up and do the 'right thing', they would recall EVERY 110" bike in whatever configuration (you could opt-out if desired) and go over them and make them right ON THEIR NICKEL. Whatever it took, be it a SERT with tune, new engine, etc.
A recall, so to speak.
Yeah, I guess I'm dreamin' some, but that's my 2 cents.
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Leoniru
It's ok to dream!
Just don't bet the farm on it.
:2vrolijk_21:
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Speaking of the base map, Rhino, would you know what map no. would be recommended for my completely stock '07 SERK?
I think that it's #379 (date : 04-03-2007)
Jacques
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Leoniru,
There are 2 maps for the 110" to look at #236 11/14/2006 and #379 4/03/2007 as posted above. The wording is exactly the same on both of them in the base map listing. I would try the #379 first though.
I am attaching for you the list converted from xml to xls (excel) so it can be posted here.
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Also, makes me kind of ticked at the MoCo for not marketing a bike which DID NOT require aftermarket or after sale ECM, etc. mods. Seems to me that if H-D were to step-up and do the 'right thing', they would recall EVERY 110" bike in whatever configuration (you could opt-out if desired) and go over them and make them right ON THEIR NICKEL. Whatever it took, be it a SERT with tune, new engine, etc.
A recall, so to speak.Yeah, I guess I'm dreamin' some, but that's my 2 cents.
leoniru,
Before you folks with the 110's start feeling like the lone stranger, I remember posting a very similar diatribe two years ago about my 103. The fact of the matter is that the MoCo has done a totally lousy job of incorporating EFI and meeting emissions regulations on all their bikes. Rather than take the lessons learned from the auto industry over the past 20 years and apply them to motorcycle EFI, H-D continues to go with the cheapest method that lets them just squeeze by. Then they make more money selling us parts like the SERT to make the f'n bike run properly, simultaneously thumbing their noses at us and the EPA. Personally, I'm hoping the EPA busts their azz big-time. Maybe once the government takes away the crutch of retuning the bikes after the sale, the MoCo will have to do this chit right if they want to continue selling their crap. :nixweiss:
JMHO - Jerry
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[quote ... Maybe once the government takes away the crutch of retuning the bikes after the sale, the MoCo will have to do this chit right if they want to continue selling their crap. [/quote]
Problem is, they'll be "tamper" proof (I hate that word) and just as marginal.
bc
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I was instructed in the case of two identical maps, to always use the newest update. Therefore the higher number 379 wins. I do not know which mods, or changes were made, but they said always minor. Go wth the latest.
Rhino
Leoniru,
There are 2 maps for the 110" to look at #236 11/14/2006 and #379 4/03/2007 as posted above. The wording is exactly the same on both of them in the base map listing. I would try the #379 first though.
I am attaching for you the list converted from xml to xls (excel) so it can be posted here.
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I'm not trying to steer this thread in a different direction, just a comment. I've decided with all the problems creeping up with the TMAT, that I don't want to get caught up in this mess. It might be a great unit someday, just not today! Now I have to decide between the SERT, and the PCIII, I have people around that can do either, but the SERT guys are dealers and I tend to try to stay away from the ones around here if possible.
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I'm not trying to steer this thread in a different direction, just a comment. I've decided with all the problems creeping up with the TMAT, that I don't want to get caught up in this mess. It might be a great unit someday, just not today! Now I have to decide between the SERT, and the PCIII, I have people around that can do either, but the SERT guys are dealers and I tend to try to stay away from the ones around here if possible.
Talon,
At this point, I believe your approach is the prudent and proper course. Unfortunately, Zippers and ThunderHeart have not met their advertised claims for either the plain T-Max or the TM-AT. Too many issues, too little support, and a totally lousy attitude toward customers who have the audacity to complain when the system does not perform as advertised. Dealing with them seems to come down to a crap shoot; as Dirty Harry so nicely put it, "do you feel lucky"?
I have been stumping for a wide band closed loop system since I joined this forum, since that is still the best long term tuning solution for those of us who don't own a personal dyno. I had really hoped the TM-AT would be the answer. Now I think anyone looking for that type of system may be better off looking at the Daytona Twin-Tech or one of the other systems becoming available.
Jerry
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Talon,
I would go with the SERT, because of the following reasons, one you arent lying to the ecm, you aren't piggy backing the system, there are no downloads / flashes for the 110's so that if you got in trouble you could ride it home without worrying about blowing it up.
The SERT has a deleanment table and the accelerator pump and does the rev extend without an extra purchase. It has the ability to keep you in closed loop mode if you want it or to abandon it wihtout using an external pice of hardware to eliminate the narrow bands.
Personally I have had problems on 2 occasions and it just isn't worth it to me, but that is also because I have good tuners in my area. There are others that have just the opposite opinion or dont have a good sert tuner nearby that they have had no issues with the PC.
It's not the tuner though that I have no confidence in its the hardware despite they sell so many, it's still a weak link and I need no additional possibilities to cause me to break down.
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Talon,
I would go with the SERT, because of the following reasons, one you arent lying to the ecm, you aren't piggy backing the system, there are no downloads / flashes for the 110's so that if you got in trouble you could ride it home without worrying about blowing it up.
The SERT has a deleanment table and the accelerator pump and does the rev extend without an extra purchase. It has the ability to keep you in closed loop mode if you want it or to abandon it wihtout using an external pice of hardware to eliminate the narrow bands.
Personally I have had problems on 2 occasions and it just isn't worth it to me, but that is also because I have good tuners in my area. There are others that have just the opposite opinion or dont have a good sert tuner nearby that they have had no issues with the PC.
It's not the tuner though that I have no confidence in its the hardware despite they sell so many, it's still a weak link and I need no additional possibilities to cause me to break down.
Ain't it the truth. They do a pretty good job of breaking down on their own without help from any add-ons.
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Hello RDJ,
Welcome to this site. Regarding your TMAX, it can be tuned, but you have to remember some basics. First, Zippers has created a lot of maps for a variety of combinations for you. What this does, is tells the Thundermax to do whatever neccessary to make your bike FOLLOW the fuel ratios, timing etc, that the map is set for. This is the automatic part. If you tell the bike to run 13.5 AFR, it will, perfectly.
But a question for you first, do the 2/1 fatcats have the 02 sensor bung, and are you running the 02 sensors, and, are you running in either open or closed loop??
A common misunderstanding is that the TMAX is fully automatic, meaning take any ol bike, and with any combination, just hook it up and it will run great. Well, this is not the case, but for some reason, some think it works this way. Simply, the pre-created maps are very close to what you bike likes, and then the TMAX automatically adjusts conditions so the map and bike work in harmony. But, you really need to have some type of a BASE map. Now, with your combination, there is not a pre created map, and Zippers recommended map as you said is # 275. Let me take a look. The 275 map is for the following: HCRESJSGEF010307.slk and kind of matches, with the exception of the cam you are running, the 37G. So, right away, the cam profile is very different than the stock that this map was designed for. So, you have to compensate for that. a little. The map choices in this 95" instance are either harley 203, redshift 557, or stock. The idea is to get as close as possible to the configuration you have #1, and then make minor adjustments to AFR and timing #2.
I personally think you have retarded timing far enough. I also think you need to increase your target AFR to 13.0 if not already, and also, if closed loop, richen up a bit at the top end throttle degrees from 2500rpm up. But first, let's simply see what you have, so....
Rather than guess at the answer from my question, I await your response, and will go from there.
Rhino
Thanks Rhino for the suggestion's here is what im going to try tomarrow, i'm using map #275 i am setting the 1st to the 11th block @ 13.021, 12 block @ 12.674 ,13 @12.384 ,14 to 23rd block @12.037 ,24th block @12.153, 25th@12.269, 26th@12.384, 27th@ 12.500, 28th@12.558,29th@12.674,30th@12.790.31st@12.905 ,and 32nd @13.021 also i'm going to put the timing the way Randy told me it will be -1 degree for block 9 which is 2,304 rpms, -2 from block 10 thru 14 thats 2,560 rpms to 3,584 rpms and -1 @ 3,840 rpms thats block 15.......is 13.021 close to 13.0 i really doin't no how to read these number's......This is the only way i no how to explain this..as u can see i am using the closed loop ..with the sensors in the fatcats...it run's great it just those pings @ 3000 rpms another thing i see people on here have a hard time getting reply's to there emails to zipper's i have emailed them like 3 times and it never takes more then 24 hours for them to respond 2 times from a Randy Dull and 1 from Andy.......Rhino thanks again for taking the time, I believe that this will work i already no it helped with the starting when turning it off for like a minute or 2 then starting. Right no i'm getting in the high 40's for miles per gallon
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Hey Bro........and welcome to CVO Harley!! I'm a second time PCIIIUSB owner. I've run a SERT before, and after dealing with that, the PC is much easier. Remember, the SERT's second middle name is RACE.........and it's map, like the PC is a spreadsheet...........but each cell has to be tuned individuallly.........and that takes time........and unless you're racing.......it isn't worth it. Stick with the PC. It's good, its fast, and in the hands of a competent tuner, there isn't much better than a PC. Again, welcome aboard!
I'm sure the Pc would of worked for me if i could of found a competent tuner when i had the build done i had it tuned they only tuned it to 3,500 rpms till i had it broke in that was $180.00 he could"nt get the pinging out @ 3000 rpms but i doint no how hard he tried. Ok after i had like 1,200 miles on it i took it to a different place about 2 hours from me that was $300.00 i was there he worked on it for 4 hours counting cool off times when i rode it home i stopped and got gas holly crap i thought it was going to blow up i called him from gas station he tell's me he could'nt get the pinging out @ 3000 rpms same as the other guy told me when i got home i drained the gas and got some more took it for a ride it wasn't even close as bad as it was so the gas must of been bad but i still got about 3 rattles @ 3000 rpms he try's to get me to buy the sert but would not garantee he could get it out..So this is the reason i went with the Tmax i was into the pc for $287.00 the 2 tunes for 480.00 iwas done with it....... The Tmax did help with my hot starts that was a big plus i'm sure i will get this all worked out i thought when i got this system it was a plug and play program ....also i have 2 exhaust systems i want to use i also have the Rinehart true duall's and fatcats 2 into 1
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Keep us posted on the result. You know yu could leave the laptop in the back, and run the monitoring mode and save it as a file. Capture a 5 mile run, try to get through the rpm ranges and at least 4th gear. Then, you could email it to me and I can pretty much see whats going on to tweak it for you. Look in the book to see how to save the run, and then email it.
Rhino
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Some new information to on the red bike. Yesterday morning the bike went to a SERT tuner with a good reputation and lots of experience in Kansas City. After speaking with him I'm comfortable with his skills.
To quickly summarize the engine in the red bike is a stock bottom end topped off with those components from Zippers that constitute their "103 Muscle Kit." In other words the "package" is just that, a package designed and intended to work together and run successfully in combination. Along with the "kit" was Zippers' Thundermax ECM with the autotuning addition.
In cool weather the bike ran fan. For comparison's sake the dyno numbers on it were even better than expected reporting at 119/119 with plenty of it in the driving range. The combination didn't work in warmer weather though. "Warmer" being anything much above 80 degrees F.
Not knowing whether the problem was hardware or software (tuning) tuning was the easiest thing to try first. Spent a lot of time going through all the obvious steps myself. Nothing ever really defeated the detonation issues presenting in the motor. Detonation issues bad enough that the bike was not safe to ride on hot days without worrying about damage.
After a few weeks of generally well informed self-effort attempts were made to get support from the supplier; Zippers. Initially there wasn't any response. That dragged on for about a month. That lack of response had been part of dealing with company previously. So it was not completely unexpected. After this 3 1/2 to 4 week stretch efforts were made here to get a response from them. Finally after being either annoying or obnoxious enough to force a response from them some efforts were made.
I was told it was a tuning problem. I was told it could be corrected. Attempts at correction didn't help it. I was told we'd have to go through a potentially long series of "surgical" steps to further define the problem.
This was all responding to an engine top end rebuild that was done with very specific instructions being given that I wanted only to make most efficient use of what was there to begin with. Nothing radical, nothing extreme, don't want to fight any driveability issues, nothing that would impact on overall reliability, just want to be able to get on it and ride, no need for compression releases, etc etc etc. All those things were discussed more than once. IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE A "BIG" MOTOR WITH TUNING ISSUES OF ANY KIND. The goal was just to make what was there to begin with a little better. That's it.
On top of that hardware build the autotuning Thundermax was promised as being able to tune itself (within a relatively wide range). The system would be able to dial itself in to its own environment and adjust for some level of hardware changes made later.
(continued)
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The pace of the support efforts pushed up against what was then a travel deadline. It was all too likely that any continued remote tuning efforts could not guarantee being successful prior to departure. The autotuning system simply wasn't able to compensate for the environment it was working in. Since initial support efforts had taken so long to acquire any support effort now was pushing the travel deadline.
At this point I offered what seemed a very fair Plan B. To meet the travel deadline I'd get the bike retuned with a SERT or Power Commander on my own. This would relieve any time pressure working with the Thundermax and other Zippers parts. I offered to then simply let them have the bike to prove its tune sometime later this summer. If it would all work together as they'd promised this was the simple, easy and effective way to make it so. It would also probably take less company man hours doing one tune than in working back and forth the several steps they'd have me work through trying to diagnose and retune remotely via their instruction and my efforts.
To this there was simply no response. As fair as allowing them the opportunity to make good on their product promises might seem they simply didn't respond. Might have been an error in communication. So asked again. The silence had once again become deafening.
The bike was tuned yesterday. All blame does not rest with the Thundermax after all. Granted, it does not adjust across a wide enough range to make this bike rideable (promises to the contrary notwithstanding). But that's at least partly because the hardware combination also does not work well together.
The bike is now rideable. It goes down the road without pinging on a 90 degree day. I found that out when it got home last night. To say, however, that it runs ok is not to say that it runs as it should.
The bike had the 575 cams in before the work that installed the "103 Muscle Kit." A competent tuner, who voiced significant complaint about the "picky, kwerky" cams he was tuning spent about 7 hours time making the bike rideable. In so doing he had to dial it down to a point where its output is now significantly less than it was with just the 575 cams. In fact it nearly mirrors what it was when it was just a bone stock 103 that had had air cleaner and pipes done.
So a nearly 20% hit to make it rideable. It is at least safely rideable now. Compared to an 88" it runs good. Compared to what it should be it's pretty sorry. One might ask why all the extra expense and time were done to have Zippers rebuild the heads to their own specs, supply a throttle body and intake, supply pistons and new cams and supply a new ignition system that would in the end only make the bike run worse than it did to begin with? I might ask that too. But Zippers doesn't really answer a lot of questions.
At least the machine is rideable now. That is a lot better than nothing. Figuring out how to correct this particular significant mistake on my part will likely be a winter project. I am relatively sure there is one source I'll not be working with for support and information. Zippers doesn't really answer a lot of questions.
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Hello TL,
I read your post a few times to make sure I was understanding it. I did pick a few things and posted them below. This now has be quite bewildered.
1. The hardware combination was put together after hundreds of testing hours. It works fine on literally hundreds of bikes.
2. You said it does not adjust over a wide enough range, however we get back to the automation part. It DOES adjust against the AFR's and timing exactly as it was set. I am a little fuzzy with that comment because it requires the proper base map to begin with.
3. It will dial in its own environment from high to low temps, and high and low altitudes. I think again, that the map you were using needs to be looked at to make sure it was not inadvertently changed. This has happened, and it requires a simple fix on the original map. Sometimes a save is made, without renaming. If that happens, the original paramenter will be distorted.
So, there were two things that needed to be done. One, was to make sure you erased the original map from the database completely, and then internet connect back to Zippers and re-download that original map that is recommended.
The next easiest thing was to hook up the laptop, and select monitoring. And then ride a few miles recording over a variety of ranges, specifically the areas where pinging. This does constitute some work on your part, but then, you could email that saved monitored map, and changes could easily be done from there. A modified map, if required, would be sent back email with a special moniker, along with the base map, and you could load it back in. To do this, you need to open the Thunder software, and load it in from the email attachment.
In any event, sorry you have had so much trouble and lack of response from Zippers. Knowing they are sometimes hard to get in touch with, I have had to self learn most of it. I did get the background software which definately help analyze most any issue. If you have a monitoring file, go ahead and send it my way and I will take a look.
planeseller@bellsouth.net
Rhino
"Granted, it does not adjust across a wide enough range to make this bike rideable (promises to the contrary notwithstanding). But that's at least partly because the hardware combination also does not work well together.
On top of that hardware build the autotuning Thundermax was promised as being able to tune itself (within a relatively wide range). The system would be able to dial itself in to its own environment and adjust for some level of hardware changes made later.
The autotuning system simply wasn't able to compensate for the environment it was working in. "
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Well, I got my bike delivered home yesterday. Wanted it here rather than at the dealers while we wait for the new motor. I guess we won't ever find out what the problem was, as the dealers won't strip it. I really wish I had a little fibre endoscope to shove in the plug hole though!
Connected my laptop up to the TMAT, to look at the "warranty data" - wanted to see what the head temp had got up to. As before, there are plainly meaningless corrupt figures in the rev chart. It seems to think I've run for nearly 46 years at 4800 rpm. :nixweiss: Also, when you save the log to a file, it fails to save the head temps, so I did a screen dump for both sets of figures, and here they are for the delectation of you fine gents:
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Now I think those are WAY too hot - but of course I don't know how reliable the figures are..... Most of the high temps would be in start/stop traffic.
And the rev chart:
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I should also point out that despite running for 46 years, the engine has never been near the rev limit, although the chart claims it has!
Jim
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Rhino, you've gone out of your way to offer a lot of advice. Things like:
Maybe you should stick to computers.
and everyone elses ultimately runs well after a tweak if at all, yours is a sticky point.
And I have taken it upon myself to be a samaritan for the company,
That is overstated, dont you have AARP?
I think you should be happy they are even talking with you at all. You and your little group of followers having the same type of problem, well, that don't compute either.
DuH!
You talk to much and spew big words,
Hope you took pictures.
Now once again we're concerned with:
1. The hardware combination was put together after hundreds of testing hours. It works fine on literally hundreds of bikes.
2. You said it does not adjust over a wide enough range, however we get back to the automation part. It DOES adjust against the AFR's and timing exactly as it was set. I am a little fuzzy with that comment because it requires the proper base map to begin with.
3. It will dial in its own environment from high to low temps, and high and low altitudes. I think again, that the map you were using needs to be looked at to make sure it was not inadvertently changed.
So, there were two things that needed to be done.
Re: your comment on the map. Honest to god man. The right freaking map was loaded. The data links were functional. Live data was witnessed. Installation was good. Assume me to be an idiot if you must. But quit calling me an idiot to my face. It gets old. I won't insinuate you're an insecure schmuck overly worried about some third party company so for some reason you'll continue feeling good about your own stuff if you'll quit suggesting I'm an air headed blonde that can't shift straight or load a damned computer file.
Not not only was it loaded, verified, and reloaded and reverified more than once initially. Fitzmaurice sent the revised map that was loaded in isolation from the larger library. Fitzmaurice was satisfied it was the right map. That should be good enough.
1) The hardware combination may or may not have hundreds of hours of testing and support behind it. Doesn't matter and I don't care. I wasn't there and I don't know (were you?). Simple fact is in this installation it is a problem. It wouldn't run correctly when operated by the Thundermax. That the thundermax couldn't get even to a basically rideable state still means the Thundermax couldn't get it running. A pretty good SERT tuning effort with the stock ECM reinstalled does a good job of finishing isolating hardware questions from software questions. With either ignition system the engine has issues. Real issues. The SERT tuner's efforts could do a better job of massaging and managing those issues than could the Thundermax. Apparently man is better than machine. The issues are there nonetheless.
Now, before you ask, yes, neither piston is installed upside down. The heads are oriented correctly. The cams were in fact installed correctly, etc etc etc. The tuner who spent several hours on the dyno with it yesterday said it behaved like a cam far more radical than it is supposed to be generating cylinder pressures greater than should be expected. Since that description comes from hands on experience and jives with how the bike has behaved for me I can't and don't discount it.
I do not know for certain what the problem is. I know there is a problem. I know the problem is isolated from the ignition system (because I've paid to find out and confirm that fact). That only leaves the hardware package. Your love for Zippers notwithstanding they were difficult to work with in my experience. Even early on.
As for your "samaritan" status with them; I was a moderator when they were setup as a vendor here. I made the contact with Kitzmiller to get him that status and had several conversations with him at that time. At the time Kitzmiller was worried about one thing more than any other. There were "samaritans" here who felt like they just had to assist the company.
It was help they didn't really need or appreciate and certainly didn't sanction. So you'll have to forgive me if when my questions and issues are with the company that took my money I choose to be to some degree less concerned with a civilian to the effort who thinks the company isn't robust enough to choose their own path. But, then again, I only talk too much and spew big words supported by the intellect to be destined for the AARP. With samaritans treating consumers like that the company needs even more help then I think it does.
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I should also point out that despite running for 46 years, the engine has never been near the rev limit, although the chart claims it has!
Jim
Jim, despite where all that logging is done you should be comforted by one thing. It absolutely positively wasn't a problem with any components supplied by Zippers. Or if they did play any part in it at all it was due to their installation or the computer you used to load the file or read the data.
Jim, all the nonsense aside, has the company or the dealership given you any idea how long you'll be down this time?
Good luck,
Don
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Ya know there Donny, I think you just don't really get it. No matter how much you blather on, and how much you think people are picking on you, not once did you ever respond with a result to me, on any of the readings I had been requesting. Just even now, you remarks are very strange. You would rather make note of all the chit, rather than approach the problem. Your highlights are very entertaining but really off point. Your most recent quote cut off the important part. Same as always, you you you.
My request apparently was completed regarding a potential corrupted map, so, I'll give you that one.
"Not not only was it loaded, verified, and reloaded and reverified more than once initially. Fitzmaurice sent the revised map that was loaded in isolation from the larger library. Fitzmaurice was satisfied it was the right map. That should be good enough."
But clearly it's not good enough now, is it? Everything is not just B & W.
"The next easiest thing was to hook up the laptop, and select monitoring. And then ride a few miles recording over a variety of ranges, specifically the areas where pinging. This does constitute some work on your part, but then, you could email that saved monitored map, and changes could easily be done from there. A modified map, if required, would be sent back email with a special moniker, along with the base map, and you could load it back in. To do this, you need to open the Thunder software, and load it in from the email attachment."
But you never did this with me, or Zippers. And on earlier requests, you always seemed to have some excuse of being too busy. So when you get your priorities figured out, and really want to get a good running bike, follow some advice rather than dishing your chit out all over the place. And find a good tuner, which clearly, your post says you did not find, because you now have sacrificed torque and HP.
"Re: your comment on the map. Honest to god man. The right freaking map was loaded. The data links were functional. Live data was witnessed."
Again, you noted; live data was witnessed. WTF is that supposed to mean. Did it get into the right hands, I mean Zippers never saw it, so what does that mean.
And as far as a relationship with a variety of manufacturers and vendors, I like it. I learn, I learn some more. If I like a product, and find it is beneficial, I give advice, and recommendations. So, why the F*#@k am I telling you this. Must be because of all my insecurities you ass.
You may be the wonderboy of computers and Harleys, and eloquent letter writing skills, but what can I say, you still ain't got it right and you are still fighting everyone and everything with words that are not covering the point of it all. As others have, I finally give up on not so nice of a note.
Rhino
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Now, before you ask, yes, neither piston is installed upside down. The heads are oriented correctly. The cams were in fact installed correctly, etc etc etc. The tuner who spent several hours on the dyno with it yesterday said it behaved like a cam far more radical than it is supposed to be generating cylinder pressures greater than should be expected. Since that description comes from hands on experience and jives with how the bike has behaved for me I can't and don't discount it.
Don,
Did your SERT tuner measure your static cranking pressure, and if so, what was the result? Your symptoms sounded like they could have been attributed to high static compression pressures, but one could not rule out tuning until your recent change to SERT. My next step would be to check cam timing. An intake cam installed with too much advance will decrease duration and cause increased static pressures leading to detonation issues. The higher pressures also explain your earlier 119/119 performance numbers. If cam timing is ruled out, compression related hardware (pistons, deck height, combustion chamber size, cam measurements, etc...) will be the next logical diagnostic step. Unfortunately that will require a top end tear down, and as you mentioned is best left for the winter. Good luck with it.
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Don,
Did your SERT tuner measure your static cranking pressure, and if so, what was the result? Your symptoms sounded like they could have been attributed to high static compression pressures, but one could not rule out tuning until your recent change to SERT. My next step would be to check cam timing. An intake cam installed with too much advance will decrease duration and cause increased static pressures leading to detonation issues. The higher pressures also explain your earlier 119/119 performance numbers. If cam timing is ruled out, compression related hardware (pistons, deck height, combustion chamber size, cam measurements, etc...) will be the next logical diagnostic step. Unfortunately that will require a top end tear down, and as you mentioned is best left for the winter. Good luck with it.
HDFR, the only answer I know right now is "yes because I was told so." The bike was there most of the time and I wasn't. Tending to some health issues with my mom. Tuner is going to write up notes above and beyond our phone conversation and get them to me first of the week.
Your thoughts echo mine pretty much exactly though. Doing much further diagnostic will require some greater or lesser amount of tear down either on the side or the top. Other things going on now and, priorities being what they are, I'm just going to choose not to mind it being a winter project to look a lot deeper. Just not a big deal right now.
I have at least isolated one system from the other. In and of itself that is progress. So now it'll just be baby steps until I get time to look deeper.
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Rhino, you've gone out of your way to offer a lot of advice. Things like:
.......
Ya know there Donny, I think you just don't really get it. No matter how much you blather on, and how much you think people are picking on you, not once did you ever respond with a result to me, on any of the readings I had been requesting. ..........
Gentlemen I think it's about time to let this go.
Don has problems w/Zippers not w/you Rhino even though you've offered your assistance you can't make someone accept it. Not saying that was the case just saying all you can do is offer it, and it is up to the individual to accept or respond w/the information you are requesting. If they don't then it comes a time when you just have to accept that your assistance is not wanted/needed and walk away.
Continuing this thread in the manner like the two posts I've quoted will get the thread locked down. If you two need to air your differences please take it to PM's. Thanks.
Edited To Add: Thread is now locked.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman: